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DCEU frustrates me because it could've been so good

Jethalal

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BvS has garnered a pretty big following since, mostly based on the extended cut which restores Snyder's vision. I think you're right about how people are wired, though, I could picture them even rejecting a new Nolan Batman film.
I don't think the wired thing makes any sense. Movies which go against the formula have garnered more success like Thor Ragnarok, GOTG, CA:WS, etc. and movies which are 'bland' and generic like AMATW have failed. Ofcourse there are outliers like Captain Marvel but they can piggyback the success of consistently successful movies coming after them and before them. That is unfortunately not possible with DC movies due to the inconsistency in quality of the movies.
 
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I don't think the wired thing makes any sense. Movies which go against the formula have garnered more success like Thor Ragnarok, GOTG, CA:WS, etc. and movies which are 'bland' and generic like AMATW have failed. Ofcourse there are outliers like Captain Marvel but they can piggyback the success of consistently successful movies coming after them and before them. That is unfortunately not possible with DC movies due to the inconsistency in quality of the movies.

I mean their worst failures are still relative successes. I also don't think Ragnarok and Guardians are as outside the formula as people claim... they're bright, colorful and full of humor, they just share as much DNA with space operas as comic books and Ragnarok probably only is as it is because of the success of Guardians. To me those films are every bit as formulaic they just actually feel as outlandish as comic book movies maybe should. If you compare it to DC where your movies range from Shazam to Joker it's very clear how much the formula still matters to them.
 

Jethalal

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I mean their worst failures are still relative successes. I also don't think Ragnarok and Guardians are as outside the formula as people claim... they're bright, colorful and full of humor, they just share as much DNA with space operas as comic books and Ragnarok probably only is as it is because of the success of Guardians. To me those films are every bit as formulaic they just actually feel as outlandish as comic book movies maybe should. If you compare it to DC where your movies range from Shazam to Joker it's very clear how much the formula still matters to them.
I'll have to disagree about your Guardians and Ragnarok assessment, nearly every movie is inspired by others, that doesn't means they are following a formula.

Joker is not a DCEU movie, it is an elseworlds story. They might retcon that considering it's success and that movie is very much heavily inspired from few Scorsese movies (like scene by scene) so will you say it is following a formula?

Shazam is heavily inspired by Big by Tom Hanks and tonally inspired by MCU films so is it following a formula?
 
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I'll have to disagree about your Guardians and Ragnarok assessment, nearly every movie is inspired by others, that doesn't means they are following a formula.

Joker is not a DCEU movie, it is an elseworlds story. They might retcon that considering it's success and that movie is very much heavily inspired from few Scorsese movies (like scene by scene) so will you say it is following a formula?

Shazam is heavily inspired by Big by Tom Hanks and tonally inspired by MCU films so is it following a formula?

Um... what? Stop quoting me if you're going to say ridiculous crap like this. I was talking about the MCU having the same formula across all their films, what does Joker being similar to Taxi Driver have anything to do with it? Are they in the same cinematic universe produced by the same company?
 

Jethalal

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Um... what? Stop quoting me if you're going to say ridiculous crap like this. I was talking about the MCU having the same formula across all their films, what does Joker being similar to Taxi Driver have anything to do with it? Are they in the same cinematic universe produced by the same company?
You were saying about Gotg and Ragnarok being inspired by space operas so they are not as apart from the formula as people claim. That I believe is not a valid reason.
 

Imperius

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I don't think the wired thing makes any sense. Movies which go against the formula have garnered more success like Thor Ragnarok, GOTG, CA:WS, etc. and movies which are 'bland' and generic like AMATW have failed. Ofcourse there are outliers like Captain Marvel but they can piggyback the success of consistently successful movies coming after them and before them. That is unfortunately not possible with DC movies due to the inconsistency in quality of the movies.
Ragnorok and GOTG are two prime examples of the MCU formula. Ragnorok went as far to abandon their previous “Thor” character and reinvent him as a slapstick comedian based on what worked in their other movies. GOTG turned pretty much the entire cast, including Drax who is supposedly a badass warrior, into goofball comedians. Beyond the ridiculous characterizations, the bright color palettes to make them kid friendly, the boilerplate plot lines, the incessant quips... classic MCU.

Winter Soldier definitely breaks the mold for an MCU movie however. Having conflict among humans is infinitely more interesting than having a bunch of people in corny outfits fighting meaningless CGI monsters.

The wired thing definitely makes sense when you consider that human cognition is built around recognizing patterns and there’s a huge chunk of the population who prefers comfortable, predictable experiences versus experiences that challenge them or go in directions they didn’t expect. It’s the same reason that there’s millions of people out there watching reruns of The Office or Friends for the hundredth time. Hell, the Office was the most popular thing for most of the last decade. There’s a huge contingent of people that want things that are familiar and predictable, and that’s exactly what you get when you walk into an MCU movie.
 
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You were saying about Gotg and Ragnarok being inspired by space operas so they are not as apart from the formula as people claim. That I believe is not a valid reason.

Um... nope, that's not what I was saying. Though I could definitely argue the space opera is pretty clearly compatible with the MCU formula. I'm also not sure why I need to only compare MCU to DCEU? What's the point? A DC movie is a DC movie regardless of an interconnected universe.
 

Blade2.0

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And Watchmen? I'm still baffled as to why people think that movie is any good. It's a piss poor adaptation of the graphic novel.
It also doesn't help that you could shave off an hour of film time if the action scenes weren't in slow motion...

Zack Snyder is the finest filmmaker of his generation. I saw Watchmen at a midnight screening, likely not many casual fans who never read the comic, and the entire place erupted in a standing ovation when the credits rolled. The first time watching Man of Steel with my friends, all of us blown away by the Krypton opening, one of us just jumped off the couch and screamed what all of us were thinking, arms spread wide in exasperation:

"Why does the internet hate this movie?"

I truly cannot understand anyone who claims to enjoy comic books and comic book films yet despises Zack Snyder. My brain just can't even begin to process the logic someone would need to hold that kind of opposition in their mind. Whether you agree with the story choices or not, every film he's made is leagues and leagues beyond anything Marvel has produced as a creative work of art. It's hilarious how low budget their projects look compared to MoS and BvS.

No one honestly thinks Snyder's films are bad, they only pretend that they do because of how uncomfortable he makes them and what these movies reveal about themselves. I'm glad you were all exposed for how small a vocal minority you are when WB greenlit the Snyder Cut.
I read all of this and just heard farting noises the whole time.
 
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Ragnorok and GOTG are two prime examples of the MCU formula. Ragnorok went as far to abandon their previous “Thor” character and reinvent him as a slapstick comedian based on what worked in their other movies. GOTG turned pretty much the entire cast, including Drax who is supposedly a badass warrior, into goofball comedians. Beyond the ridiculous characterizations, the bright color palettes to make them kid friendly, the boilerplate plot lines, the incessant quips... classic MCU.

Winter Soldier definitely breaks the mold for an MCU movie however. Having conflict among humans is infinitely more interesting than having a bunch of people in corny outfits fighting meaningless CGI monsters.

The wired thing definitely makes sense when you consider that human cognition is built around recognizing patterns and there’s a huge chunk of the population who prefers comfortable, predictable experiences versus experiences that challenge them or go in directions they didn’t expect. It’s the same reason that there’s millions of people out there watching reruns of The Office or Friends for the hundredth time. Hell, the Office was the most popular thing for most of the last decade. There’s a huge contingent of the population that want things that are familiar and predictable, and that’s exactly what you get when you walk into an MCU movie.

Winter Soldier was pretty good at being different until that finale... that finale was full MCU formula to a T, constantly shifting what part of a big CGI dumbfest you're watching lest you get too excited by the part you're on.
 

Jethalal

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Um... nope, that's not what I was saying. Though I could definitely argue the space opera is pretty clearly compatible with the MCU formula. I'm also not sure why I need to only compare MCU to DCEU? What's the point? A DC movie is a DC movie regardless of an interconnected universe.
No genre is compatible with anything. You have to make it work. MCU has done that again and again. You have thrillers, high school movie, space opera, heist movies, etc.
DC can do it as well. DC overall is pretty great . They are arguably better than marvel in comics and animated flicks but to say they are better in movies is just not correct. As of now, the DCEU is a shoddy mess. Tss2 would be great, that I'm sure of due to Gunn but can't say about the other movies due to the lack of consistency.
MCU and DCEU are obviously to be compared due to them being interconnected universes of films. If you want to compare apples with oranges then that's upto you. By your logic Logan seems to be a better comparison to joker.
 

DeafTourette

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Zack Snyder is the finest filmmaker of his generation. I saw Watchmen at a midnight screening, likely not many casual fans who never read the comic, and the entire place erupted in a standing ovation when the credits rolled. The first time watching Man of Steel with my friends, all of us blown away by the Krypton opening, one of us just jumped off the couch and screamed what all of us were thinking, arms spread wide in exasperation:

"Why does the internet hate this movie?"

I truly cannot understand anyone who claims to enjoy comic books and comic book films yet despises Zack Snyder. My brain just can't even begin to process the logic someone would need to hold that kind of opposition in their mind. Whether you agree with the story choices or not, every film he's made is leagues and leagues beyond anything Marvel has produced as a creative work of art. It's hilarious how low budget their projects look compared to MoS and BvS.

No one honestly thinks Snyder's films are bad, they only pretend that they do because of how uncomfortable he makes them and what these movies reveal about themselves. I'm glad you were all exposed for how small a vocal minority you are when WB greenlit the Snyder Cut.

Big Brother Podcast GIF by SHOWTIME Sports
 
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No genre is compatible with anything. You have to make it work. MCU has done that again and again. You have thrillers, high school movie, space opera, heist movies, etc.
DC can do it as well. DC overall is pretty great . They are arguably better than marvel in comics and animated flicks but to say they are better in movies is just not correct. As of now, the DCEU is a shoddy mess. Tss2 would be great, that I'm sure of due to Gunn but can't say about the other movies due to the lack of consistency.
MCU and DCEU are obviously to be compared due to them being interconnected universes of films. If you want to compare apples with oranges then that's upto you. By your logic Logan seems to be a better comparison to joker.

Some genres are absolutely more compatible with others.

Yes, MCU is good at taking lots of different genre ideas and making them mundane and fit their same formula.

My opinion is correct... because it's mine. Know thyself, not popular viewpoint.

I don't really care how messy a connected universe is, I care how good the films are. It's not like the MCU makes perfect sense.

I agree with following directors for quality but I don't agree that it points to anything special about MCU, since they often rob director's of their unique voice and force them to fit their mold.

DC vs Marvel films was a thing prior to either having a connected universe, bud.

Yeah, Logan is great, better than any MCU film.
 
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Bolivar687

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Yeah I was talking about that only. I don't think that plan would have worked. BvS seemed tame in comparison to what he was going for and we all know the reception to that movie.
His plans are too grim, unlike the characters and we never saw the JL as a proper team before so seeing them lose doesn't means much. These should have taken place like 5 years from now after every character would've been established properly and we'd have 1 or 2 JL movies too before these plans so their loss would've made more impact. The last animated DC movie ( JL Dark: Apokolips War)in their DC animated universe was quite similar and even that felt quite bizarre even though we had so much buildup. I think Snyder should continue through comics or animated flicks, that would be a great compromise between all parties.
I respect that it's not for everyone and it's quite a risk to put the all of these characters in the hands of someone with such a grim intention. But I'd maintain that this kind of artistic risk, which I admit aligns with my own selfish preferences, is still objectively better than a corporatized playbook of what can and cannot be done. Like I said, there would have been the first JL movie and several character installments before the big f'ed up storyline, including for all of the core JL members, which is more than can be said for the Avengers before Endgame.

I don't think he should do animation or comics because he's already a fairly acclaimed and accomplished film director at this point, so he's always going to have options and offers for something better to do with his time.
 

Imperius

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His plans are too grim, unlike the characters
This is subjective, and it's clear that there's tons of fans out there who strongly prefer Snyder's vision of these characters. However, if the goal is to do business that equates to Infinity War level box office receipts, then yes, Snyder's approach to these films is not going to get there. In order to do Avengers box office numbers you need a film that appeals to the lowest common denominator, thus making the films accessible to as many people as possible. The violent and brooding nature of Snyder's work is for sure going to be off-putting to a large percentage of children, women, and soyboys.

the JL as a proper team before so seeing them lose doesn't means much. These should have taken place like 5 years from now after every character would've been established properly and we'd have 1 or 2 JL movies too before these plans so their loss would've made more impact.
There's really no reason that every character needs it's own movie to set the ground for a Justice League film. "Marvel did it" isn't evidence that a Justice League movie can't be done without everybody having to watch an 3 hour movie on each Aquaman, Flash and Cyborg. Snyder's version of Justice League went much further into the history of the characters that were introduced in the movie (just look at the trailer) and will hopefully do a much better job of making the film feel like an earned experience for each of the characters.

Also worth pointing out that it isn't Snyder making the call on what films are going into production, that's up to the studio. Snyder's job is to take the studio directives and do the best he can to work that into his film.

The last animated DC movie ( JL Dark: Apokolips War)in their DC animated universe was quite similar and even that felt quite bizarre even though we had so much buildup. I think Snyder should continue through comics or animated flicks, that would be a great compromise between all parties.
You understand that directing animation is a completely different skillset than directing films? Snyder is a very accomplished film director and has a very passionate following of fans. Regardless of how things play out with DC, he's going to be more than fine going forward.
 

Jethalal

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I respect that it's not for everyone and it's quite a risk to put the all of these characters in the hands of someone with such a grim intention. But I'd maintain that this kind of artistic risk, which I admit aligns with my own selfish preferences, is still objectively better than a corporatized playbook of what can and cannot be done. Like I said, there would have been the first JL movie and several character installments before the big f'ed up storyline, including for all of the core JL members, which is more than can be said for the Avengers before Endgame.

I don't think he should do animation or comics because he's already a fairly acclaimed and accomplished film director at this point, so he's always going to have options and offers for something better to do with his time.
The comic or animation option was just because I believe his fans deserve some kind of a closure. I do feel he can make much better movies and his style would suit dark action and thriller movies very well. He is wasting his time on these.

I feel everyone is realizing the importance of artistic freedom. At DC we have The Batman coming up which seems to be inspired by some of the best Bat comics and Marvel has Wandavision and Eternals coming up, I feel these both will make be something very special. It's a good time to be a superhero fan and I'm glad to be one 😀
 

Jethalal

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This is subjective, and it's clear that there's tons of fans out there who strongly prefer Snyder's vision of these characters. However, if the goal is to do business that equates to Infinity War level box office receipts, then yes, Snyder's approach to these films is not going to get there. In order to do Avengers box office numbers you need a film that appeals to the lowest common denominator, thus making the films accessible to as many people as possible. The violent and brooding nature of Snyder's work is for sure going to be off-putting to a large percentage of children, women, and soyboys.


There's really no reason that every character needs it's own movie to set the ground for a Justice League film. "Marvel did it" isn't evidence that a Justice League movie can't be done without everybody having to watch an 3 hour movie on each Aquaman, Flash and Cyborg. Snyder's version of Justice League went much further into the history of the characters that were introduced in the movie (just look at the trailer) and will hopefully do a much better job of making the film feel like an earned experience for each of the characters.

Also worth pointing out that it isn't Snyder making the call on what films are going into production, that's up to the studio. Snyder's job is to take the studio directives and do the best he can to work that into his film.


You understand that directing animation is a completely different skillset than directing films? Snyder is a very accomplished film director and has a very passionate following of fans. Regardless of how things play out with DC, he's going to be more than fine going forward.
About characters, if you read the comics you'll know what I'm talking about. At first I wasn't too irked by his choices but as I read more comics, I realized Snyder got them all wrong just to be edgy. Batman is dark but he doesn't kills people, it is very very integral to his character, if you get that wrong then it tells everything about your vision. This is why I feel his version of characters should have been an elseworlds story not the main thing.

I agree there doesn't have to be movies on each character, even marvel doesn't. We are just getting the Black Widow movie after she's dead and the Hawkeye show( which will be amazing even if it is half as good as the comic it is adapting).

Read my post above on why I suggested animation or comic route.
 

jufonuk

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Said it before I’ll say it again. Man of steel isn’t all that bad on subsequent viewings. Just I think Superman is a boring character in the sense of peril etc he is the most OP hero ever so you know he will always win. Usually by out powering the big bad. Where as You know Batman will win because Batman. It’s how he overcomes that makes him interesting.

also DC animated films are fucking amazing. Better than the cinematic stuff by far.
 
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Jethalal

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Said it before I’ll say it again. Man of steel isn’t all that bad on subsequent viewings. Just I think Superman is a boring character in the sense of peril etc he is the most OP hero ever so you know he will always win. Usually by out powering the big bad. Where as You know Batman will win because Batman. It’s how he overcomes that makes him interesting.

also DC animated films are fucking amazing. Better than the cinematic stuff by far.
Check out Batman: Under The Red Hood and The Dark Knight Returns Pt.1 and Pt.2. Some of the best movies I've seen and easily the best animated hero movies.
 
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Imperius

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About characters, if you read the comics you'll know what I'm talking about. At first I wasn't too irked by his choices but as I read more comics, I realized Snyder got them all wrong just to be edgy. Batman is dark but he doesn't kills people, it is very very integral to his character, if you get that wrong then it tells everything about your vision. This is why I feel his version of characters should have been an elseworlds story not the main thing.

I agree there doesn't have to be movies on each character, even marvel doesn't. We are just getting the Black Widow movie after she's dead and the Hawkeye show( which will be amazing even if it is half as good as the comic it is adapting).

Read my post above on why I suggested animation or comic route.
This is Zack Snyder's Batman, not the Batman from comic books that was created at a time when women weren't allowed to leave the house without a chaperone. I'm not sure how Batman's "no-kill" policy was ever integral to his character other than to make him more marketable to children back in the 60's. Under the Red Hood puts the spotlight on just how non-sensical that policy is. The Joker has killed thousands of people who would be alive if Batman had the balls to end him. And the best excuse Batman can come up with is, "if I killed him, I wouldn't be able to stop." You wouldn't be able to stop killing violent criminals who commit atrocities on innocent people? So fucking what? It's a ridiculous aspect of his character that doesn't even make sense in the comics, and sure as hell doesn't fit the Batman in Snyder's movies that try to push realism.
 
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Jethalal

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This is Zack Snyder's Batman, not the Batman from comic books that was created at a time when women weren't allowed to leave the house without a chaperone. I'm not sure how Batman's "no-kill" policy was ever integral to his character other than to make him more marketable to children back in the 60's. Under the Red Hood puts the spotlight on just how non-sensical that policy is. The Joker has killed thousands of people who would be alive if Batman had the balls to end him. And the best excuse Batman can come up with is, "if I killed him, I wouldn't be able to stop." You wouldn't be able to stop killing violent criminals who commit atrocities on innocent people? So fucking what? It's a ridiculous aspect of his character that doesn't even make sense in the comics, and sure as hell doesn't fit the Batman in Snyder's movies that try to push realism.
Read Batman Year One, Earth One, Long Halloween. Watch Batman Under The Red Hood or just experience any great batman story and you'll know what I'm talking about. It is not just about violence but about morality and the emotional trauma due to his parents' death due to a gun.

Again you are proving my point. They are fine but not as the main versions.
 

Imperius

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Read Batman Year One, Earth One, Long Halloween. Watch Batman Under The Red Hood or just experience any great batman story and you'll know what I'm talking about. It is not just about violence but about morality and the emotional trauma due to his parents' death due to a gun.

Again you are proving my point. They are fine but not as the main versions.
???

I just cited Under the Red Hood to make my point. If Batman's goal is to protect the innocent, his no-kill policy makes zero sense in a world where criminals will inevitably be back on the street killing more innocents.
 

Jethalal

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???

I just cited Under the Red Hood to make my point. If Batman's goal is to protect the innocent, his no-kill policy makes zero sense in a world where criminals will inevitably be back on the street killing more innocents.
Sorry I misread it, am on the phone rn.

The story is an excellent counterpoint to his no killing rule. All sides are important to the argument after all.
The thing is let's just say Batman kills Deadshot for example, what happens to his daughter when she learns that the hero killed her father. Would she not be lead down the same path for vengeance. Batman doesn't wants that, he seeks justice not vengeance. There shouldn't be need of more batmen.
Even if he did kill we saw in the DCEU how crime free Gotham actually was.
You can see in the movie, Jason Todd becomes the villainous anti hero with no moral code. A freak on killing spree, with no humanity.
It is important to have a moral code. For his own sanity and to keep the demons and guilt in check.
 

quickwhips

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dc rushed the team up movie. They missed the point. Not every movie marvel made hit 500 million. They build a good brand and then the kept hitting at the team up with Nick Fury. DC I thought as going to do this but they just keep fucking it up. 2 movies in and they do batman vs superman? WHY. They could have mentioned each other and let them do their own thing. I mean batman hits a spot where he realizes Supes might be a problem or vice versa. Is batman really a good guy? The branding shit for batman on criminals as stupid also.
 
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Imperius

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Sorry I misread it, am on the phone rn.

The story is an excellent counterpoint to his no killing rule. All sides are important to the argument after all.
The thing is let's just say Batman kills Deadshot for example, what happens to his daughter when she learns that the hero killed her father. Would she not be lead down the same path for vengeance. Batman doesn't wants that, he seeks justice not vengeance. There shouldn't be need of more batmen.
Even if he did kill we saw in the DCEU how crime free Gotham actually was.
You can see in the movie, Jason Todd becomes the villainous anti hero with no moral code. A freak on killing spree, with no humanity.
It is important to have a moral code. For his own sanity and to keep the demons and guilt in check.
Well assuming we're talking about the paid assassin Deadshot, putting him in a body bag would hopefully send his daughter the message that killing people for money is a poor career choice. Have you considered that the friends/relatives of Deadshots victims are just as likely to seek vengeance for themselves? If Batman wants justice, he surely isn't serving up justice to the people of Gotham that will continue to be harmed and abused by these villains he refuses to kill. Jason Todd was the only rational individual in that movie. I can understand the importance of a moral code, but it doesn't make any sense to suggest that letting some serial killing piece of shit continue to live and inflict pain on others is the "moral" thing to do.
 
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Jethalal

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Well assuming we're talking about the paid assassin Deadshot, putting him in a body bag would hopefully send his daughter the message that killing people for money is a poor career choice. Have you considered that the friends/relatives of Deadshots victims are just as likely to seek vengeance for themselves? If Batman wants justice, he surely isn't serving up justice to the people of Gotham that will continue to be harmed and abused by these villains he refuses to kill. Jason Todd was the only rational individual in that movie. I can understand the importance of a moral code, but it doesn't make any sense to suggest that letting some serial killing piece of shit continue to live and inflict pain on others is the "moral" thing to do.
I don't think we can ever reach an understanding on this issue brother. I guess we have very different viewpoints, everything cant be right or wrong.
Sorry for wasting our time, I don't wanna escalate this further.
 

Jethalal

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Every Batman movie (except the 66 Batman) has had him kill... Even the recent Nolan films.
That's why I am excited for Battinson brother, I think they are making something very special and true to the character. Doubly hyped after reading The last halloween.

Nolan flicks are amazing bro but simultaneously they feel least like Batman. He probably did them for the checks and studio goodwill but who cares, more nolan movies is always a good thing
 
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Bolivar687

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Zack's interpretation is Frank Miller's Batman, who shot a guy in the head at point blank range when it meant saving the life of a child. In the reference shot to that same panel in BvS, Batfleck just wounds him instead of going for the killshot. If anything, he's slightly toned down from the source character in the comics.

They had to go in a different direction because of how iconic the Nolan films were only a few years before but for people who grew up adoring TDKR, BvS felt like the most authentic portrayal of Batman on film.
 

sol_bad

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Sucker Punch took 11 tries to get rid of the NC-17 the MPAA slapped it with. ELEVEN.

The American ratings system is beyond stupid. As I mentioned in the "have you seen any good films recently" thread, I saw The Dry and Nomadland.
The Dry has no nudity, not many adult themes, no violence except for blood splatters on the ground and some swearing. Because the film has the F word multiple times it automatically becomes R.
Nomadland has none of the above at all but it does have 1 none gratuitous full body nude shot of the main actress, because it's an extended shot the film is rated R.
 
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Imagine actually caring if Batman kills people. Nolan had him make a distinction between killing and being an executioner... because guess what, you can't have ridiculous car chases and beat people to a pulp and expect to never kill anyone.
 
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