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[Midou]

Yes but there is a certain level of challenge to the game which leads to trial and error,for example the traps at sen's fortress or the bed of chaos etc.

As was said above, bed of chaos is legitimately bad. The traps at sen's fortress are not that bad. For the swinging parts, you can adjust your camera to see them better in certain parts. The ground switches, you can usually figure out where the spear thing will come from, otherwise, you may roll through, or when you are looking in one direction and don't see anything, turning around quickly and blocking would work too.

The game introduces you to a plate trap the second you enter the fortress too.

 

[Sid]

As was said above, bed of chaos is legitimately bad. The traps at sen's fortress are not that bad. For the swinging parts, you can adjust your camera to see them better in certain parts. The ground switches, you can usually figure out where the spear thing will come from, otherwise, you may roll through, or when you are looking in one direction and don't see anything, turning around quickly and blocking would work too.

The game introduces you to a plate trap the second you enter the fortress too.

What about stuff like mistakenly accessing the graveyard or attacking the mushroom people or even many boss fights like smough and ornstein which at least i couldn't ace on my first go at them?

 

[The Anti-Monitor]

I know that but maybe we get to play as our previous character for a while....anyways was just asking.

That would only be possible if your character had the Dark Lord ending.

Yes but there is a certain level of challenge to the game which leads to trial and error,for example the traps at sen's fortress or the bed of chaos etc.


Yes but understanding the patterns takes a while and that's where trial and error comes in.

By the time you get to Sen's Fortress you should know traps exist in the game, and seeing the first blades should make pretty obvious how the entire fortress is gonna be. Excluding the first Mimic, who unless you see messages will catch you off-guard the first time.

I don't think understanding the patterns requires that much trial and error. I mean, unless you thought that standing near the enormous maw of the Gaping Dragon was a good idea, you should only fail by stuff like "which sword slice do i have to dodge and which do i have to block?"

What about stuff like mistakenly accessing the graveyard or attacking the mushroom people or even many boss fights like smough and ornstein which at least i couldn't ace on my first go at them?

The game tells you to go up, if you go to an late area early it's your fault. I mean, you could go early to New Londo and fight the Ghosts, but that's not trial and error, that's you going to where you shouldn't.

No attacking the mushroom people? Why would't you? The big ones hit like a truck but their massive mushroom people and they're very slow, you should see their attack coming.

And I beat O&S on my second try. The fat guy is the slow guy who you should dodge, the slim guy is the fast one. Just work from there. It's a hard fight to beat, but not a hard one to understand.

 

[Midou]

even many boss fights like smough and ornstein which at least i couldn't ace on my first go at them?

That is a kind of trial and error I guess, but not in a bad way really. When I think of trial and error, I think of like, 4 switches you can step on, 3 of them will kill you and one of them is correct, so you have no choice but to try everything first.

It would be pretty lame to beat every boss in a first try and not having to learn patterns or form strategies.

 

[Eusis]

Haha, perfect

It actually probably would've been fine if either the ghosts were far less frequent (making it a bit more scary too actually) or if Ingward were around the first fog gate.

And the Demon's Souls bits are interesting, but I'd have to assume, no, they really didn't write canon connecting them, though characters are shared (well, Patches at least).

 

[zkylon]

What about stuff like mistakenly accessing the graveyard or attacking the mushroom people or even many boss fights like smough and ornstein which at least i couldn't ace on my first go at them?

It's not 100% trial and error, and it's not 0% either. Knowing that you have to go up instead of down when you start the game is basically trial and error. It's made in such a way that you don't really lose anything, since you just take like 10 steps and get swarmed by pretty much unkillable skeletons that bleed you through your shield. So you remember what the crestfallen knight said and go up instead of down.

Same about Sen's, they put a pressure plate right in the beginning so you get killed and learn that those things exist. The bonfire is right around the corner so you haven't really lost anything, and if you take the time to study it you can see you're always able to tell where the pressure plate is (it's very noticeably "popped") and where the arrows come from. The mimic in Sen's is more douche-y, but to me, the trauma of losing so much progress taught me the invaluable lesson of attacking every chest before opening it.

Attacking the mushroom people or bosses isn't trial and error, though, you just gotta be patient, analyze their patterns, check how much you can block before running out of stamina, you should usually approach the bosses for like 5 minutes of not attacking and just understanding how they work.

 

[Midou]

you should usually approach the bosses for like 5 minutes of not attacking and just understanding how they work.

This will only get you killed a couple of times, like, against the Capra Demon.

I find it super easy now, but man, those dogs were such a hassle on my first runs.

 

[SlaughterX]

I guess I should probably open my CE copy of DS for the 360... or just buy the regular version on the PS3 for the low. I dunno.

 

[zkylon]

This will only get you killed a couple of times, like, against the Capra Demon.

I find it super easy now, but man, those dogs were such a hassle on my first runs.

True. The game tries super hard not to be trial and error, sometimes it fails (Bed of Chaos), sometimes it doesn't (S&O), and sometimes it does trial and error well knowingly (some of my previous post examples).

By the way, I only raged on NG against the fucking 4Ks and now that I know the jumping shortcut I'm willing to bet they won't even get me mad. Usually I just laugh at my own carelessness or FROM sadism, or the combination of the two, heh.

 

[Sentenza]

What about stuff like mistakenly accessing the graveyard or attacking the mushroom people or even many boss fights like smough and ornstein which at least i couldn't ace on my first go at them?

Yeah... What about them?
Nothing of what you are listing is "unfair" or "trial and error" by any standard.

 

[The Anti-Monitor]

By the way, I only raged on NG against the fucking 4Ks and now that I know the jumping shortcut I'm willing to bet they won't even get me mad. Usually I just laugh at my own carelessness or FROM sadism, or the combination of the two, heh.

Lawl.

Four Kings are by far the hardest boss in NG+. That fight gets so much harder when you have two-three Kings fighting you at once. Although it feels cool as fuck.

 

[UrbanRats]

Can you explain this?

Here, i made an handy graphic:

 

[zkylon]

Lawl.

Four Kings are by far the hardest boss in NG+. That fight gets so much harder when you have two-three Kings fighting you at once. Although it feels cool as fuck.

Yeah, no two ways about it, I hate that fight. I would've gone up to NG++++++ but I'm just annoyed at having to fight them again...

Here, i made an handy graphic:

lol mad props to you, man, that's great.

 

[Midou]

Usually I just laugh at my own carelessness or FROM sadism, or the combination of the two, heh.

Yes, that's how most of my deaths are now.

I was just fighting the stray demon the the return to the asylum, he had 5% of his life left, he goes to do his normal ass stomp, and somehow I was under his weapon in such a way that I was chained and hit many times and died instantly from full life, I was like, lol wat just happened, and then just did it again. That fight is also a bit annoying, since you take falling damage, then if he decides to do his firey blast while you're recovering, it's pretty much insta-dead. It's not too bad though, especially since you are 2 seconds from a bonfire.

Edit: Trial and Error image is genius, that's exactly how I see it.

 

[Sid]

Yeah... What about them?
Nothing of what you are listing is "unfair" or "trial and error" by any standard.

I didn't say the game is unfair,in short:it takes (at least) me a while to go through a level despite forming a strategy like when facing the capra demon or s & o and some unexpected events like in bed of chaos,spikes coming out of some statues etc. don't help the case that's all,i like the way it is is what i was saying.

 

[Sentenza]

Here, i made an handy graphic:

 

[UrbanRats]

I must have tried 4K at NG+ 15 times, before saying "fuck it, i'll take a break from the game", then i booted the game with the 60 fps mode on (days later), and not constantly dipping in the teens must've helped me quite a bit, since i beat them on the first try.

 

[tokkun]

The Souls games, hard as they are, have many ways to complete most of the fights. You don't have to memorize a single procedure. And if you're careful and smart, it's within the realm of possibility to complete many of the fights on your first encounter. There's a big difference between memorizing the layout of a level and having to learn the exact millisecond to jump over an obstacle, and taking note of how an enemy fights while playing defensively, then mounting an offensive strategy based on that.

Practically speaking, there are a lot of moments in the game where you are going to get killed the first time you go into them. The first time you encounter a Black Knight, the dragon on the bridge, the skeleton archers in Anor Londo, the Abyss, not to mention the many 'ambush' situations in the game.

Yes, it is possible not to die in these situations, but there certainly is a spirit of trial and error going on there.

 

[R1CHO]

Here, i made an handy graphic:

Sir, you are a scholar and a gentleman.

 

[zkylon]

I must have tried 4K at NG+ 15 times, before saying "fuck it, i'll take a break from the game", then i booted the game with the 60 fps mode on (days later), and not constantly dipping in the teens must've helped me quite a bit, since i beat them on the first try.

Ok, I'm convinced to try it on 60FPS. Got a link to the mod?

 

[Midou]

Yes, it is possible not to die in these situations, but there certainly is a spirit of trial and error going on there.

This is where the image posted above comes into it. You can sense death in these types of scenarios and always having your shield up and going through places slowly usually saves your ass. The first time you go on the bridge where the dragon is, you take severely reduced fire damage, but you learn not to stay on the bridge as you will get burned.

If there is a large black knight who isn't part of your normal enemies, and you have to purposely aggro them, maybe come back to it later. When you notice you're doing crap damage, come back later.

 

[UrbanRats]

Ok, I'm convinced to try it on 60FPS. Got a link to the mod?

It's called DSfix or something, from a from a dude called "Durante".

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=488240

 

[onimushroom]

Here, i made an handy graphic: [image of win]

Fantastic job!

 

[Viewtify]

This is where the image posted above comes into it. You can sense death in these types of scenarios and always having your shield up and going through places slowly usually saves your ass. The first time you go on the bridge where the dragon is, you take severely reduced fire damage, but you learn not to stay on the bridge as you will get burned.

You also see the dragon land 3 feet in front of you before you get to the bridge. And the bridge itself is burnt from the dragons flames.

 

[FunkyPajamas]

Any news about the saves carrying over?

What an odd thing to want/assume. Why would this happen at all?

 

[zkylon]

It's called DSfix or something, from a from a dude called "Durante".

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=488240

A gaffer made it, search for the DSfix thread. And tip the dude if you like it.

Oh, didn't know DSFix had it included.

 

[derFeef]

Here, i made an handy graphic:

Fantastic.

 

[Santiako]

 

[Arjen]

Bravo, post of the year.

 

[FunkyPajamas]

Bravo, post of the year.

No, the ME3 joke does not work because (we assume) the three doors go to three different places.

It would be better if the ME3 option, it's just one door, colored in green, blue and red.

 

[Strife91]

Am I being unfair?

 

[FunkyPajamas]

Ha! Exacly! We were thinking the same (that image was posted a couple of seconds after my last post).

 

[mxgt]

http://i.imgur.com/ELlzb.png[IMG]

Am I being unfair?[/QUOTE]

Nope, pretty much spot on.

 

[Arjen]

No, the ME3 joke does not work because (we assume) the three doors go to three different places.

It would be better if the ME3 option, it's just one door, colored in green, blue and red.

It works because Al the three doors lead to a dark place of eternal sadness. Or something, I just laughed real hard when I saw it.

 

[Midou]

The final door leads to disappointment.

 

[Socreges]

Am I being unfair?

This is amazing. For the Dark Souls explanation and the ME3 dig.

 

[Serra]

http://i.imgur.com/ELlzb.png

Am I being unfair?

*slowclap*

 

[Grief.exe]

Am I being unfair?

Saved to Hard Drive.

 

[krYlon]

To take the analogy further someone should put fi from skyward sword popping up in the corner advising which door to take (and there should only be one door).

I love skyward sword by the way.

 

[H_Prestige]

Is that the distinction between normal/small shields and great shields? Can't parry with great shields but you are more rooted. I never experimented with great shields, I've always played faster characters (even though I use the shield a lot).

And yea I never really thought about it but it doesn't let you know that you can check the stats on weapons too. It also doesn't tell you distinction between different weapon types, like that curved swords will pierce through shields. It's a shame that of all things doesn't have a explicit description, but it is also not too hard to experiment.

edit: one of the biggest problems for new comers is that every one says the souls games are the hardest games ever. It's why people go to the catacombs when they get to Firelink, get completely wrecked and think that's how it should be.

It's a unique property of greatshields and a couple of medium shields. Has nothing to do with stamina

 

[Midou]

To take the analogy further someone should put fi from skyward sword popping up in the corner advising which door to take (and there should only be one door).

I love skyward sword by the way.

It would have to be added to the modern games one.

 

[krYlon]

It would have to be added to the modern games one.

Yep, she should say something like "You see that marker there, you should follow it!"

 

[Kalnos]

To take the analogy further someone should put fi from skyward sword popping up in the corner advising which door to take (and there should only be one door).

I love skyward sword by the way.

"Master, there's a 99.554355% chance that this door leads to the exit."

 

[krYlon]

"Master, there's a 99.554355% chance that this door leads to the exit."

lol yeah!!

I would do it, but posting from vita

 

[rvy]

But let me ask you a question : why the hell are you so obsessed about how other people are enjoying their games..?

Unless the core of the game gets broken, why not let other people enjoy it too?

Never played any Souls games, but doesn't an easy mode ruin gameplay for invaders?

 

[sixghost]

Never played any Souls games, but doesn't an easy mode ruin gameplay for invaders?

That's one of the issues with different difficulties in a Souls game. You would either need to disable invasions in the easier mode, or only let easy mode players invade each other.

 

[Strife91]

I wouldn't want to split the community. One of the biggest charms with the community is that we are all facing the same obstacles together yet alone...

 

[Eusis]

I wouldn't want to split the community. One of the biggest charms with the community is that we are all facing the same obstacles together yet alone...

See, this is the reason I keep bringing up that they shouldn't do multiple difficulties. If it weren't for the unique online nature of the Souls games it wouldn't be THAT big of a deal so long as it was handled well, though you might get the best results more easily by focusing on one difficulty. But for the sake of co-op and PVP you HAVE to keep it even: maybe co-op could work, but PVP would be a wreck as players used to playing on normal or higher completely wreck the shit of Easy players, or you get it segregated and harder to find an opponent.

In fact, you shouldn't be looking at normal single player games with campaigns or whatever and going "but they can do it!", you should be looking at games like Diablo or any MMO I can think of and going "see how there's only one difficulty, or only harder ones for when you complete the game?" Dark Souls is absolutely in the same situation as Diablo there, there's only harder modes meant for end game characters.

 

[QisTopTier]

You can't have an easy mode, unless you split servers for each difficulty. Letting players get a bunch of the good items and farm faster than normal would really really fuck up invasions.

 

[Midou]

Yes, I suspect most people asking for an easy mode didn't play it enough to see why it doesn't make sense. You'd have to have each type of players only playing with people on that difficulty.

The best idea is still better mechanics explanations/tutorials, to ease people into it.