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Dark Souls III: The Ringed City |OT| One Last Journey

Replaying the DLC, it's not bad at all when you know what you're doing.

I'd still rather just deathrun the parts with the angels and giants than ever bother to interact with anything in them in any way, shape, or form.

The only reward for slowing down and acting like you didn't pay for a holding up and tap circle simulator is getting mobbed by a dozen enemies that group-path straight into you automatically or spawn underneath your feet. You can even sprint to the few enemies that actually give substantial rewards on death (like the Armour), completely ignoring all the bullshit on the way, entirely unpunished for it. You don't even have to kill anything to tag the Purging Monument for the only substantial sidequest.

The entire DLC for me may as well be three Ringed Knight fights and bosses. Literally no reason to fight these garbage-ass enemies in these awful, awful zones. (And to be fair, Painted World had much the same problem. Wolfjob Forest just is not worth interacting with.)
 
Man, From's patches are always so goddamn hit-or-miss... :\ Awesome change one time, horrid change the next line. Every single time.

When a white phantom dies during an invasion, the host will now be unable to summon subsequent white phantoms for a certain period of time (this change does not apply to covenant based invasions)

Increased drop rate of "Seed of a Giant Tree", reduced the number that can be carried and greatly reduced the duration of its effect
Sweeeeeeet!!

Up to a total of two "Darkmoon Blades" or "Blue Sentinels" can now be summoned during online multiplayer
It is now easier to be interrupted when using most weapon skills
Reduced damage of "Gargoyle Flame Spear" and "Dragonslayer Spear"
Noooooooooooooo


Added Faith scaling to "Sunlight Straight Sword" and "Yorshka's Spear", and reduced Strength and Dexterity scaling accordingly
Oh fuck you, NOW you give us faith-scaling weapons after I beat everything with my faith huh

Increased the charge rate for effects that trigger on continuous attacks (e.g. "Pontiff's Right Eye", "Old Wolf Curved Sword", "Carthus Beacon")
Nice, might be worth using now...

Increased stamina consumption of the sorceries "Magic Shield" and "Great Magic Shield"
Increased FP consumption of the sorcery "Great Magic Shield"
Increased FP and stamina consumption, and reduced duration of the sorcery "Hidden Body"
Reduced the effectiveness of "Carthus Bloodring"
........
Why.gif


Their solution to this for Ringed City seems to have been making all the bosses absurdly mobile and giving them a lot of sweeping and charging attacks with generous amounts of auto-tracking and large AoE.

Not... really a great way of doing it, to be honest, but I guess it's better than a humanoid boss just sort of slowly rotating in place failing to keep up with two players circling him constantly.
Well, how would you do it, genius? :P
 
I'd still rather just deathrun the parts with the angels and giants than ever bother to interact with anything in them in any way, shape, or form.
You can skip the swamp part of Earthen Peak by jumping onto a wooden branch. This lets you immediately kill the angel host left of the bonfire, and also lets you have an easier trip to the second angel host. You can then explore Earthen Peak at your leisure (which is a good thing with all the treasure spread around there).

You can also easily entirely avoid the angels' attack by constantly zig-zagging as you move forward. Seriously.

The section with the first giant has basically nothing useful besides the Ruin Set, which is right at the start of the area. The next two giants are much easier to kill if you rush them. Hidden Body also never worked on the giants, though Chameleon did (and is great for getting close to the swamp giant).
 
[Probably very good advice for someone who can't find the run button.]

I got all the items in those areas by literally running/rolling around and hitting X every now and then. There is no actual reason to kill the giants. The angels at least stay dead, so admittedly killing them can be pretty satisfying, even if--again--it really doesn't accomplish very much.

Seriously, I'm on NG+8 at this point, I've learned to identify when a zone is too steeped in bullshit to soil my hands on it, and this DLC is top dog. It's so bad that even talking to NPCs is best done with a deathrun in most cases.

If you make an area that's worth interacting with, I'll do it. If you don't, I won't. I don't even use Hidden Body, just pointing out that the people who do should absolutely have it as an option if you aren't going to build your content in such a way that careful exploration and fighting are the intended methods for dealing with it, and they clearly were not at the forefront when these areas were designed.
 
I got all the items in those areas by literally running/rolling around and hitting X every now and then. There is no actual reason to kill the giants. The angels at least stay dead, so admittedly killing them can be pretty satisfying, even if--again--it really doesn't accomplish very much.

Seriously, I'm on NG+8 at this point, I've learned to identify when a zone is too steeped in bullshit to soil my hands on it, and this DLC is top dog. It's so bad that even talking to NPCs is best done with a deathrun in most cases.

If you make an area that's worth interacting with, I'll do it. If you don't, I won't. I don't even use Hidden Body, just pointing out that the people who do should absolutely have it as an option if you aren't going to build your content in such a way that careful exploration and fighting are the intended methods for dealing with it, and they clearly were not at the forefront when these areas were designed.
If you just do what I recommended, you don't have to do death runs and wait through extra loading screens.

At least do the Earthen Peak skip. It's a massive time saver whether you want to get all the treasure in the area or just get to the boss as fast as possible.

I'm really not sure how this is any different from stuff like the Blighttown Snipers.
 
If you just do what I recommended, you don't have to do death runs and wait through extra loading screens.

I'm presenting you with a much easier way of accomplishing what you want to do for Earthen Peak.

I know you think you are. I'm guessing you've literally never seen someone speedrun Dark Souls before.

These zones are <2 minute affairs without items, <4 minutes with items. Maybe ~6-7 minutes if you want to fight the NPC invaders/Armour/unique drop Ringed Knights, all of whom are placed such that you can ignore everything else on your way to fight them.

I did them "right" the first time. They were miserable slogs, and I died more than I do just running everywhere and ignoring the bullshit. I did not feel any particular satisfaction from fully-clearing them of enemies. They are visually fantastic zones with some interesting traversal ideas, thoroughly marred by their enemy/encounter design.
 
I know you think you are. I'm guessing you've literally never seen someone speedrun Dark Souls before.

These zones are <2 minute affairs without items, <4 minutes with items.
So... Just like plenty of other Dark Souls areas in a speed run?

Like yeah, Earthen Peak is hilariously short without items. That's because From literally included a shortcut straight to the next bonfire and the boss fight. This is like criticizing the Catacomb's in Dark Souls 1 because you can just drop straight to Pinwheel and ignore virtually the entire level.

I'm honestly not sure what you're complaining about. You're saying the encounters are viably completed as death runs, so they don't force you to play a certain way. Do you want more loot in those areas? Earthen Peak area with the angels already has a Titanite Slab, Ring of Favor+3, Harald Curved Greatsword, Door Shields, the Desert Pyromancer set, and Flame Fan.
 
So... Just like plenty of other Dark Souls areas in a speed run?

Like yeah, Earthen Peak is hilariously short without items. That's because From literally included a shortcut straight to the next bonfire and the boss fight. This is like criticizing the Catacomb's in Dark Souls 1 because you can just drop straight to Pinwheel and ignore virtually the entire level.

The criticism isn't that you can speedrun them. It's that--speaking as someone who's done at least 3 NG+ cycles on every Souls game, and 8 on this one in specific--I wasn't even through these zones once before I decided I would never do them "legit" again.

I can speedrun the entire game. I still do most of the areas encounter by encounter because they're fun to play properly, because it feels rewarding and interesting to do so. I will always specifically call out areas where engaging with the content feels inherently punitive as being where Dark Souls level design completely fails.

And yes, those areas exist in every game to some extent, but the only place I can think of where they're as hideously clustered and egregious as this would be the Demon Ruins/Lost Izalith and DLC "Challenge" sub-areas from DS2. Most Dark Souls areas aren't, in my estimation, so poorly balanced or designed that you should just sprint them instead of trying to play them as intended.
 
https://www.primagames.com/games/dark-souls-3/tips/dark-souls-3-how-start-ringed-city-dlc
To get started in The Ringed City you'll need to either have progressed to an end-game point in the main storyline, or have completed a large portion of Dark Souls 3's last DLC pack, Ashes of Ariandel. You should also keep in mind that FromSoftware specifically designed The Ringed City to be a late-game area, so you'll want to come to this area once your character is level 125 or higher.

This can't be right?!
(EDIT: Unless they're talking about NG+)

I was at 113 after Ariandel, and I've now raised it to 122. I just reached the first boss, and the DLC definitely seems to have increased the challenge. I think I'm going to buy better gear next, to replace the Lothric Knight set. It can't hurt my chances. =)
 
https://www.primagames.com/games/dark-souls-3/tips/dark-souls-3-how-start-ringed-city-dlc


This can't be right?!
(EDIT: Unless they're talking about NG+)

I was at 113 after Ariandel, and I've now raised it to 122. I just reached the first boss, and the DLC definitely seems to have increased the challenge. I think I'm going to buy better gear next, to replace the Lothric Knight set. It can't hurt my chances. =)

The difference between Lv122 (or for that matter, 113) and 125 is pretty trivial. The difference between similar weight armor sets is extremely trivial. Go nuts.
 
https://www.primagames.com/games/dark-souls-3/tips/dark-souls-3-how-start-ringed-city-dlc


This can't be right?!
(EDIT: Unless they're talking about NG+)

I was at 113 after Ariandel, and I've now raised it to 122. I just reached the first boss, and the DLC definitely seems to have increased the challenge. I think I'm going to buy better gear next, to replace the Lothric Knight set. It can't hurt my chances. =)

I'm level 80 and Midir is the only challenge for me.
 
It's weird because I don't think finishing the game+Ariandel puts you around SL 100, let alone 120. Game doesn't really gives you souls as much as the other games.
 
The suggested level seems more applicable to hybrid, or caster classes. If you're just leveling up vigor/endurance/weapon stat of choice, it's fine.
 
The criticism isn't that you can speedrun them. It's that--speaking as someone who's done at least 3 NG+ cycles on every Souls game, and 8 on this one in specific--I wasn't even through these zones once before I decided I would never do them "legit" again.

I can speedrun the entire game. I still do most of the areas encounter by encounter because they're fun to play properly, because it feels rewarding and interesting to do so. I will always specifically call out areas where engaging with the content feels inherently punitive as being where Dark Souls level design completely fails.

And yes, those areas exist in every game to some extent, but the only place I can think of where they're as hideously clustered and egregious as this would be the Demon Ruins/Lost Izalith and DLC "Challenge" sub-areas from DS2. Most Dark Souls areas aren't, in my estimation, so poorly balanced or designed that you should just sprint them instead of trying to play them as intended.
I think you just discovered how effective sprinting past enemies and obstacles has been since Demon's Souls.

Again, look at the Catacombs. It's an area with a bunch of endlessly respawning enemies that constantly pester you. You could take your time kicking them off ledges and looking for their masters... Or you can just sprint through the level, or skip most of it entirely with a shortcut because the only part that really matters to most players is the Rite of Kindling and reaching Tomb of the Giants. Sound familiar? Just replace "kicking them off ledges" with "hiding behind cover".
 
The criticism isn't that you can speedrun them. It's that--speaking as someone who's done at least 3 NG+ cycles on every Souls game, and 8 on this one in specific--I wasn't even through these zones once before I decided I would never do them "legit" again.

I can speedrun the entire game. I still do most of the areas encounter by encounter because they're fun to play properly, because it feels rewarding and interesting to do so. I will always specifically call out areas where engaging with the content feels inherently punitive as being where Dark Souls level design completely fails.

And yes, those areas exist in every game to some extent, but the only place I can think of where they're as hideously clustered and egregious as this would be the Demon Ruins/Lost Izalith and DLC "Challenge" sub-areas from DS2. Most Dark Souls areas aren't, in my estimation, so poorly balanced or designed that you should just sprint them instead of trying to play them as intended.

I think your reasoning is a bit extreme, but I will agree that Earthen Peak Ruins just isn't fun. I find most poison infested areas a chore, just like Blighttown was. At least in Blighttown you could ride the edges and stay out of the swamp and just have to worry about the mosquitoes. I ran through Earthen Peak Ruins one time, scooped up the items, killed the angels and never looked back. It's easily the most forgettable area of the DLC. I greatly enjoyed all of Ringed City, though.
 
I think you just discovered how effective sprinting past enemies and obstacles has been since Demon's Souls.

Again, look at the Catacombs. It's an area with a bunch of endlessly respawning enemies that constantly pester you. You could take your time kicking them off ledges and looking for their masters... Or you can just sprint through the level, or skip most of it entirely with a shortcut because the only part that really matters to most players is the Rite of Kindling and reaching Tomb of the Giants. Sound familiar? Just replace "kicking them off ledges" with "hiding behind cover".

I'm not crazy fond of the Catacombs, but outside of Lucky Ted Adventures, the number of times you would have to kill yourself to find a viable route through there without stopping to actually take stock of the situation is absurd. If you're coming into it blind, you're almost certainly best off making a few exploratory jaunts and actually getting a feel for the place before you try a dead sprint.

The number of times you need to stop to take stock of the situation--or indeed, should--in the Dreg Heap is zero. There is no part of the area that isn't built to punish you for not sprinting full-steam ahead. Earthen Peak is barely better in that regard, and since you've already been conditioned by Dreg Heap to say, "Fuck it, just run, I'll find where I'm supposed to fall eventually", guess what's likely to happen?

Then, just for extra yucks, the first encounter they throw at you in the next area is one where the only viable option is run, run, run. Guess how that goes over for tone-setting?

They're poor areas, and they don't need to be. Don't design your content to punish attempts to interact with it on every level. It's that simple.
 
Dark Souls 3 was a mistake

Good moments notwithstanding, it's an unnecessary blemish on Miyazaki's resume.

Can't believe I regret buying a DLC season pass for a fucking Miyazaki game
 
The number of times you need to stop to take stock of the situation--or indeed, should--in the Dreg Heap is zero. There is no part of the area that isn't built to punish you for not sprinting full-steam ahead. Earthen Peak is barely better in that regard, and since you've already been conditioned by Dreg Heap to say, "Fuck it, just run, I'll find where I'm supposed to fall eventually", guess what's likely to happen?

Weird, I explored the entirety of the Dreg Heap at my own pace and at no point I felt I was being "punished." The only places you're supposed to run through are where the angels are, and once you kill the first angel you can backtrack and keep exploring. You actually have to in order to meet Lapp for the first time. I'm not sure what you're on about.
 
Finally got to play DLC2 yesterday. Took about 4-5 hours to clear bosses with most things explored (missed
lapp quest, humanity side quest, and a couple of weapons/spells)
.

Overall, I found it to be a very good experience (LVL88, NG). I enjoyed the levels, enemies, and bosses. I had some problems with certain segments, but that's really just continuously making wrong turns. Now that I know where things are, the spacing between bonfires and shortcuts are very generous.

My primary issue is with complete lack of closure regarding the visit to the ringed city. I would have personally preferred a little more to make completion more apparent, but it's not too big of a deal. I had fun fighting the bosses (One took 2 tries, Two took 1 try, Three took 2 tries, Optional took about 8), and while none of them were completely new designs, they were mostly good improvements from ideas that had already been used. Additionally, as some mentioned, some of the bosses felt more designed for engaging a group this time around. I personally found that to be detrimental to the solo experience in some instances, but it's not too prominent and didn't really hinder the enjoyment.

I will still clock in quite a few hours in PvP (There are a lot of interesting new equipment, although I personally thought that AoA had a better collection of unique weapons), but for PvE, I'm happy with what was delivered with DS3.
 
Not sure how the Darkmoon/Blue Sentinel change is bad.

If you think it's an increase in how many blues a host can get, it isn't. You can have two blues pre-patch. I know because I've been summoned alongside another blue.
Oh? Were there already 2 reds maybe? I don't think I've ever seen that and I invaded tons last year.

Weird, I explored the entirety of the Dreg Heap at my own pace and at no point I felt I was being "punished." The only places you're supposed to run through are where the angels are, and once you kill the first angel you can backtrack and keep exploring. You actually have to in order to meet Lapp for the first time. I'm not sure what you're on about.
Same. Seems like just more complaining for complaining's sake.
 
Weird, I explored the entirety of the Dreg Heap at my own pace and at no point I felt I was being "punished." The only places you're supposed to run through are where the angels are, and once you kill the first angel you can backtrack and keep exploring. You actually have to in order to meet Lapp for the first time. I'm not sure what you're on about.

Let's block out the entire area, since apparently that's going to be necessary.

You fall down to the first actual play area. The encounter is multiple summoner-type enemies that spawn a horde you're likely to get mobbed by. If you choose to fight the creatures immediately in front of you, you will get swarmed. If you recognize the summoner and charge them, you will likely get blindsided by the fact there were two more summoners that group-pulled with them, leaving you with a horde at your back herding you toward the ledge.

The ledge, by the way, which has a very obvious item on it. If you do the obvious thing, and run to the ledge to get the item, it breaks and drops you out of this encounter safely, which basically sets the tone for the entire zone. This is likely to be the experience of most players their first time through, either immediately or right after killing the first (most obvious, on the right) summoner.

You're dropped down into a room where you are immediately and completely surrounded by enemies that you most likely have figured out by this point are prone to swarming and blending in with the ash. The obvious answer for any reasonable player at this point is to GTFO; being surrounded is bad and fighting in terrain that favors the enemies is dumb. Most players will probably die here, and the ones that don't will mostly run out of the room to try and get somewhere they can better evaluate the situation from, since the items in the room are less obviously placed in terms of LOS on entrance.

If the player does go outside, they're presented with the first Angel encounter. The Angel is straightforward: you run like hell to cover or you die. There are only two available points of cover: back into the moshpit, or down a one-way drop further into the zone. Guess where most people are going to go?

At this point, enemies will still be spawning near the player due to the summoner, so they're likely to keep running. As soon as they enter the next room they're going to be presented with a pair of Lothric Knights getting their buffs on, which is something most players at this point (having been through Lothric Castle, presumably) would rather corral out to a point where they can take one-by-one or avoid entirely, especially if they're worried that the summoned spawn are still going to be popping up/following them (which is a sensible concern, considering they were clearly able to spawn outside of the room the summoners were in).

This is the first time in the zone the player is even slightly encouraged to interact with the environment, and even then, doing so is still relatively contra-indicated by the way they've been conditioned by the encounters up to this point. There's a doorway on the right that lets them opt out of the encounter for the time being, and they still haven't seen a bonfire yet. Most players will probably skip an avoidable encounter at this juncture and resolve to come back once they find a bonfire.

... and head right out into a spawn mosh pit, this time with the summoners hidden away behind illusory walls and thus a seemingly unlimited supply of enemies with a nebulous area that they threaten. Time to beat feet!

... right out into an open area, which we've already been taught by the Angel is not somewhere we want to be, so any reasonable player will by booking it. There's actually a reasonable encounter to fight here with the abhorrent fatty, but at this point we're probably so used to blitzing from the rest of the zone that we're not even going to bother.

Even once we hit the end and kill the Angel's conduit, there's no way back up through the zone on foot, and without any guarantee it won't respawn if we return to the previous bonfire (as there's no guarantee it wouldn't), our hypothetical player is probably just going to soldier on to the next zone.

... and guess what the first real encounter in that zone is? Yep, another Angel, which--although we could reach the conduit and destroy it--we're likely to assume is being sourced from somewhere near the end of the zone, unreachable to us for now, a theory well-supported by the abundance of cover and comical "Thralls getting blasted" scripted event. Welp, guess we're back to running like hell, huh?

You see the problem? The design of your level encourages certain behaviors. The accumulation of those behaviors becomes a heuristic for solving the problems you present to them. If you continue to present similar problems that can be solved with similar solutions, they're most likely going to follow their established heuristics.

The behavior encouraged by the Dreg Heap is running, because problems are either actually intractable in their current form or at least seem that way. This is surprisingly well-taught by the first time the zone throws anything at the player they shouldn't be running away from, and then reinforced immediately in the next zone, even though it isn't the intended heuristic for problem-solving in Earthen Peak.

If it was intended to do anything other than get players to speedrun the zone, it's poorly designed.
 
About time they made those changes to the white phantoms and giant seed. Looking forward to seeing hosts run back to their summon(s) I killed, only to find out they're all alone.

Replaying the DLC, it's not bad at all when you know what you're doing.

Yep. Turns out once you actually take the time to learn the enemies and area, it's actually not all that bad. Like every Souls game. Weird how that works.

Sarcasm not directed towards you, but more so to these other posts that are acting like this DLC is their first Souls experience.

Dark Souls 3 was a mistake

Good moments notwithstanding, it's an unnecessary blemish on Miyazaki's resume.

Can't believe I regret buying a DLC season pass for a fucking Miyazaki game

It's hardly a blemish, Mr. vocal minority. Seriously, I don't think I've seen people bitch about Dark Souls 3 as much as NeoGAF.
 
It is now easier to be interrupted when using most weapon skills

I want to believe that this means that some weapon arts will be more dependant of armor poise. Having infinite poise in some of these move without armor was always silly.

Up to a total of two "Darkmoon Blades" or "Blue Sentinels" can now be summoned during online multiplayer

I think this happened but it was extremely rare?

When a white phantom dies during an invasion, the host will now be unable to summon subsequent white phantoms for a certain period of time (this change does not apply to covenant based invasions)

ABOUT. FUCKING. TIME

Seriously, how the fuck this took 30 patches to be done? The other day I killed like 8 fucking phantoms and the guy was running all the way back everytime.....

Increased drop rate of "Seed of a Giant Tree", reduced the number that can be carried and greatly reduced the duration of its effect

.....fuck you Miyazaki, fuck you.

Reduced the absorption penalty when wearing "Prisoner's Chain"

Maybe it will be worth wearing now.
 
I'm not crazy fond of the Catacombs, but outside of Lucky Ted Adventures, the number of times you would have to kill yourself to find a viable route through there without stopping to actually take stock of the situation is absurd. If you're coming into it blind, you're almost certainly best off making a few exploratory jaunts and actually getting a feel for the place before you try a dead sprint.

The number of times you need to stop to take stock of the situation--or indeed, should--in the Dreg Heap is zero. There is no part of the area that isn't built to punish you for not sprinting full-steam ahead. Earthen Peak is barely better in that regard, and since you've already been conditioned by Dreg Heap to say, "Fuck it, just run, I'll find where I'm supposed to fall eventually", guess what's likely to happen?

Then, just for extra yucks, the first encounter they throw at you in the next area is one where the only viable option is run, run, run. Guess how that goes over for tone-setting?

They're poor areas, and they don't need to be. Don't design your content to punish attempts to interact with it on every level. It's that simple.

I took the Dreg Heap slow. Just as slow as I normally explore a new area. I died twice to angels, both times because I took unnecessary risks. It seemed fine to me. I was really surprised when I got online and saw all the complaints. Then I watched Oroboro's stream and saw him sprinting around trying to grab all the items only to die repeatedly and understood. Like I said before, common sense should tell you that YOLOing it is not the way to approach that area.

You see the problem?

I see the problem with the way you approached the level, yeah.
 
Eh? It seems OK. They aren't as rare (but who cares since assholes duped them anyway), but they can't carry that many at once, AND it doesn't last as long. Sounds good to me.

It will depends of the actual duration now, if it's like 10 minutes maybe, more than that.....but tbh in my case they didn't seem that common on invasions, now seems I will have to deal with them more commonly.
 
It will depends of the actual duration now, if it's like 10 minutes maybe, more than that.....but tbh in my case they didn't seem that common on invasions, now seems I will have to deal with them more commonly.

I'd wager it's now a few minutes at most. "Greatly reduced" sounds like they want it to be a very temporary thing.
 
Let's block out the entire area, since apparently that's going to be necessary.

You fall down to the first actual play area. The encounter is multiple summoner-type enemies that spawn a horde you're likely to get mobbed by. If you choose to fight the creatures immediately in front of you, you will get swarmed. If you recognize the summoner and charge them, you will likely get blindsided by the fact there were two more summoners that group-pulled with them, leaving you with a horde at your back herding you toward the ledge.

They die in one hit. Two at most. I killed all of them. Didn't die once.

The ledge, by the way, which has a very obvious item on it. If you do the obvious thing, and run to the ledge to get the item, it breaks and drops you out of this encounter safely, which basically sets the tone for the entire zone. This is likely to be the experience of most players their first time through, either immediately or right after killing the first (most obvious, on the right) summoner.

I went to the stairs on the left after killing the mushy guys and the summoners, found the first fat guy, killed him, climbed some more stairs and found the items. First time. No issues.

You're dropped down into a room where you are immediately and completely surrounded by enemies that you most likely have figured out by this point are prone to swarming and blending in with the ash. The obvious answer for any reasonable player at this point is to GTFO; being surrounded is bad and fighting in terrain that favors the enemies is dumb. Most players will probably die here, and the ones that don't will mostly run out of the room to try and get somewhere they can better evaluate the situation from, since the items in the room are less obviously placed in terms of LOS on entrance.

Again, killed everything and didn't die once, even at lvl 90. It's hard but it's meant to be hard. I also picked all the loot before leaving. There's even two exit points, once with additional loot.

If the player does go outside, they're presented with the first Angel encounter. The Angel is straightforward: you run like hell to cover or you die. There are only two available points of cover: back into the moshpit, or down a one-way drop further into the zone. Guess where most people are going to go?

True.

At this point, enemies will still be spawning near the player due to the summoner, so they're likely to keep running. As soon as they enter the next room they're going to be presented with a pair of Lothric Knights getting their buffs on, which is something most players at this point (having been through Lothric Castle, presumably) would rather corral out to a point where they can take one-by-one or avoid entirely, especially if they're worried that the summoned spawn are still going to be popping up/following them (which is a sensible concern, considering they were clearly able to spawn outside of the room the summoners were in).

This is the first time in the zone the player is even slightly encouraged to interact with the environment, and even then, doing so is still relatively contra-indicated by the way they've been conditioned by the encounters up to this point. There's a doorway on the right that lets them opt out of the encounter for the time being, and they still haven't seen a bonfire yet. Most players will probably skip an avoidable encounter at this juncture and resolve to come back once they find a bonfire.

Nope, just killed them both in that same room, since they take turns to attack. The second knight won't even approach you until the first one is dead if you're fast enough. You certainly seem to know how "most players" would react despite my experience being radically different than yours.

... and head right out into a spawn mosh pit, this time with the summoners hidden away behind illusory walls and thus a seemingly unlimited supply of enemies with a nebulous area that they threaten. Time to beat feet!

The only unfair area from everything you described so far.

... right out into an open area, which we've already been taught by the Angel is not somewhere we want to be, so any reasonable player will by booking it. There's actually a reasonable encounter to fight here with the abhorrent fatty, but at this point we're probably so used to blitzing from the rest of the zone that we're not even going to bother.

Another example of "I did this, so everyone else is gonna"

And the rest of your post goes on like this. I was going to continue to refute each point but it's not worth it, because everyone will get a different experience from the game. I'm just gonna say at this point that my experience with the DLC was totally different than yours, and while I understand your points and how they detracted from the experience for you, you shouldn't assume that everyone is going to approach the encounters the way you did.
 
Those changes sound good for invaders, so I'm excited. Some of them, the Hidden Body nerf in particular, are strange though. Who was ever complaining about that spell?

Speaking of invasions I hopped back into PvP with a SL 80 dex build that I hadn't touched in ages and I actually had a good time. I think I killed about 15 players in a row (a mix of invaders and hosts) without losing, including a few 2v1s as I ran through Irithyll. The Old Wolf Curved Sword hits really hard, looks awesome, and has a really cool looking L2 attack.

Here's some of that "good" Dark Souls lag for everyone to enjoy. It's always really funny when the damage just suddenly explodes all at once.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIB2OT0MG64
 
And the rest of your post goes on like this. I was going to continue to refute each point but it's not worth it, because everyone will get a different experience from the game. I'm just gonna say at this point that my experience with the DLC was totally different than yours, and while I understand your points and how they detracted from the experience for you, you shouldn't assume that everyone is going to approach the encounters the way you did.

I fully-cleared the area my first time through, because I'm doing the DLC on NG+7 and I'm (obviously) an absurd completionist.

My "experience" is me positing the most reasonable/common experience of an average player based on design choices made regarding the area, most prominently things like sight lines, points of interest, and player teaching (with regard to mechanics). That's what you do as a game developer: you try to figure out how the majority of players will experience the content and adjust it accordingly.

As an example, I'm fully cognizant of the "har har you thought you would finally get to hit the archer but SURPRISE AMBUSH!" school of encounter design that Dark Souls subscribes to, so when I've been getting pelted by an archer for a good long while, the first thing I do when I get into melee range is look for the jackass around the corner that's going to ambush me.

This is not, obviously, what the design of that encounter is: you expect the player will blindly charge the archer and get blind-sided by the ambusher, which is why you built the encounter that way to begin with. The only reason you even put an ambusher there is because you expected that outcome.

There will be players who take the Dreg Heap "slow"--you still have to flee for significant portions of it, so it's never going to be a proper slow zone--but the design is such that the clear expectation is that players are going to be doing a whole lot of running.
 
Hope seeds aren't nerfed hard.
Honestly I'm not a fan on using them, but I'm less of a fan of invaders just straight hiding behind monsters over and over and over again.
 
Dark Souls 3 was a mistake

Good moments notwithstanding, it's an unnecessary blemish on Miyazaki's resume.

Can't believe I regret buying a DLC season pass for a fucking Miyazaki game

Some of the gameplay changes aren't necessarily good and there's a bunch of enemy encounters I flat out don't like, but there is enough good in the game that I disagree with that statement. Sure, add some of the gameplay and UI enhancements of 3 back to 1 and I won't want for much, but I definitely enjoy 3 for the most part. I don't think it can quite claim the "Every death is your fault" badge that 1 can given how fast attacks can come out of enemies and how ganky the encounters can be, but there's a lot of fun to be had.

1's still better, though.
 
Dark Souls 3 was a mistake

Good moments notwithstanding, it's an unnecessary blemish on Miyazaki's resume.

Can't believe I regret buying a DLC season pass for a fucking Miyazaki game

I love posts like this. DS3 is my first Soulsborne game and I absolutely love it (and the dlc). Now I can't wait to play the others, if they are apparently even better.

DS1 remaster please.
 
Some of the gameplay changes aren't necessarily good and there's a bunch of enemy encounters I flat out don't like, but there is enough good in the game that I disagree with that statement. Sure, add some of the gameplay and UI enhancements of 3 back to 1 and I won't want for much, but I definitely enjoy 3 for the most part. I don't think it can quite claim the "Every death is your fault" badge that 1 can given how fast attacks can come out of enemies and how ganky the encounters can be, but there's a lot of fun to be had.

1's still better, though.

That's an interesting thought. What would you take back with you to DS1?

Weapon Arts? The general speed of gameplay? FP and Ashen Estus?
 
That's an interesting thought. What would you take back with you to DS1?

Weapon Arts? The general speed of gameplay? FP and Ashen Estus?

I think WA could return, they're good to ad more variety on the combat. I also like MP based magic but fuck that nonsense of sharing estus count. It's so beyond stupid that I'm baffled they did it this way.

DS1 shouldn't get a speed up though. DS3 feels a little imbalanced in some places because of the fasted paced gameplay. DS1 speed was perfect.
 
I think WA could return, they're good to ad more variety on the combat. I also like MP based magic but fuck that nonsense of sharing estus count. It's so beyond stupid that I'm baffled they did it this way.

I don't think this is a bad idea on principle, but magic should be quite a bit more powerful in order to justify the tradeoff. As it stands right now, it's not worth sacrificing heals for.
 
When a white phantom dies during an invasion, the host will now be unable to summon subsequent white phantoms for a certain period of time (this change does not apply to covenant based invasions)

Fucking FINALLY

Dark Souls 3 was a mistake

Good moments notwithstanding, it's an unnecessary blemish on Miyazaki's resume.

Can't believe I regret buying a DLC season pass for a fucking Miyazaki game

Also, you're nuts and overreacting big time.
 
It will depends of the actual duration now, if it's like 10 minutes maybe, more than that.....but tbh in my case they didn't seem that common on invasions, now seems I will have to deal with them more commonly.

I don't see how. If they can carry fewer of them at once and they expire faster, it sounds like we'll definitely see less of them.
 
I just can't deal with Gael's third phase. In a long time I'm tempted to summon help at a boss before defeating it solo for the first time :l
 
Let's block out the entire area, since apparently that's going to be necessary.

You fall down to the first actual play area. The encounter is multiple summoner-type enemies that spawn a horde you're likely to get mobbed by. If you choose to fight the creatures immediately in front of you, you will get swarmed. If you recognize the summoner and charge them, you will likely get blindsided by the fact there were two more summoners that group-pulled with them, leaving you with a horde at your back herding you toward the ledge.

The ledge, by the way, which has a very obvious item on it. If you do the obvious thing, and run to the ledge to get the item, it breaks and drops you out of this encounter safely, which basically sets the tone for the entire zone. This is likely to be the experience of most players their first time through, either immediately or right after killing the first (most obvious, on the right) summoner.

You're dropped down into a room where you are immediately and completely surrounded by enemies that you most likely have figured out by this point are prone to swarming and blending in with the ash. The obvious answer for any reasonable player at this point is to GTFO; being surrounded is bad and fighting in terrain that favors the enemies is dumb. Most players will probably die here, and the ones that don't will mostly run out of the room to try and get somewhere they can better evaluate the situation from, since the items in the room are less obviously placed in terms of LOS on entrance.

If the player does go outside, they're presented with the first Angel encounter. The Angel is straightforward: you run like hell to cover or you die. There are only two available points of cover: back into the moshpit, or down a one-way drop further into the zone. Guess where most people are going to go?

At this point, enemies will still be spawning near the player due to the summoner, so they're likely to keep running. As soon as they enter the next room they're going to be presented with a pair of Lothric Knights getting their buffs on, which is something most players at this point (having been through Lothric Castle, presumably) would rather corral out to a point where they can take one-by-one or avoid entirely, especially if they're worried that the summoned spawn are still going to be popping up/following them (which is a sensible concern, considering they were clearly able to spawn outside of the room the summoners were in).

This is the first time in the zone the player is even slightly encouraged to interact with the environment, and even then, doing so is still relatively contra-indicated by the way they've been conditioned by the encounters up to this point. There's a doorway on the right that lets them opt out of the encounter for the time being, and they still haven't seen a bonfire yet. Most players will probably skip an avoidable encounter at this juncture and resolve to come back once they find a bonfire.

... and head right out into a spawn mosh pit, this time with the summoners hidden away behind illusory walls and thus a seemingly unlimited supply of enemies with a nebulous area that they threaten. Time to beat feet!

... right out into an open area, which we've already been taught by the Angel is not somewhere we want to be, so any reasonable player will by booking it. There's actually a reasonable encounter to fight here with the abhorrent fatty, but at this point we're probably so used to blitzing from the rest of the zone that we're not even going to bother.

Even once we hit the end and kill the Angel's conduit, there's no way back up through the zone on foot, and without any guarantee it won't respawn if we return to the previous bonfire (as there's no guarantee it wouldn't), our hypothetical player is probably just going to soldier on to the next zone.

... and guess what the first real encounter in that zone is? Yep, another Angel, which--although we could reach the conduit and destroy it--we're likely to assume is being sourced from somewhere near the end of the zone, unreachable to us for now, a theory well-supported by the abundance of cover and comical "Thralls getting blasted" scripted event. Welp, guess we're back to running like hell, huh?

You see the problem? The design of your level encourages certain behaviors. The accumulation of those behaviors becomes a heuristic for solving the problems you present to them. If you continue to present similar problems that can be solved with similar solutions, they're most likely going to follow their established heuristics.

The behavior encouraged by the Dreg Heap is running, because problems are either actually intractable in their current form or at least seem that way. This is surprisingly well-taught by the first time the zone throws anything at the player they shouldn't be running away from, and then reinforced immediately in the next zone, even though it isn't the intended heuristic for problem-solving in Earthen Peak.

If it was intended to do anything other than get players to speedrun the zone, it's poorly designed.
My own personal experience did not match any of that.

I approached the Murkmen with caution, saw the casters, killed them because you always kill the snipers first, and then used Wrath of the Gods to easily clear the rest out.

I missed the object on the ledge, went left up the staircase because I thought that was the way forward, fought the Harald Knight and obtained the Aquamarine Dagger, hit a dead end, and then while backtracking accidentally found the way forward.

I immediately attacked the caster Murkmen at the end of the drop and cleared out the rest so I could explore for loot.

I saw the angel start shooting and hid behind cover; as I examined at the enemy, I noticed that it lost attention and turned away quickly, so I knew stealth worked. I tried running around the house, found the Ring of Steel Protection+3, and got blasted trying to roll the projectiles, so I learned rolling is not totally effective.

After reaching the Lothric Knights, I immediately remembered how annoying fighting two at once could be, so I pulled out my bow and pulled them one at a time for an easy fight.

Entered the Murkmen house, started using Wrath of the Gods, saw they were respawning, and assumed I was supposed to just grab whatever was in there and run out. Missed Great Soul Dregs and the Covetous Silver Serpent Ring+3.

Saw the column collapse, ran back, noticed the new path. Met Lapp up there, then continued forward. Killed the angel host, explored a bit but missed the drop to the other Lothric Knights.

Reached Earthen Peak, saw another Angel and a bunch of cover. Started playing red light green light. Reached the swamp area, saw another angel. Didn't notice the curse build-up, died. Got back to where I was, made a dash wen the curse built up and found some new cover. I went up the root and met Zoey, got killed. Went back, killed Zoey, found the angel host on the roof. Explored the swamp at my leisure and found everything there.

Then I got stuck. I couldn't figure out how to get past the angel after Zoey. I always took too much damage or accidentally fell off the tree branch when I tried to make a break for it, and I couldn't find the angel's host. I eventually gave up on killing the host and decided to try out Great Magic Barrier... And I noticed the damage seemed to be less. So I stuck on Great Magic Barrier, Blue Bug Pellet, Magic Stoneplate Ring+1 and the most magic resistant armor. With the extra protection, I could take my time running up the tree branch and looking for the right way down. Found it, reached the bonfire, obstacle solved. Found the last angel host, felt good about killing it.

Everyone has a different experience on their first playthrough. However, I do think the Dreg Heap rewards not just rushing through unless you're familiar with the area.
 
I just can't deal with Gael's third phase. In a long time I'm tempted to summon help at a boss before defeating it solo for the first time :l

He's easier if you fight him on the dune slopes. He misses a bit more often. Generally the attack that kills you is the one that spawns those projectiles that turn into lightning strike spots, just gets really confusing to see what is going on. Just get far away from those and dodge his flying attack. I find dodging to the left works well most of the time.

Another good idea is to carry a fast weapon. I can't beat him with anything slower than a greatsword, they just don't do high enough damage per swing. In NG+ with a level 200 character I had to resort to the good old +10 Dark Sword to take him.
 
I don't think this is a bad idea on principle, but magic should be quite a bit more powerful in order to justify the tradeoff. As it stands right now, it's not worth sacrificing heals for.

Magic should also be a helluva lot faster considering the Heavy Soul Arrow does something like one GS swing worth of damage to most DLC enemies but takes at least 3 times longer to perform. They just made so many drawbacks to caster players: high stat investment, not able to wear much armor, have to fill all your ring slots with magic related items, able to get a good staff only late game and then you have estus sharing and can't choose spells to suit the situation like you can with any other weapon.

From seems to hate ranged combat in general considering bows do fuck all damage most of the time too.
 
He's easier if you fight him on the dune slopes. He misses a bit more often. Generally the attack that kills you is the one that spawns those projectiles that turn into lightning strike spots, just gets really confusing to see what is going on. Just get far away from those and dodge his flying attack. I find dodging to the left works well most of the time.

Another good idea is to carry a fast weapon. I can't beat him with anything slower than a greatsword, they just don't do high enough damage per swing. In NG+ with a level 200 character I had to resort to the good old +10 Dark Sword to take him.

Oh I am playing on NG+...maybe I should go farm and increase my level first. I'm barely doing 200 damage per swing with Ornstein spear which is supposed to be my hardest hitting weapon right now. Thanks for the advice too, I'll give it another try!
 
Small tip for Gael's 3rd phase lightning. He can be struck by lightning just like you can. It's tough to get him into the right spot, but if you notice he's circled around one, just wait for lightning to strike and then go nuts on him while he's paralyzed for a few seconds.

I also found it easier to fight him where you start phase 2. The dunes annoyed me because I always prefer a level playing field. That said, I was able to dodge everything in phase 1 most times and make it to phase 2 without ever getting hit. I still wouldn't fight him on the hill in phase 2 or 3, though.
 
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