• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Dark Souls Remastered checkerboard rendering is a good reminder that most console games really don't run at 1080p let alone 4k

dirthead

Prefix: dog
Jul 24, 2018
1,739
1,374
565

This video gives you a nice overview of checkerboard rendering, which is used almost universally in PS4 and Xbox One games. It's essentially this generation's interlacing. A ton of data is being lost every frame because games are just rendering half the data and filling in the gaps with information from the previous frame.

Here's a quotation from one of the developers in the video:

I would also like to add that while the difference in quality is pretty obvious in the slides when they get pointed out, Digital Foundry's in depth tech review didn't notice the checkerboard rendering and went on to say that the game ran in native 1800p on the pro consoles. Something I am quite proud of. :)
 

FranXico

Member
Dec 7, 2010
6,257
2,332
855
Almost universally?

I always thought CB was only used for higher resolutions (above 1080p). Most base console games just drop the resolution (commonly down to 900p) to maintain performance.
 
Last edited:

Tesseract

Crushed by Thanos
Dec 7, 2008
34,733
7,130
1,340
yeah it's stupid garbage, i'd rather they used tsaa and pace optimization with sampling to steady 1080p at the cost of some flickering AO

it's w/e though, generation is almost over

YOU DONE FUCKED UP
 

Soltype

Member
Mar 30, 2015
1,773
417
410
First they took framerate, then resolution, whats next?Hope consoles can stop faking the funk next gen.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Salvatron

VertigoOA

Member
Jan 15, 2018
1,471
1,274
430
I’ve only seen checkerboarding used well in few games. However, there are moments in those same games in which you can find its tricks here and there. I’m indifferent mostly... anytime a game is rendered at above standard hd res... I notice and appreciate the improvement in clarity.

I’m more excited to see hdr used more prominently.

Is there anything other than gaming that pushes these new tv sets anyway?
 

TheAdmiester

Member
Jan 28, 2014
5,833
174
420
I’ve never seen checkerboarding work well. It’s always noticeable, making the image softer with heavy ghosting. It’s something I can’t ignore when I play a game because ruins the quality almost as badly as TAA.

Hopefully next gen will be the gen of actual native resolution and real AA, but I’m not expecting it.
 

VertigoOA

Member
Jan 15, 2018
1,471
1,274
430
I’ve never seen checkerboarding work well. It’s always noticeable, making the image softer with heavy ghosting. It’s something I can’t ignore when I play a game because ruins the quality almost as badly as TAA.

Hopefully next gen will be the gen of actual native resolution and real AA, but I’m not expecting it.
It works well in both destiny 2, deus ex and horizon. Certain lighting conditions (and usually those that make the best use of hdr) expose it of course but I’d have to be like 2ft away from my set and it’s not so bothersome as it’s always a brief moment. Then again, the sub 60 framerates of those games probably help hide it all too.

I appreciate that there able to do it with underpowered tech. It’s more of an issue with pro than x. I think only a handful of x games use cb rendering. I’m contemplating switching to x for destiny in September because I just want to play it in native 4k.
 
Last edited:
Jan 16, 2011
1,619
212
620
Sony and MS should be sued for false advertising. The Pro consoles are only good for loading times and fps increase in some cases. 4K does not belong to this generation.
 

~Fake

Gold Member
Dec 20, 2018
2,497
2,255
525
Rio de Janeiro
Almost universally?

I always thought CB was only used for higher resolutions (above 1080p). Most base console games just drop the resolution (commonly down to 900p) to maintain performance.
Not only that, but Ubisoft use temporal injection to reach 1920x1080 as well.
I partically don't like this method.
 

o'dium

Gold Member
Oct 24, 2017
1,602
1,863
530
Telford, Shropshire
www.overdose-game.com
Checkerboard is a decent trick, and I hope next gen games use it as a fall back, I.e run in native 4k and then drop to checkerboard when performance drops.

But anybody with a decent tv and size will tell you it’s not anywhere near as good as native in motion. Plus once you factor in alpha surfaces, you essentially go to mess city.
 

FranXico

Member
Dec 7, 2010
6,257
2,332
855
Few native 4k games like wipe out omega.
Wipeout Omega falls back with dynamic resolution if it can't keep 60fps. Which surprisingly hardly ever happens. 4k at 60fps is a rare thing, but WO pulled it off.
 
Last edited:

Daymos

Member
Jul 26, 2013
314
195
380
It's all a stupid advertising game. Even the term '4k' is stupid.. it's freaking 2160p.. It's also a waste of processing power IMO. At least use 1440 or 1620 or whatever, 1/2 a step resolution, as a standard and give affordable gaming tech a chance to hit 60fps. The only reason gamers hang on to the term 4k! is because it's been forced down our throats as some manifest destiny/holy objective by the industry.
 

Romulus

Member
Mar 21, 2019
691
658
295
Wipeout Omega falls back with dynamic resolution if it can't keep 60fps. Which surprisingly hardly ever happens. 4k at 60fps is a rare thing, but WO pulled it off.
Isn't it essentially a last gen game? I know for sure it's one the best implementations on psvr I've ever seen.
 

radewagon

Member
Nov 11, 2016
302
252
280
It's all a stupid advertising game. Even the term '4k' is stupid.. it's freaking 2160p.. It's also a waste of processing power IMO. At least use 1440 or 1620 or whatever, 1/2 a step resolution, as a standard and give affordable gaming tech a chance to hit 60fps. The only reason gamers hang on to the term 4k! is because it's been forced down our throats as some manifest destiny/holy objective by the industry.
I mean, I can only speak for myself, but the reason that I, personally, hang on to the term 4K is because that is the native resolution of my television. From years of experience, typically, content looks best when it is rendering at the native resolution of my display. Be it my 4k set or the diminutive PSVita, hitting that native resolution target makes the picture quality sing. That said, the checkerboarding, while nice, usually has a hint of softness that gives it away. Native 4k is sharp enough to cut yourself on.
 
Feb 15, 2018
1,415
911
370
United States
Wipeout Omega falls back with dynamic resolution if it can't keep 60fps. Which surprisingly hardly ever happens. 4k at 60fps is a rare thing, but WO pulled it off.
I knew the original wipe out HD on ps3 was dynamic but I never heard about omega being dynamic ; df didn't mention it and I never noticed it.

It does use checkerboard 4k if you choose to enable motion blur but it looks like crap so definitely turn it off
 

Shifty.

Gold Member
Sep 25, 2015
6,630
4,696
650
Somewhere in space
As will ever be the case with computing techniques that attempt to create something from nothing ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Also damn, a dirthead thread that's actually decent. A winged pig just flew past my window!
 

FranXico

Member
Dec 7, 2010
6,257
2,332
855
I knew the original wipe out HD on ps3 was dynamic but I never heard about omega being dynamic ; df didn't mention it and I never noticed it.
They did mention it.
Curiously though, there are actually two 4K modes available. With motion blur enabled, the Omega Collection defaults to a 2160p checkerboard presentation. However, turn off the effect and WipEout moves to a full, native 4K output. Previously, PR from Sony has indicated that a dynamic resolution framebuffer is in effect, but thus far, our measurements have yet to find anything other than a full-fat 8.3m pixel output in effect at all times.
 

Mildudon

Member
Nov 19, 2012
379
177
465
"but if i had to pick between a lower native resolution or a higher checkerboard resolution. I would pick checkerboarding every time."

 
  • Fire
Reactions: Agent_4Seven

FranXico

Member
Dec 7, 2010
6,257
2,332
855
Isn't it essentially a last gen game? I know for sure it's one the best implementations on psvr I've ever seen.
It's a port of a PS3 (and Vita) game, but it had redone assets for 4K and framerate was given priority.
 

~Fake

Gold Member
Dec 20, 2018
2,497
2,255
525
Rio de Janeiro
"but if i had to pick between a lower native resolution or a higher checkerboard resolution. I would pick checkerboarding every time."

Dunno if you understand that afirmation, but he said about 'lower assents/options' (low texture, low lod, low others graphics) vs high graphic options.
And even put the graphics to 'low' does not guarantee the game will run at native resolution. Its up to devs/game engine.
 

Alebrije

Member
Feb 25, 2010
8,948
381
815
Spects on consoles ( specially the marketed ones) are like fuel consume on cars, companies say your car will consume "X" gallons per mile but in reality you know its just a marketing tool. 4k its a marketing tool this generation specially if we talk about native 4k.

Being honest most of consumers do not care, I lke how games look and perform on my XboneX. People that really needs a 4k native experience including high spects need to move to PC. and do not care about expending more money ir order to get those spects.
 
Last edited:

dirthead

Prefix: dog
Jul 24, 2018
1,739
1,374
565
It's bullshit OP, majority of PS4 games are 1080 native (check DF articles). CB is mostly used in resolutions above 1080p.
Read the original post. DF was literally cited by one of these developers. DF didn't even notice that DS:R used checkerboard rendering (so much for DF).
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: TLZ
May 16, 2019
63
68
185
That's what happens when you have netbook-level CPUs. Hopefully things are better next gen with Ryzen CPUs in both consoles.

Still, games like God of War and Horizon in checkerboard 4K look absolutely delicious on my OLED.
 
  • Like
  • LOL
Reactions: TLZ and SonGoku

Mildudon

Member
Nov 19, 2012
379
177
465
Dunno if you understand that afirmation, but he said about 'lower assents/options' (low texture, low lod, low others graphics) vs high graphic options.
And even put the graphics to 'low' does not guarantee the game will run at native resolution. Its up to devs/game engine.
You will have point me to were in the video he says that in context to what he he said at 33:54.
It comes of to me like that higher resolution is always better and frame rate and frame timing have to suffer for lack of a better word to get a higher resolution. I am personally against that. Performance should come first.

And thank you for talking down to me it always heightens the conversation.
 

~Fake

Gold Member
Dec 20, 2018
2,497
2,255
525
Rio de Janeiro
You will have point me to were in the video he says that in context to what he he said at 33:54.
It comes of to me like that higher resolution is always better and frame rate and frame timing have to suffer for lack of a better word to get a higher resolution. I am personally against that. Performance should come first.

And thank you for talking down to me it always heightens the conversation.
I agree with you, but that quote lack of information. 'lower native resolution''? Does this even exist to the matter?
Again its from both sides, even put a lower resolution don't garantee stable perfomance or higher graphic options. Better? Maybe, actually most of the time.
 

Armorian

Member
Jan 17, 2018
785
578
360
Read the original post. DF was literally cited by one of these developers. DF didn't even notice that DS:R used checkerboard rendering (so much for DF).
Could be, good reconstruction can be hard to spot but there are only handful of games with CB (or similar techniques) at 1080p or below. DF is not always 100% correct but it's not a suprise as modern games are a mess to pixel count (TAA...) and I don't think last gen remaster was given much priority.

That's what happens when you have netbook-level CPUs. Hopefully things are better next gen with Ryzen CPUs in both consoles.

Still, games like God of War and Horizon in checkerboard 4K look absolutely delicious on my OLED.
CPU have nothing to do with resolution.
 

~Fake

Gold Member
Dec 20, 2018
2,497
2,255
525
Rio de Janeiro
The CPU is responsible for feeding the GPU information on what to render. A slow CPU will bottleneck a fast GPU, even at high resolutions.
Bottleneck happens even with a high end cpu mind you. Its just like saying if you get a most expensive high end gpu 'stutter' will not happen.
 
Last edited:

Armorian

Member
Jan 17, 2018
785
578
360
The CPU is responsible for feeding the GPU information on what to render. A slow CPU will bottleneck a fast GPU, even at high resolutions.
Weak CPU will limit general framerate of the game, so if game struggles to maintain 30 fps in 720p because of CPU it will do the same at 4K (granted they are resources to render game in this resolution).
 
May 16, 2019
63
68
185
Bottleneck happens even with a high end cpu mind you. Its just like saying if you get a most expensive high end gpu 'stutter' will not happen.
Oh I know. Faster CPU = better 1% low FPS = better perceived "smoothness" which is IMO more important than raw average FPS stats.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ~Fake

Lort

Member
Jul 9, 2017
810
540
360
you do know that the XB1X is not powerful enough to hit 4K in a lot of titles too, right? It still uses checkerboard rendering. Just less than the PS4 Pro.

PC says Hi ;)
Most Pcs are not powerful enough to play most games at 4k.. most pcs are less powerful than pro consoles. Consoles have FAR more people who play at 4k because very few people connect pcs to tvs and instead have low resolution monitors.

Sorry but thats the truth and the surveys done here at neogaf agree with that.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Panajev2001a

Soltype

Member
Mar 30, 2015
1,773
417
410
Most Pcs are not powerful enough to play most games at 4k.
True
most pcs are less powerful than pro consoles.
If we're talking about people who play pc games, then no.Just looking at the steam survey shows way more people with GPUs better than the Pro.Sony said 1 in 5 ps4s sold is a pro.Best case scenario that's 18 million consoles if we use total sales.
Consoles have FAR more people who play at 4k because very few people connect pcs to tvs and instead have low resolution monitors.

Sorry but thats the truth and the surveys done here at neogaf agree with that.
True, way more people play consoles on 4k sets, they are most likely not playing a game rendered at 4K though.
 

Lort

Member
Jul 9, 2017
810
540
360
True

If we're talking about people who play pc games, then no.Just looking at the steam survey shows way more people with GPUs better than the Pro.Sony said 1 in 5 ps4s sold is a pro.Best case scenario that's 18 million consoles if we use total sales.

True, way more people play consoles on 4k sets, they are most likely not playing a game rendered at 4K though.

The use of 4k on pc is 1% ... 13% still play on 1366x768 and the huge majority play at 1080p so we can safely say for sure the pc is a “1080p” machine.

If you play on xbox one x your prob playing one of these games ... https://m.ranker.com/list/most-popular-xbox-one-games-today/ranker-games .. almost all of which are true 4k .. some are dynamic res and mostly 4k and none are cb.

If your playing xbox one x your most likely playing in true 4k.
 

Doczu

Member
Aug 17, 2012
2,351
379
520
Poland
Hey @dark10x could you comment on this revelation? No cheap shot, really curious about the DS remaster cb rendering, sounds like this is one of the best implementation.
 

SonGoku

Member
Aug 16, 2018
3,500
3,309
550
Almost universally?

I always thought CB was only used for higher resolutions (above 1080p). Most base console games just drop the resolution (commonly down to 900p) to maintain performance.
From what I've read it's pretty much ubiquitous even at 1080p.
From what I've read it's pretty much ubiquitous even at 1080p. Consoles really aren't that fast.
I think you confused 1800p with 1080p...
Read the original post. DF was literally cited by one of these developers. DF didn't even notice that DS:R used checkerboard rendering (so much for DF).
on 1800p
You should read it
It's all a stupid advertising game. Even the term '4k' is stupid.. it's freaking 2160p.. It's also a waste of processing power IMO. At least use 1440 or 1620 or whatever, 1/2 a step resolution, as a standard and give affordable gaming tech a chance to hit 60fps. The only reason gamers hang on to the term 4k! is because it's been forced down our throats as some manifest destiny/holy objective by the industry.
Nobody is forcing you to buy a 4k display
You can play on a 1440p display perfectly fine with your midrange hw
 
Last edited:

TLZ

Member
Oct 20, 2015
6,054
3,255
740
Sydney

This video gives you a nice overview of checkerboard rendering, which is used almost universally in PS4 and Xbox One games. It's essentially this generation's interlacing. A ton of data is being lost every frame because games are just rendering half the data and filling in the gaps with information from the previous frame.

Here's a quotation from one of the developers in the video:
Wow. So all those Digital Foundry videos are unrealiable.
 
  • Like
Reactions: dirthead

Cheezeus

Member
Oct 24, 2017
81
64
190
I think you confused 1800p with 1080p...

on 1800p
You should read it

Nobody is forcing you to buy a 4k display
You can play on a 1440p display perfectly fine with your midrange hw
Unfortunately, as someone who prefers to play on large displays, there are little (no?) options for 1440p at 50"+.