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Demon’s Souls’ devs considered, and ultimately left out, an easy mode

Gods&Monsters

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I've always hated these losers game, people who never achieve stuff in their life and think a "challenging" game is an actual accomplishment.

I guess I won't get into souls game with that remake either then, bye.

You were quoted a lot with people laughing at you but I actually agree with what you said!

I already finished Demons Souls, Bloodborne and Dark Souls. I don't feel like replaying it again. I would prefer feeling like a badass and kill those monsters quickly so I can explore the world.

I don't need a "challenge" to feel like I have a big cock.
 

Saruhashi

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You were quoted a lot with people laughing at you but I actually agree with what you said!

I already finished Demons Souls, Bloodborne and Dark Souls. I don't feel like replaying it again. I would prefer feeling like a badass and kill those monsters quickly so I can explore the world.

I don't need a "challenge" to feel like I have a big cock.

Hahahaha.

"I don't need a challenge to feel like I have a big cock."

One paragraph earlier...

"I just want the game to make me feel like a badass."

Amazing.

So if an easy mode makes you feel like a badass then that's awesome but if beating the challenge makes you feel like a badass then that's lame.
 
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General Lee

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If the original Demon's Souls had had an easy mode, Souls games would have never taken off. Demon's would've been the first and last Souls game, end of story. Demon's would've been seen as a senseless short action game with no real story and nothing to write home about. Shuhei Yoshida would've been absolutely correct in his original assessment of the game.

All I see in complaints is some people with massive FOMO over a game that's clearly not for their press X for awesome big dick energy gaming style lol. They simply can't accept that it's popular exactly because it's challenging, and are feeling left out of all the hype around these games. Of course you can enjoy some aspects of these games that's hindered by the challenging aspect of the game, but that's just totally ignoring why most people play these games and why the games got off the ground to begin with.
 

THEAP99

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why can't they just add an easy mode so i can enjoy these pretty graphics ?

 
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Danjin44

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why can't they just add an easy mode so i can enjoy these pretty graphics ?
Because you don't play Souls games for graphics, you play for its gameplay.
I don't need a "challenge" to feel like I have a big cock.
Most people play Souls games because it fun, you personally might not find it fun but most people do, this exactly why Souls series became well known in the first place.
 
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Saruhashi

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These are the same people who complain about the "git gud" mentality. I honestly think that's what this is really about.

If they wanted to play "easy mode" soul games, Jedi Fallen order is right there. For some reason it's always about games connected to From software in some way

That is absolutely what it's really about.

This conversation always descends into that kind of "bashing" the community.

I've said for ages that it's just a handful of games that are like this but some people can't tolerate even that handful of games sticking to their own philosophy.
 
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TheDuskwalker

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Hahahaha.

"I don't need a challenge to feel like I have a big cock."

One paragraph earlier...

"I just want the game to make me feel like a badass."

Amazing.

So if an easy mode makes you feel like a badass then that's awesome but if beating the challenge makes you feel like a badass then that's lame.
He doesn't need challenge to make him feel like he has a big cock, yet he wants the game to make him feel like he has a big cock. I'm starting to think easy mode is slang for big cock roleplay....... I do notice easy mode beggars bring up cocks a lot.
 
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Gods&Monsters

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Hahahaha.

"I don't need a challenge to feel like I have a big cock."

One paragraph earlier...

"I just want the game to make me feel like a badass."

Amazing.

So if an easy mode makes you feel like a badass then that's awesome but if beating the challenge makes you feel like a badass then that's lame.

It's not lame. I'm just saying it would give me the same satisfaction since I already beat those bosses. Power fantasy. I'm done with dying over and over, farming, looking up strategies, videos etc. I'd rather play something else.

It wouldn't stop you from playing it on normal if you need that.
 
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Hudo

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The Soulsborne games aren't that hard, actually. They just punish impatience and and blindly rushing into things. If you take it slow, observe and be patient, you don't really die all that often in my experience. The only times I was having a hard time was when I got overconfident and tried to speed through an area.

In a sense, it's the "Anti-Twitch" game, so to speak.
 

ColdAfternoon

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The gatekeeping is real. The souls games are not popular because you die to a boss over and over forcing you to get good, but in spite of it. It's just immersion breaking design.

The beauty in their difficulty stems in the lack of fast travel (fuck you ds3), mini map, clear guides of where and what you need to do, the slower pacing.

Having this said, an easier mode allows more viable melee builds other than weapon and shield, playing the game without relying on summonings or looking up strategies, and ensures you can pick it up again after a longer break.

The devs can hide the games true ending in this mode, or maybe they can flip the concept on its head and add better drops at the higher difficulty.
 

Spukc

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When they add an easy mode later down this games life. I will have so much fucking CROW to serve in this thread 🤣
 
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Certinty

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Shame, they lost a sale from me.

I don’t get how this is different from let’s say F1 2020. Real life F1 cars have no TBS, no ABS with every other car on the hardest AI level. Yet Codemasters let us tweak what we want for a user experience that suits us...
 
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smorgasbird

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Shame, they lost a sale from me.

I don’t get how this is different from let’s say F1 2020. Real life F1 cars have no TBS, no ABS with every other car on the hardest AI level. Yet Codemasters let us tweak what we want for a user experience that suits us...

The only thing missing from the easy mode people was a car analogy. We have now achieved peak fallacy.
 

Certinty

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The only thing missing from the easy mode people was a car analogy. We have now achieved peak fallacy.
My point is there are a ton of games out there which lose the “experience” devs are wanting to give through difficulty options yet most games still offer them. Why should this be an exception?
 
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reptilex

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You were quoted a lot with people laughing at you but I actually agree with what you said!

I already finished Demons Souls, Bloodborne and Dark Souls. I don't feel like replaying it again. I would prefer feeling like a badass and kill those monsters quickly so I can explore the world.

I don't need a "challenge" to feel like I have a big cock.

Exactly my point, give people the choice to have a challenge or just explore/enjoy a game on their term.

If not then they're willingly cutting themselves out from audiences with an unnecessary, pretentious game design choice.

It's a shame because the universe/concept and gameplay always intrigued me, but I never even tried when I saw walkthrough and understand what the "difficulty" was about. It's called "hard difficulty" in any other games, nothing groundbreaking or edgy, except when you want to force people into it: nope, not a loser teen with something to prove through gaming, been there done that, now an adult who doesn't have time or patience.
 

smorgasbird

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My point is there are a ton of games out there which lose the “experience” devs are wanting to give through difficulty options yet most games still offer them. Why should this be an exception?

Exceptions are things that apply to rules. You're positioning yourself as having won by default ("it is a rule that games should have customizable difficulty") and then act like because DeS is an exception, it needs to justify the way it is.

But it does not. The people arguing in favor of the change should justify it, but they are not able nor do they listen about the various things already present in the game that make it easy, and indeed much easier than its reputation suggests.
 
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Saruhashi

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Shame, they lost a sale from me.

I don’t get how this is different from let’s say F1 2020. Real life F1 cars have no TBS, no ABS with every other car on the hardest AI level. Yet Codemasters let us tweak what we want for a user experience that suits us...

I don't like racing games.
Shame, Codemasters lost a sale from me.

Why don't they make their racing game more like a puzzle game? Or a platfomer?

At least they should provide the option.

Options are never a bad thing and since I'd never buy a racing game putting in an option to turn it into a platformer would sell more copies of the game.

What if I just want to look at the cars and the landscapes? Couldn't Codemasters offer a book version of the game with lots of cool computer generated pictures?

What's up with these developers making the game that they want to make?
 
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Saruhashi

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My point is there are a ton of games out there which lose the “experience” devs are wanting to give through difficulty options yet most games still offer them. Why should this be an exception?

Why should anyone need to justify being the exception?

I'd see your point if ALL games were like this.

If every game had violence or was punsihingly difficult or had overly complex systems etc then sure why not have some games that are easier or simpler or just don't take themselves so seriously.

We are talking about a small number of games per console generation though. So why wouldnt we actually want exceptions?

More games are great. More distinctive types of games are great. More creative freedom for developers is great.

If one or two devs think "we don't want to offer difficulty options" then why wouldn't we just allow them to be an exception?

It's not like its every game that's like this and it's not like anyone has enough time to play EVERY game in the world anyway so...
 

Roufianos

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People play TLOU to experience the story and people play Souls games for gameplay and that difficulty is part of that gameplay same way high violence part of TLOU's story. One big part makes exploration so rewarding in Souls series because its risky, you might lose everything at any moment which makes the experience rewarding.

Yea that's true but the Souls games also have some amazing combat and enemy designs which people might want to experience

Also as you say the environments are incredible and warrant exploring.

There's a lot more to these games beyond the difficulty. Some people might not be in it for something else.

As long as the core game was built without compromise, I don't really see an issue with an easy mode being made afterward.
 
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Airola

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Well yeah, all it is is a toggle that goes

EASY
NORMAL
HARD

The fact that you think this option would make some people be more interested in the game just proves that it matters how the game presents itself in the menu screen.

It is a very important thing. The game's presentation is something when there aren't those options shown and available to you, and the game's presentation is something else when those options are available and shown to you. The vast majority of the fans of these games, and the developers of these games too, think these games are better with the presentation that doesn't give you these options. These games got notoriety from that presentation.

You put that option to the game and its presentation changes drastically. By giving that option, you remove the option for people to play a game that has a presentation like this. There are only handful of games that have this kind of a presentation, so why would you ever want to make the world to have even less games with that presentation?

Just don't play the game if you don't like the presentation. Let these games be.
I mean, I don't play these games either and I'm just fine without playing them. But I sure do appreciate it that these kinds of games exist.
 
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LarknThe4th

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The fact that you think this option would make some people be more interested in the game just proves that it matters how the game presents itself in the menu screen.

It is a very important thing. The game's presentation is something when there aren't those options shown and available to you, and the game's presentation is something else when those options are available and shown to you. The vast majority of the fans of these games, and the developers of these games too, think these games are better with the presentation that doesn't give you these options. These games got notoriety from that presentation.

You put that option to the game and its presentation changes drastically. By giving that option, you remove the option for people to play a game that has a presentation like this. There are only handful of games that have this kind of a presentation, so why would you ever want to make the world to have even less games with that presentation?

Just don't play the game if you don't like the presentation. Let these games be.
I do play them though(well not the Demon Souls remake)

I don't see how it makes the games worse, like in any metric whatsoever
 

Airola

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I do play them though(well not the Demon Souls remake)

I don't see how it makes the games worse, like in any metric whatsoever

You don't understand the presentation then. That's all.
A lot of people understand it. Even I understand it and I don't even play these games.
 

LarknThe4th

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You don't understand the presentation then. That's all.
A lot of people understand it. Even I understand it and I don't even play these games.
Well I have played and cleared them all, and the "presentation" is pretty obvious, what I'm saying is why do regular players of the series believe that an easy mode would make the series of games worse, I'm not asking for one, the creators have decided they wont have one so that's that

But as a fan of the series I dont think its controversial(and the fact that it sort of is fascinates me honestly) to debate as to why the inclusion of one would make the regular Souls mode worse

Lots of back and forths on it yesterday, love good strong virulent debate
 

MoreJRPG

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An easy mode for this type of game doesn’t make sense at all. That’s the entire reason this franchise is so popular. The brutal difficulty it has where you need to master the intricacies of the system.

I remember Bloodborne I was stuck in that opening area for hours until everything finally clicked. That feeling in Souls game where everything “clicks” is unmatched in gaming.

You would be robbing people of that if there was an easy mode.
 

Alexios

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You can literally roll into attacks in these games. So unforgiving. :(

I mean, that guy can, you probably can't, since it's not the whole roll that has invincibility but only specific frames that guy has gotten down to a T alongside the enemy attack frames and most people don't experiment to discover to that degree as it's hidden to the user anyway.
 
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billyxci

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good decision. the game would be worse off if there was an easy mode for the cry babies.
 

Airola

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Well I have played and cleared them all, and the "presentation" is pretty obvious, what I'm saying is why do regular players of the series believe that an easy mode would make the series of games worse, I'm not asking for one, the creators have decided they wont have one so that's that

But as a fan of the series I dont think its controversial(and the fact that it sort of is fascinates me honestly) to debate as to why the inclusion of one would make the regular Souls mode worse

Lots of back and forths on it yesterday, love good strong virulent debate

It's not "presentation" in quotes. It's presentation, without quotes.
There are people who like to make games that present themselves as something that does not at any point offer to make the challenge that killed you to become easier by pressing a button.
There are people who like to play games that present themselves as something that does not at any point offer to make the challenge that killed you to become easier by pressing a button.

That presentation is not there when you add an easy mode. I don't understand what is so confusing about that.
 

LarknThe4th

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It's not "presentation" in quotes. It's presentation, without quotes.
There are people who like to make games that present themselves as something that does not at any point offer to make the challenge that killed you to become easier by pressing a button.
There are people who like to play games that present themselves as something that does not at any point offer to make the challenge that killed you to become easier by pressing a button.

That presentation is not there when you add an easy mode. I don't understand what is so confusing about that.
I'm well aware of the culture around Souls games, not even criticising it every videogame has a bunch of shit takes and healthy ones(Super Mario 3D World in particular suffers from this with some strange people not even considering it a "proper" 3D mario game)

What I am asking is very, very simple, how does an easy mode make the regular Souls experience I.e the Normal mode we will call it(which would play exactly like the other 5 souls games I have played and cleared) any worse, I argue wit doesn't change it in the slightest, because it doesn't
 

Airola

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What I am asking is very, very simple, how does an easy mode make the regular Souls experience I.e the Normal mode we will call it(which would play exactly like the other 5 souls games I have played and cleared) any worse, I argue wit doesn't change it in the slightest, because it doesn't

Yes, it changes the presentation of the game.

Big part of the idea of the game is that when you get thrown back to the menu screen or when you start the game over the next day there is no way to change what had killed you to be any easier. The lack of that option is a core feature of the game. A lot of fans understand that and they love that. The developers understand that and love that.

This has been explained to you over and over again. You are advocating for sacrificing the essential presentation of the whole series in favor of getting people who don't like that presentation to play the game, which makes no sense whatsoever. Integrity of an idea in art and entertainment is more important than accessibility, especially if that accessibility means removing the presentation and the integrity.
 

Duellist

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I think they should come out and say "we decided to listen to the public and patch in more difficulty options" then when you start the game the modes are Normal and more difficult. Just to further piss off all the whiners.
 
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Ten_Fold

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Not every game needs an easy mode, souls games tbh isn’t even all that hard. Yeah your probably gonna die ALOT, but that’s the beauty of finally beating tough boss fights. I swear people just want everything easy nowadays.
 

smorgasbird

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I mean, that guy can, you probably can't, since it's not the whole roll that has invincibility but only specific frames that guy has gotten down to a T alongside the enemy attack frames and most people don't experiment to discover to that degree as it's hidden to the user anyway.

I'm a klutz and I can do it. The timing is not that precise. Just be mid-roll when it hits. Literally pretend you want it to hit you head on.
 
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I'm well aware of the culture around Souls games, not even criticising it every videogame has a bunch of shit takes and healthy ones(Super Mario 3D World in particular suffers from this with some strange people not even considering it a "proper" 3D mario game)

What I am asking is very, very simple, how does an easy mode make the regular Souls experience I.e the Normal mode we will call it(which would play exactly like the other 5 souls games I have played and cleared) any worse, I argue wit doesn't change it in the slightest, because it doesn't
I'm gonna quote a reddit comment I made awhile back. It applies to Sekiro, but it can probably be tweaked to make argument for all of the Soulsborne titles.
TLDR: Sekiro is not difficult for the sake of being difficult. The experience it provides requires players to have a certain level of mastery of gameplay mechanics (e.g. deflection and exploiting the posture system) -- this is what makes it difficult. This argument applies to any of the other Soulsborne titles, too.

Buckle in because this is gonna be a long one.

To play Sekiro, you really have embrace the mindset of a motherfucking NINJA. Having difficulty settings wouldn't make sense because it would result in an altogether different experience. However, for the sake of the argument let's consider tweaking different aspects of the game that might make it more accessible.

You could slow down enemy attack animations. When fighting against samurais, shinobis, and other individuals in world that places a large emphasis on swordsmanship and hand-to-hand combat, it wouldn't make any sense for the player to always be quicker than his enemies. Sekiro is incredibly fast, but so are his opponents. Besting your opponents requires skill and quick reactions... like a ninja. One of the best moments in the game is when the player becomes painfully aware of their own growth in skill and those enemies that gave you so much trouble at the beginning of the game get absolutely destroyed if you encounter them later on (e.g. Lone Shadow Longswordsman and Juzou the Drunkard). Hesitation is defeat.

You could make enemies less aggressive. This kinda ties into the whole ninja experience I keep referring to. Engagements in Sekiro are meant to be quick and brutal. Enemy aggression forces the player into battle of quick wit and skillful swordplay. Also, you aren't meant to take on large groups of enemies at the same time; stealth tactics help you wittle down groups until you get to focus on one-on-one duels.

You could have enemies deal less damage. This would be the easiest thing to tweak, but would detract from the emphasis placed on quick and brutal gameplay. Also, swords are meant to be lethal and enemies should be able to kill you as quickly as you can kill them. In my honest opinion, I hate damage sponges and people that just try to tank everything.

You could place less emphasis on the posture system. Have you seen Sekiro's katana? It's tiny. Have you seen the enemies he goes up against? They're huge. Sekiro isn't meant to block everything hence the emphasis on deflection and posture damage. You want the fights to be over quickly so you need to attack aggressively and overwhelm an enemies posture to get that sweet, sweet deathblow. Also, those big dudes aren't gonna go down easy unless you cripple their posture recovery by getting in some attacks to their vitality here and there. Soley focusing on chipping at an opponents health will cause a fight to drag and should be a huge indicator that you aren't approaching things correctly.

You could widen the timing window for deflections. The window for deflections has been expertly tuned in my opinion. If they make it any wider then you rob the player of the sense of accomplishment they feel when they actually pull off a perfectly timed deflection.


To those people who bought the game and can't come to grips with its difficulty... Newsflash: FromSoftware titles are notoriously difficult. If you knew that going in then I can assume that you're probably getting your ass handed to you because you're trying to play the game like a Soulsborne game (e.g. dodge or sidestep to victory). The game explicitly punishes the style of play. Mastering deflection and the posture system is absolutely key to finishing this game. Genichiro is the first wall in the game that absolutely forces players to come to terms with this fact.

As for being elitist/snobby about difficulty in video games... With respect to Sekiro, maybe I just get annoyed when a game of this style and quality is rare to come by and then a bunch of people complain that the game can't be made to exactly suit their desires and/or are too lazy to actually play the game in its intended way. Sekiro isn't a game for that type of person and catering to accessibility would undermine almost everything the game does. The reason why FromSoftware's game are so damn good is because they don't give a damn if everyone will like their games -- they have faith in themselves and are confident in the experiences they embrace in their titles.

God of War is great game and is accessible to a lot of people. I play God of War when I want to experience being a freaking god and live out a power fantasy without really having to try. I play Sekiro when I want to be a master shinobi and actually feel like I earned that description.
 
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oagboghi2

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My point is there are a ton of games out there which lose the “experience” devs are wanting to give through difficulty options yet most games still offer them. Why should this be an exception?
Why shouldn't it be an exception? Why does every game have to hold your hand?
 
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Knightime_X

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90% of what makes the atmosphere of the games good is how opressive it feels and the risk/reward ratio.

Most of the people that say that they would enjoy a Souls game if it had an easy mode don't even know what they are saying.
This is like saying you can't enjoy the atmosphere of being out in the woods because there isn't any polar bears and tigers to worry about.
 
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Kuranghi

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People who want an easy mode:

 
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AV

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That feeling in Souls game where everything “clicks” is unmatched in gaming.

Yep. For me it was the bell gargoyles in DS1. Took over a dozen attempts and then suddenly I just "got" it, and proceeded to beat the game and then beat every other From game back to back over a year. It was incredible.

If I was playing on easy and beat those gargoyles on the first time with hardly any challenge, I probably wouldn't have done what I did, and it wouldn't be remotely the same experience.