Dark1x of Digital Foundry says that he noticed a odd trend of a few games starting to perform better on PS4 Pro than Xbox One X

May 1, 2010
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The amateurs at Microsoft of course don't know about Jaguar CPU features, they still use the 32 bit mnemonics, only Sony is able to use all features of their hardware :D
That's far from what I'm saying & in fact I'm expecting Xbox One & other devices to get a big boost over the next year or so when DirectML is released
 
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For everyone's information and reading......Checkerboard Rendering was actually implemented in the Frostbite Engine many moons ago, several frostbite games have used the technology.....It even supports Dynamic Resolution CB, which may even be a case here in Anthem....

"Checkerboard rendering is a relatively new technique, popularized recently by the introduction of the PlayStation 4 Pro. Many modern game engines are adding support for it right now, and in this talk, Graham will present an in-depth look at the new implementation in Frostbite, which is used in shipping titles like ‘Battlefield 1′ and ‘Mass Effect Andromeda’. Despite being conceptually simple, checkerboard rendering requires a deep integration into the post-processing chain, in particular temporal anti-aliasing, dynamic resolution scaling, and poses various challenges to existing effects. This presentation will cover the basics of checkerboard rendering, explain the impact on a game engine that powers a wide range of titles, and provide a detailed look at how the current implementation in Frostbite works, including topics like object id, alpha unrolling, gradient adjust, and a highly efficient depth resolve."

https://wccftech.com/mass-effect-an...d-gdc-2017-presentation-now-available-online/

The full PDF which explains the technique and how they've implemented it, how deep into the engine they went, and why they implemented it in many games is linked below.....Please check it out....


http://frostbite-wp-prd.s3.amazonaw...7/03/04173623/GDC-Checkerboard.compressed.pdf
 

Redneckerz

Those long posts don't cover that red neck boy
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For everyone's information and reading......Checkerboard Rendering was actually implemented in the Frostbite Engine many moons ago, several frostbite games have used the technology.....It even supports Dynamic Resolution CB, which may even be a case here in Anthem....

"Checkerboard rendering is a relatively new technique, popularized recently by the introduction of the PlayStation 4 Pro. Many modern game engines are adding support for it right now, and in this talk, Graham will present an in-depth look at the new implementation in Frostbite, which is used in shipping titles like ‘Battlefield 1′ and ‘Mass Effect Andromeda’. Despite being conceptually simple, checkerboard rendering requires a deep integration into the post-processing chain, in particular temporal anti-aliasing, dynamic resolution scaling, and poses various challenges to existing effects. This presentation will cover the basics of checkerboard rendering, explain the impact on a game engine that powers a wide range of titles, and provide a detailed look at how the current implementation in Frostbite works, including topics like object id, alpha unrolling, gradient adjust, and a highly efficient depth resolve."

https://wccftech.com/mass-effect-an...d-gdc-2017-presentation-now-available-online/

The full PDF which explains the technique and how they've implemented it, how deep into the engine they went, and why they implemented it in many games is linked below.....Please check it out....


http://frostbite-wp-prd.s3.amazonaw...7/03/04173623/GDC-Checkerboard.compressed.pdf
Can you address my post? Thanks.
 
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dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
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People should be honest here. Richard's first video on Anthem very specifically notes that res counts were PRELIMINARY and, due to the nature of the post-process pipeline, it was quite challenging. By the time I looked at it myself, I could see the issues. I don't think CBR is used here - the checkerboard pattern is present on PC as well and is directly caused by the post-processing. You can disable these things on consoles as well and the checkerboard issues seem to disappear.

Either way, Richard's first video even has an asterisk noting that the count was not complete. We weren't available to help pixel count yet and the examples are strange.

I think people also need to realize that resolution counting isn't so easy with the current mix of PP, TAA and dynamic res. There have been examples recently where other channels got things wrong that I got right and vice versa. Folks (well, one person specifically) should look at what was said in Rich's video before acting like a spoiled child. This passive aggressive behavior HAS to stop.
 
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People should be honest here. Richard's first video on Anthem very specifically notes that res counts were PRELIMINARY and, due to the nature of the post-process pipeline, it was quite challenging. By the time I looked at it myself, I could see the issues. I don't think CBR is used here - the checkerboard pattern is present on PC as well and is directly caused by the post-processing. You can disable these things on consoles as well and the checkerboard issues seem to disappear.

Either way, Richard's first video even has an asterisk noting that the count was not complete. We weren't available to help pixel count yet and the examples are strange.

I think people also need to realize that resolution counting isn't so easy with the current mix of PP, TAA and dynamic res. There have been examples recently where other channels got things wrong that I got right and vice versa. Folks (well, one person specifically) should look at what was said in Rich's video before acting like a spoiled child. This passive aggressive behavior HAS to stop.

Have fun Next gen trying to figure out what's going on with all the super resolution & AI techniques lol.
 
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You mean the fun to deal with all the armchair guess work and "evidence" that almost resemble Jeff Rigby level of misinformation and crap? That won't stop, for sure.
Why you mouthing off with personal attacks ? Jeff isn't even here you should really stick to talking about games & tech while in the gaming section
 
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When you bump resolution down to 1080p sure. KH3 and I think it was Anthem demo, they recommend PS4 pro with lowered resolution.
 
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I don’t think any GPU resource is used except for gaming while gaming.

It is 100% available for game while your screen is showing the game... of course if you shift do display the system menu or other app it will use a bit but that only happens when the game is in background.
What about OS/UI notifications? Don't they use any GPU resources at all?

You mean the fun to deal with all the armchair guess work and "evidence" that almost resemble Jeff Rigby level of misinformation and crap? That won't stop, for sure.
Haha, I miss Jeff Rigby and his wild conjecture posts!

Does he post on ResetERA?

Next gen will be a living hell to DF.
Next-gen will be all about 60 fps and crazy fast loading times.

Resolution wars will go the way of dodo. Remember DSLR megapixel wars? Same thing.
 
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Anyone else wish that developers would back of the 4k bandwagon and focus on 1080-1440p 120fps for next gen especially with the introduction of hdmi2.1 on tvs this year.
 
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Well I think its safe to say Japanese devs dont really give a shit about xbox. So they would spend more time and resources on Pro instead. However, I watched the RE2 analysis and they said X was the definitive way to play, so I'm puzzled by these recent comments.
Anthem feels like an anomaly.
 

BRZBlue

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120 fps is highly unlikely (unless you're talking about Doom or FH4).
Isn't there a bit of a growing gap between gaming fps and broadcast tv fps? I mean, people still want their "filmic" 24fps for their movies, so 120fps on an expensive home theater setup is pointless, meanwhile we have 240hz gaming monitors for gaming. Resolution is probably still going to be king daddy for a while, since relatively few living room displays are going to be that high on refresh. Lets not even talk about 8k, LOL.
 
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Isn't there a bit of a growing gap between gaming fps and broadcast tv fps? I mean, people still want their "filmic" 24fps for their movies, so 120fps on an expensive home theater setup is pointless, meanwhile we have 240hz gaming monitors for gaming. Resolution is probably still going to be king daddy for a while, since relatively few living room displays are going to be that high on refresh. Lets not even talk about 8k, LOL.
Jaguar 1.6 GHz -> Zen 3.2 GHz

That's 2x frequency + 50% IPC bump = 3x single-threaded performance

Games like Doom and FH4 could go up to 180 fps (if the Navi GPU can handle it).

Games like Fallout 76 or PUBG (15-20 fps) won't even reach steady 60 fps... unoptimized shit won't vanish just because Zen will replace Jaguar.
 

BRZBlue

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Jaguar 1.6 GHz -> Zen 3.2 GHz

That's 2x frequency + 50% IPC bump = 3x single-threaded performance

Games like Doom and FH4 could go up to 180 fps (if the Navi GPU can handle it).

Games like Fallout 76 or PUBG (15-20 fps) won't even reach steady 60 fps... unoptimized shit won't vanish just because Zen will replace Jaguar.
Why would they shoot for 180fps when they could shoot for higher resolution, more effects at 60, especially when most displays aren't even capable of it (yet)? PC is definitely a different story, but console games aren't going to be cranking that high I don't think.
 
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Why would they shoot for 180fps when they could shoot for higher resolution, more effects at 60, especially when most displays aren't even capable of it (yet)? PC is definitely a different story, but console games aren't going to be cranking that high I don't think.
Most console gamers have 60 Hz panels.

Very few TVs support 120 Hz (at 1080p).
 
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What about OS/UI notifications? Don't they use any GPU resources at all?
Uses CPU only... well it is sent to the GPU ROPs to diplay it but that is all... no GPU processing is used in the UI at all... of course that could change if they start to use a vectorial or 3D UI (even so the GPU processing use is pretty small)... Windows didn't use GPU for UI until Aero for example (and you can disable the GPU processing elements).

It was really a dumb ideia to use GPU to process the Kinect audio/move inputs in XB1... they got away with that pretty fast.
 
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People should be honest here. Richard's first video on Anthem very specifically notes that res counts were PRELIMINARY and, due to the nature of the post-process pipeline, it was quite challenging. By the time I looked at it myself, I could see the issues. I don't think CBR is used here - the checkerboard pattern is present on PC as well and is directly caused by the post-processing. You can disable these things on consoles as well and the checkerboard issues seem to disappear.

Either way, Richard's first video even has an asterisk noting that the count was not complete. We weren't available to help pixel count yet and the examples are strange.

I think people also need to realize that resolution counting isn't so easy with the current mix of PP, TAA and dynamic res. There have been examples recently where other channels got things wrong that I got right and vice versa. Folks (well, one person specifically) should look at what was said in Rich's video before acting like a spoiled child. This passive aggressive behavior HAS to stop.
This is why 'pixel counting' is a rather sad and pointless exercise, and you guys frame the results to kick of console wars each time you do it.

There is now so much more to visual fidelity than resoution that at the high end, pixel counting is becoming a redundant practice.
 
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PSVR games are simpler than open-world AAA experiences, so yeah, it will be easier for those.
Even next gen most TV's /monitors will still be 1080P in the beginning & the VR headsets will also be somewhere in between 1080 - 4K so they will have leeway to have a high frame rate mode in games.
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
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This is why 'pixel counting' is a rather sad and pointless exercise, and you guys frame the results to kick of console wars each time you do it.

There is now so much more to visual fidelity than resoution that at the high end, pixel counting is becoming a redundant practice.
Exactly. I hate that it’s the focus and why I place so little emphasis on it in my videos. It’s worth knowing but not hugely important these days.
 
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Diminishing returns on increased resolution and the difficulty of pixel counting are 2 different things. This thread is the perfect example of the benefit knowing the actual resolution over just calling it the same and postulating on a bunch of random secret sauce tech.

I'm a big fan of tech analysis from DF, NXgamer, and the like. But can we get a consensus on Anthem because NXgamer says checkerboarded 1800p(Pro) and 4K(X1X), and I'm interpreting DF as saying native 1800p(Pro) and 4K(X1X) with a post processing filter that artifacts along edges and presents as checkerboard rendering.

If you can disable the post-processing that creates that artifacting and the performance stays about the same, then it should not be checkerboard creating the effect, right?
 
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Lort

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I want all xbox one x games to run at 1800p with higher res, textures fx, good aa and a locked frame rate. ( + supporting free-sync).

Sony started this whole resolution war because the xbox 360 was always higher res than ps3 and they felt shamed. Its so hard to see the difference between true 4k and near 4k. Id just rather anthem have more foliage lol. ( and locked frame rate obviously).
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
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I'm a big fan of tech analysis from DF, NXgamer, and the like. But can we get a consensus on Anthem because NXgamer says checkerboarded 1800p(Pro) and 4K(X1X), and I'm interpreting DF as saying native 1800p(Pro) and 4K(X1X) with a post processing filter that artifacts along edges and presents as checkerboard rendering.
We cannot get a consensus yet as it's not 100% clear. There have been examples of Frostbite games showing CBR artefacts even when not using it. The PC version shows the same CBR patterns but is certainly not using it. You can eliminate those artefacts by disabling post-process effects, however.

So, for me, it could go either way. I'd expect CBR personally but it's not always clear with Frostbite (and we've spoken with Frostbite devs on this matter before - just not anyone at Bioware yet).
 
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I want all xbox one x games to run at 1800p with higher res, textures fx, good aa and a locked frame rate. ( + supporting free-sync).

Sony started this whole resolution war because the xbox 360 was always higher res than ps3 and they felt shamed. Its so hard to see the difference between true 4k and near 4k. Id just rather anthem have more foliage lol. ( and locked frame rate obviously).

It's easier to tell the difference between 3 &4 blocks than it is to tell the difference between 18 & 24 blocks & so on. some people can see a clear difference between 900P & 1080P but they will have a harder time seeing the difference between 1800P & 2160P.
 
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It's easier to tell the difference between 3 &4 blocks than it is to tell the difference between 18 & 24 blocks & so on. some people can see a clear difference between 900P & 1080P but they will have a harder time seeing the difference between 1800P & 2160P.
Diminishing returns or what?

Not to mention the majority still has 1080p displays...

Can't wait for silly resolution wars to end next-gen!
 
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Diminishing returns or what?

Not to mention the majority still has 1080p displays...

Can't wait for silly resolution wars to end next-gen!
It will never end, sadly. I wish more gamers were focused on framerate performance.

We are at a point where checkerboarding / reconstruction techniques are so discernible when done well, that I wish console manufacturers would push developers in that direction more for the sake of higher framerates and performance yields.

Not to mention you can get more bang for your buck with graphical effects.
 
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Bill O'Rights

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Why am i not surprised it did not get addressed.

FWIW, this right here sums up most people's issues with TLW.

Noted. @thelastword we have in many cases, rejected a lot of reports about your content, believing that although your posts were difficult to digest and were slanted to your preference, they were being made in good faith. We have, and continue to afford you the benefit of the doubt in the majority of cases. It's time to start to repaying that faith and goodwill going forward.


Having made this post, I am also aware that people don't spend every waking moment on the internet or you may have decided to just leave the thread (hence the mention - please do not take this as 'calling you out' or a passive aggressive threat). Going forward, we would expect to see more succinct assertions and more commitment to an actual readable point of view before launching into the tech deconstructions. Thanks :)


 
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Redneckerz

Those long posts don't cover that red neck boy
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Noted. @thelastword we have in many cases, rejected a lot of reports about your content, believing that although your posts were difficult to digest and were slanted to your preference, they were being made in good faith. We have, and continue to afford you the benefit of the doubt in the majority of cases. It's time to start to repaying that faith and goodwill going forward.


Having made this post, I am also aware that people don't spend every waking moment on the internet or you may have decided to just leave the thread (hence the mention - please do not take this as 'calling you out' or a passive aggressive threat). Going forward, we would expect to see more succinct assertions and more commitment to an actual readable point of view before launching into the tech deconstructions. Thanks :)


If this needs to be in a PM please tell me do, but what's with the barrels o' slack TLW gets? That stuff is rare and worth good dough.
 
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ArchaeEnkidu

Vincit qui se vincit
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If this needs to be in a PM please tell me do, but what's with the barrels o' slack TLW gets? That stuff is rare and worth good dough.
TLW doesn't act in a passive aggressive manner like a number of other fanboys. TLW can have discussions in an adult manner and has been acted on by the moderation in the past. Your claim is utterly unfounded, Red.
 
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Stop badgering other members and derailing threads with personal crap.
TLW doesn't act in a passive aggressive manner like a number of other fanboys. TLW can have discussions in an adult manner and has been acted on by the moderation in the past. Your claim is utterly unfounded, Red.
One of the issues with TLW is he never reply's to acknowledge something, for example. The next gen racing thread. TLW will say XBX achieves 4k 60fps on Forza 7 because it has 30fps mirrors. I say no it has 60fps mirrors, he totally ignores it then he pipes up a few weeks later saying the same thing. What the fuck is that all about.
It's all little things like that and i forgot lots more has i just don't read what he says now. It's no good for the threads or the forum and those of us who like to discuss the differences and he brings out the worst of a lot of us.
If he acts and treats people in real life like he does on here, Oh man he wouldn't be able to walk the streets.
 
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TLW doesn't act in a passive aggressive manner like a number of other fanboys. TLW can have discussions in an adult manner and has been acted on by the moderation in the past. Your claim is utterly unfounded, Red.
That’s bullshit, he argues in false faith (God I hate that phrase and he is a poster child for it).

He tries to use facts, when skewed in his favour, but if you call him out on false numbers he will never reply. Even when quoted or mentioned.

Like that false Gears vs Uncharted post from last week.
 
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Redneckerz

Those long posts don't cover that red neck boy
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TLW doesn't act in a passive aggressive manner like a number of other fanboys. TLW can have discussions in an adult manner and has been acted on by the moderation in the past. Your claim is utterly unfounded, Red.
I call BS on the bolded and here is why:
  1. I asked a question. i didn't claim anything in the post you quoted.
  2. I have a literal example as to why most people have issues with TLW, you cannot have missed this.
  3. I also have not claimed TLW is passive-aggressive. You are attributing words to me that i simply have not said.
  4. Lastly, if my claim is unfounded (If there even is a claim to begin with) then Bill O Rights would not have dedicated a post to this behavior.
All in all, i say by my example there is merit to what i have said. If it was unfounded, then there wouldn't be any literal examples, there would be no mod post, and there wouldn't be any other users acting with circumstantial commentary.

That’s bullshit, he argues in false faith (God I hate that phrase and he is a poster child for it).

He tries to use facts, when skewed in his favour, but if you call him out on false numbers he will never reply. Even when quoted or mentioned.

Like that false Gears vs Uncharted post from last week.
Agreed. And i didn't even call TLW out, i simply asked if he could address my post since it was a lengthy in-depth post but sadly at the bottom of the page.
 
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How

How can you still be with such crap? Performance is obviously impacted with resolution. The same game at 4k, vs the same game at 1080p, has better performance. One can go higher resolution while the other can’t.

Some people care more about performance than they do about resolutions so why ignore the better performance?

the only crap here is people like you trying to derail the thread.
 
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Some people care more about performance than they do about resolutions so why ignore the better performance?

the only crap here is people like you trying to derail the thread.
Derailing the thread?🤣 I’m just arguing with you, who have not stoped posting nonsense since the fp16 magic sauce. I usually don’t get into this arguments because it’s just childish, but your argument is simply wrong.

If you want you can tell that Ps4 and Ps4pro in the DMC5 have higher framerate while the xboxonex have better resolution.

What you cannot say is that the Ps4pro has better performance because it takes much more computer power to render in 4k than the few frames that they gain. You keep not taking into account the resolution in the performance equation. And i’m sure you know, that if both games were at the same resolution (1080p), the xbox one x version would have in fact better framerate.
 
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How

How can you still be with such crap? Performance is obviously impacted with resolution. The same game at 4k, vs the same game at 1080p, has better performance. One can go higher resolution while the other can’t.
What are you trying to say? Pro have better performace than X in that game.

Don’t bother. It’s really not worth it. Some ignorance you can’t defy.
What? Ignorance seems to not read what he said I guess.

The resolution is higher on X but the performance is lower on DMC5... the higher resolution is worth if the game play worst?

Derailing the thread?🤣 I’m just arguing with you, who have not stoped posting nonsense since the fp16 magic sauce. I usually don’t get into this arguments because it’s just childish, but your argument is simply wrong.

If you want you can tell that Ps4 and Ps4pro in the DMC5 have higher framerate while the xboxonex have better resolution.

What you cannot say is that the Ps4pro has better performance because it takes much more computer power to render in 4k than the few frames that they gain. You keep not taking into account the resolution in the performance equation. And i’m sure you know, that if both games were at the same resolution (1080p), the xbox one x version would have in fact better framerate.
Stop please.

If a game in 720p runs at 60fps and the other in 4k at 50fps the 720p game has better performance.

It is even common on PC to drop resolution and setthings to reach better performance... it is even ideal.

That is the definition of performance.
 
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Derailing the thread?🤣 I’m just arguing with you, who have not stoped posting nonsense since the fp16 magic sauce. I usually don’t get into this arguments because it’s just childish, but your argument is simply wrong.

If you want you can tell that Ps4 and Ps4pro in the DMC5 have higher framerate while the xboxonex have better resolution.

What you cannot say is that the Ps4pro has better performance because it takes much more computer power to render in 4k than the few frames that they gain. You keep not taking into account the resolution in the performance equation. And i’m sure you know, that if both games were at the same resolution (1080p), the xbox one x version would have in fact better framerate.
where did I say fp16 was magic sauce? I posted facts about new GPUs starting to use double rate fp16
 
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If a game in 720p runs at 60fps and the other in 4k at 50fps the 720p game has better performance.

It is even common on PC to drop resolution and setthings to reach better performance... it is even ideal.

That is the definition of performance.
I am arguing about the power of the consoles itself, not how the game runs. If a console has much better resolution while just loosing some fps (obviously depends on how big is the difference), that console has better performance (say power if you want) because it’s cristal clear that at the same resolution, the xbox would have much better performance.

where did I say fp16 was magic sauce? I posted facts about new GPUs starting to use double rate fp16
Whatever.
 
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I am arguing about the power of the consoles itself, not how the game runs. If a console has much better resolution while just loosing some fps (obviously depends on how big is the difference), that console has better performance (say power if you want) because it’s cristal clear that at the same resolution, the xbox would have much better performance..
You are still completely wrong.

No matter the resolution if a console is running with lower framerate it has lower performance.

I guess I get your confusion... power is not the same concept of performance.

XB1 X has more power than Pro that will never change.
In DMC5 Pro has better performance than XB1 X and that can change for better or worst with patches depending on optimizations.

And no... it is not crystal clear that using the same resolution it will performed better... sometimes the bootleneck for lower performance is not related to resolution so even dropping to 720p won’t make it increase the framerate.
 
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