Dev: Next Xbox Console May Not Have VR, Microsoft shows no interest in it.

Is it a good or bad thing that Microsoft is not participating in VR?


  • Total voters
    215
Jul 9, 2018
600
254
195
MR is a very niche enterprise tool, they are releasing HL v2.0 but the product is very niche and at $3,500, its not even close to being a real tool. VR is mostly a niche game device, probably the next gen hardware will make it better but its like MR, it will always be niche. Furthermore, VR is a no go as far as running from Azure unless you want people barfing all over so long-term limited future for Microsoft. I would not be surprised by HL being canned at some point - if they can't reduce the size. Since the processing is heavily done locally on HL, the cloud has less to do with it and is not impacted by Microsoft moving OS to the cloud, generally speaking.

HL can probably be used with some other devices (phones tablets, watches) as well at some point. If you are moving to cloud processing VR is not going to happen there, so all this basically makes sense to me.

If the future is cloud, VR is not a part of that future because of barfing.
You're out of your mind if you think either VR or MR is forever going to be niche as you put it. This is about as ridiculous as claiming the world only has need for 5 computers, or that the Internet will be a fad. Expect MR/VR to be just as if not more popular than smartphones. Logic says this will happen.

Also, HoloLens 2 relies more on cloud processing than it's predecessor. They want to rely more and more on the cloud as time goes on. As long as latency is sub 20 ms, then VR sickness via latency won't be an issue.
 
Last edited:
Jul 9, 2018
600
254
195
So why did they show Hololens at E3?
They jumped the gun there. HoloLens obviously has gaming appeal, but AR was years (and is still 1-2 years) away from being a consumer product. HoloLens no longer marketed itself for consumers or Xbox after a certain period, Microsoft realizing that they need to temper expectations until they can actually release it for consumers.
 
Likes: VincentMatts
May 24, 2005
321
170
1,120
forums.wuggawoo.co.uk
As someone whos bought and sold a PSVR - while the experience is great - there isn't enough meat on the bones to really justify it. Plus for it to be really viable there are lots of issues to solve around sickness, weight and development costs. I'd be keen to see all that resolved and make it central to the generation after.
 
Aug 21, 2014
5,711
54
330
They jumped the gun there. HoloLens obviously has gaming appeal, but AR was years (and is still 1-2 years) away from being a consumer product. HoloLens no longer marketed itself for consumers or Xbox after a certain period, Microsoft realizing that they need to temper expectations until they can actually release it for consumers.
Yeah i agree, and things are allowed to change.... Them announcing it at e3 doesnt set everything in stone forever. Ill never understand people that just dont understand that ideas and products can change and evolve.
 
Feb 11, 2019
749
452
185
You're out of your mind if you think either VR or MR is forever going to be niche as you put it. This is about as ridiculous as claiming the world only has need for 5 computers, or that the Internet will be a fad. Expect MR/VR to be just as if not more popular than smartphones. Logic says this will happen.

Also, HoloLens 2 relies more on cloud processing than it's predecessor. They want to rely more and more on the cloud as time goes on. As long as latency is sub 20 ms, then VR sickness via latency won't be an issue.
The visual processing of the HL is not done in the cloud, sorry, you don't understand how it works. That doesn't mean information couldn't be sent to the HL2. Please learn to slow down and read. Information can be sent put the processing of the graphics has to be done locally, in the case of HL its built in.

As far as your comment about MR/VR being some mass type devices, well, good luck... same thing they said 20 years ago. What you are saying is the same thing they were saying about web cams and than the Kinect, its a niche market. Maybe one day if they get AR down to the size of a mobile pair of sunglasses that you can walk around with you can have more of a market i.e. Google Glasses, but as far as what they have now its a niche device and market.

Logic says this will happen.
HIstory says otherwise, I bet you ask ole Zuck if he could get his $2b back for buying OR, he'll take it in in an instance, heck, my guess is he would probably let you have it for $100m.

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/11/facebook-2-billion-bet-on-oculus-not-paying-off-commentary.html

Microsoft will probably stay in HL for the time being, but won't be surprised by them canning it. VR/MR is niche at best, MR is niche of niche right now.
 
Last edited:
Dec 16, 2015
975
697
255
Michigan
I think its quite a leap to say MS has "No" interest in VR. They are funding a Halo VR experience and still R&D heavy in the mixed reality space. If it was financially viable to do VR for them, they would be in that arena in a hot minute., but VR has yet to prove itself out over the longterm save for Sony's solution. For MS right now, it's a simple risk vs. reward business decision in a niche market.
 
Jul 9, 2018
600
254
195
The visual processing of the HL is not done in the cloud, sorry, you don't understand how it works. That doesn't mean information couldn't be sent to the HL2. Please learn to slow down and read. Information can be sent put the processing of the graphics has to be done locally, in the case of HL its built in.

As far as your comment about MR/VR being some mass type devices, well, good luck... same thing they said 20 years ago. What you are saying is the same thing they were saying about web cams and than the Kinect, its a niche market. Maybe one day if they get AR down to the size of a mobile pair of sunglasses that you can walk around with you can have more of a market i.e. Google Glasses, but as far as what they have now its a niche device and market.



HIstory says otherwise, I bet you ask ole Zuck if he could get his $2b back for buying OR, he'll take it in in an instance, heck, my guess is he would probably let you have it for $100m.

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/11/facebook-2-billion-bet-on-oculus-not-paying-off-commentary.html
Did I say the visual processing was done in the cloud? I said there's more reliance on the cloud, which is true. Persistent shared connections across multiple devices, including multiple headsets and mobile devices utilizes Microsoft Azure. I advise you learn how to read before telling others to do the same.

20 years ago, hardly anyone was doing anything in MR. VR had a bubble of hype back then, but it never gained any real R&D traction. The only consumer products released at the time were from small companies that few people have even heard of. It was far too early for both VR and MR. Now, R&D / investment, and the tech itself is speeding ahead at breakneck speeds on both the MR and VR front. The rate of progress is faster than most people could imagine.

Comparing it to Webcams and Kinect shows how little you even understand about the technologies. Please, do tell me how the very few niche uses of those devices compares to the vast array of mass-
consumer usecases of MR/VR?

If you weren't so lazy and did a shred of research, you'd see that Mark knew it would take a long time to take off. He wasn't expecting 50-100 million sales until 10 years after the Rift launched. He's now updated that to a billion, because he's become even more convinced over time.
 
Last edited:
Feb 11, 2019
749
452
185
Did I say the visual processing was done in the cloud? I said there's more reliance on the cloud, which is true. Persistent shared connections across multiple devices, including multiple headsets and mobile devices utilizes Microsoft Azure. I advise you learn how to read before telling others to do the same.

20 years ago, hardly anyone was doing anything in MR. VR had a bubble of hype back then, but it never gained any real R&D traction. The only consumer products released at the time were from small companies that few people have even heard of. It was far too early for both VR and MR. Now, R&D / investment, and the tech itself is speeding ahead at breakneck speeds on both the MR and VR front. The rate of progress is faster than most people could imagine.

Comparing it to Webcams and Kinect shows how little you even understand about the technologies. Please, do tell me how the very few niche uses of those devices compares to the vast array of mass-consumer usecases of MR/VR?
Look, you are not listening.... HL is processed locally, you are fighting with yourself. Yes, information can be sent from the cloud as long as the image is processed locally than its not an issue... for VR if the goal is to process the heavy stuff (the game) in the cloud, VR is not an option.

You're not reading.

Comparing it to Webcams and Kinect shows how little you even understand about the technologies. Please, do tell me how the very few niche uses of those devices compares to the vast array of mass-consumer usecases of MR/VR?
Exactly what the Kinect users said back then when everyone told them the limitations of the device and it would fade. These are niche type devices at best, for Facebook probably $2b down the tubes. Sony has done probably pretty decent but no its a niche at best.

"You don't understand the technology, Kinect support back in 2010" LOL
 
Last edited:
Aug 17, 2018
259
270
190
We don't need another Kinect situation.

VR still needs to iron out the adjustments for visual impairement and motion sickness. It also needs some actual fully fledged games to make use of it as something that truly enhances the experience rather than a gimmick.
 
Jul 9, 2018
600
254
195
Look, you are not listening.... HL is processed locally, you are fighting with yourself. Yes, information can be sent from the cloud as long as the image is processed locally than its not an issue... for VR if the goal is to process the heavy stuff (the game) in the cloud, VR is not an option.

You're not reading.
Are you really so dense that you can't even comprehend what I'm saying in plain English? I'll say it again: Persistent connections across multiple devices utilizes Microsoft Azure. The end. Stop trying to pretend you're so smart when you're making yourself look clueless.

As for VR, it has a ways to go before you can get latency under 20 ms using cloud processing. But nothing says it's physically impossible, it's just not there yet. The render pipeline can work under these conditions with a fast enough connection.

Exactly what the Kinect users said back than when everyone told them the limitations of the device and it would fade.
The Kinect is literally a camera sensing input device. VR and MR are computing platforms, which means they have a very large set of generalized uses. Communication is a big one. It progresses as follows: Phonecalls -> Texting / Messaging -> Video Chat. The next paradigm is VR and MR, which is just as important as the rest, perhaps more so. Other big uses are telepresence, screen simulation, spatial computing and work productivity, exercise, lifestyle, shopping, assistance, education, medical use, training, robotics manipulation, architecture design, product design, entertainment and media of all types, living new lives, and lots more.
 
Last edited:
Likes: NutJobJim
Feb 11, 2019
749
452
185
Are you really so dense that you can't even comprehend what I'm saying in plain English? I'll say it again: Persistent connections across multiple devices utilizes Microsoft Azure. The end. Stop trying to pretend you're so smart when you're making yourself look clueless.

As for VR, it has a ways to go before you can get latency under 20 ms using cloud processing. But nothing says it's physically impossible, it's just not there yet. The render pipeline can work under these conditions with a fast enough connection.


The Kinect is literally a camera sensing input device. VR and MR are computing platforms, which means they have a very large set of generalized uses. Communication is a big one. It progresses as follows: Phonecalls -> Texting / Messaging -> Video Chat. The next paradigm is VR and MR, which is just as important as the rest, perhaps more so. Other big uses are telepresence, screen simulation, spatial computing and work productivity, exercise, lifestyle, shopping, assistance, education, medical use, training, robotics manipulation, architecture design, product design, entertainment and media of all types, living new lives, and lots more.
"Persistent connections", who said that wasn't possible, of course the device can have a connection to Azure SO FREAKING WHAT! Which is why Microsoft has a local device for $3,500 doing work. You need to read again. VR is a no go as far a cloud because of barfing - unless someone can fix Physics than that isn't going to change.

So, its a new paradigm but Sony and other companies have been doing VR for 20 years?

Another its the future, its great but nobody buys it guy. I run into quite a few of you guys, I mean at least the Kinect sold. Look I'm done with you if you can't show me these huge numbers, show or shutup.... they don't exist.

Usually I don't need someone to tell me everyone uses iPhones/Androids phones in mass because everywhere I go everyone has one. Don't tell me about a mass product, show me. Tell you what, you go to Facebook with some investors with $2b dollars I bet Zuck will have something to sell you within about 5 seconds.
 
Last edited:
Jul 9, 2018
600
254
195
"Persistent connections", who said that wasn't possible, of course the device can have a connection to Azure SO FREAKING WHAT! Which is why Microsoft has a local device for $3,500 doing work. You need to read again. VR is a no go as far a cloud because of barfing - unless someone can fix Physics than that isn't going to change.

So, its a new paradigm but Sony and other companies have been doing VR for 20 years?

Another its the future, its great but nobody buys it guy. I run into quite a few of you guys, I mean at least the Kinect sold. Look I'm done with you if you can't show me these huge numbers, show or shutup.... they don't exist.

Usually I don't need someone to tell me everyone uses iPhones/Androids phones in mass because everywhere I go everyone has one. Don't tell me about a mass product, show me. Tell you what, you go to Facebook with some investors with $2b dollars I bet Zuck will have something to sell you within about 5 seconds.
You keep telling me to read, and yet every time I respond correctly. No, there are no known physical limitations to say it can't be done. Again, it's a matter of connection speed. As long as we can get 20 ms or lower latency running off the cloud, it is not going to cause sickness in relation to the cloud.

Hardly anyone has been doing socialization in VR in the past 20 years. Even in today's headsets it's not nearly there for the mass-consumer, but the progress is staggering and so it might not be that long before it starts to get mass-market ready in that regard: https://www.wired.com/story/facebook-oculus-codec-avatars-vr/

"Sheikh's avatar doesn't have the beard or owlishly round glasses he wears in real life (ostensibly they're harder to get right, so he did the capture without them), but it's him. It's him so much that when he invites me to lean in and take a closer look at the stubble on his face, it feels incredibly invasive to do so. It's so much Steve Lombardi that, when he later walks into the room for real, I feel like I already know him—despite never having met him in the flesh. "

The Kinect sold because it was a) much cheaper and b) didn't need to establish a whole medium that no one knew what to expect from.

How can I show you that VR is a mass market in numbers? Stop trying to move goalposts. I'm saying there's little doubt it won't be mass market in the future based on the applications it has in store. The applications? I can show you those. I just showed you one with that link. If you don't think that (after it scales to a full body) has mass-market applications that many of us around the world can make use of, then you are hopeless.
 
Last edited:
Feb 11, 2019
749
452
185
You keep telling me to read, and yet every time I respond correctly. No, there are no known physical limitations to say it can't be done. Again, it's a matter of connection speed. As long as we can get 20 ms or lower latency running off the cloud, it is not going to cause sickness in relation to the cloud.

Hardly anyone has been doing socialization in VR in the past 20 years. Even in today's headsets it's not nearly there for the mass-consumer, but the progress is staggering and so it might not be that long before it starts to get mass-market ready in that regard: https://www.wired.com/story/facebook-oculus-codec-avatars-vr/

"Sheikh's avatar doesn't have the beard or owlishly round glasses he wears in real life (ostensibly they're harder to get right, so he did the capture without them), but it's him. It's him so much that when he invites me to lean in and take a closer look at the stubble on his face, it feels incredibly invasive to do so. It's so much Steve Lombardi that, when he later walks into the room for real, I feel like I already know him—despite never having met him in the flesh. "

The Kinect sold because it was a) much cheaper and b) didn't need to establish a whole medium that no one knew what to expect from.

How can I show you that VR is a mass market in numbers? Stop trying to move goalposts. I'm saying there's little doubt it won't be mass market in the future based on the applications it has in store. The applications? I can show you those. I just showed you one with that link. If you don't think that (after it scales to a full body) has mass-market applications that many of us around the world can make use of, then you are hopeless.
I'm done with you I gave you a chance to reread and you haven't, you're fighting with yourself.

You are like the silly cloud gaming guys, its so great but none of them have a subscription to a service, its the future but they don't even buy it. LOL

You keep telling me to read, and yet every time I respond correctly. No, there are no known physical limitations to say it can't be done. Again, it's a matter of connection speed. As long as we can get 20 ms or lower latency running off the cloud, it is not going to cause sickness in relation to the cloud.
Yes you do have limitation i.e. the Speed of Light, let's put this way, the games on PSVR have to run at 60fps so that people don't barf, this is the bare minimum and really isn't good enough i.e. sickness and barfcity. It actually has to be much higher, you need probably less then 10ms. They current hardware isn't fast enough let alone adding another 20-30ms, its barf city.

I'm going to put you on ignore because we're not getting anywhere with this, I wish you the best of luck. Its a mass appealing device but nobody is buying stance. More people cared about 3d TVs and by far more about the Kinect, nobody cares now.
 
Jul 9, 2018
600
254
195
I'm done with you I gave you a chance to reread and you haven't, you're fighting with yourself.

You are like the silly cloud gaming guys, its so great but none of them have a subscription to a service, its the future but they don't even buy it. LOL



Yes you do have limitation i.e. the Speed of Light, let's put this way, the games on PSVR have to run at 60fps so that people don't barf, this is the bare minimum and really isn't good enough i.e. sickness and barfcity. It actually has to be much higher, you need probably less then 10ms. They current hardware isn't fast enough let alone adding another 20-30ms, its barf city.

I'm going to put you on ignore because we're not getting anywhere with this, I wish you the best of luck. Its a mass appealing device but nobody is buying stance. More people cared about 3d TVs and by far more about the Kinect, nobody cares now.
There is something seriously wrong you with if you think I can't read,your posts, despite everyone here clearly being able to see my responses, in which they clearly show I directly respond in a way one would expect.

Under 20ms is fine for just about everyone. Less is always better, and getting under 10ms is totally possible. If you read this, you might actually see the process of how it works: https://medium.com/@DAQRI/motion-to-photon-latency-in-mobile-ar-and-vr-99f82c480926

As for more people caring about 3D TVs, it's almost as if it's easier to market a small 'upgrade' to their TV viewing experience than it is to market something that almost no one understands the concept of yet?
It's almost as if it takes many years for a medium to grow. Gee, I sure remember the days where the first generation of smartphones and PCs, and heck even TVs sold millions upon millions. That totally happened right out of the gate, right?

Sure, I might be on ignore now, but I'd like people to see some actual valid responses to the ramblings you spout on about.
 
Last edited:
May 24, 2005
39,858
2,725
1,320
Yeah i agree, and things are allowed to change.... Them announcing it at e3 doesnt set everything in stone forever. Ill never understand people that just dont understand that ideas and products can change and evolve.
I guess my point on this is MS actually "is" investing into VR. They just haven't managed to make a consumer product yet that they can sell. But there's no reason for us on GAF to act as if the R&D money on VR or MR isn't adding up for MS.