Destiny's raids will not support online matchmaking with random players.

This baffles me given they already have difficulty scaling systems in place

Ezmode = matchmade, lower quality loot

Hardmode = no matchmaking, higher quality loot

Everyone sees content
 

TriniTrin

war of titties grampa
Did I miss some info where a raid required 6 people? I always thought it was 1-6 players? or was it 2-6?

Why is almost every comment I skinned saying people NEED 5 friends to play this otherwise they cant or being locked out of content?
Raids are “extremely crafted,” six-player, friends-only gauntlet runs that might best be described as gut-checks.
That seems to me like you cannot complete it without 6 players.

Also, a little off topic but some have said that a TOP MMO guild was playing this for over 12 hours and failed. That makes me wonder... Since this game is NOT a traditional MMO (if it's an MMO at all), why should we care what a top raiding guild does since there really isn't an MMO with gameplay like Destiny.

There are no FPS MMO's right? (if there is then it must not be very big)

Very little of the MMO's use anything other than toolbars with abilities that are activated for their primary powers. Even then, there are just a couple of MMO's that require active targeting (shoot head get more damage, shoot leg and affect mobility, ect.) I guess on the fact that they are highly coordinated and friends is why people give weight to their impressions but I don't know why their opinion matters other than that aspect.

Just an opinion though :D
 
All of those are risks that I, the consumer, should get to decide if I want to risk.
Maybe you're okay with taking the incredibly high risk of going into very difficult content with five random assholes that the computer picked and having a horrible time, but most people aren't. And they're not going to respond to that by not using the matchmaker and using pre-formed groups instead, they're going to respond to it by complaining to Bungie until they make the content easier, ruining it for the people who were just fine with the original difficulty.

Bungie is under an obligation to make random matchmade content doable by a random group of people with no real coordination or skill, because that's what the average group in that situation is going to be. Raids are meant to require actual coordination and skill, thus they can't allow it to be accessed by random matchmaking. It wouldn't be fair of them to add that option when it would clearly result in failure and frustration 90%+ of the time.
 
Maybe you're okay with taking the incredibly high risk of going into very difficult content with five random assholes that the computer picked and having a horrible time, but most people aren't. And they're not going to respond to that by not using the matchmaker and using pre-formed groups instead, they're going to respond to it by complaining to Bungie until they make the content easier, ruining it for the people who were just fine with the original difficulty.

Bungie is under an obligation to make random matchmade content doable by a random group of people with no real coordination or skill, because that's what the average group in that situation is going to be. Raids are meant to require actual coordination and skill, thus they can't allow it to be accessed by random matchmaking. It wouldn't be fair of them to add that option when it would clearly result in failure and frustration 90%+ of the time.
LFR says you are completely, totally wrong
 
The fact of the matter is, isolating this experience to a specific group is going create a lack of interest in raiding, and as a result little support for it. Once they see the percentage of users who partake, it will be difficult to justify creating additional raid content. Anyone who is interested in Raiding should hope that they make it more accessible so that it receives the support it deserves.
 
It wouldn't be fair of them to add that option when it would clearly result in failure and frustration 90%+ of the time.
A 90% failure rate would be the starting failure rate for randoms but it wouldn't be the ongoing failure rate. People will learn the encounters and get better gear. That knowledge would disseminate across the player base by grouping with different people through the matchmaking. The additional gear would also assist in covering for any lack of coordination. With Matchmaking an end game community could develop where the average random dude does know the encounters and what to do. Anyone who didn't could then learn from others.
 
The fact of the matter is, isolating this experience to a specific group is going create a lack of interest in raiding, and as a result little support for it. Once they see the percentage of users who partake, it will be difficult to justify creating additional raid content. Anyone who is interested in Raiding should hope that they make it more accessible so that it receives the support it deserves.
They said themselves, raids are a big risk. They know there isn't a guarantee they will be popular. They're hoping this works as planned... I mean, the things you're saying; you know they've thought these things before, right?
 
Bungie is under an obligation to make random matchmade content doable by a random group of people with no real coordination or skill, because that's what the average group in that situation is going to be. Raids are meant to require actual coordination and skill, thus they can't allow it to be accessed by random matchmaking. It wouldn't be fair of them to add that option when it would clearly result in failure and frustration 90%+ of the time.
But people will want to play the content whether they have 5 dedicated friends on their friend list or not, so what we'll end up seeing is every high level character in the Tower randomly inviting, friend requesting and cancelling on each other in hopes of eventually forming a party of like minded individuals that meet the requirements. With Destiny's limited social tools this sounds like an exercise in frustration, both for those trying to raid and those that just want to be left alone. Admirable in concept, likely a trainwreck in practice.
 
Just like the chat situation, there should be the option to play with randoms. I'm sure there's a reason they want you only playing with friends that we don't know about yet, but they shouldn't have mentioned it without explaining their reasoning. Of course people aren't going to be happy about this; not everyone has a neogaf clan to play with.
 
They said themselves, raids are a big risk. They know there isn't a guarantee they will be popular. They're hoping this works as planned... I mean, the things you're saying; you know they've thought these things before, right?
Yeah, and Im sure there is dissension amongst bungie as to wether or not its a good idea, I guess I just know where I stand on the argument.
 
Bungie should include matchmaking. Doing so would not hurt anything.
I mean, that's the only reason why they wouldn't right? A game like Destiny is a monstrous collaborative work, and it's not impossible for things to be overlooked, or to turn out badly, but I seriously doubt that withholding matchmaking for a particular part of a game whose very nature IS matchmaking is not a decision being made hastily, lightly, and without serious thought, research and testing.

Do you think they should release something that will result in poor player experiences a majority of the time? Don't you see how that could hurt something?

Just like the chat situation, there should be the option to play with randoms. I'm sure there's a reason they want you only playing with friends that we don't know about yet, but they shouldn't have mentioned it without explaining their reasoning. Of course people aren't going to be happy about this; not everyone has a neogaf clan to play with.
There is an option: grab 5 other people from the wild, the tower, a strike, or the crucible. It's completely possible from within the game itself, even if they don't recommend approaching the raid in this way.
 
Problems running with randoms

-no communication
-not knowing how long they're committed to stay online for
-not listening to directions of people who have been in there before, people with experience
-risk of people dropping out after the first wipe
-risk of inviting a troll just to make people's lives miserable
-risk of Leroy Jenkins
-risk of people not taking it as serious as you


I'm all for no matchmaking, this is why we have the destinygaf clan

Its a small portion of the game yet here people are with their torches and pitchforks again.

Honestly - reading through this list is actually a testament as to why Raids of this caliber should NEVER BE MADE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

The amount of dedication and free time required for a Raid of the magnitude that Bungie has been teasing is simply NOT A GOOD IDEA TO HAVE IN THE FIRST PLACE!

They need to tone down whatever idea they have for a huge, time-sinky raid and stick to the more casual, 60-minute style raids that the majority of their customers will actually experience.

Wasting developer time and salaries on content that only 5% to 10% of the customer base will even be able to attempt is wasted resources.
 
LFR is certainly more frustrating than your average dungeon finder 5-man, but it's still tuned to be doable by 25 random assholes with the absolute bare minimum level of coordination and little to no skill.
Your wild condescension aside, those 25 'random assholes' kinda enjoy the fact that they can see raid storylines to completion.

And guess what, there are more difficulty levels than LFR!

How long did lfr take... Seriously, how long did it take for them to implement that.
Not very long once they finally decided to do it.

The point is this isn't a new problem, it's an old, solved problem.

Moreover, it's a solved problem that Destiny already has the pieces to implement their own answer for - they have difficulty scaling, they have matchmaking (hell, not just matchmaking, they have really fucking good bungie matchmaking).

I mean really, do you want to experience the raid storyline on youtube or in the game?

That's what it will boil down to for some players and fans of Destiny
 
A 90% failure rate would be the starting failure rate for randoms but it wouldn't be the ongoing failure rate. People will learn the encounters and get better gear. That knowledge would disseminate across the player base by grouping with different people through the matchmaking. The additional gear would also assist in covering for any lack of coordination. With Matchmaking an end game community could develop where the average random dude does know the encounters and what to do. Anyone who didn't could then learn from others.
You could be wearing all the best gear, your random friend can be wearing the best gear, but if he is going to leave after first wipe or the slightest sign of difficulty, then you.. Just wasted your time. . Its not just shooting enemies, there will be mechanics

"ok we need you over there"

Meanwhile he is afk because he decided to go do something, probably hit 'start' before walking away from the game. They could put in match making for the first raid, once the second raid comes out. . Deal? . Good
 
How long did lfr take... Seriously, how long did it take for them to implement that.
Started up around the time of WOTLK, when their subs peaked and started dropping, if I recall. People were hitting the "raiding wall" faster than expected and nobody had anything to do but level up alts.

All of a sudden, Raids and Dungeons became a whole lot easier.

Then, they added matchmaking tools and they've been there ever since.


Now, anyone can raid and you're team will be successful so long as at least half of them know what the heck to do.
 
Problems running with randoms

-no communication
-not knowing how long they're committed to stay online for
-not listening to directions of people who have been in there before, people with experience
-risk of people dropping out after the first wipe
-risk of inviting a troll just to make people's lives miserable
-risk of Leroy Jenkins
-risk of people not taking it as serious as you
Most of this can occur with a clan too. And if people get kicked from the clan for not being serious enough, or by not following commands to the letter, there will be no shortage of drama either.
 
Honestly - reading through this list is actually a testament as to why Raids of this caliber should NEVER BE MADE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

The amount of dedication and free time required for a Raid of the magnitude that Bungie has been teasing is simply NOT A GOOD IDEA TO HAVE IN THE FIRST PLACE!

They need to tone down whatever idea they have for a huge, time-sinky raid and stick to the more casual, 60-minute style raids that the majority of their customers will actually experience.

Wasting developer time and salaries on content that only 5% to 10% of the customer base will even be able to attempt is wasted resources.
It seems like they are going to have the equivalent of normal/flex mode raids (ie doable by 'casuals' but not total derp mode) as well as heroic raids, going by the WoW scale. They're just not going to have the equivalent to LFR.
 
I understand everyone's frustration about the decision to not have matchmaking in a post-matchmaking world. I also understand the limitations that this places on the activity's adoption at scale.

That barrier to entry - the requirement that you get a group of people together and venture into something that is going to challenge your ability to work together (first) and your thumbs (second) - is a barrier I was willing to erect to preserve the activity goals.

Bleeding edge hardcore groups will invest some significant amount of time in figuring out the encounters and making their way through the Vault.

I fully expect groups to beat Normal mode in the first week its available.
  • This is intentional, I'd like any group that is motivated and willing to cooperate to make their way through the Raid on Normal. I've talked some about thumbskill challenge vs. investment challenge vs. cooperation challenge in some interviews, and the Normal Raid difficulty prioritizes cooperation challenge and investment challenge.

I expect Hard mode to take longer.
Once your group learns the encounters, you will be able to get through the Raid significantly faster than 3 hours.

However, the first time through, learning everything and arranging your group will take some hard-to-predict amount of time until some clan releases their strategies on YouTube.

The Vault of Glass is in many ways an activity that will build groups from the disparate people who come together to try and make their way through it. It's very much a team-building exercise.

If you're going to stream it this Fall, please feel free to let me know here. I'd love to tune in.
 
Your wild condescension aside, those 25 'random assholes' kinda enjoy the fact that they can see raid storylines to completion.

And guess what, there are more difficulty levels than LFR!



Not very long once they finally decided to do it.

The point is this isn't a new problem, it's an old, solved problem.

Moreover, it's a solved problem that Destiny already has the pieces to implement their own answer for - they have difficulty scaling, they have matchmaking (hell, not just matchmaking, they have really fucking good bungie matchmaking).

I mean really, do you want to experience the raid storyline on youtube or in the game?

That's what it will boil down to for some players and fans of Destiny
It took Warcraft years, (until deathwing) to do LFR
no one wanted randoms because it always ended in failure. . I'm going to beat these raids with destiny gaf, as should all the other people here saying they have no friends, the answer is right before your eyes
 
Just some more random thoughts -

To me raids are more about learning - figuring out what works and what doesn't work. It's not about competing for a once in a lifetime championship in a life or death game. You won't be branded a permanent failure if you didn't succeed one particular night in a raid. If you failed but learned how things work or even made some slight progression that's still a step in the right direction.

The fear of failure is what takes the fun out of raiding. Automatically assuming that a group of random people will fail anyway so don't bother even giving them tools to even try is absolutely the wrong philosophy behind this.

Open it up to matchmaking - let people take their licks and learn from it. For every 5 or 10 people who gives up and quite there will be that one person who learns from failure and applies it to a future attempt in another raid.

I'd rather take my chances being grouped with random 4 bad eggs through matchmaking if it means I met that one good player that made a legitimate effort at tackling a raid despite failing. Given the amount of people who can't put together a reliable 6 man team through their friends list there will be quite a lot of skilled players out there that just couldn't get a squad together.

Another reason why this is short sighted - turnover rate in clans from burnout, real life issue, or people simply moving on to another game is generally pretty high in raiding environments. Assuming destiny raids are so hilariously hard that only a handful of people in the entire universe can successfully do them, losing a member or two could easily cause the entire group of friends to move on to something else instead of simply recruiting someone new to the group.

Since they've already established that raid and strike mechanics differ greatly, having an introductory raid built through matchmaking can allow people to learn the fundamentals of what needs to be done in a raid.

It will be necessary to ensure a healthy pool of talent for higher raid tiers. You don't have to have waypoint markers or anything - just something that can get people at least a foot through the door.

Having an actual proper progression curve to raids, giving players LFG/Matchmaking tools and offering a wider range of players an opportunity to learn how the raids work means you're more likely to find a good, knowledgeable player in the general player pool to replace that retired group member in your former raid group.

Also assuming this is "tier 1" of destiny's raiding ladder, you are going to want an easier way to break new people into tier 2 raiding if certain friends or clan mates were to retire at the end of tier 1.

And no, simply carrying them through so they can loot legendary gear over and over again doesn't guarantee that you'll wind up with a suitable replacement that can adequately perform on the next tier on the same level as the retired one - since carrying doesn't improve communication or in game skills.

But ultimately, I suspect the reason bungie is being ultra hard line about this is that they want to gate/lock this tier of raid content away until the next tier is ready in another expansion pack. Raids traditionally functioned as a tool to keep players in the game long term until the next expansion is ready. I wouldn't be surprised if this tier of raiding somehow magically becomes easier and gains a matchmaking function just before the next tier arrives - with no matchmaking.
 

TriniTrin

war of titties grampa
Maybe you're okay with taking the incredibly high risk of going into very difficult content with five random assholes that the computer picked and having a horrible time, but most people aren't.
Maybe you're ok with only having one option, but most people aren't!

No one who has advocated against matchmaking has had a compelling reason why a choice should not be offered. The main basic reason I have heard from those people in this thread is "random people cannot work together for multiple hours on an experience that requires teamwork and communication."

While this is true sometimes, it is not everytime. And the fear of that situation should not justify the exclusion of an OPTION to play the game.

When I think about the complaints from people about not adding matchmaking, I suspect alot of people's fear comes from what happened to WoW with the Lich King Expansion (which some did mention) and the nerfing of the end game content to become too easy. This could be a concern in the future but i think that thought process it's a bit premature because an MMOFPS has not been done like this. We do not really know how content will be patched and balanced past release.

Also, we should remember that a TON of console players have never done a RAID or played an MMO. I am sure that they just want to experience the content the game offers and do not really care about grouping with random people. I am also sure they know that if they choose matchmaking, they are not guaranteed to play with people who care about the game as much as they do. And if they do care and do not want to use matchmaking, GUESS WHAT! It is just an option that is available and you can continue to play with just your friends or DGAF exclusively if you choose!

Win-Win!
 
Since this is a late game activity, I guess it makes some sense to put this barrier. Only hardcore fans will even attempt it, and if you are that hardcore, you will be willing to get a group together to try it out.

It does seem counter-intuitive to at least let people try with randoms though. Not that big of deal though.
 
Interesting because I thought strikes were the raids.

Still inexcusable IMO. You put matchmaking in your shit or else you create more hassle for me. If a rando drops that's my problem. I'm not gonna rely on my "friends" to play a game mode. I want to play it when I want to play it. This is the first item of news about this game I've read that has really given me pause.
 
If the game has an in game chat or location/room for those looking for raids than I am fine with this. This isn't much different than matchmaking, but at least have an in game method to find players.

If you are expected to get 6 friends into a party and then join a raid than I am not ok with this. I've had plenty of trouble organizing people in the past just to play BF4 or join a league in sports games. I don't have the time or a schedule that allows me to do so.

If a raid takes hours scale the difficulty for 1-6 players. If you want to reward teamwork increase the rewards as the player count goes up along with the difficulty. Play better due to organized group of 6 friends = more rewards. Disorganized group of 6 randoms who barely get by (if they do make it) = less rewards. I can barely find time to commit to something like this on my own. If I could find 5 lackeys to jump up and play whenever I wanted than fine, but most people don't. I don't feel like putting in more work outside of the game just to access a part of the game and/or PS+/Gold I paid for.
Agreed. I don't even have enough friends with PS4s to fill a party. Not even to fill a 3 person fireteam. But even if I went out and bought them all PS4s, it would be difficult to coordinate all that. I have enough trouble already just seeing them. We all have jobs, girlfriends (or wives), a couple of us even live in different timezones. It's not going to happen easily.

So I'm supposed to go online and find randoms to add to my friends list? How is that any different than matchmaking? And now how am I to coordinate the same thing with people I don't even know this time?

And the GAF clan isn't really any better than playing with randoms, is it? Membership at NeoGAF does not automatically make a person a good team player. Heck, I saw a banned member successfully enter the clan upon request. I don't know these people, they're just more randoms to me. Just more easily accessible randoms.

I've played Destiny entirely with randoms. Sometimes it's just as much of a trainwreck as you'd imagine. Sometimes it actually worked out really well. The objectives are simple enough in this game that mics are not even required as long as everyone knows that they are doing and stays on task.

Matchmaking would expedite a task that that they are simply forcing me to do myself instead, and it's 10 times harder for me to do on my own. I don't see why every area of the game doesn't have optional matchmaking. What if you only have a party of 4? Wouldn't it be nice if you could bring your party into the raid and have a couple of randoms fill the empty spots? I'd gladly be one of those randoms backing your party up.

And I don't see how matchmaking would prevent parties from doing them together anyway. That would still be entirely possible. No one would have to play with randoms if they didn't want to. Those of you talking about how terrible randoms are, you'd never have to deal with them. Just party up and go in together. So why care about removing a feature you don't intend to use?

I made two friends while playing the beta. Two people that were just such good teammates that I had to send them a friend request (well, one of them sent me one). But if they're not online, I'm screwed (and one of them is almost never online). If only Destiny had some actual in-game clan functionality rather than the barebones facade they have now. That would make this a lot easier.

Guess I've got to start coordinating with DestinyGAF. Probably some very nice people in there. I'll be able to scrape by when Destiny comes around, but I wish I didn't have to. I tend to play at strange times due to my schedule.

One of the problems here is that Destiny currently has no way to meet people and organically form up a group in the game. There isn't a way to hangout in Ironforge saying "LFG Stratholme Baron". You can run around the Tower and randomly invite people just to see if they'd maybe be interested in raiding with you for the next 4 hours, but that is a really poor method, especially when you consider the population limits in an individual Tower instance. So if they aren't going to have any sort of social infrastructure in the game it'd probably be preferable to at least let you hop into raids with people where you can maybe befriend the good players you get matched up with.
Yes please! Give me a good in-game way to quickly get a group together if not matchmaking. An in-game roster of online Clan members, for instance. Or a simple waiting area for the raid.

This whole thing makes no sense. So essentially, if you have no friends to raid with, you're meant to go around and find 5 strangers online willing to raid with you? How is that different from meeting five strangers via the matchmaking function? You'll just be doing the process manually instead of the game doing it for you. What a waste of time.
:(
 
Problems running with randoms

-no communication
-not knowing how long they're committed to stay online for
-not listening to directions of people who have been in there before, people with experience
-risk of people dropping out after the first wipe
-risk of inviting a troll just to make people's lives miserable
-risk of Leroy Jenkins
-risk of people not taking it as serious as you


I'm all for no matchmaking, this is why we have the destinygaf clan

Its a small portion of the game yet here people are with their torches and pitchforks again.
All those risks exist when you enter pvp or strikes solo.

WoW's and other MMOs random matching for raids have been wildly successfully and allows people to see/complete content they would not be experiencing at all otherwise.

Your position is completely selfish and makes no real sense. No one would be forcing you to use it.
 
Your wild condescension aside, those 25 'random assholes' kinda enjoy the fact that they can see raid storylines to completion.

And guess what, there are more difficulty levels than LFR!
LFR is full of idiots and assholes though, saying that is not really condescension as much as fact for anyone that's ever done LFR.

1 or 2 wipes normally causes people to begin yelling insults at each other, leaving because "you guys fucking sucks, shit dps, healers are shit, tanks have shit gear fuck this" etc etc. Not to mention a lot of the people in LFR have absolutely no fucking idea about anything in the raid.

People just do it because it requires no planning, no effort, no attention. And the rewards for doing LFR is crazy good compared to the time and effort needed to do LFR. They certainly don't do it because they enjoy spending 1-2 hours in the company of people acting like idiots.
 
All those risks exist when you enter pvp or strikes solo.

WoW's and other MMOs random matching for raids have been wildly successfully and allows people to see/complete content they would not be experiencing at all otherwise.

Your position is completely selfish and makes no real sense. No one would be forcing you to use it.
Neither a strike nor a PvP match requires a time commitment upwards of several hours.
 
This whole thing makes no sense. So essentially, if you have no friends to raid with, you're meant to go around and find 5 strangers online willing to raid with you? How is that different from meeting five strangers via the matchmaking function? You'll just be doing the process manually instead of the game doing it for you. What a waste of time.