Support NeoGAF

[onQ123]

Ya know what really sucks? Extremely fanboys thinking you hate their preferred platform. Xbox fans think we hate Xbox, PS4 fanatics (ie - thelastword) think we hate PS4 and Nintendo fans think we're too hard on Switch. Don't get me started on the shit we get from AMD fans. Ya'll are crazy and make things a lot less pleasant than they should be.

Also, I understand people get attached to companies and plastic boxes, I've been there in the past but it's worth trying to get past it and embrace everything. Learn to love them all. I certainly do now.


This is 100% false, by the way.


So is this. Like, holy shit.

Every video I make is made in isolation from my house. What's said is what I wrote - nobody is deciding what's in there but me.

If higher-ups ever tried to do this, I'd leave in a second. That I get to basically make whatever I want is one of the things I enjoy most. The situation you describe would be HORRIBLE.

Maybe y'all can run a test with the Anthem PC demo or Ace Combat using different GPUs one with double rate fp16 & one without it to see if that's where the change is coming from.

 

[RoboFu]

What is wrong with YT titles? C’mon.

Seriously? Most YouTube titles are click bait my as they come. Even Chanel’s like Linus tech tips use very click baity titles and it’s mostly because they hire consultants.

 

[ethomaz]

Far cry doesn’t use it.

Yes FarCry 5 does lol

Now you entered in the lie claims... you can have your (wrong) opinion about FP16 use in games but straight lie about a fact is ridiculous.

It even show in benchmarks.

“Far Cry 5's use of rapid-packed math (double-rate FP16) is one such title. RTX 2060 is faster than 1070 Ti but it's one of the few titles where Vega can still compete against the new Turing offering.” - Eurogame 2019 RTX 2060 review

 

[dark10x]

It just seems odd that a big corporation like eurogamer wouldn’t step in with guidance. If they don’t then that’s good but

Well, DF is four people and we all work remotely. EG isn't that involved and isn't even that big, honestly.

The company that owns EG lets everyone just do their own thing.

 

[CuNi]

I swear, I left this thread yesterday and it was at least some what civilized, but I see it turned into a shit show. I'm not surprised the last word wrote up a biography about why he loves PlayStation over Xbox but the grasping for straws is strong in this thread. Yes the games perform better, but I bet it's like many already said due to optimization and I even understand why that is. If you look at PS4 to XOX ratio, it's just more worth to optimize for PS4 brand. But to call a workaround a "godsend" is hilarious. So when you habe a pro that is actually marketed as a 4k console and you must force it to play in 1080p its a godsend of a feature but when Nvidia needs to do the same with RTX it's a joke and nobody should buy it... OHHHH the irony in this. Unbelievable.

 

[Fake]

Well, DF is four people and we all work remotely. EG isn't that involved and isn't even that big, honestly.

The company that owns EG lets everyone just do their own thing.

EG have their weaks, but its nice to them to let you make your projects.

 

[CrustyBritches]

I remember Digital Foundry's dark10x and the ritualistic animal sacrifices they made to the holy algorithm for more clicks.

 

[Fake]

Are people really saying John make videos like Digital Foundry RETRO (with is my favorite aspect of DF by a large margin) because someone at the top tell him to do it? Wow. ConspiracyGaf strikes again.

 

[ethomaz]

Seriously? Most YouTube titles are click bait my as they come. Even Chanel’s like Linus tech tips use very click baity titles and it’s mostly because they hire consultants.

Like I said I see no issue.

Titles are made to generate impact and interest to readers or watchers... so if you read/watch you will clearly understand the title.

Titles are not made to hurt your console choice... if a title hurts you then the problem is not the title.

 

[Thiagosc777]

I'm not sure two Japanese games and a beta constitutes a trend.

Well, at least is good for clicks.

 

[onQ123]

When y'all say not optimized for Xbox One X do y'all mean the devs forgot to take shortcuts to make up for Xbox One X lower pixel fillrate?

 

[n0razi]

occams razor:

Its mostly from Japanese devs and Japan gives 2 shits about xbox

 

[onQ123]

Guess we can mark "weak ass Jaguar CPU" off the list of reasons

 

[DeepEnigma]

Guess we can mark "weak ass Jaguar CPU" off the list of reasons

Short synopsis?

 

[alabtrosMyster]

...but we've never talked to any consultants, that's the thing. We've never used them before and have no plans to.

Sorry then, it's the Youtube format (around 10 minutes per videos, click bait titles, etc.) take it as a mark of professionalism in some way then.

 

[Armorian]

Game runs badly on 1060/580, there are no significant performance increases with lower settings and 2080ti in 4K pulls ~40 fps.

Game is also heavy on CPU

 

[onQ123]

Short synopsis?

They used a i5 8400 with RX 580 at 1080P & the frame rate was in the 40's

 

[DeepEnigma]

They used a i5 8400 with RX 580 at 1080P & the frame rate was in the 40's

Isn't that a 3Ghz CPU?

 

[kingbean]

Isn't that a 3Ghz CPU?

It's a shit load faster than a Jaguar cpu.

That being said my roommates i5 4690 (non-k) is pegged at 100% and keeps his GPU from using 100% and doesn't maintain 60fps at all with a gtx1080.

 

[DeepEnigma]

It's a shit load faster than a Jaguar cpu.

That being said my roommates i5 4690 (non-k) is pegged at 100% and keeps his GPU from using 100% and doesn't maintain 60fps at all with a gtx1080.

Then I'm confused by O onQ123 's comment about the Jaguar. Unless he is saying it is one of the reasons?

 

[Mista]

I’ve noticed this too and I find it weird. It’s mostly bad optimization nothing more

 

[kingbean]

Then I'm confused by O onQ123 's comment about the Jaguar. Unless he is saying it is one of the reasons?

I couldn't really say. But it was pegging his CPU so hard that discord kept breaking up. My friend with an i7 6700k and I with a i5 8600k didn't have any issues.

Could be that the game likes cores and the jaguar is 8 shit cores vs the 4 good cores in the i5 4690.

 

[onQ123]

Then I'm confused by O onQ123 's comment about the Jaguar. Unless he is saying it is one of the reasons?

I'm saying that it's not the weak CPUs holding the Xbox One X & PS4 Pro back in this game because PS4 Pro in 1080P mode was running just as good as a PC with a better CPU & 6TF GPU.

 

[Toe-Knee]

I couldn't really say. But it was pegging his CPU so hard that discord kept breaking up. My friend with an i7 6700k and I with a i5 8600k didn't have any issues.

Could be that the game likes cores and the jaguar is 8 shit cores vs the 4 good cores in the i5 4690.

I had a fluctuating 55-60 by a ryzen 1600 and r9 290

 

[DeepEnigma]

I'm saying that it's not the weak CPUs holding the Xbox One X & PS4 Pro back in this game because PS4 Pro in 1080P mode was running just as good as a PC with a better CPU & 6TF GPU.

Gotcha. But what graphical settings were they running in comparison as well? The consoles look heavily downgraded compared to the PC, which still looks downgraded compared to the E3 bullshit video.

 

[LittleBusters]

Both CPUs are gimped. Neither can do 4K/60fps(Forza aside). Next gen is going to be 4K/60fps/high settings for everything. No more gimped CPUs!

 

[Dontero]

The question arises; is fp16 code becoming a bigger part of the landscape as more hardware supports it, and likely next gen will too. A valid talking point based on the thread topic.

Not really. FP16 is simply not some holy grail like some people believe it is.
Which is why i roll eyes when someone says "8TF fp16" like it means something.
When people talk about 4TF fp32 it actually means something because most of the tasks are done in fp32.
This is a difference here.

FP16 is basically another shader/async/smalltechnique that leads to more performant engine.
But you need to combite a lot of those tools together to make i faster as alone will not yield some amazing results.

 

[LittleBusters]

occams razor:

Its mostly from Japanese devs and Japan gives 2 shits about xbox

Which is what Phil Spencer is working on. Turn it from 99% don't give 2 shits to maybe 95% don't give 2 shits. I know that's laughable to you, but that 4% can matter to XBox.

 

[onQ123]

I couldn't really say. But it was pegging his CPU so hard that discord kept breaking up. My friend with an i7 6700k and I with a i5 8600k didn't have any issues.

Could be that the game likes cores and the jaguar is 8 shit cores vs the 4 good cores in the i5 4690.

You might be on to something .

 

[StreetsofBeige]

I'm sure this trend with go far..... sort of like the "trend" when some Xbox One games ran better or had better AF than PS4 games in year one.

Give it a few more games and PS Pro game might be better than RTX PCs.

 

[Armorian]

I’ve noticed this too and I find it weird. It’s mostly bad optimization nothing more

Badly optimized game will run better on more powerful hardware and these consoles have pretty much same components (GPU, CPU and RAM arch.), X1X is just faster at everything (aside FP16 LOL). Only real difference is API they use.

 

[onQ123]

Gotcha. But what graphical settings were they running in comparison as well? The consoles look heavily downgraded compared to the PC, which still looks downgraded compared to the E3 bullshit video.

They said that going from Ultra to High didn't really make a difference in performance but going to Medium & Low boosted the performance above over 60fps but it looked really bad.

 

[Silver Wattle]

My god you are boring as f**k!

That's a bit harsh, I personally find him mildly entertaining.

 

[Comfortgel]

Though that begs the question, why is the game less optimized for the XB1 X than for the PS4 Pro?

Userbase / installed units.

 

[dogen]

Badly optimized game will run better on more powerful hardware and these consoles have pretty much same components (GPU, CPU and RAM arch.), X1X is just faster at everything (aside FP16 LOL). Only real difference is API they use.

A commenter on beyond3d mentioned that the SimulSky UE4 plugin that AC7 uses (and other games like driveclub, not sure about anthem) is also part of Sony's SDK and very likely has had additional optimization done specifically for their hardware.

 

[Fake]

Guess we can mark "weak ass Jaguar CPU" off the list of reasons

short summary:
- Even with the low settings the i5 8400 + RX 580 at 1920x1080 can't archive stable 60.

 

[entremet]

Consultants?

This is super niche passion project stuff, not lowest common denominator stuff that people look to monetize on YT.

I like DF a lot by the way, but the conspiracy stuff is bananas.

 

[Orenji Neko]

Ya know what really sucks? Extremely fanboys thinking you hate their preferred platform. Xbox fans think we hate Xbox, PS4 fanatics (ie - thelastword) think we hate PS4 and Nintendo fans think we're too hard on Switch. Don't get me started on the shit we get from AMD fans. Ya'll are crazy and make things a lot less pleasant than they should be.

Also, I understand people get attached to companies and plastic boxes, I've been there in the past but it's worth trying to get past it and embrace everything. Learn to love them all. I certainly do now.

For what it's worth, I think you guys do a great job. Can't believe people are going for conspiracies, but then you don't find any sort of defensible, rational thinking when it comes to fanboys.

 

[Spukc]

wtf

I think there's more than enough evidence showing that's it's not just 3 games, where PRO has better perf over XBONEX...People are now pretending like this has only happened in the last few PRO vs XBONEX faceoffs......There's so much Vgtech data out there, with actual stats, there's no need to be disingenuous about it.....It seems like I've been saying another game where PRO offers better perf for quite a while now.........

Also better perf is better perf, Phil Spencer agrees, even if we have to use the OS feature......Yet, people are pretending that the PRO have only beaten XBONEX at 1080p settings, this is not true......Still the fact remains....The XBONEX is not as powerful as people thought it was, the hype fooled many...True 4k? Here, lately, it is doing Checkerboard like it owns it......A far cry really......What some of you Xfans need to do is to tweet Phil and let him know that you guys value perf over some 4k rez stamp...It makes no sense to push 4k or high rez, when your framerate tanks, fluidity and controller response always wins....

It's funny though seeing Leadbetter try to minimize the 1080p OS feature of PRO, saying it should be in-game...So if the devs never patches a game or offer a high framerate mode, we would be totally left at their mercy....At least the PRO's OS gives us the option, so give some praise to that instead of deflecting.....These guys are pretending that they can mandate what devs do, some devs gave various options like TR and others, many devs don't, you get one mode go, that's the reality...The PS4PRO OS features gives us a nice option to play with better perf, which is a godsend......Anthem at 1080p is clearly the way to go...Depend on a dev's patch, when? when people no longer play this online.......What about RDR2, PRO owners should just wait on a fixed checkerboard patch? When will it come? when I decide I will never play this game again because of input latency and a myriad of issues? Hell, even in that game, the only place you get 30fps locked is on PRO and the XBONEX falls to lower minimums over the PRO in the 4k mode (according to Vgtech)......Chasing 4k and higher rez is the XBONEX achilles heel, but when you hype a rez so much, you have to put pressure on the devs to comply......

Yet, what's strangest in all of this, is why all the hoopla now," because the most powerful, true 4k XBOX is losing faceoffs"...So much deflecting when PRO wins, oh PRO got more optimization over XBOX, really? PRO is just a more customized piece of hardware, do you believe if PRO does CB and XBONEX does CB, XBONEX won't have to pull more resources to do CB over PRO? Not all games are the same obviously and whilst some games will use XBONEX bandwidth and you will see the results and that divide in rez, others will not shine so much, if the game is using some PRO features, things can be a bit different.........Now lets get this straight, I agree that XBONEX is more powerful kit, but the divide is not as big as some people think, yet, each console has it's strength.....

Still, the hypocrisy baffles me, I see those DF guys so animated and disappointed everytime XBONEX losees a faceoff......Yet I never saw that level of disappointment when PS4 got the short end of the stick over XBONE, which funny enough can barely do 720p these days, whilst PS4 holds it's own, but back then, I never saw DF wage fire when Witcher 3 performed better on XBOX, when Resident Evil Revelation 2 performed worse on PS4 by 20fps, when Unity and others Ubisoft games were at the same rez as XBOX and performed worse.......They just fan that fire, giving so many incorrect takes on CPU bound issues with PS4.......So what's up with XBONES's cpu over PS4 now? All I'm hearing in so many faceoffs is; "I expect more from XBOX", just looping over the entire faceoff, Look at Ace combat......or in other faceoffs where XBONEX has worse framerate, some of these guys still expect higher resolutions when the XBOX is already dropping perf, just hilarious stuff.....What's good for the goose is good for the gander, is all I'm saying...

You are the back bone of neogaf and you deserve a tag bless!

Ya know what really sucks? Extremely fanboys thinking you hate their preferred platform. Xbox fans think we hate Xbox, PS4 fanatics (ie - thelastword) think we hate PS4 and Nintendo fans think we're too hard on Switch. Don't get me started on the shit we get from AMD fans. Ya'll are crazy and make things a lot less pleasant than they should be.

Also, I understand people get attached to companies and plastic boxes, I've been there in the past but it's worth trying to get past it and embrace everything. Learn to love them all. I certainly do now.


This is 100% false, by the way.


So is this. Like, holy shit.

Every video I make is made in isolation from my house. What's said is what I wrote - nobody is deciding what's in there but me.

If higher-ups ever tried to do this, I'd leave in a second. That I get to basically make whatever I want is one of the things I enjoy most. The situation you describe would be HORRIBLE.

This seems pretty legit. But my tinfoil hat deflects these lies. Btw thanks for that doom episode, (snes one was the best) Please keep posting on neogaf. Thank you.

 

[FranXico]

Both CPUs are gimped. Neither can do 4K/60fps(Forza aside). Next gen is going to be 4K/60fps/high settings for everything. No more gimped CPUs!

Amen to that.

 

[dogen]

Amen to that.

Except those CPUs can do 4k60 in any game that already runs at 60 fps, given a powerful enough GPU.

 

[onQ123]

I think I know what's going on now: The PS4 Pro is no longer playing patched PS4 games because now PS4 Pro is the target consoles.


Before PS4 Pro had the hardest role of staying true to PS4 graphics & performance while rendering at higher resolutions but now that games are being made to PS4 Pro specs devs are getting more out of it.

In turn it's pushing the base PS4 to it's limits where it's either below 60fps or below 1080P which put the Xbox One in a strange place where it's being pushed down to 720P or bad frame rates trying to keep up with PS4. Then Xbox One X has to make the best out of a Xbox One game that's coming from 720P or using reconstruction techniques to reach 1080P.

 

[Thiagosc777]

I think I know what's going on now: The PS4 Pro is no longer playing patched PS4 games because now PS4 Pro is the target consoles.


Before PS4 Pro had the hardest role of staying true to PS4 graphics & performance while rendering at higher resolutions but now that games are being made to PS4 Pro specs devs are getting more out of it.

In turn it's pushing the base PS4 to it's limits where it's either below 60fps or below 1080P which put the Xbox One in a strange place where it's being pushed down to 720P or bad frame rates trying to keep up with PS4. Then Xbox One X has to make the best out of a Xbox One game that's coming from 720P or using reconstruction techniques to reach 1080P.

This is the most delusional thing I have ever read.

This is purely technical. The X1X will always beat the PS4 Pro, because it is better than it in every way.

BTW, these "better performances" you see on the Pro, are the games running at lower resolutions, similarly to games that performed better on the X1 in comparison to the PS4. But I don't think anyone who bought a PS4 Pro wants to run games at 1080p. The promise was 4k gaming, and they didn't deliver it.

 

[onQ123]

This is the most delusional thing I have ever read.

This is purely technical. The X1X will always beat the PS4 Pro, because it is better than it in every way.

BTW, these "better performances" you see on the Pro, are the games running at lower resolutions, similarly to games who performed better on the X1 in comparison to the PS4. But I don't think anyone who bought a PS4 Pro wants to run games at 1080p. The promise was 4k gaming, and they didn't deliver it.

No it's not PS4 Pro has a higher pixel fillrate of 58 GP/s vs Xbox One X 37 GP/s then there is PS4 Pro's higher fp16 rate & bespoke hardware on the GPU.

This stuff really exist no matter how much people try to dismiss it. Xbox One X has 4GB more GDDR5 Ram , 4 more CU's & higher clock rates on the CPU & GPU. Edit: And more cache


You can't ignore PS4 Pro advantages all together just because Xbox One X has more fp32 flops.

 

[Thiagosc777]

No it's not PS4 Pro has a higher pixel fillrate of 58 GP/s vs Xbox One X 37 GP/s then there is PS4 Pro's higher fp16 rate & bespoke hardware on the GPU.

This stuff really exist no matter how much people try to dismiss it. Xbox One X has more 4GB more GDDR5 Ram , 4 more CU's & higher clock rates on the CPU & GPU.


You can't ignore PS4 Pro advantages all together just because Xbox One X has more fp32 flops.

FP16? This is the power of the Cell all over again. No third party developer will spend time optimizing a game for one machine. All of that would be useless even for the base PS4.

And what is that fillrate? Last time I checked the X1X had no problems rendering AAA games in native 4k.

 

[onQ123]

FP16? This is the power of the Cell all over again. No third party developer will spend time optimizing a game for one machine. All of that would be useless even for the base PS4.

And what is that fillrate? Last time I checked the X1X had no problems rendering AAA games in native 4k.

Yes fp16 which is now double rate on all the newer PC GPUs & most likely will be a feature of the next gen consoles so it's going to be used more now & going forward.

The higher pixel fillrate come from having 64 ROPs vs Xbox One X 32 ROPs but Xbox One X's pixel fillrate is helped out by it's higher clock rate but PS4 Pro still has more. PS4 Pro's memory bandwidth keep it from fully taking advantage of that.

 

[CrustyBritches]

Resident Evil 2 has a simple explanation: it's a low-effort port of the PS4 version on both the Pro and the Xbox One X. I'd imagine the Pro and the Xbox One X run the game worse than even a RX 480 clocked to 911MHz core/1700MHz mem.

But it's more likely secret sauce FP16 operations. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Bogroll]

It seems it's been established this game is heavy on the GPU. Has anybody played both Pro and X ? I just have and X looks a lot cleaner to me and i know DF said 1800p on both but it don't look that way to me.

 

[The_Mike]

This thread is cool as long as thelastw...dang, too late.

Just put him on ignore, the forum will become a better place by doing that.

 

[The_Mike]

Ya know what really sucks? Extremely fanboys thinking you hate their preferred platform. Xbox fans think we hate Xbox, PS4 fanatics (ie - thelastword) think we hate PS4 and Nintendo fans think we're too hard on Switch. Don't get me started on the shit we get from AMD fans. Ya'll are crazy and make things a lot less pleasant than they should be.

I don't think fanboys think we hate their preferred platform. I just think they hate any platform they aren't fan of.

Thats how I read them anyways