I'm glad Bungie isn't compromising the content for the lowest common denominator.
Although I wouldn't take it that far, it's nice to see a dev have enough confidence in their vision for a game to go through with the risks this creates.
I'm glad Bungie isn't compromising the content for the lowest common denominator.
What an ignorant statement. If you were actually reading the comments in here, you'd clearly see that quite a few folks with lots of experience with raiding in MMOs (including myself) see the lack of matchmaking as ridiculous in a game that already lacks every single social feature of an MMO. Hell, it lacks most social features of FPS games of the last decade and is trying to be passed off as a social experience while being completely anti-social.
Listen, if the tools for communication were available within the game then I'd agree that matchmaking wouldn't really be an issue. However, if Bungie was going to do one or the other, what do you think it would be? Would they completely restructure and add more social features to the toolset, or would they just enable the already existing matchmaking system to also work for raids? People are just being realistic here. They have a much better chance of getting matchmaking than the full social suite.
I understand what you're saying...and that's why I said originally that I applaud their stance...however I think they could save themselves a whole bunch of headache by just putting match making in for launch...
There are ZERO negatives to having match making as an option...those that have fireteams of 6 already...will just simply by pass the need and jump right in...
I'd even be ok if they put SOME restrictions on the matchmaking..
- require groups of at least 2 (3?) To begin the match making process so that you're not dealing with COMPLETE randoms?..
6 is just too many for the average group of gaming friends to come up with on a consistent basis...especially for the length of time that these things apparently take..
Spoken like a true newcomer to this type of content.
spoken like a complete asshat...
please...i IMPLORE you to give me a single reason how including matchmaking would take away from YOUR experience?
If it's as hard as Bungie claims it is, the same mechanics apply. Sorry.and this isnt WoW....no matter how much you want to pretend it is...
again, nobody asking for them to change their design...
but really should my group of friends not be able to play because there is only 4 of us that have PS4's and Destiny? thats bullshit...period...
It has nothing to do with that. The content was made for communication/ cooperation to the point of MM being utterly useless.
Answer this; Tell me the difference between not making it even into the Vault vs not doing the Raid at all.
It Urk and his pre-made team 45 minutes(IIRC) to get into the Vault. You're telling me people are going to be fine wasting 1.5-2 whole hours w/o even making it into a Vault?
It has nothing to do with that. The content was made for communication/ cooperation to the point that of MM being utterly useless.
Answer this; Tell me the difference between not making it even into the Vault vs not doing the Raid at all.
It Urk and his pre-made team 45 minutes(IIRC) to get into the Vault. You're telling me people are going to be fine wasting 1.5-2 whole hours w/o even making it into a Vault?
If a developer thinks they can create an awesome experience that depends on there being 6 well prepared, well rehearsed with several hours on their hands, I'd like for them to be able to explore that without compromise.
It's their vision -- let them realize it.
Also most of you forget to realize the Raid aspect will take awhile to crack
I mean there will be a few level 20's running around quickly, but then they have to gear up for said Raid
Matchmaking will almost be a shortcut for others to be carried through tough content
If the community wants matchmaking real bad, then Bungie damn well sure put up certain gates, some restrictions of people joining in just cause
You better have 2 exotics equipped and Light level 100+ to be even remotely ready for it
They are taking the MMO raid element and trying to see how the FPS community will adjust, most of you asking for MM are diluting it
We still don't know how a goddamn Raid goes, but with Strikes I've played with randoms has shown me this community want to do big numbers, fuck teamwork/communication, they just want their drops, if too hard quit
No wonder people keep associating Destiny with Borderlands, it was the same goddamn thing there, but at least the game adjusted to how many players were in the game
If Destiny Raid is really trying to steal the MMO genre end game and mold it into it's IP, lets see how it goes
I mean FFXIV has weekly lockouts, RNG loot, weekly caps, reset timer is when everything starts a new
For a lot of players saying they don't have many friends or the time to even play hardcore, how are you going to even Raid?
They'll probably be too busy wasting 1.5-2 hours just looking for 5 other people to play with just to even starting the raid.
People who want options added in to the game in addition to those already in the game are not asking to be the only ones catered to, no.
6 is just too many for the average group of gaming friends to come up with on a consistent basis...especially for the length of time that these things apparently take..
how does including MM take away from that?...it doesnt at all...if you have a pre-made fireteam of 6 that you have meticulously created through CIA level background checks and DNA samples to insure youre all bone marrow matches...you go on and enjoy the content exactly as you describe it...skipping the matchmaking process altogether...
but for the rest of us peasants we have an opportunity to give it a go even if my friends kid got sick and he had to bail from the fireteam...
I'm sure its going to be that hard to find people on a site where we had to OTs for a Beta in a week.
spoken like a complete asshat...
please...i IMPLORE you to give me a single reason how including matchmaking would take away from YOUR experience?
Maybe the raid content isn't intended for the average group of gaming friends. That's fine. Neither are a lot of other gaming experiences in other games. If everything catered to the lowest common denominator, we'd have even less diversity in the types of games available. WoW and other MMOs had content only viable for 40+ people. Not everybody was able to take advantage of that, including me (I don't have the time to dedicated to that sort of thing), but I never once demanded they cater everything to me because I don't have entitled gamer syndrome.
Never said it would so it seems you're stretching there with that strawman. My point is that it isn't exactly tough to get 6 people together on a consistent basis for an online game. To suggest that it would be mighty uncommon says to me that you've never raided serious content in an MMO before. It isn't uncommon provided there's methods within the game or without to develop and support a guild or clan. Interestingly, Bungie has provided this, and on a device that we all carry around every day.
I used to raid with 10 other people on a consistent basis for years. Even gathering 25 folks together was no sweat. If you don't have the group or the time to devote to this, then raiding isn't for you. If you think adding matchmaking will fix that then you've completely misunderstood what this type of content is like.
It has nothing to do with that. The content was made for communication/ cooperation to the point of MM being utterly useless.
Answer this; Tell me the difference between not making it even into the Vault vs not doing the Raid at all.
It Urk and his pre-made team 45 minutes(IIRC) to get into the Vault. You're telling me people are going to be fine wasting 1.5-2 whole hours w/o even making it into a Vault?
I don't think that people are understanding this very salient point. Reaching the level cap for regular leveling in no way means that anyone is ready to raid. There is an entire game dedicated to how anyone would want to play and various play styles. And then there is the hardest of the hardcore of GROUP activity that by its very definition would separate those that want it the most, from those that don't. The only prerequisite is that players are prepared, and preparation requires working out social issues (being comfortable enough to communicate, handling your assignments) so that everyone is useful, and not a detriment to the teams goals.
And anyone that is saying that if it's set up to be this obtuse, then it's a failure really are missing the point. PvP is going to be for some, not all. There undoubtedly will be play lists that are essentially group interaction critical. And there will be clans that mop the floor with everyone else, and the randoms aren't going to like it. But the content isn't locked for anyone. it's just better for all if there is player initiated organization.
The goal by my estimation is to gather those that are willing run the gambit. There is a persistence beyond just hopping in and shooting shit for a while that needs to be bridged it seems.
Maybe the raid content isn't intended for the average group of gaming friends. That's fine. Neither are a lot of other gaming experiences in other games. If everything catered to the lowest common denominator, we'd have even less diversity in the types of games available. WoW and other MMOs had content only viable for 40+ people (I don't think you understand the kind of teamwork and coordination required for these things -- it's on a different level than console stuff). Not everybody was able to take advantage of that, including me (I don't have the time to dedicated to that sort of thing), but I never once demanded they cater everything to me because I don't have entitled gamer syndrome.
.
ironically if those games you're referencing would have had MM you would have been able to take part in those raids without having to go through the hassle of manually doing it your self.
hmmm.
ironically if those games you're referencing would have had MM you would have been able to take part in those raids without having to go through the hassle of manually doing it your self.
hmmm.
I can see the elitist stinkwaves rising off of the topic, so I'll see my way out now. As someone who's been a serious raider for well over a decade across several MMOs, I find it revolting to seeing that kind of attitude already in this game and it's not even out yet. Can't even stick your necks out for the little guy. Gotta be all about you.
From the videos/info for Raids released it truly is END GAME content
There's so much you'll have to do before to reach this point, it will be awhile till people give it that "ol' college try"
Hitting 20 just doesn't finish your game, it's considered a milestone, but it's just that
You are almost hit with a reset button now, cause you have to up your stats to certain thresholds to even be able to deal with the content
Matchmaking is in place till you hit level 28, you have to do the higher tier strikes to even get loot and then re-farm said strikes to become formidable for the next tier
By that time, if you can't scurry up 5 other people that you have been adventures on with, then the Raid unfortunately will be your downfall
Matchmaking is there for every other mode, they want the Raid to be a special content, where you have to go out of your way to become a static of 6
If you can grind your ass to reach Raid level status, then you should have a plethora of like-minded individuals you can group up with to conquer said content
I wouldn't be surprised down the line, when other Raids kick in or added, the original gets pushed into Matchmaking and adjusted for said players
At the moment they are borrowing the element from MMO Raids and asking you to go find 5 other people you can trust and try to win
You guys are seriously ignorant of what traditional raids required. WoW, the most popular MMO with millions of people playing -- a new raid would come out and it'd take the top guilds weeks before they could beat it. The top guilds -- people who play the game like 8+ hours a day. Like, they treat that game like a job. The amount of teamwork it required, the amount of preparation and rehearsal -- it's on a totally different level.
In my WoW days we filled the rest of the group in the most casual manner. The first ranged DPS with decent gear got in (if we needed rDPS). We didn't do it because we wanted to meet the player and know his strategy, we did it just because we needed to. If we had the chance I'm sure we'd opt for an automatic system. "Please oh please computer fill these 2 slots with ranged DPS of at least X item level, I don't want to bother spamming the chat"
And we were dedicated and taking raiding seriously, but even with a medium sized guild there are off days. 1 or 2 guys missing. That'll happen in Destiny too, and it's more annoying because we have to do all of that out of the game.
Both of which can be easily done with an automatic system called matchmaking. Good players play with good players (after a few runs the game would know where you fit in the bad/good spectrum). And there would be no need to check 5 different achievement lists when the game can do that for you.
1) Matchmaking - Huge pool of players, worldwide. Searches based on your competence (things like your gear, performance on previous runs, etc) and preferences (such as mic-on only, regional only, etc).
Am I the only one thinking long term? Are you guys happy that you'll need to repeat this process of not only searching for 5 other players, but good ones, over and over again? Adding and removing friends, making chat rooms out of the game, and so on...
It's easy for a youtube personality, or someone engraved in a community like Gaf to get people (I think that's why most of you guys don't care for MM, because you already have a reserved raiding seat, so why would you care?). But not everyone who likes this end-game stuff participates in forums. I like to lurk/read, and only occasionaly participate, where is my luck now? I'll have to get to know people in the bungie forums, DestinyGaf, a subreddit or even /vg/ to get a temporary raiding group. All of that because there isn't a MM option.
Why? Math is quick for computers. Just grab your total gear score (say you have 500 of Armor + dis/str/int) and look for players in a 40 gear range, so 480 to 520. It's simple but effective. And since bungie records a lot of stats it could also take into account some sort of "raid KDA" or "score to deaths" or "score per minute".
Ex: You might only have 480 "gear score", but since you play so well in raids you can get up to the 540 range and play with better geared players. (and vice versa, you can have good gear but play like shit so you would rank slightly lower)
Also new players wouldn't be left behind. There are always new players so they would get grouped with them.... Know how new players would be left behind? With no MM. In 8 months if I started playing It'd be hard to find a 8 month-old raiding group willing to play with be regularly.
Yes that is a good advantage but you won't have the patience to do that (5x each time) on your 34th run, now will you? It becomes more of a process as time goes on and you'll want to get over it quickly.
It's all fine and dandy for the first few runs, to meet new people and actually ask them to add you and whatnot, here "forum hunting" is better imo. But in the farming phase (when you completed the raid more times than you care to remember) you just want to get it done, that's where matchmaking helps.
good point.
I forgot all 10 million people that buy Destiny are on Neogaf.
ironically if those games you're referencing would have had MM you would have been able to take part in those raids without having to go through the hassle of manually doing it your self.
hmmm.
We have no physical evidence to go off of that would suggest raids will be a formidable.You also would have promptly failed miserably because the content was always tuned for coordination and the entire system urged player's to be accountable to each other for their performance. None of that exists with MM.
Hmm.
You are so off base here that I think you're intentionally misrepresenting this discussion to try and make a point. It had nothing to do with elitism. MM solved the problem of casual gamers being unable to experience high end content in WoW but in so doing it fundamentally altered the raiding community in a way that is overwhelming considered to have been very bad. Is it too much for people to see how these examples went and hope history doesn't repeat here?
We have no physical evidence to go off of that would suggest raids will be a formidable.
its just a ridiculous mindset: "Let's never try something because it is deemed too hard by someone else."
#murica
Yeah, it's never a good idea to open up content to the other 95% of your player base. Should have stuck to no raid matchmaking so those precious elitist can see cool content while everyone else gets to read about it and watch it on youtube.
Further than that.. lack of matchmaking =/= not trying something. It just means that people don't get automatically matched up to other random people. Bungie wants you to reach out and make connections and play with other people. Learn each other's playstyles. Coordinate your builds. Help each other gear up and then try to tackle the Raid.
You are so off base here that I think you're intentionally misrepresenting this discussion to try and make a point. It had nothing to do with elitism. MM solved the problem of casual gamers being unable to experience high end content in WoW but in so doing it fundamentally altered the raiding community in a way that is overwhelming considered to have been very bad. Is it too much for people to see how these examples went and hope history doesn't repeat here?
You also would have promptly failed miserably because the content was always tuned for coordination and the entire system urged player's to be accountable to each other for their performance. None of that exists with MM.
Hmm.
Yeah, it's never a good idea to open up content to the other 95% of your player base. Should have stuck to no raid matchmaking so those precious elitist can see cool content while everyone else gets to read about it and watch it on youtube.
We have no physical evidence to go off of that would suggest raids will be a formidable.
its just a ridiculous mindset: "Let's never try something because it is deemed too hard by someone else."
#murica
You know that even before matchmaking was officially added to WoW, people were still doing random pickup raids...and actually beating the content, right?
I mean holy shit, you realize people CAN STILL COMMUNICATE without being a preset raid, right? I just checked both my PS4 and Xbox One and they BOTH have headsets! Imagine if people...oh shit, I dunno...talked to each other on them?
Then they could actually coordinate, but that's obviously impossible unless they have a raid set up in advance. Hell, people might even be motivated to try and finish the raid to get loot...though clearly that sort of base instinct doesn't exist in the more noble 'organized' raiders.
NOTHING IS FUCKING STOPPING YOU FROM DOING THE GODDAMN FUCKING CONTENT
Get 5 people together and go do it
Holy shit, this defeatist attitude of welp I won't be enjoying/doing it, I mean come the fuck on
95%? So your telling me, if Destiny sells 10 million copies, roughly 9.5 million players wont take the goddamn initiative after reaching the threshold to do said Raid, because there is no goddamn matchmaking?
you dont even have to go that far...IF the raiding is as hard as Bungie, or some of the people in this thread want everyone to believe...then IT DOESNT MATTER!...because on the elite of the elite will be successful anyway...
the way its been described to me in this thread is, if i have a group of 4 (including myself) and we pick up a group of 2...or 2 randoms...through MM...then we have ABSOLUTELY no shot of completing the raid, or being even remotely successful...
so their precious elite loot is still protected by the difficulty of the raid, wether MM exists or not...
Have you played any new recent MMO's lately
A lot of stuff is always fractured and catered to different type of players
You know that even before matchmaking was officially added to WoW, people were still doing random pickup raids...and actually beating the content, right?
I mean holy shit, you realize people CAN STILL COMMUNICATE without being a preset raid, right? I just checked both my PS4 and Xbox One and they BOTH have headsets! Imagine if people...oh shit, I dunno...talked to each other on them?
Then they could actually coordinate, but that's obviously impossible unless they have a raid set up in advance. Hell, people might even be motivated to try and finish the raid to get loot...though clearly that sort of base instinct doesn't exist in the more noble 'organized' raiders.
No, that's not what everyone has been saying. People have been saying that it takes coordination and teamwork. Something that is far less likely to occur when a group is matchmade.
The Raid will be at the height of it's difficulty at launch. Over time, people will figure it out and spread the strategies online. This will lead to more people clearing it. However, even with all that knowledge readily available, people will fail. This liklihood is significantly higher in matchmade groups.
The problem with this is that when people fail they don't acknowledge their own shortcomings but instead blame others. This leads to echo chamber complaints about how bad the game is which in turn hurts the game and possibly the devs reputation. I've pointed this out numerous times in the thread.
I guess you just pointed out a couple solutions for those wanting matchmaking but who know it won't happen at launch. See? You don't need it. You can just put groups together the old fashioned way.
so much so, that they made it impossible to talk to the other people in the game unless they are ALREADY in your fireteam....
woops!
You know that even before matchmaking was officially added to WoW, people were still doing random pickup raids...and actually beating the content, right?
I mean holy shit, you realize people CAN STILL COMMUNICATE without being a preset raid, right? I just checked both my PS4 and Xbox One and they BOTH have headsets! Imagine if people...oh shit, I dunno...talked to each other on them?
Then they could actually coordinate, but that's obviously impossible unless they have a raid set up in advance. Hell, people might even be motivated to try and finish the raid to get loot...though clearly that sort of base instinct doesn't exist in the more noble 'organized' raiders.
Clearly people won't complain that they might not be able to do those raids at all. People who play at different times than their friends, for example.
I mean why would they want to try it in a matchmaking-style raid...they might fail! Clearly better to simply be locked out of doing that content at all, unless they can do their own matchmaking by approaching random people in the hub and sending them messages, or using an outside forum like GAF to try and get together. Way, way better than simply being randomly tossed together with people by some in-game system.
If it was quick, easy and a positive experience to do so, people would do so.Get 5 people together and go do it
NOTHING IS FUCKING STOPPING YOU FROM DOING THE GODDAMN FUCKING CONTENT
Get 5 people together and go do it
Holy shit, this defeatist attitude of welp I won't be enjoying/doing it, I mean come the fuck on
95%? So your telling me, if Destiny sells 10 million copies, roughly 9.5 million players wont take the goddamn initiative after reaching the threshold to do said Raid, because there is no goddamn matchmaking?
and nobody is arguing against that...but having MM as an option at least gives people the opportunity to PLAY the game they PAID for...No, that's not what everyone has been saying. People have been saying that it takes coordination and teamwork. Something that is far less likely to occur when a group is matchmade.
The Raid will be at the height of it's difficulty at launch. Over time, people will figure it out and spread the strategies online. This will lead to more people clearing it. However, even with all that knowledge readily available, people will fail. This liklihood is significantly higher in matchmade groups.
to play devil's advocate, would it hurt their reputation more than people who will inevitably complain that they are being blocked from participating in content they paid for because they dont have enough friends online?...The problem with this is that when people fail they don't acknowledge their own shortcomings but instead blame others. This leads to echo chamber complaints about how bad the game is which in turn hurts the game and possibly the devs reputation. I've pointed this out numerous times in the thread.
and nobody is arguing against that...but having MM as an option at least gives people the opportunity to PLAY the game they PAID for...
I can see the elitist stinkwaves rising off of the topic, so I'll see my way out now. As someone who's been a serious raider for well over a decade across several MMOs, I find it revolting to seeing that kind of attitude already in this game and it's not even out yet. Can't even stick your necks out for these fellas. Gotta be all about you.
You are so off base here that I think you're intentionally misrepresenting this discussion to try and make a point. It had nothing to do with elitism. MM solved the problem of casual gamers being unable to experience high end content in WoW but in so doing it fundamentally altered the raiding community in a way that is overwhelming considered to have been very bad. Is it too much for people to see how these examples went and hope history doesn't repeat here?
As someone who played WoW from Vanilla to MoP, participated in server firsts, broke through World of Logs top 10 consistently, and whatever else you can think of at that level in the game, I never felt the Raid Finder affected me or anyone else negatively. It was one of the best additions to the game. The only negative aspect of the Raid Finder was that it was an entirely separate raid lockout for Hardcore raiders who felt like they were forced into doing it for optimal gear. That wouldn't affect Destiny at all.
and nobody is arguing against that...but having MM as an option at least gives people the opportunity to PLAY the game they PAID for...
to play devil's advocate, would it hurt their reputation more than people who will inevitably complain that they are being blocked from participating in content they paid for because they dont have enough friends online?...
i think youre seriously overestimating a few things...
1. the number of people who will even be playing this game
2. the number of people from #1 that didnt buy it just to play Crucible because Bungie made Halo
3. the number of people that will ever get to a lvl high enough to contemplate taking part in a raid...
if the raids are held behind some sort of lvl/gear/abilities barrier, and the MM is properly designed...youre only dealing with the top 10% of people that bought the game in the first place...