I know and love that feel.
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Dark Souls 2 changes discussed, focus on removing tedium & backtracking [Fact Sheet]
- Thread starter Nirolak
- Start date
I know and love that feel.
Backtracking is cool if it has strategic meaning.
For example playing REbirth the other day, backtracking is significant in that game due to the scarcity of ammo, you're constantly looking at the map trying to remember which room or corridor has zombies still left in it, which has Hunters, which can get you where you want faster, which has one way doors etc etc.
Backtracking in a Resident Evil (or Silent Hill) game make sense.
In Dark Souls it makes sense just at the very beginning, Undead Burg poses ZERO risk, or really little, after you finish Lower Undead Burg, for example, so going back through it is not challenging or engaging if you already know the place, in the same way that it is in a Resident Evil 1.
They already have that. Homeward bone I think it was called?
Undead Burg poses zero risk even the first time
KennyLinder
Member
I guess he means New Londo Ruins, but really there are two incredibly close by (next to elevator at Dark Root Basin and Firelink).
My major annoyance regarding bonfires was the lack of teleport options at certain ones, but they did at least address that with the patch.
We get it. You're a badass.
Thanks.
AlimNassor
Banned
The first half? Yeah. The second after the bonfire? hell no. I died a dozen times just trying to reach the Taurus Demon and still died about 5 times once I got to him.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
Those people wanna use the internet to wallow in their ignorance instead of lighting a candle? Good. It's what that was done that way for: actual social interaction. Mystery. Wonderment.
It's probably the twelth time I've pointed this out.
"You died in another game, yet the Nexus still binds your soul!"
The Homeward Bone takes you back to the last bonfire you used, so while it certainly can be used as a warp back to a "base" in the early game, you have to really know what you're doing, and do any/all areas you're passing through in one shot. Not a big deal for experts speedrunning/replaying (Firelink -> Queelag is easy and fun now), but doesn't really help new players/first time players.
Lol, depends on who you are.
The first time you have a weak character and still have to understand how the game works, so it does keep your attention and focus high.
Plus things like the Black Knight guarding the ring or the Metal Boar provide a healthy stream of stimuli in the first run.
Haha, no, not to people still learning how to play the game.
Prophet Steve
Member
It does for some players, especially if they haven't played Demons Souls before.
ebullientprism
Member
Then dont use the Warp option. Its not like the game can force you to warp. Just feel free to walk around a lot and pretend its Lord of the Rings.
What made you think there wouldn't be an offline option?
Deified Data
Banned
So you could just stand around in human form and insta-kill invaders by your sheer presence? Give the black knight a mean look and have him jump off a ledge in fear? How's that no weapons/no armor run treating you? I can't imagine you need either if there is literally zero risk of death in the Burg.
Misterinenja
Member
Was confirmed upon the first reveal duh.
linko9
Member
All sounds great! The only thing I'm slightly worried about is that they'll just have fast travel/warping without all of the neat shortcuts that made the original game's world so interconnected. Ideally, you wouldn't need fast travel at all, or would just need a few warp points. But they've already stated the the nature of the game world will be very similar to the last game, so I'm not really worried.
Learning the way that the world in Dark Souls was interconnected was one of the more satisfying aspects. I probably wouldn't have understood it nearly as well if I could warp earlier on. I think it's cool how I can still remember exactly where everything is and how to get everywhere, which I realized when I was trying to explain how to get somewhere to someone a week or two ago. I guess we'll see.
Labombadog
Member
I also enjoy the backtracking to earlier levels and finding out that I now have a key to unlock a whole new area. Thought it made the world more complex than just a straight shot to different levels.
Tyrant Rave
Banned
Awesome that servers are back. Definitely gonna play more co-op in this one.
And I didn't really mind the backtracking in Dark Souls. It only got annoying whenever I went to a blacksmith but I ended up having to go run to another one to get the weapon I wanted. So if it means less of stuff like that, I'm cool with it.
I read the messages on the floor so I didn't go to the Black Knight
TalesOfWin
Banned
But imagine an adventure game without backtracking.
I want more non-linear games, not less.
But in the DkS setup, you might not get messages on the floor. With DkS II returning to the DeS way of doing things, that won't be an issue.
I agree that the backtracking in DS1 was part of the overall experience. Even though warping was introduced later in the game, it was after the player had learned the layout of the world by heart. From what I read, it seems they want to implement warping from the get-go? If that's true, I think it's a bad decision
DS1 was the ultimate adventure because you were forced to tread through this beautiful world. Warping around for convenience and less "tediousness" is really misguided I think. This is the ultimate example of "It's about the journey, not the destination".
That said, my primary fear was the the game would be Call of Duty'd (aka made casual friendly), and after reading the interview, I'm (mostly) at ease. I can't fucking wait!
DS1 was the ultimate adventure because you were forced to tread through this beautiful world. Warping around for convenience and less "tediousness" is really misguided I think. This is the ultimate example of "It's about the journey, not the destination".
That said, my primary fear was the the game would be Call of Duty'd (aka made casual friendly), and after reading the interview, I'm (mostly) at ease. I can't fucking wait!
:O
I think you can cut back on the backtracking while still keeping the metroidvania world.
Infact, they said the world is even more open than Dark Souls, but about the same general idea.
Mr.Monitor
Member
It sounds like they really are analyzing the original and focusing on what a Souls game means to people. I wish more studios would do this when making a sequel. I was super impressed at how the footage from yesterday looked very similar to what we've already played, but at the same time it seems like they've built on the idea quite a bit. So far it looks like this is exactly how you make a sequel.
The fact that warping wasn't available for so long is what made the open world design actually meaningful. One of the best parts about Dark Souls is when it dawns on you just how interconnected the world is. If you start adding more possibilities for quick travel, you threaten to ruin a part of that.
By the time you do get warping, you're already very familiar with the world from having traveled through its environments and seeing what leads where. It was perfect.
H_Prestige
Banned
They better not make it so that you can warp right from the start.
The Crimson Kid
what are you waiting for
It's great to hear that Namco isn't inserting themselves into the development process of this game. When publishers start dictating to developers of an established franchise about how the next one needs to be made, the result is usually a poorer game.
It sounds like they are just going to be offering the choice to warp between bonfires earlier on than in Dark Souls, which is a good thing. There's a difference between having the choice to warp back or to traverse back manually and being forced to backtrack everywhere as was the case for most of Dark Souls.
Again, they don't say that you can't backtrack if you want to or that there won't be the kinds of rewards of revisiting old areas that there were in Dark Souls. It just sounds like the option to warp between bonfires will be available earlier, which is great for certain situations or for impatient players and should be totally ignorable for those who don't want to use that option.
Also the repeated confirmation of a dedicated server setup makes me extremely excited. It's undeniable that the summoning system and everything relating to PvP in Dark Souls was broken due to not having that dedicated server to equalize the experience for everyone.
It sounds like they are just going to be offering the choice to warp between bonfires earlier on than in Dark Souls, which is a good thing. There's a difference between having the choice to warp back or to traverse back manually and being forced to backtrack everywhere as was the case for most of Dark Souls.
Again, they don't say that you can't backtrack if you want to or that there won't be the kinds of rewards of revisiting old areas that there were in Dark Souls. It just sounds like the option to warp between bonfires will be available earlier, which is great for certain situations or for impatient players and should be totally ignorable for those who don't want to use that option.
Also the repeated confirmation of a dedicated server setup makes me extremely excited. It's undeniable that the summoning system and everything relating to PvP in Dark Souls was broken due to not having that dedicated server to equalize the experience for everyone.
Ingueferroque
Banned
No warping please, unless a rare item is used at bonfires.
No waypoints please, and god please no quick-travel options!
No waypoints please, and god please no quick-travel options!
I feel like Dark Souls had too many bonfires
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
I'm not sure how removing forced backtracking automatically means the experience will be more linear. Fast travel affecting the sense of interconnectedness of the world might be a more valid issue, but as long as people retain the ability to walk from point A to point B, I'm not sure how that's major either. Not having to backtrack does not automatically mean the game is structured like a corridor, it would only really mean that you don't have to run through areas with nothing in them if you don't care to.
Besides, open worlds are an illusion, every game with an end goal is linear. What people are really concerned about is whether their choices have a real effect over how they progress and that they can have unique experiences depending on how they play.
Nobody wants Dark Souls to be one long corridor, but I think we've already seen enough to know this won't be the case. As long as the environments are still put together in an interesting way with expansive and varied areas, being able to hop around to already visited spots shouldn't detract from the world.
Besides, open worlds are an illusion, every game with an end goal is linear. What people are really concerned about is whether their choices have a real effect over how they progress and that they can have unique experiences depending on how they play.
Nobody wants Dark Souls to be one long corridor, but I think we've already seen enough to know this won't be the case. As long as the environments are still put together in an interesting way with expansive and varied areas, being able to hop around to already visited spots shouldn't detract from the world.
This is like, not a problem at all. Bonfires are forgiving enough as it is, we don't need more of them. The only real price the Souls games exact for death is the penalty of redoing a level if you die. The more bonfires/checkpoint-equivalents there are, the less of a penalty it becomes. As it is, we've already lost the tension and joy of busting through, say, 3-2 in one go.
There's quite a few things I hope the team doesn't listen to the fans on.
I think there were potential backtracking problems in dark souls that you could dig yourself into but were probably outliers. For example, if you got all the way to the end of ash lake before you had the lord vessel, that would suck a lot.
Similarly, I got as far as it allows you to go in the tomb of the giants without the lord vessel and it was really frustrating to be blocked by a golden fog door and realizing I would have to get all the way back out and then all the way back in later.
Similarly, I got as far as it allows you to go in the tomb of the giants without the lord vessel and it was really frustrating to be blocked by a golden fog door and realizing I would have to get all the way back out and then all the way back in later.
I continue to set myself up for disappointment before I read anything regarding Dark Souls II, and yet my excitement has only grown. Sad to say such a thing, but the industry of this generation has done everything it could to ruin consumer confidence, all in a quest to extract the maximum amount of profits.
Keep it up, FromSoft!
Keep it up, FromSoft!
Acerac
Banned
It worked fine in Demon's Souls.
abstract alien
Member
The lack of real back tracking sounds terrible, and nothing was ever really tedious to begin with. Only thing that could be really questioned was killing NPCs, but even that had it's place. It helped round out the world as an actual place where your actions mattered.
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
They also had only one bonfire per level how it should be imo.
Star Falcon
Member
Removing backtracking might not be such a good thing. I loved the Castlevania/Metroid style of exploration of returning to old areas, hitting new shortcuts and finding new paths. Even the bonfires were very remniscent of the save rooms in Castlevania/Metroid.
Prophet Steve
Member
I do not get what you are saying. Do you want people to discuss with others? Because I do not see why people who want to do that when searching the solution is so much easier.