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Opinion Demons Souls PS5 - a technical Discussion

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Deer/Dur
Feb 2, 2009
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Game looks great, that it doesn't need this years new "hotness" in terms of technology just demonstrates that the end result is way more important than the means used to get there.

I'd also add that when judging the hardware used to run it, I think you need to factor in that on top of the graphics hardware, your $500 is also paying for a remarkably capable little microcomputer. So expecting PS5 or SX to set a new standard for graphics in comparison to what high-end PC can output, is exceptionally unfair. Realistically, how much of the overall BoM budget is given over to the GPU ?
 

TheTechnician

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Here's your claim:

DeS has the most triangles of any game to date.

Proof? The characters in the game look rounded and the developers said that you can't even see the triangles that make up the geometry in wireframe mode.

You have

- NO proof of other games using significantly less polys
- NO visual difference between these characters and other characters in other games (i.e. GoW uses more polys for main character and we don't know what those monsters have either)
- NO verification that the game is using some advanced form of geometry cache system like Nanite

Your turn? Because that's a baseless claim just to win points.

Why you not give us your opinion an that 3-4GB/s streaming ? Btw are your complains about some branches in an unsharp background not a little petty - iam sure there is no game that does that better currently - feel free to post a screenshot that proofes me wrong.
Show me a game that looks than this :


and yeah not every m² of the Game looks like that but we have an remake here wich is not totaly free in its design- wich means of course that a 4Wall Brick Room with a mere Table and a Chair will be like that in the Remake as well.
But where they can they show us in what Direction the Gen goes.
And do me a favor - stop pretending that the PC Market is made of RTX Users... PS5 and XSX are more powerfull than for sure 95% of all gaming PC out there , right?!
 

VFXVeteran

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They never said they hit the limit of the hardware, I'm pretty sure they even expressed excitement about getting more out of it in the future.

They never said they had more power to utilize. That's being assumed here. They were excited about the SSD and the hardware in general to develop on. That's not the same as they only used 75% of the GPU power and have another 25% left to go to apply later. They hit the wall already with 4k/30FPS. Did a few more tessellation, cleaned up more shadows and boom that's all it took to go from upscaled 1440p/60FPS to native 4k/30FPS. It doesn't take much to wipe out GPU resources.. If you guys haven't learned that in just the few games that have released, then I don't know what to tell you.

As for RT, they mentioned in the interview that after a quick exploration, they decided to not go ahead with it because of development constraints, not hardware limits - other PS5 games managed to feature it, after all.

It would obviously take resources to get it done right. I'm not saying it couldn't use RT. I'm saying it couldn't be added in with NO performance penalty. I think the big disconnect I have with you guys is your tone with unlimited power for the PS5. I see the famous quote "if they did that with 1.8TFLOPS, imagine what they can do with 10TFLOPS.." only for games to NOT move at native 4k/60FPS or enabling ALL RT features at 4k/30FPS. If some of you can openly admit that the PS5 has limitations and be more realistic as to what you can expect, it would go a LONG way in having better discussions.

The notion that a launch game - one that you even claim would look pretty much the same on current gen at that - is pushing the console it was made for to its limits is absolutely ridiculous. You can't be serious.

Again, here is an example of exactly what I was talking about.

Last generation - not much changed with PBR materials (which was the highlight of that generation). The Order 1866 created a standard that couldn't be surpassed the entire generation. There was nothing left to perfect except anistropic highlighting, more than 1 shadow casting light source, a more advanced form of AO, introduction of RT, and other side projects like full procedural foliage placement like in Horizon.

Today.. TLOU2 isn't far off from The Order at all with regards to shaders and how they look. So the narrative that developers don't know how to code hardware that's pretty similar to 7yr old hardware (i.e. very similar to the PC) and can only use 50%-70% efficiency in their graphics engines as to the reason they can't punch through native 4k/60 on hardware that's barely 2080 level performance is really really ridiculous to me. I challenge you all with the question: if the PS5 is nowhere near it's limits, what do you think will be something AT it's limits? Full native 4k/60FPS with RT enabled? 4k/30FPS with ALL RT features enabled? Every game using 8k textures like in Crysis?

Look at the hardware and compare it to the most powerful hardware out and try to measure where the PS5's limits would be as far as adding MORE to the games. It's not very hard to come up with a realistic projection instead of the dreamy one you guys continuously tell yourselves only to be disappointed over and over again or you move the goal and wait for new hardware to come out mid-gen to support your narrative.
 
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TheTechnician

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...Yada Yada...

could you stop going offroad? Come back to the topic at hand - Demons Souls and how its polygon Count surpasses all other Games right now. And iam still waiting for your stance on that 3-4GB/s Datastreaming. Are you silent on that one because you know that in this Field PS5 HAS an Hardware Edge over PC right now?
 

xPikYx

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And I challenge that statement by asking with what resources? If the PS5 is already limited to 4k/30FPS with that polygon budget, where is the extra power going to come from to add more to the polygon budget and still maintain the performance envelope?
Well in the past by going ahead within the generation games get better, (let's take as example sequels within the generation, on PS2 for example there were 3 Silent Hill games and all of them were better than the prequel even if tgey were running on the same machine) so I assume they gonna be improved this generation too, even if we are just taking in consideration the PC, "control" has as a base the ps4/Xone consoles but on PC you have ray trancing, I also believe by going ahead newer and updates engine will be used to develop games and this will end in better results.
 

GaviotaGrande

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Looks good but definitely not as impressive as some of the last generation launch games like Infamous or Ryse at the time.
 
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Thedtrain

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Why you not give us your opinion an that 3-4GB/s streaming ? Btw are your complains about some branches in an unsharp background not a little petty - iam sure there is no game that does that better currently - feel free to post a screenshot that proofes me wrong.
Show me a game that looks than this :


and yeah not every m² of the Game looks like that but we have an remake here wich is not totaly free in its design- wich means of course that a 4Wall Brick Room with a mere Table and a Chair will be like that in the Remake as well.
But where they can they show us in what Direction the Gen goes.
And do me a favor - stop pretending that the PC Market is made of RTX Users... PS5 and XSX are more powerfull than for sure 95% of all gaming PC out there , right?!
have you SEEN Baulders gate 3?
 

DJ Shalad

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Dec 10, 2018
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Even the NPC in Demon´s Souls Remake have been upgraded as well.
 

VFXVeteran

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in the video from Post Nr 30 Timecode 17:00
btw VFXVeteran - whats your stance on that 3-4GB/s datastreaming?

The 3-4GB/s datastreaming. If you go back and pay close attention to these guys talking.. they are talking about the PS5 hardware in general and how it can change the way things go forward. They are not saying that their game uses 3-4G/s datastreaming. You guys are putting a feature in the game that has NOT been verified. Marcos was giving an example. The texture streaming has NO verified number.
 

TheTechnician

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No it was in context of what the guy on the left said about having the decompression done by hardware...
Now you move the Goalpost..
What Marco said was not just "an example"...
In the Road to PS5 Cerny laid out their Vision of a hundredfold I/O Throughput from the SSD to their own dedicated Hardware I/O Block.
Figures of 9Gb/s where shared, heck- even a whopping 22GB/s is possible.

Stop playing Playground Games .. PS5 has this Capabilitys and Demons Souls is the first real Game that shows it.
But wait a minute...
Now that I think of it.. are you a native English Speaker? Iam certainly not , although I know my English is sufficient.. but did YOU maybe not understand that what Marc said was meant to underline the Comments of the other Guy about how good the decompression in PS5 works?
Edit:

What you are doing right now is a defense battle . You get pushed further away but you don't realize you move towards a cliff.

Demons Souls makes use of the I/O Capabilitys of PS5..
But let's change to your timeline for a moment where Demons Souls does NOT makes any use of advanced streaming tech...

That Timeline still exists in the "PS5 hundredfold I/O Universe" ...
So in your Timeline PS5 will still eventually bring Games who do use a 9GB/s Datastream...
So why you fighting this kind of battle?
Since we are in the Timeline of a true Generational Leap with Demons Souls making use of 3-4GB of Data per Second (and you knowing it)
- what kind of gains your hoping to achieve with such an strategy of denial?
Are you hoping to "buy time" until Direct Storage is here and People with an RTX I/O Card can actually make use of a fast SSD?
Do you plan to, then, quickly change the Narrative to :,,what the PS5 can do PC can do much better"?
Ignoring or even marginalizing Sonys Advancements in I/O ?
Is thats your pathetic Strategy?

I mean , it would fit. You are known for hating on Consoles...
If something walks like a Duck and quacks like a Duck, it might be a Duck..
Right?!
 
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LucidFlux

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.They are at the PS5's limit here already. What could they add and maintain their FPS budget? Surely not RT. They already mentioned it would be too costly. IF they made it open world, they'd have to remove features as the draw distance would become a bottleneck (like most open world games). I guess they could add better approximations to their PBR shaders but I am not seeing any other added benefit. I guess they could use Nanite-like tech to get even better density of meshes.
could you stop going offroad? Come back to the topic at hand - Demons Souls and how its polygon Count surpasses all other Games right now. And iam still waiting for your stance on that 3-4GB/s Datastreaming. Are you silent on that one because you know that in this Field PS5 HAS an Hardware Edge over PC right now?

You're both missing things here.

At around the 19 min mark Peter says this "that world is chunked up into a whole lot of little pieces that we stream in and out, everything is dynamically streaming including all of our textures."

So while they are moving massive amounts of data (3-4GB/s mentioned) this is not utilizing the geometry engine or a system such as nanite to synthesize geometry on the fly but rather to up the detail and textures in the current areas and load the next just in time as you turn the corner as VFX mentioned.

This is where there will be room for improvement once systems such as nanite are in place to allow detail budgets like this in more open world games without tanking performance. With the rasterization pipeline in the engine used in DeS that would not be possible.

As far as Ray tracing goes, at the 14 min mark they mention it was not a performance issue but a time constraint, it came down to man power. They would have had to not do something else in order to still make it out by launch.
 
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VFXVeteran

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You're both missing things here.

At around the 19 min mark Peter says this "that world is chunked up into a whole lot of little pieces that we stream in and out, everything is dynamically streaming including all of our textures."

So while they are moving massive amounts of data (3-4GB/s mentioned) this is not utilizing the geometry engine or a system such as nanite to synthesize geometry on the fly but rather to up the detail and textures in the current areas and load the next just in time as you turn the corner as VFX mentioned.

This is where there will be room for improvement once systems such as nanite are in place to allow detail budgets like this in more open world games without tanking performance. With the rasterization pipeline in the engine used in DeS that would not be possible.

As far as Ray tracing goes, at the 14 min mark they mention it was not a performance issue but a time constraint, it came down to man power. They would have had to not do something else in order to still make it out by launch.

The big deal in this argument is that some guys are claiming they are moving that kind of data in DeS now. That's not true at all. There is nowhere near 3-4G/s of data even being shown with the textures there. I see several games that show much higher res textures with no requirement to put on an SSD and stream off of (Crysis Remake is an example).
 

LucidFlux

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The big deal in this argument is that some guys are claiming they are moving that kind of data in DeS now. That's not true at all. There is nowhere near 3-4G/s of data even being shown with the textures there. I see several games that show much higher res textures with no requirement to put on an SSD and stream off of (Crysis Remake is an example).

I'm not sure why you would say that when we have the information given by BP in the video to go by. They very strongly imply that they are in fact moving that much data when moving between "chunks".

John specifically asked how they leveraged the SSD, I/O decompression in DeS and how it benefits the experience. This is when Peter says "it absolutely effects the amount of data we're able to push... we can load chunks right as you load the corner, not halfway down the hallway. Which basically allows us to say we need less stuff in memory at all times so we can take the areas we're pushing and up the detail and up the textures because they can all come in on time before the player gets there."

What they don't specifically state is how big each of the chunks the world is split into is but obviously they don't dump all of the ram when moving into a new area due to shared assets, textures, etc. so we don't know exactly how much of the RAM is being dumped and then streamed in during each section transition but the SPEED at which they are loading new data is the 3-4 GB/s they mentioned.
 

Shubh_C63

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I must be the craziest person alive to say this but, I saw the gameplay for an hour on twitch (flextralife) and...I preferred the muddy graphics of older games. There is just something Grunge or Rough about it that made this dreading crawling adventure truly amazing.

I am 100% sure I will change my mind when actually seeing for myself.
 
Mar 17, 2020
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VFXVeteran can argue about tech stuff all day if he wants.

What he can't disprove though is that Demons Souls image quality is higher then any other game right now.
Please post 4K pics if you tend to argue VFXVeteran VFXVeteran . Just saying other games look the same doesn't count.
Show actual IG footage of any other game at 4K/60FPS with such an image quality.
 
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RaySoft

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They are at the PS5's limit here already. What could they add and maintain their FPS budget? Surely not RT. They already mentioned it would be too costly. IF they made it open world, they'd have to remove features as the draw distance would become a bottleneck (like most open world games). I guess they could add better approximations to their PBR shaders but I am not seeing any other added benefit. I guess they could use Nanite-like tech to get even better density of meshes.
This won't age well I'm afraid...
 

#Phonepunk#

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yeah that's as dumb a statement as i've ever seen. as if no new technology will come from the future, as if devs getting comfortable with the new tech won't contribute to the knowledge base, as if every game is going to be designed on the original code from a PS3 game...

dude, just quit with your ignorant arguments.
 
Aug 11, 2019
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IMO SotC is one of the best looking games this (last?) generation. Imagine what Blue Point will be able to pull off with a couple more years of under the hood experience. Also curious if Sony and From just give them Bloodbourne to do after this.
 

ZywyPL

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Great textures!! I'll give them that. This game has really top notch stone and ground textures. Light sources on the ground don't cast dynamic shadows.

Dunno why but you quote popped up the infamous U:DF screenshot in my head:



13 years ago with just 256Mb VRAM...


But on topic - to me DS is one of the best remasters, alongside with CoD4. MW2, THPS1+2 etc., where the devs just copied a flawless game code 1:1 and remade all the visual/audio assets, you really don't see such an effort in giving the old games a second life, most of the time it's just a resolution/framerate bump, maybe a higher texture pack, and that's really it . Although I don't see anything next-gen about it, the game could've easily be a cross-gen title and run on PS4, because really, other than improved geometry and texture details, which mind you were terrible in the original even for the already low PS3 standards, there's really nothing groundbreaking in the game that's not possible on current platforms.