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Opinion Demons Souls PS5 - a technical Discussion

TheTechnician

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So with PS5 and Demons Souls finaly here i think it is worth a look into the technical Achievements the Game has made.
The DF / Bluepoint Interview is particular enlightening:


The Game has advantages in several Aspects but there is only one true Next Gen Advancement

Its streaming System! It makes use of PS5s I/O Block and its tremendeous Throughput.
At 6:50 it is stated that the Games wireframes Models are so detailed that on last Gen they would send them back to the Artist to "optimize" aka downgrade in polygons .
They say that with PS5 that is not an issue anymore. Sounds pretty much like what we heard in that UE5 Demo with Assets being ported directly from Z LIB without any downgrade in complexity.
And the Game for shure looks like it - the polygoncount is unachieved so far in any other Game or any other platform PC included.

at around 15:00 into the Video they start talk about the SSD and the Streaming System. The Reason for this is of course PS5s I/O Block.
Bluepoint says that the stream 3-4GB/s continiously (so not only during loading levels) while you play the game.
The Lead Developer Marc says then at 17:00 that you cannot handle such a datastream of compressed Assets, Textures with a software solution. In Software would mean the CPU are responsible to decompress the data.
It is further stated that Software Solution would by far to slow. So you need the PS5s hardware I/O Capabilitys to pull it of.
So even that early in this Gen we see the fruits of Cernys ingenious Design. Who would have thought.
And the Game is scratching only the surface of PS5s I/O Throughput wich could go as high as 22GB/S.






 

TheTechnician

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thx for pointing out the other thread abut the discussion - but since its buried allready and nobody there did engage about the streaming of 3-4GB/s of data - i wouldlike to continiue here - if the mods dont mind.
Blows my mind that the biggest Fact was overlooked by everyone...
it is the only one thing that makes actually look Next Gen ... mindblowing
 
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thx for pointing out the other thread abut the discussion - but since its buried allready and nobody there did engage about the streaming of 3-4GB/s of data - i wouldlike to continiue here - if the mods dont mind.
Blows my mind that the biggest Fact was overlooked by everyone...
it is the only one thing that makes actually look Next Gen ... mindblowing
Cerny is a genius and so too are Bluepoint Games.

Lets hope Sony acquires them ASAP!
 

AJUMP23

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Lets hope Sony acquires them ASAP!


It might actually be a better deal to keep Bluepoint as a contract studio. It can reduce overhead and probably reduces profit sharing when the games meet sales targets. I think they will purchase them, but as a leader you wouldn't want to do anything that messes with the secret sauce the Bluepoint has put together to be productive.
 

GymWolf

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My general feeling is that the locations look far more "nextgen" than the characters\mobs that are not much better than the best on current gen.

I think they were a bit limited by the original material.

Can't wait to see a game that is completely new and completely developed on ps5 from day zero, so probably something in the next 2-3 years.
 
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It might actually be a better deal to keep Bluepoint as a contract studio. It can reduce overhead and probably reduces profit sharing when the games meet sales targets. I think they will purchase them, but as a leader you wouldn't want to do anything that messes with the secret sauce the Bluepoint has put together to be productive.
That's a great point you've made and I suspected that's the case as well, but that acquisition thirst is real lol.
 
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VFXVeteran

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And the Game for shure looks like it - the polygoncount is unachieved so far in any other Game or any other platform PC included.

Thanks for inviting me in this thread. :messenger_beaming:

The Game has advantages in several Aspects but there is only one true Next Gen Advancement

Its streaming System! It makes use of PS5s I/O Block and its tremendeous Throughput.

At 6:50 it is stated that the Games wireframes Models are so detailed that on last Gen they would send them back to the Artist to "optimize" aka downgrade in polygons .
They say that with PS5 that is not an issue anymore. Sounds pretty much like what we heard in that UE5 Demo with Assets being ported directly from Z LIB without any downgrade in complexity.

Where do they state that they are streaming in geometry on a per frame basis due to too much polygon throughput to store in VRAM? I never heard this once. I heard that the polygons were detailed and I heard that they could be loaded into VRAM faster by using it to load as you turn around a corner as opposed to being forced to load at the beginning of a level.

So you are spreading FUD without backing it up with concrete verification.

They also mention that the max polys is 60k for a character. God of War touts 80k and it runs on a PS4.

The Lead Developer Marc says then at 17:00 that you cannot handle such a datastream of compressed Assets, Textures with a software solution. In Software would mean the CPU are responsible to decompress the data.

Yes, but where does this prove that the assets are so high in quality that they push above what we've seen today like 8k textures? A console may not be able to handle compressed Assets and would drop FPS but not likely for high-end PC boards.

I
So even that early in this Gen we see the fruits of Cernys ingenious Design. Who would have thought.
And the Game is scratching only the surface of PS5s I/O Throughput wich could go as high as 22GB/S.

This game is NOT using SSD to render on-the-fly geometry within the same frame limited only by the view frustrum streaming like Nanite. They never stated that.


What's special abou this hallway? The lighting is baked out lightmaps. The floor doesn't have good enough PBR specular lighting. The normal maps on the pillars fade away too rapidly.


Typical metal that's dull to the look. You can still see polygon edges on the character and the tree branches in the distance. No SSS on the zombie. And the light source on the soldier belt is fake and not real.


Great textures!! I'll give them that. This game has really top notch stone and ground textures. Light sources on the ground don't cast dynamic shadows.
 

VFXVeteran

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My general feeling is that the locations look far more "nextgen" than the characters\mobs that are not much better than the best on current gen.

Yea, I don't understand the artifical hype over the characters. They look typical status quo. I get much much better attraction from the environments of the ground and wall textures.

Can't wait to see a game that is completely new and completely developed on ps5 from day zero, so probably something in the next 2-3 years.

They are at the PS5's limit here already. What could they add and maintain their FPS budget? Surely not RT. They already mentioned it would be too costly. IF they made it open world, they'd have to remove features as the draw distance would become a bottleneck (like most open world games). I guess they could add better approximations to their PBR shaders but I am not seeing any other added benefit. I guess they could use Nanite-like tech to get even better density of meshes.
 
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They are at the PS5's limit here already. What could they add and maintain their FPS budget? Surely not RT. They already mentioned it would be too costly. IF they made it open world, they'd have to remove features as the draw distance would become a bottleneck (like most open world games). I guess they could add better approximations to their PBR shaders but I am not seeing any other added benefit. I guess they could use Nanite-like tech to get even better density of meshes.
Ummm, who says they reached the PS5's limit already?

Judging by previous generations, some of the most impressive console showings end up releasing during the last year of the console cycle (See TLOU2 and GoT).

Speaking of RT, Bluepoint confirmed that lack of manpower/dev time was the reason for no RT, not that the PS5 reached its limit already.

Remember: PS5 customized architecture is NOT the same as PC architecture.
 

xPikYx

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I keep saying this is the first real next gen title, the complexity of the 3d models is exactly what makes the difference, they are perfectly rounded, no more squared shapes, this is the real technology advancement i was expecting from next-gen, it is a good start for thus generation, I'm less disappointed now and more relaxed about next gen
 

TheTechnician

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Thanks for inviting me in this thread. :messenger_beaming:





Where do they state that they are streaming in geometry on a per frame basis due to too much polygon throughput to store in VRAM? I never heard this once. I heard that the polygons were detailed and I heard that they could be loaded into VRAM faster by using it to load as you turn around a corner as opposed to being forced to load at the beginning of a level.

So you are spreading FUD without backing it up with concrete verification.

They also mention that the max polys is 60k for a character. God of War touts 80k and it runs on a PS4.



Yes, but where does this prove that the assets are so high in quality that they push above what we've seen today like 8k textures? A console may not be able to handle compressed Assets and would drop FPS but not likely for high-end PC boards.

I

This game is NOT using SSD to render on-the-fly geometry within the same frame limited only by the view frustrum streaming like Nanite. They never stated that.



What's special abou this hallway? The lighting is baked out lightmaps. The floor doesn't have good enough PBR specular lighting. The normal maps on the pillars fade away too rapidly.



Typical metal that's dull to the look. You can still see polygon edges on the character and the tree branches in the distance. No SSS on the zombie. And the light source on the soldier belt is fake and not real.



Great textures!! I'll give them that. This game has really top notch stone and ground textures. Light sources on the ground don't cast dynamic shadows.

Welcome - so that 60k Polygon Figure cannot be true and the Devs seemd unsure about that ,i found that strange actualy , but they also said the just added stuff as long as the bar was still green wich is a layman thing to say - so they either did not know for real or wanted certain achievments to be revealed by themselfs. They also point something like that out in the interview.
So 60k cannot be true - they Charakters look like much much more polygons. Especialy with other known polycounts in mind like from Alloy as you correctly stated.

i realy dont want to talk about the lighting in particular - its real time GI and it looks very good.

I heard that the polygons were detailed and I heard that they could be loaded into VRAM faster by using it to load as you turn around a corner as opposed to being forced to load at the beginning of a level.
So they load them in ( along with every other Data) during Gameplay and they do so by using PS5s I/O Capabilitys. 3-4GB/s is streamed continiosly - there is no room for wiggle around or twist words or whatever.
Demons Souls is the first Game that does this - simply because no other System is currently capable of mimiking it. PC will catch up eventually with the release of Direct Storage - but until then - PS5 leeds here. Theres no shame in admiting that.

And their Polygonslvls vary by use of Tesselation. Probably by with use of PS5s Geometry Engine.

The Game looks betters than anything else right now. The high Polycount is visible everywhere, on Charakters and the Enviroment.

So on one Hand we have a System wich is known for its Capabilitys of pushing Geometry (UE5 Demo anyone?) and its revolutionary I/O Throughput...

On the other Hand i have a Game( for that very System) that like no Game yet pushes for geometric Detail surpassing all known Games in that regards. Why the Hell would i not assume its the beforementioned capabilitys of said System that are in use here?
 
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Keihart

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i was actually very impressed with the meshes details every time someone looked this game upclose, and in this video they confirm that they are using some very high amounts of dynamic tesselation, so much so that they are using micro shadowing and other tricks to keep the dynamic lighting in those details without tanking performance.
 
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GymWolf

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I think that the thunderjaw in horizon still has the record for number of polygons in a single creature, something like 550.000 polygons:messenger_astonished:
 

BlueXImpulse

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I agree with John. This game could have released at the end of the PS5 cycle and not look out of place but we all know Sony are going to top this many times throughout the generation. If this game has received hate from some for looking better than anything on any other platform used for gaming, just wait until you take the shackles off SSM, ND and GG.
 
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TheTechnician

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Ummm, who says they reached the PS5's limit already?

Judging by previous generations, some of the most impressive console showings end up releasing during the last year of the console cycle (See TLOU2 and GoT).

Speaking of RT, Bluepoint confirmed that lack of manpower/dev time was the reason for no RT, not that the PS5 reached its limit already.

Remember: PS5 customized architecture is NOT the same as PC architecture.

They reached the Limits of HIS processing capabilitys thats for sure - PS5s? Not so much. They did not even scratch the surface yet..
 

sncvsrtoip

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Thanks for inviting me in this thread. :messenger_beaming:





Where do they state that they are streaming in geometry on a per frame basis due to too much polygon throughput to store in VRAM? I never heard this once. I heard that the polygons were detailed and I heard that they could be loaded into VRAM faster by using it to load as you turn around a corner as opposed to being forced to load at the beginning of a level.

So you are spreading FUD without backing it up with concrete verification.

They also mention that the max polys is 60k for a character. God of War touts 80k and it runs on a PS4.



Yes, but where does this prove that the assets are so high in quality that they push above what we've seen today like 8k textures? A console may not be able to handle compressed Assets and would drop FPS but not likely for high-end PC boards.

I

This game is NOT using SSD to render on-the-fly geometry within the same frame limited only by the view frustrum streaming like Nanite. They never stated that.



What's special abou this hallway? The lighting is baked out lightmaps. The floor doesn't have good enough PBR specular lighting. The normal maps on the pillars fade away too rapidly.



Typical metal that's dull to the look. You can still see polygon edges on the character and the tree branches in the distance. No SSS on the zombie. And the light source on the soldier belt is fake and not real.



Great textures!! I'll give them that. This game has really top notch stone and ground textures. Light sources on the ground don't cast dynamic shadows.
aren't you that guy who created threat that bg3 looks nextgen ? so if bg3 looks netgen then demon souls remake looks like it's some alien technology game ;d
 
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Ummm, who says they reached the PS5's limit already?

Judging by previous generations, some of the most impressive console showings end up releasing during the last year of the console cycle (See TLOU2 and GoT).

Speaking of RT, Bluepoint confirmed that lack of manpower/dev time was the reason for no RT, not that the PS5 reached its limit already.

Remember: PS5 customized architecture is NOT the same as PC architecture.

Welcome back slut 💋
 
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TheTechnician

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aren't you that guy who created threat that bg3 looks nextgen ? so if bg3 looks netgen than demon souls remake looks like it's some alien technology game ;d
you mean Baldur Gate 3? Nope was not me..
oopsy did not read your Comment correctly.. so did he ? That is quite interesting ..
thx BlueXImpulse BlueXImpulse for adding the Interview - thats good for context .
 
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The lighting in the nexus gets me every time. So good.


I agree yo...I was playing this morning and went back to level up in the Nexus and caught myself just walking around and looking at the way the light bends around the suit of armor lol

Game looks so good.
 

VFXVeteran

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Ummm, who says they reached the PS5's limit already?

Judging by previous generations, some of the most impressive console showings end up releasing during the last year of the console cycle (See TLOU2 and GoT).

Speaking of RT, Bluepoint confirmed that lack of manpower/dev time was the reason for no RT, not that the PS5 reached its limit already.


Remember: PS5 customized architecture is NOT the same as PC architecture.

I can address that.

FACT: We know that native 4k is pretty much unachievable at 60FPS.. That's a clear indication of the amount of GPU power you have left for adding extra features.

FACT: 4k/30FPS is pretty much the max you will get with 1 RT feature that we've seen. Reflections is very expensive and is one of the most expensive RT features to pull off.

FACT: So far from all the PS5 exclusive games, there is nothing we haven't seen before graphics wise. Assets are comparable to what's already out now. We've clearly seen that Spiderman MM has less detail than DeS due to the open world nature of the game. There is no reason to think one of these companies will pull a rabbit from the magic hat.

SO, that leaves - what are we going to add to maintain 4k/30FPS?

What kind of leap you think can be made (it must be a LEAP) in visuals that can maintain the same throughput. For example, let's talk about texture sizes. Crysis REmake right now is the only game that renders out 8k textures everywhere in the game. The amount of data is enormous, but can the PS5 output such fidelity without sacrificing anything else?

This is how you explore real limits and not just wishlist ideas.
 
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VFXVeteran

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60K polys for standard human sized characters

AKA the fodder enemies

80K for GoW is for Kratos

Try harder

NO. 60k for the main character also in DeS. That's the MAX they mentioned.

80k for Kratos.. ok.. my point still stands.. it's implemented on a PS4.

I bet you I can do some digging and find HZD most expensive models too and they'll be in that range as well.

The geometry detail of the characters in this game is just an imaginary dream guys. It's simply nothing there to show that it trounces every single game that has come out on any platform. Nothing at all.
 

VFXVeteran

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Here goes the Playstation party pooper. :rolleyes:

Oh stop it. This thread was made so I can come in and discuss. Can you now in turn DISCUSS and not troll... the only requirement is having some solid evidence to back up your claims.
 
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NO. 60k for the main character also in DeS. That's the MAX they mentioned.

80k for Kratos.. ok.. my point still stands.. it's implemented on a PS4.

I bet you I can do some digging and find HZD most expensive models too and they'll be in that range as well.

The geometry detail of the characters in this game is just an imaginary dream guys. It's simply nothing there to show that it trounces every single game that has come out on any platform. Nothing at all.

They said 60K for standard human sized characters (plural). Might also be for your main character too, since you know it's a character creator. You're not going to find the same level of attention to detail compared to Kratos.

You'll probably find that in GoW the standard fodder enemies won't even be close to 60K, nevermind 80K

Again, try harder

And do you seriously think 60K is going to be the max in Demon's Souls? Period?
 
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VFXVeteran

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I keep saying this is the first real next gen title, the complexity of the 3d models is exactly what makes the difference, they are perfectly rounded, no more squared shapes, this is the real technology advancement i was expecting from next-gen, it is a good start for thus generation, I'm less disappointed now and more relaxed about next gen

While the geometry overall is pretty rounded, not all assets are that way. Trees still suffer from polygonal edges.

 

DonJuanSchlong

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Did Bluepoint state the size of the data being streamed? I haven't seen anything confirmed yet. But anyways, the game is beautiful and it's interesting to see some of the familiar areas with an upgraded look. Very nostalgic. While it looks good, I don't think it's exactly the best looking game, like some are touting it.

I just wonder if the Demon Souls announcement, coming to other consoles and PC is true, how many will still say this is the most beautiful game ever? I remember when Horizon had that title until...

I wonder how the games performance would be impacted with raytracing, and would love to see if they had a demo with it in action. If mid gen refreshes cease to exist this time around, it may be until the ps6 when they can implement higher quality raytracing and higher framerates with it enabled.
 

VFXVeteran

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They said 60K for standard human sized characters (plural). Might also be for your main character too, since you know it's a character creator. You're not going to find the same level of attention to detail compared to Kratos.

You'll probably find that in GoW the standard fodder enemies won't even be close to 60K, nevermind 80K

Again, try harder

And do you seriously think 60K is going to be the max in Demon's Souls? Period?

You try harder. You are telling me "might" and "probably" with nothing to back up your claim.
 
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You try harder. You are telling me "might" and "probably" with nothing to back up your claim.

Who cares anyway? Your point is still fucking stupid because the 60K applies to standard human sized characters which amounts to one or two minor enemy types in the game
 
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xPikYx

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While the geometry overall is pretty rounded, not all assets are that way. Trees still suffer from polygonal edges.

You are right, but the fact I missed that it means it is a smart management of the geometry budget since they are used for more important stuff and you don't really realize that easily, plus this is a launch game, we can expect better games going ahead
 

TheTechnician

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Did Bluepoint state the size of the data being streamed? I haven't seen anything confirmed yet. But anyways, the game is beautiful and it's interesting to see some of the familiar areas with an upgraded look. Very nostalgic. While it looks good, I don't think it's exactly the best looking game, like some are touting it.

I just wonder if the Demon Souls announcement, coming to other consoles and PC is true, how many will still say this is the most beautiful game ever? I remember when Horizon had that title until...

I wonder how the games performance would be impacted with raytracing, and would love to see if they had a demo with it in action. If mid gen refreshes cease to exist this time around, it may be until the ps6 when they can implement higher quality raytracing and higher framerates with it enabled.
in the video from Post Nr 30 Timecode 17:00
btw VFXVeteran - whats your stance on that 3-4GB/s datastreaming?
 
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FranXico

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They are at the PS5's limit here already. What could they add and maintain their FPS budget? Surely not RT. They already mentioned it would be too costly.
They never said they hit the limit of the hardware, I'm pretty sure they even expressed excitement about getting more out of it in the future.

As for RT, they mentioned in the interview that after a quick exploration, they decided to not go ahead with it because of development constraints, not hardware limits - other PS5 games managed to feature it, after all.

The notion that a launch game - one that you even claim would look pretty much the same on current gen at that - is pushing the console it was made for to its limits is absolutely ridiculous. You can't be serious.
 

mckmas8808

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They never said they hit the limit of the hardware, I'm pretty sure they even expressed excitement about getting more out of it in the future.

As for RT, they mentioned in the interview that after a quick exploration, they decided to not go ahead with it because of development constraints, not hardware limits - other PS5 games managed to feature it, after all.

The notion that a launch game - one that you even claim would look pretty much the same on current gen at that - is pushing the console it was made for to its limits is absolutely ridiculous. You can't be serious.

Sadly he is serious. 😩
 
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SirTerry-T

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My general feeling is that the locations look far more "nextgen" than the characters\mobs that are not much better than the best on current gen.

I think they were a bit limited by the original material.

Can't wait to see a game that is completely new and completely developed on ps5 from day zero, so probably something in the next 2-3 years.
Character models won't benefit as much as static objects (environment assets, etc), with this new tech.
It's ok having a character made of a gazillion polygons in Zbrush but exporting that model out and rigging it, prepping it for export into the game engine would be next to impossible.
Environment assets don't really need all that stuff, so you can bang out your high detail model from your sculpting package and use "as is"....which is really simplifying the process but you get the picture :)
 
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VFXVeteran

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Who cares anyway? Your point is still fucking stupid because the 60K applies to standard human sized characters which amounts to one or two minor enemy types in the game

Here's your claim:

DeS has the most triangles of any game to date.

Proof? The characters in the game look rounded and the developers said that you can't even see the triangles that make up the geometry in wireframe mode.

You have

- NO proof of other games using significantly less polys
- NO visual difference between these characters and other characters in other games (i.e. GoW uses more polys for main character and we don't know what those monsters have either)
- NO verification that the game is using some advanced form of geometry cache system like Nanite

Your turn? Because that's a baseless claim just to win points.
 

VFXVeteran

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You are right, but the fact I missed that it means it is a smart management of the geometry budget since they are used for more important stuff and you don't really realize that easily, plus this is a launch game, we can expect better games going ahead

And I challenge that statement by asking with what resources? If the PS5 is already limited to 4k/30FPS with that polygon budget, where is the extra power going to come from to add more to the polygon budget and still maintain the performance envelope?
 
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