Dark Matter May Be Older Than The Big Bang, Study Suggests

Chittagong

Gold Member
Jun 8, 2004
18,307
1,913
2,045
The study, published August 7 in Physical Review Letters, presents a new idea of how dark matter was born and how to identify it with astronomical observations.

“The study revealed a new connection between particle physics and astronomy. If dark matter consists of new particles that were born before the Big Bang, they affect the way galaxies are distributed in the sky in a unique way. This connection may be used to reveal their identity and make conclusions about the times before the Big Bang too,” says Tommi Tenkanen, a postdoctoral fellow in Physics and Astronomy at the Johns Hopkins University and the study’s author.
Using a new, simple mathematical framework, the study shows that dark matter may have been produced before the Big Bang during an era known as the cosmic inflation when space was expanding very rapidly. The rapid expansion is believed to lead to copious production of certain types of particles called scalars. So far, only one scalar particle has been discovered, the famous Higgs boson.
The new study also suggests a way to test the origin of dark matter by observing the signatures dark matter leaves on the distribution of matter in the universe.

 

DragoonKain

Member
Nov 13, 2013
2,160
1,676
805
I've always liked and stuck with the theory that we've had an endless cycle of universes that have gone on forever. They expand and expand for billions if not trillions of years and then eventually retract(The Big Crunch). And then once all that matter reaches one infinitely dense point it will explode again in another Big Bang and start all over.
 
Last edited:
Jan 25, 2018
4,968
6,626
640
30
Southeastern USA
I've always liked and stuck with the theory that we've had an endless cycle of universes that have gone on forever. They expand and expand for billions if not trillions of years and then eventually retract(The Big Crunch). And then once all that matter reaches one infinitely dense point it will explode again in another Big Bang and start all over.
Like a cosmic heartbeat, but when did this process start?

The universe is such a strange place, don't tell me that concepts like God, the soul and life after death are impossible, there's still so much we don't understand.
 

DragoonKain

Member
Nov 13, 2013
2,160
1,676
805
Like a cosmic heartbeat, but when did this process start?

The universe is such a strange place, don't tell me that concepts like God, the soul and life after death are impossible, there's still so much we don't understand.
I think because of what we've come to know and understand in the macro world and on earth, we think everything needs an origin point, but I don't think it necessarily does. Maybe the universe had no origin point. It maybe went on and on forever. Out there in the universe, especially in the quantum world, things work in ways we can't comprehend, like a particle being in 2 places at the same time.
 

John Day

Gold Member
Jan 12, 2018
572
405
485
37
San Juan, PR
I think because of what we've come to know and understand in the macro world and on earth, we think everything needs an origin point, but I don't think it necessarily does. Maybe the universe had no origin point. It maybe went on and on forever. Out there in the universe, especially in the quantum world, things work in ways we can't comprehend, like a particle being in 2 places at the same time.
I can subscribe to this line of thought. Not everything seems to be explainable in our terms of understanding.

Amazing.
 

#Phonepunk#

Member
Sep 4, 2018
6,373
8,189
625
yayaya Dark Matter lol

very glad i took astronomy class in school. it was very cool for a number of reasons, and i learned a lot, but i also learned that scientists know jack shit about the physical make up of the universe, and they have scribbled in the lines in order to fudge things all over the place.

pop science is funny. it's a bit like science fiction. all theoretical loopholes and shit nobody has ever seen in their lives. it's so abstract.

this is partly why i do more reading of old philosophy and theology, i find the legendary & mythical concepts of cosmology more palatable, more poetic. more accurately descriptive of being in The Universe.
 
Last edited:

Pagusas

Member
Jun 9, 2006
11,174
1,457
1,400
Prosper, Tx
I wonder if this means that the entire mass of the universe is fixed, and always has been, and is 100% recycled every time a Big Crunch happens, then a new roll of the dice happens with a Big Bang, redistributing it in all new ways.

That would make me feel better about death then honestly, as at some point, all the molecules that arrange exactly perfectly to make me will eventually make me again. It just might take a few hundred trillion years between each dice roll for my number to come up again.
 
Last edited:

hariseldon

Gold Member
Aug 22, 2018
3,210
5,103
655
Like a cosmic heartbeat, but when did this process start?

The universe is such a strange place, don't tell me that concepts like God, the soul and life after death are impossible, there's still so much we don't understand.
Funny thing - I've spent much of my life as a devout atheist, but the weirdness of quantum physics and time spent reading philosophy has rather forced me to become more agnostic erring on the side that there's something out there.
 

infinitys_7th

Gold Member
Oct 1, 2006
4,903
5,254
1,420
Interesting. Going along with this:


you could infer that another universe existed before ours was created, and that some sort of communication is going on between the two.
 

DunDunDunpachi

Patient MembeR
Apr 18, 2018
14,212
26,728
1,260
USA
dunpachi.com
Kicking the can down the road, as usual.

"It existed before the Big Bang"

Wait, I thought Big Bang was hashtag cancelled by 'scientific consensus' because it suggests a causal universe?

"Yeah well because dark matter existed before time existed, technically it can fix these other holes we can't explain. Infinite, uncaused universe. Pluto is a planet!".
 

#Phonepunk#

Member
Sep 4, 2018
6,373
8,189
625
in Genesis God created the heavens and the earth before creating light. often translated as "formless void", Tohu wa Bohu has long been a point of discussion. indeed like many scientists nowadays, there was controversy & discussion over whether matter precedes creation or not.


funny to see how this argument that is thousands of years old continues.
 

Thurible

Formerly 'CatholicGamerGuy'
Aug 15, 2018
1,264
1,322
610
I've always liked and stuck with the theory that we've had an endless cycle of universes that have gone on forever. They expand and expand for billions if not trillions of years and then eventually retract(The Big Crunch). And then once all that matter reaches one infinitely dense point it will explode again in another Big Bang and start all over.
I think the Hindus believe that the universe exists in a cycle of infinite death and rebirth, and that there were many universes before this one and there will be ones after the current one ends.

Personally, I think the idea of a cyclical universe is a bunch of hooey. Everything has an origin, and everything has an end. The laws of causality doesn't allow the world to go on and on forever.

whats dark matter though
Dark matter is a very much misunderstood and unknown form of matter that comprises most of the universe. From what I understand, many scientists believe that dark matter is a substance that is affecting the current structure of the universe, as the way things are moving should not happen in it's current rate.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DunDunDunpachi

kingbean

Gold Member
Jun 27, 2016
1,296
1,132
645
I'm not surprised, but it kinda blows my idea out of the water on some stuff.

I always just assumed the universe was only as big as whats inside of it. Meaning that when there is no more matter the universe just stops until matter breaches that point and it continues to expand.
But that's just a theory, a retarded theory.
 

Super Mario

Member
Nov 12, 2016
1,227
1,409
415
I love science. "You can't argue this, it's proven by science" Until science changes its theory. NOW we have the right info.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TheGreatYosh

Tesseract

Crushed by Thanos
Dec 7, 2008
37,886
11,871
1,380
I love science. "You can't argue this, it's proven by science" Until science changes its theory. NOW we have the right info.
it's ever increasing levels of precision and accuracy with some shifting approximation depending on the resolution

things haven't really been thrown out since newton
 
  • Like
Reactions: slugbahr

DunDunDunpachi

Patient MembeR
Apr 18, 2018
14,212
26,728
1,260
USA
dunpachi.com
it's ever increasing levels of precision and accuracy with some shifting approximation depending on the resolution

things haven't really been thrown out since newton
This framing sounds religious in nature. "The Bible isn't false, we just misinterpreted its message".

Okay, fair enough, but it would help if the scientific community was more willing to apply skepticism to its own conclusions in the meanwhile, then, in order to demonstrate this attitude. Instead, those who doubt scientific consensus are met with aggressive browbeating and arrogance.
 

Tesseract

Crushed by Thanos
Dec 7, 2008
37,886
11,871
1,380
This framing sounds religious in nature. "The Bible isn't false, we just misinterpreted its message".

Okay, fair enough, but it would help if the scientific community was more willing to apply skepticism to its own conclusions in the meanwhile, then, in order to demonstrate this attitude. Instead, those who doubt scientific consensus are met with aggressive browbeating and arrogance.
true
 
  • Like
Reactions: Airola

MetalAlien

Formerly 'MetalAlien'
Mar 6, 2005
9,807
2,216
1,585
This framing sounds religious in nature. "The Bible isn't false, we just misinterpreted its message".

Okay, fair enough, but it would help if the scientific community was more willing to apply skepticism to its own conclusions in the meanwhile, then, in order to demonstrate this attitude. Instead, those who doubt scientific consensus are met with aggressive browbeating and arrogance.
An Ant is walking across the back of an Elephant asks the Elephant "What are you?" The Elephant tells the Ant and the Ant laughs and says "Fine if you want to make jokes i'll find out for myself!".
 
  • Thoughtful
Reactions: Wimbledon

Trogdor1123

Member
Mar 2, 2012
6,395
587
700
I did some reading on this and it's an interesting idea with a great deal of implications. My biggest issue is that it would mean that dark matter is outside of space time but still impacts it which makes no sense.

I've always liked and stuck with the theory that we've had an endless cycle of universes that have gone on forever. They expand and expand for billions if not trillions of years and then eventually retract(The Big Crunch). And then once all that matter reaches one infinitely dense point it will explode again in another Big Bang and start all over.
It's nice to want that but the math doesn't back it at all. More likely is the black hole approach to universe creation. Even that is pretty iffy. The something from nothing is the more likely option...
 

Ornlu

Member
Oct 31, 2018
815
825
360
I did some reading on this and it's an interesting idea with a great deal of implications. My biggest issue is that it would mean that dark matter is outside of space time but still impacts it which makes no sense.


It's nice to want that but the math doesn't back it at all. More likely is the black hole approach to universe creation. Even that is pretty iffy. The something from nothing is the more likely option...
Well, "the math" changes every decade or so, and a new theory is debated and put forth.
 

Trogdor1123

Member
Mar 2, 2012
6,395
587
700
Well, "the math" changes every decade or so, and a new theory is debated and put forth.
Except heat death hasn't really been disproven since inception and unless entropy can be reversed (in nature on a mass scale) it won't happen. This is one of the most tested theories out there. The CMB would have to be wrong... It's not.
 
  • Like
Reactions: John Day

Aurelian

my friends call me "Cunty"
Feb 22, 2009
1,127
887
975
Ottawa, Canada
This framing sounds religious in nature. "The Bible isn't false, we just misinterpreted its message".

Okay, fair enough, but it would help if the scientific community was more willing to apply skepticism to its own conclusions in the meanwhile, then, in order to demonstrate this attitude. Instead, those who doubt scientific consensus are met with aggressive browbeating and arrogance.
Here's the thing: if you're going to challenge the scientific consensus, you have to back it up with solid evidence. And in many cases, those challenging the consensus don't have sufficient evidence, just strong convictions or a desire to seed doubt.

For example, climate science deniers. Yeah, you can pretend there's no human impact on the climate, but the scientific consensus says otherwise because that's where the evidence is. Deniers would have to provide evidence that survives rigorous scrutiny, and so far they haven't.
 

Ornlu

Member
Oct 31, 2018
815
825
360
Except heat death hasn't really been disproven since inception and unless entropy can be reversed (in nature on a mass scale) it won't happen. This is one of the most tested theories out there. The CMB would have to be wrong... It's not.
If there were a "Crunch" all matter and energy would be compressed to an unmeasurably dense point once again, correct? Thus creating a new "Bang", with the balance sheet remaining the same.

I was more referring to the ever-changing ideas regarding the nature of the universe and its' creation. First there was no dark matter; then there was, etc. In a decade we will more than likely have new working theories that are completely different than what is considered canon now.
 

DunDunDunpachi

Patient MembeR
Apr 18, 2018
14,212
26,728
1,260
USA
dunpachi.com
Here's the thing: if you're going to challenge the scientific consensus, you have to back it up with solid evidence.
Ehhh, depends. The scientific community frequently flees behind 'scientific consensus' prematurely. Obviously, any challenges to the assertions would need to be backed up by solid evidence. I'm not arguing against that.

My quote was in response to tesseract responding to Super Mario, if you need more context.
 

Trogdor1123

Member
Mar 2, 2012
6,395
587
700
If there were a "Crunch" all matter and energy would be compressed to an unmeasurably dense point once again, correct? Thus creating a new "Bang", with the balance sheet remaining the same.

I was more referring to the ever-changing ideas regarding the nature of the universe and its' creation. First there was no dark matter; then there was, etc. In a decade we will more than likely have new working theories that are completely different than what is considered canon now.
Oh, then I totally agree. I like the idea of a big crunch too. Always seemed more elegant.

One idea that is somewhat similar to the one you are suggesting revolves around super massive black holes. There was a paper a few years back that discussed a black holes ability to actually "tear" itself loose from space time entirely and in essence create its own universe within the singularity. Stephan hawking spoke to it in one of his books I think but I don't recall his position on it. It's an interesting idea as a singularity starts to deal with infinite amounts in singular one dimensional points.

Essentially, a finite amount of stuff creates an infinite amount. I tried to get through the math in my time in universitybut it was beyond me.
 

Mihos

Gold Member
May 10, 2009
6,255
1,483
1,105
steamcommunity.com
I did some reading on this and it's an interesting idea with a great deal of implications. My biggest issue is that it would mean that dark matter is outside of space time but still impacts it which makes no sense.

Well, if you follow Lisa Randall's work. That is basically how her theory explains why gravity is so weak.
 
Last edited:

Ornlu

Member
Oct 31, 2018
815
825
360
Oh, then I totally agree. I like the idea of a big crunch too. Always seemed more elegant.

One idea that is somewhat similar to the one you are suggesting revolves around super massive black holes. There was a paper a few years back that discussed a black holes ability to actually "tear" itself loose from space time entirely and in essence create its own universe within the singularity. Stephan hawking spoke to it in one of his books I think but I don't recall his position on it. It's an interesting idea as a singularity starts to deal with infinite amounts in singular one dimensional points.

Essentially, a finite amount of stuff creates an infinite amount. I tried to get through the math in my time in universitybut it was beyond me.
Would that rely on a black hole reaching some sort of critical mass? So we would need to observe one disappearing suddenly to lend credence to the theory, correct? It's a very interesting theory.

I'm definitely not an expert; just someone interested in space, and science in general. One trend that is understandable but annoys me is when the "new hotness" comes out, and everyone seems to scramble all over themselves to contort their own pet theories and projects to fit within. Black holes were all the rage for a while, then string theory got hot and suddenly every previously unexplained phenomena was "possibly explained by string theory!".
 

DragoonKain

Member
Nov 13, 2013
2,160
1,676
805
I did some reading on this and it's an interesting idea with a great deal of implications. My biggest issue is that it would mean that dark matter is outside of space time but still impacts it which makes no sense.


It's nice to want that but the math doesn't back it at all. More likely is the black hole approach to universe creation. Even that is pretty iffy. The something from nothing is the more likely option...
Well I guess technically, something always had to exist, right?

I mean, if something has to come from something, then logically that doesn't even work because then you could just trace it back to infinity. At some point something had to always exist to start the process.

That's kinda why people believe in a god. Something had to start it all. But then how did god get there? So something had to always kinda be there already at the beginning.
 

Mihos

Gold Member
May 10, 2009
6,255
1,483
1,105
steamcommunity.com
Dark matter isnt even proven to exist, except for calculations on paper, and they are already suggesting it’s older than the universe. Lol
Technically, you could say the same thing about black holes.

And be fair.... scientist , especially physicist, rarely if ever 'prove' something, They just show increasingly more supporting evidence for a theory or hypothesis. You won't even pin a physicist down on whether an electron 'exists'... they will just say it is 'consistent with the prevailing theory'

It's the news agencies that get fantastical on the claims.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Duallusion

Trogdor1123

Member
Mar 2, 2012
6,395
587
700
Well I guess technically, something always had to exist, right?

I mean, if something has to come from something, then logically that doesn't even work because then you could just trace it back to infinity. At some point something had to always exist to start the process.

That's kinda why people believe in a god. Something had to start it all. But then how did god get there? So something had to always kinda be there already at the beginning.
I believe what you are referring to as the "first mover".

It may not be needed it turns out and no, something didn't always have to exist according to some theories (I personally don't buy this theory but it's got a few decent proofs ). It's very hard to explain and even more difficult to understand (which may be why I don't like it) as there is literally a very good chance that everything came from absolutely nothing. Literally nothing. Not empty space, a literal absence of space, time, material, anything. It's hard to process as it it makes no sense to the way humans think and process information. It's hard to even imagine the big bang in the way some envision it. It wasn't even an explosion, it was the literal beginning of space and time.
It's staggering. physics is fun!
 

Trogdor1123

Member
Mar 2, 2012
6,395
587
700
Dark matter isnt even proven to exist, except for calculations on paper, and they are already suggesting it’s older than the universe. Lol
No, dark matter has never been directly observed. These are very different. It has been measured with terrific accuracy.

Your logic is about as sound as saying because you have never seen a million dollars in person that it doesn't exist...
 

Kamina

Golden Boy
Jun 2, 2013
4,566
1,801
750
33
Austria
No, dark matter has never been directly observed. These are very different. It has been measured with terrific accuracy.

Your logic is about as sound as saying because you have never seen a million dollars in person that it doesn't exist...
They measured something and dubbed it dark matter. All we know its “something”.

Also your comparison is ridiculous.
Fuck, why do some people always have to exaggerate when they want to make a point.
 
Last edited: