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Dead Space 2 Announced
- Thread starter tass0
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corrosivefrost
Member
Psy-Phi said:
Exactamundo!
Psy-Phi said:
There are no scary games, only tense and atmospheric ones.
But even if by some amazing coincidence you are still able to legitimately be frightened by a game, then it still does not eliminate a co-op survival horror game. So many horror movies have more than one person in a scene. A great survival horror game can absolutely be done with only two players, or even more.
It's about the sweating intensity of an enemy out-of-sight, always lurking. Your ammo dwindling. The world around you dying, corrupted. All of this can be achieved with more than one person. Just because RE5 chose to go the more action-oriented route than RE4 started does not mean survival horror co-op is impossible.
Like i said, GAF has no imagination. That is why they are always wrong. If the GAF collective feels something is so, you can rest assured that it is not so.
The same is true here. A great survival horror co-op game would be amazing.
-tetsuo-
Unlimited Capacity
Im trying to think how much scarier a scary moment would be if you had been playing co-op all along. I can see playing in like 3 hours or so with a buddy and then getting split up. I think that would heighten the fear even more since you are used to having a person there. They can go all out with and have the headsets filled with static so you can barely hear each other and stuff. That would be pretty sweet.
None of this will happen, of course.
None of this will happen, of course.
â Narayan
Member
Not sure about that, but I do remember that the first letter of every chapter spells outbigswords said:
N I C O L E I S D E A D
Also, please no cooperative. Fuck that shit.
Psy-Phi
Member
Movies != games either.Amir0x said:
Or haven't you played enough games to see what works in a movie doesn't always work in a game? Most games that try to be movie-like are pretty terribad at being a game.
And I'm flattered that you think I am speaking for all of GAF
. I've seen just about as many people say co-op as say no thank ma'am.And I can be quite imaginative. But you can't have the same atmosphere with a 2nd player. Can't be done. It changes the whole dynamic of a game to have another player there. Even another NPC there changes it. Games can try all they might, but as soon as you toss a 2nd player into a game, it becomes a different kind of tense than the scary. And if you split the players up in co-op even 50% of the time, you may as well not even have them play together at all.
Play Ravenholm in Hl2 alone. Then go through again in co-op with Synergy. It's not meant for two players clearly (it becomes a fun house instead of a mausoleum). But if they did design it for two players it would be the same story. If you have people passing each other ammo, sharing health packs...you have L4D. The game plays action oriented already, Silent Hill may work since combat is usually the last thing you want to do. But still, that's an extra pair of eyes in the world to alert you to something you may not have seen. Which breaks the pacing.
Doom 3 is another game where having a friend completely changes the dynamic of the game.
Commanche Raisin Toast
Member
Psy-Phi said:
i feel the same way. i enjoyed how isaac was just an engineer and had to use his tools to survive. i was kind of disappointed when i found the pulse rifle, but i guess it had to do with their being security guards and what have you on the ship, and/or military being involved with the mining project.
i would like to see more of those kinds of things that made dead space special and what made it all WORK. isaac with a lot of guns would be stupid. i could totally see them starting it out with this sort of scenario: isaac is with some military group going in to investigate and clean up everything and kill all the aliens and what have you, but something goes wrong, a crash, a lot of them die, and he is without access to the firepower they brought along, and has to use the tools he finds after crashing to get the job done and escape. sounds familiar to DS1, but i would rather it happen like that then have all sorts of proper firearms.
until we know the premise of the sequel and how it all fits then we can only speculate and cross our fingers.
_tetsuo_ said:
And when you're together, have your voice volumes depend on proximity, such as hearing your buddy fade out saying "oh shit!" etc as they disappear around a corner, taken by a giant necromorph tentacle leading to your seperation. I'm starting to like this co-op separation idea...
SundaySounds
Banned
So does this mean that Issac isn't a mute anymore?
Commanche Raisin Toast
Member
DR2K said:
i'd prefer it to be some sort of side mission type situation than making the SP campaign co-op enabled, or even DESIGNING the levels to be co-op friendly, and then just making it to where you can be alone or with a friend. i prefer SP game levels to be designed for ONE PERSON to play through, and then just enable a co-op mode for it or even make a whole separate co-op campaign completely.
designing levels to be played with multiple people = playing it SP feels weird, or too hard, or just cheap and less atmospheric.
designing levels to be played by one person = when you play them co-op it may feel cramped or odd, like the co-op was shoehorned in.
my vote is for separate co-op campaign. yes, i was one of the people complaining about R2's co-op not being in the SP campaign in addition to the separate co-op stuff, but then again that was a bigger world, larger environments, and it was a shooter. less atmospheric or focused on scares and immersion.
â Narayan
Member
If they must include co-operative, then they need to keep it separate from the main campaign. None of that Resident Evil 5 bullshit, thanks.bigswords said:
HomerSimpson-Man
Member
U K Narayan said:
Or...or..do it Halo style, two engineers!
That way all effort is kept into the main adventure, while the game gets ramped up when you co-op! Win-win!
It works well since the you're a suited/armored covered character anyway.
â Narayan
Member
No.HomerSimpson-Man said:
Uncharted 2 did it well. If there is any design to follow, it's that one.
EmCeeGramr
Member
Wrath2X said:
kyo_daikun said:
Wanna know something about Dead Space: Extraction?
...When your characters want to escape, they decided they had to shut off the power to the ADS cannons' automatic aiming, LOL.
Isaac didn't leave his super boots._tetsuo_ said:
HomerSimpson-Man
Member
I don't like the separate campaigns that aren't involved with the real portion of the scenario. I would rather them put everything into the real campaign and take nothing from it.U K Narayan said:
Nizz
Member
Agreed. I know a lot of people here are sold on co-op, but I still love the single player campaigns.U K Narayan said:
Especially with a series like Dead Space where the feeling of isolation helped sell me the atmosphere even more. It's probably likely DS2 will have co-op. I'm just hoping it doesn't feel forced into the single player like RE5.
The new armor looks sleek. I loved Isaac's look in DS1 when I slapped on the PS3 colored black armor. Wouldn't mind having that option again. I grabbed the suit just before the game was out, but I didn't get the game till Christmastime.
I can't wait.
â Narayan
Member
I'd rather have an experience fully intact in the single-player spectrum, than for it to be neutered in any way because of cooperative. Look at System Shock 2's cooperative mode. Single-player in System Shock 2 is brilliant, but when you play it in cooperative? All of the atmosphere is gone. This is why I prefer a separate cooperative experience like Uncharted 2.HomerSimpson-Man said:
So, it wouldn't be cool playing this with a friend, who's doing something else on the other side of the ship, and hearing him scream in the headset 'cause he got jumped at while you were doing repairs at the helm or whatever? Having environmental influence over each others scares, to create your own mind fucks would be awesome, if done right.
If the idea of having a friend accidentally unleash one of those immortal necros on you by screwing up a puzzle or whatever, isn't thrilling, then you have no soul
I'm just really tired of coop meaning two people always staying together & experience the same static scares at the same time, every time. Mix it up!
If the idea of having a friend accidentally unleash one of those immortal necros on you by screwing up a puzzle or whatever, isn't thrilling, then you have no soul
I'm just really tired of coop meaning two people always staying together & experience the same static scares at the same time, every time. Mix it up!
ideally i think there should be a seperate co-op mode, like uncharted 2 is supposed to have
you could turn the single player mode into what we're used too, and the co-op into some kind of aliens like fight for survival. use the voice actors from extraction, they were by far the best thing about that game
fuck competitive multiplayer though
you could turn the single player mode into what we're used too, and the co-op into some kind of aliens like fight for survival. use the voice actors from extraction, they were by far the best thing about that game
fuck competitive multiplayer though
Psy-Phi said:Movies != games either.
Or haven't you played enough games to see what works in a movie doesn't always work in a game? Most games that try to be movie-like are pretty terribad at being a game.
And I'm flattered that you think I am speaking for all of GAF
And I can be quite imaginative. But you can't have the same atmosphere with a 2nd player. Can't be done. It changes the whole dynamic of a game to have another player there. Even another NPC there changes it. Games can try all they might, but as soon as you toss a 2nd player into a game, it becomes a different kind of tense than the scary. And if you split the players up in co-op even 50% of the time, you may as well not even have them play together at all.
Play Ravenholm in Hl2 alone. Then go through again in co-op with Synergy. It's not meant for two players clearly (it becomes a fun house instead of a mausoleum). But if they did design it for two players it would be the same story. If you have people passing each other ammo, sharing health packs...you have L4D. The game plays action oriented already, Silent Hill may work since combat is usually the last thing you want to do. But still, that's an extra pair of eyes in the world to alert you to something you may not have seen. Which breaks the pacing.
Doom 3 is another game where having a friend completely changes the dynamic of the game.
Your entire argument relies solely on the fact that no developer has tried to make a quality co-op survival horror game. But it can be done - every one of your "points" completely falls apart if a developer actually sat down and designed a game to be frighteningly tense with co-op.
It wouldn't be like L4D if ammo was legitimately scarce and you could only communicate in proximity. It wouldn't be like Ravenholm in HL2 because that WAS designed for single player.
A developer who wants to make a frightening, tense co-op survival horror game absolutely can. And I bet it'd be fantastic, maybe even groundbreaking. Lacking imagination as you do must make it tough, but when it happens I'll be there smiling. Because we'll have an amazing co-op game, and an amazing survival horror game all rolled up into one.
You seem to think these games have some mystical power that is only achievable while playing by yourself. Thankfully, they don't. It's just that the games up until now have not been designed this way.
Is Dead Space the franchise to do it? I don't know. But can it be done, and well? Fucking yes. Absolutely. Can't wait to see it done.
timetokill
Banned
Amir0x said:
I agree. I've done some designs for a multiplayer horror game like this, with 2 or more players... it can definitely be done, and it can be done well.
The main questions are going to be if it's financially feasible and if EA is willing to take that kind of a risk, or if they'll go with a successful formula instead -- something like RE5 or L4D.
With all of that said, I'm not optimistic on EA's desire to really pull it off so I'd rather have Dead Space be single-player... or at least, I'd feel more at ease going into the game's release.
The Blue Jihad
Member
Minamu said:So, it wouldn't be cool playing this with a friend, who's doing something else on the other side of the ship, and hearing him scream in the headset 'cause he got jumped at while you were doing repairs at the helm or whatever? Having environmental influence over each others scares, to create your own mind fucks would be awesome, if done right.
If the idea of having a friend accidentally unleash one of those immortal necros on you by screwing up a puzzle or whatever, isn't thrilling, then you have no soul
I'm just really tired of coop meaning two people always staying together & experience the same static scares at the same time, every time. Mix it up!
NO, because what happens when you're playing offline, by yourself?
Does the AI take over the other player or does the other player just completely disappear?
Either way, it'd be no different than playing a single-player game entirely, so what's the point of jamming co-op in there?
Make an optional co-op mode or don't include co-op at all.
The problem is that on a design document, you're essentially guaranteeing you're doing twice as much content, and each player is really only going to see half of it.Minamu said:So, it wouldn't be cool playing this with a friend, who's doing something else on the other side of the ship, and hearing him scream in the headset 'cause he got jumped at while you were doing repairs at the helm or whatever? Having environmental influence over each others scares, to create your own mind fucks would be awesome, if done right.
If the idea of having a friend accidentally unleash one of those immortal necros on you by screwing up a puzzle or whatever, isn't thrilling, then you have no soul
I'm just really tired of coop meaning two people always staying together & experience the same static scares at the same time, every time. Mix it up!
It would take an extremely risk happy/stupid developer to go after this kind of thing.
I'm just being realistic.Amir0x said:
Don't get your hopes up about Dead Space 2 to be anything when they've only just announced the title is in development and said nothing else. It's setting yourself up for disappointment. The game might not even have any form of co-operative play.
D
Deleted member 30609
Unconfirmed Member
this warms my heart
Dance In My Blood said:
My argument has nothing to do about Dead Space 2 at all. Not even remotely.
It's only about the concept of a co-op survival horror game, and that it would work. I was taking issue with the idea some gamers have that it's somehow impossible to make a tense, even "frightening" (by their standards) survival horror game focused around co-op.
I don't care if co-op is in Dead Space 2 or not - I'm buying it.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Amir0x said:
I'm a giant wuss then because I definitely think there are scary games.
I am a giant RE fan, played them all and have them memorized, and I still can't play RE Director's Cut on PSX without getting chills. Ugh at the guard house.
Dead Space was actually the first game I bought with my PS3. I could only play it for about an hour at a time because it scared the bejeezus out of me. Great monster design, great sound design, great level design, great everything.
A great example of a tense/atmospheric game is Demon's Souls. I know there's nothing in the game that will outright scare me, but the fear of dying in that game mixed with a dark corridor makes you walk extremely slow with your finger choking your shield button.
Anyway, glad to hear that DS2 is coming.
Amir0x said:
Daydreaming about playing something that will never ever happen strikes me as depressing, personally. Being realistic allows a gamer to enjoy their games more and complain a lot less about features that were never intended.
But then, GAF would be a lot emptier if everyone followed that advice all the time.
I agree that a co-op survival horror game could work, but there will be one huge variable; both players have to be immersed in the game or any atmosphere would be ruined. It can't be like two buddies playing Gears of War where they can be cracking jokes and sarcastic comments at each other. The reason horror movies work is because the characters are actually in the situation and that it's not the time to talk about some idiot you saw that stuck his tongue to a pole.
The Blue Jihad
Member
Amir0x said:
I agree with them. It's already incredibly difficult to craft a decently frightening single-player game and only a few games in recent decades have been successful in doing so. That difficulty is compounded by adding more players. And so far every idea proposed here for a co-op Dead Space experience sounds even more difficult to successfully pull off.
Now, I'll be fair with you. It's not impossible to create a genuinely frightening Alien-inspired co-op game. But it's certainly improbable, given how many variables you need to start accounting for during development. Stuff that seems so easy in these theory discussions on GAF becomes incredibly difficult to balance out successfully.
Like pacing. The dev team would have to pace not one but two different games. They would have to carefully temper the difficulty of every single section of gameplay so that neither player ever felt unfairly penalized for things completely out of their individual control. This means no insta-death no matter what. This means no bullshit Chris' QTE then Sheva's QTE then Chris' QTE RE5 nonsense. This means taking note of the worst, most frustrating split path co-op portions in Gears of War 1 and avoiding that shit like the plague.
This means making two single-player campaigns that need to play completely separately from each other.
Which then begs the question: why bother jamming in co-op anyway?
stupei said:
There are a billion new ideas come up in this industry every day. If you think someone isn't going to eventually tackle a survival horror co-op game, and do it well, you're a bigger dreamer than I am.
I don't know what's more depressing though - the idea that dreaming is somehow depressing, or the idea that people think this is about complaining about features that aren't intended.
scotcheggz
Member
Very excited about this. I really enjoyed the first one. Which reminds me, I really should play it again, soon.
Amir0x said:
Dreaming about things that aren't likely to happen anytime soon can easily produce dissatisfaction with what is already happening now. You see it in the people who will tear a game apart for not achieving something it never set out to do. I meant that those complaints are a symptom of constant dissatisfaction. If it was somehow unclear that I was referencing behaviors common on GAF as a whole and it wasn't all about you, then I apologize.
I didn't mean to suggest you can't feel free to daydream either, but berating someone because they choose to be realistic about what is going to happen in gaming anytime in the near future and would rather enjoy the games that are actually happening rather than hoping for things that might eventually come to pass is misguided. Being realistic doesn't make someone somehow less of a gamer, it just makes them different from you.
Here is where I shake my head and act better than you.
I'm not talking about the impossibility of making a scary co-operative game. In fact it's really already been done with stuff like Doom 3 and System Shock 2.Amir0x said:
I was specifically referring to the idea of splitting players up completely. It's a game mechanic that is costly and doesn't really take advantage of the co-operative elements of the game.
Honestly though horror games are just out this generation. Most developers are staying pretty far from the genre, and when co-op is integrated into the experience the game takes an action spin.
The new Alien Vs. Predator and Natural Selection 2 will have co-operative elements and still bring some incredibly scary moments of course, although they're fairly different from what you have in mind.
Stallion Free
Cock Encumbered
I fist pumped when I saw this confirmed for PC this morning. God I loved the first game. The no-grav and space sections were tremendous. Hopefully the sequels will crank those up to 11.
riceandbeans
Member
Stallion Free said:
Oh wow, that is awesome! The PC port of Dead Space kicked ass and was so well optimized. Even with my 2.8GHZ dual core, I was getting 60FPS. They just need to fix the vsync since it would make the game crazy sluggish when turned on.
Epic Tier 3 Engineer
Banned
Man, I have so been saying this in every one of these Dead Space threads. Against the vast majority, might I add.Amir0x said:
Anyway, for anyone who doesn't think Dead Space was tense, play the game on the hardest difficulty and prepare to shit your pants when you step foot on the
Military Ship
Well, it was just an example & I think it could work as a separate campaign, if necessary. I just wish devs would take the idea of coop a bit further instead of just doing the same old. Hell, one might say it's their jobThe Blue Jihad said:
I didn't mean the whole game should be two games that are completely different for two players. Just that it should be more mixed up. I believe RE5 fell pretty flat in that area. You were never very far away from each other & hardly out of eyesight for more than a few minutes, if that. And if you were, you were still pretty much in the same room. That was a strong reason why I never felt scared in that game. I always had backup at an arm's length, with a heavy arsenal to boot. Who's to say, that a coop game where two people work toward the same goal but they just happen to be in two different locations, couldn't be interesting? Sort of like a Castlevania where you unlock one of the side characters point of view of the same events, only in real time? Haven't we all wondered what it would've been like to interact with Richter's side quest, which could've occured at the same time as Alucard's, had it been more fleshed out & not just a cool addition, in SotN?Or perhaps more fittingly, what if one player got to play as that certain DS traitor, seeing how their actions more directly caused situations to arise for Isaac? I don't think we'll see this kind of coop interactivity in DS2 but it is nice to think about what the future might bring
Coop certainly comes with it technical issues but it also comes with new potential, if you're willing to go with it. I believe Amir0x is right. If you're willing to go the whole nine yards, it can be done I'm primarily talking about coop in general as well, I'm just using DS as an example here.It's over 6AM, gimme a break ^^
Coop could be really good. Lots of potential if it's done right.
But competitive multi... I don't want the devs to waste even 1 minute of development time on MP. It's a huge concern, and the fact that the 1st game didn't sell overly well means there is a good chance EA will want insurance in the form of MP.
Please no.
But competitive multi... I don't want the devs to waste even 1 minute of development time on MP. It's a huge concern, and the fact that the 1st game didn't sell overly well means there is a good chance EA will want insurance in the form of MP.
Please no.
fistfulofmetal
Banned
yeah i don't like the armor design there. it looks silly. gamey. the good thing about the design in Dead Space was that it looked functional. it seems like someone took the original armor design, slapped their hands on the page and yelled "MAKE IS SEXY!"
so eh to that.
so eh to that.
Psy-Phi
Member
Optimism is all well and good, but you're head is in the clouds wishing and hoping for something that could be. There's far too many "ifs" in your argument. That's no way to prove a point. Your theory here is the equivalent of communism in theory. Communism is great on paper, never (edit: has been) in practice.Amir0x said:
Could it be done? Sure. But like communism it's going to take a long ass time to get done right. They've been trying since at least the original AvP. And that game was scary. But when you took it online....the scares only remained because of the players playing one another and being more crafty than the AI. But it still wasn't the same kind of scare you got in the single player Marine campaign.
Don't people usually look at history for proof? I'm not being pessimistic. I'm just being realistic. I would love if someone did it right. But it's not going to happen until we get a quicker interface between players for trading or sharing ammo and healing. The Left 4 Dead franchise is a good starting point. Though action oriented as well, it's got the co-op down pat. They just need to work on a single story beggining to end, and the the fright factor. But the fright factor is the hardest thing to pull off if the barometer is a single player experience.
You could even look at it from a real-life point of view. If you've ever found yourself in the forest (or any very unfamiliar and empty place) late at night with your friends, and you hear some crazy sounds. It's not a big deal. Lose track of your friends however, or if they're playing a practical joke on you and ran off...you'll find yourself more frightened than you would be with just one friend. Being with someone allows you to keep your mind at a level of ease that can't be attained while alone and on edge.
voltron said:
The first game sold fine. The only reason to worry is that the devs did say that they had twice as many people play as they had sales which led them to believe there was obviously a high percentage of trade ins (or rentals, but nothing can be done about that) and that perhaps multiplayer would prevent that. But it's honestly naive of them to think that gamers will pay attention for very long to tacked on multiplayer in a primarily single player game. The first game sold just fine for what it was, but if they try to shove multiplayer into this one and up the budget then they might actually have a problem.
Secks4Food
Member
The armor looks more like a soldier's armor than an engineer's piece of shit excuse for a suit, which makes sense if Isaac is "taking charge", but it looks too light and nimble. I personally liked the big hulking armor in the first game, it made you feel like there was more heft and weight with every step you took and every limb you squashed.
Co-op could be cool I suppose with a good mix of fighting side-by-side and splitting up to do different things like Kendra and Hammond did in the first game. It would be especially cool if it was only the two of you with no AI comrades to constantly bug you. Oh, and a horde mode would be great too!
Competitive multiplayer could actually work pretty well. It could be a kind of zombie mode with humans vs. necromorphs. Instead of dying, all the necromorph players could get their limbs shot off, but they eventually regenerate them like that pain in the ass super necromorph in the first game. When a human dies, one of the opposing side's infector necromorphs could transform the body into one of their own unless the humans shoot off all the limbs off their fallen comrade, in which case he could respawn as a human. Then they could play until time runs out or all the humans die. That's just a thought, but I think a Dead Space vs. mode could be pretty fun.
Co-op could be cool I suppose with a good mix of fighting side-by-side and splitting up to do different things like Kendra and Hammond did in the first game. It would be especially cool if it was only the two of you with no AI comrades to constantly bug you. Oh, and a horde mode would be great too!
Competitive multiplayer could actually work pretty well. It could be a kind of zombie mode with humans vs. necromorphs. Instead of dying, all the necromorph players could get their limbs shot off, but they eventually regenerate them like that pain in the ass super necromorph in the first game. When a human dies, one of the opposing side's infector necromorphs could transform the body into one of their own unless the humans shoot off all the limbs off their fallen comrade, in which case he could respawn as a human. Then they could play until time runs out or all the humans die. That's just a thought, but I think a Dead Space vs. mode could be pretty fun.
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