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Developers hear me out! Playing in English doesn't mean refusing the Metric system!

Imperfected

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Jul 17, 2013
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Most official functions of the military will use metric. The muzzle velocity of a weapon is measured in meters/second. During training, you range your weapons at 50m, 150m, 300m, 1km, etc. Kilometers and the Universal Transverse Mercator are used for map-reading and overland navigation.

At an individual level, there's still a lot of Imperial, though, in terms of things like vehicle speeds and temperatures. And at least as far as I can remember pounds are still used quite heavily even in official documentation and logistics, rather than (kilo)grams.
 

lyrick

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Well to be more precise it was a solution of water, ice, and Ammonium Chloride. Which is not really comparable with any in any normal situation. Most fresh water will freeze at 0ºC, sea water freezes at -2ºC. (Or 100ºC when Celsius was alive as the scale was in reverse)

The Fahrenheit scale, like the Celsius scale has been tweaked over the years to better fit the environments in which they're used.

My local climate (Midwestern USA) uses the entire 0 -100 F scale on a yearly basis (with lows diving slightly lower than 0 and highs breaking the 100 mark on occasion ) changing that to -18C to 38 would offer no benefit (and would simply reduce the granularity) and all the Winter enthusiasts would have to come up with a new FDD calculator before driving their cars out on the lakes.

I don't believe the costs would be so big. Perhaps with traffic signs, but nowadays everything works with computers, so just removing the conversion from C to F and from metric to imperial on electronic stuff should be piece of cake.

I know how many times my wife would burn the house down if I swapped the oven dials to Celsius from Fahrenheit (as I've considered this as an April fools day joke for years).

1 too many.
 

BRocknRolla

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Feb 7, 2013
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Might be worth wondering why a Japanese game should "translate" into imperial at all then.

I very much wonder if we'd even have this thread. This is the second, "I can't deal with the imperial system," thread I've seen, but I'm not sure I've ever seen the reverse.
 

Theonik

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So your problem is you hate change. Gotcha.
No. It is not tweaked for the environment that is the worst possible way to do anything.
It makes the system non-reprodicible. What was tweaked was that more accurate equipment allowed better measurements but the basis didn't change. It's still ammonium brine and ice, and the average human temperature. Only we know better what that means. The working scale for farenheit is wonky.

Also you continue to ignore that decimals do in fact exist.
 

lyrick

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So your problem is you hate change. Gotcha.

I could give a fuck less, personally I have to work with both systems (and buy both sets of tools).

I'm pretty sure Americans would love to see higher numbers in their speedometers and lower numbers on their scales.
 

royox

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Nov 3, 2013
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hmmm... I wonder why?

Because it's usefull when working termodinamics and chemical equilibrium but useless at any other thing as daily working in a real laboratory.

How many thermometers in Kelvin have you seen in a lab? How many lab equipment have you seen using Kelvins?

Everything is in celcius because celcius is easy, understandable, logical and can have a better control about it.
 

Theonik

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I could give a fuck less, personally I have to work with both systems (and buy both sets of tools).

I'm pretty sure Americans would love to see higher numbers in their speedometers and lower numbers on their scales.
Notice how much of US industry, military, government, and science is switching to metric. It's a much cheaper solution. It allows you to sell things to a wider market, means you streamline production. NATO coalitions are more functional with the 5.56mm round and it just makes more sense all round.

Of course change takes time especially when so much of the US is optimised around imperial, older fittings parts etc. Over time that doesn't matter though.
 

lyrick

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Also you continue to ignore that decimals do in fact exist.

TEST: adds set number decimals to both Scales,

RESULT: Granularity of Fahrenheit in normal environmental conditions remains better than that of Celsius.
 

Theonik

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TEST: adds set number decimals to both Scales,

RESULT: Granularity of Fahrenheit in normal environmental conditions remains better than that of Celsius.
By your claim Fahrenheit is 2x more granular. If you add a decimal point you are 10x more granular with Celsius. You say that for any practical purpose Fahrenheit is all you need. Why do you need more than 1dp? In fact why would you need Fahrenheit dps at all. You can have as much granularity as you need in either system. That's not an argument for or against.
 

tenderbrew

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Also not sure that the US general gov't even has the power to change the standard for anything that is not federally funded (i.e. interstates would be but not other state roads.) So the change would need to be implemented separately in each US state and some would be much more apt to eat the cost (which again provides little return) than others.

Probably why nobody has tried to tackle it.
 

lyrick

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Apr 13, 2012
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Notice how much of US industry, military, government, and science is switching to metric. It's a much cheaper solution. It allows you to sell things to a wider market, means you streamline production. NATO coalitions are more functional with the 5.56mm round and it just makes more sense all round.

Of course change takes time especially when so much of the US is optimised around imperial, older fittings parts etc. Over time that doesn't matter though.

If you want to save money and time the top priority should be the reduction of the number of number of languages spoken and read.

Take a look at any international packaging, the conversion in weight or volume isn't the biggest fish to fry.

Are you ready to tell people that removing their language would save both time and money?
 

Theonik

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If you want to save money and time the top priority should be the reduction of the number of number of languages spoken and read.

Take a look at any international packaging, the conversion in weight or volume isn't the biggest fish to fry.

Are you ready to tell people that removing their language would save both time and money?
I'm cool with it. It's happening eventually. Globalisation will kill languages. Dialects and Languages are a product of isolation. Contact leads to unification.
There is a reason why many organisations choose English as their business language. It makes things cheaper. And the French were able to effectively standardise French at gunpoint. We're not so bold now but eh.
 

BRocknRolla

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Also not sure that the US general gov't even has the power to change the standard for anything that is not federally funded (i.e. interstates would be but not other state roads.) So the change would need to be implemented separately in each US state and some would be much more apt to eat the cost (which again provides little return) than others.

Probably why nobody has tried to tackle it.

That, and I don't think it's actually bothering 99% of people. Most people is the US probably work and live with other people in the US. When it comes to business outside the US imperial vs metric is likely wholly irrelevant to whatever the business actually is, or the business converts as necessary without a lot of strain or effort. The gains just aren't huge for the vast majority of people on either side of measurement.

If you want to save money and time the top priority should be the reduction of the number of number of languages spoken and read.

It's an accurate and frightening concept. Also one that won't happen.
 

lyrick

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By your claim Fahrenheit is 2x more granular. If you add a decimal point you are 10x more granular with Celsius. You say that for any practical purpose Fahrenheit is all you need. Why do you need more than 1dp? In fact why would you need Fahrenheit dps at all. You can have as much granularity as you need in either system. That's not an argument for or against.

My argument for Fahrenheit is that it better aligns itself to the air temperature of the inhabited surface of the earth.

The freezing and boiling points of pure water is cool and all, but I don't really hang out there.
 
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The Fahrenheit scale, like the Celsius scale has been tweaked over the years to better fit the environments in which they're used.

My local climate (Midwestern USA) uses the entire 0 -100 F scale on a yearly basis (with lows diving slightly lower than 0 and highs breaking the 100 mark on occasion ) changing that to -18C to 38 would offer no benefit (and would simply reduce the granularity) and all the Winter enthusiasts would have to come up with a new FDD calculator before driving their cars out on the lakes.



I know how many times my wife would burn the house down if I swapped the oven dials to Celsius from Fahrenheit (as I've considered this as an April fools day joke for years).

1 too many.
Except many places in the states get colder than 0 F yearly and every degree is not equal.

+40 C is fucking hot and -40 is fucking cold. Hell -40 on both is the same temperature. Its an easy balanced scale based on a measurable thing.

Fahrenheit is now actually measured the same as Celsius, by its freezing point and its boiling point.
 

marmoka

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Jan 22, 2015
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The conversion wouldn't be hard to understand; that wasn't the point.

But the costs would be huge! Ever jug of milk, every can of soda, every box of cereal, every traffic sign, every gas pump... The list goes on. All of it would change. And that's just labeling. You're probably not going to just slap a label on a container of milk containing 3.785 liters of milk; you're probably going to make it a package with a more rounded number. So is all the packing going to need to be redone? The factory lines? And then we get to the psychological aspect of, "What is a liter of gas worth?"

And we could do all that. It could all happen, even if some of it would take time and great cost.

But why? What's the benefit? To the people making the change? To the world at large?

Lol dude. A milk pack already in a supermarket manufactured before the adaptation starts would maintain the same unit as before, bringing that pack to the factory just to change it does not make any sense. It would only be applied to milk boxes that are going to be manufactured once the new measurement system is on the road. Same with soda and Doritos packs.

And you really think there would be written "3.785 liters of milk"? Why not 3.78 or 3.79? And that wouldn't make people go bananas. The size of the box is the same.

Less than 20 years ago, Euro became the official money in many European countries. Everyone had to stop thinking in the monetary unit in their own country, and start thinking in euros. You could see everywhere the price in the old monetary unit and euros, until you could only use euros. Only elders still need to translate euros to the old monetary systems to have references of prices, but even people in their 60s right now can perfectl live with the new monetary unit.
The adapting process was done well. If we could survive to that, you all can change from imperial to metric.

And some labels in milk packs already have metric units there:

They just need to remove the "1 GAL" from the template they use to print the labels. It just takes one fucking minute to do it.

For traffic signs, they could write the two units so that people get used to the differences between both. Many speedometers already have metrics specified as well:
How about just changing the palette in new cars, giving priority to km/h instead of mph, and totally removing the mph from even newer cars after a couple of years?

It would probably be more expensive than I imagine, but just using common sense you can avoid the astronomic costs you are telling me.

Best of all, new generations will grow up with a measurement unit everyone in the rest of the world uses. And they wouldn't have any problems when adapting to another metric just because their country was using old and outdated units that made no sense.
 

Phu

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Jun 17, 2014
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Also not sure that the US general gov't even has the power to change the standard for anything that is not federally funded (i.e. interstates would be but not other state roads.) So the change would need to be implemented separately in each US state and some would be much more apt to eat the cost (which again provides little return) than others.

Probably why nobody has tried to tackle it.

To transition, they should just have the next cycle of new road signs have the mph listed as usual, with a smaller km/h underneath, then eventually swap them, then eventually remove the mph when you can expect it's been replaced.

I've already posted that picture of the speedometer with the dual mph and km/h since car manufacturers already assume someone's gonna drive the car across the border at some point so they'd already be on board if state/fed gov started transitioning. After that, though, there's not a whole lot left to change.

Products already list both imperial and metric and math/science based fields already use metric. Aside from weather people telling me how fast the wind is blowing I can't really think of much that wouldn't be metric at that point.
 

MDave

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May 19, 2013
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I haven't had a problem with both systems we have here in the UK but my god, I didn't know the Imperial system was that bad. Culture and a older generation refusing to let go is a reason its still survives now I guess. We won't ever start calling pints of beer anything else, and it will take a nation shattering change to switch from litres and gallons and miles per hour to a full metric system when it comes to anything to do with vehicles and transport.

And this is an ever bigger problem for the US I imagine.

But hey, the UK was full imperial and its progressed to half and half after a few centuries, UK schools teaches only metric AFAIK. So it will happen to the US eventually but at a far slower scale because of its sheer size.

The more scientists and engineers that are born, and the more that have powerful influence the better. But media will always have the most power there in influencing the culture I imagine.

Do schools in the US teach both?
 

tenderbrew

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Jan 27, 2015
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Lol dude. A milk pack already in a supermarket manufactured before the adaptation starts would maintain the same unit as before, bringing that pack to the factory just to change it does not make any sense. It would only be applied to milk boxes that are going to be manufactured once the new measurement system is on the road. Same with soda and Doritos packs.

And you really think there would be written "3.785 liters of milk"? Why not 3.78 or 3.79? And that wouldn't make people go bananas. The size of the box is the same.

Less than 20 years ago, Euro became the official money in many European countries. Everyone had to stop thinking in the monetary unit in their own country, and start thinking in euros. You could see everywhere the price in the old monetary unit and euros, until you could only use euros. Only elders still need to translate euros to the old monetary systems to have references of prices, but even people in their 60s right now can perfectl live with the new monetary unit.
The adapting process was done well. If we could survive to that, you all can change from imperial to metric.

And some labels in milk packs already have metric units there:

They just need to remove the "1 GAL" from the template they use to print the labels. It just takes one fucking minute to do it.

For traffic signs, they could write the two units so that people get used to the differences between both. Many speedometers already have metrics specified as well:

How about just changing the palette in new cars, giving priority to km/h instead of mph, and totally removing the mph from even newer cars after a couple of years?

It would probably be more expensive than I imagine, but just using common sense you can avoid the astronomic costs you are telling me.

Best of all, new generations will grow up with a measurement unit everyone in the rest of the world uses. And they wouldn't have any problems when adapting to another metric just because their country was using old and outdated units that made no sense.

Are you acting like the conversion to euro didn't have a cost associated with it? And came with perceived benefits of common currency and market.

What is the benefit of spending hundreds of millions (most likely billions) in changing mile markers, recreating road signs, passing local legislation across 50 states and numerous municipalities, etc etc etc just so finally we can feel secure in knowing the world isn't secretly poking fun.
 
May 14, 2008
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By your claim Fahrenheit is 2x more granular. If you add a decimal point you are 10x more granular with Celsius. You say that for any practical purpose Fahrenheit is all you need. Why do you need more than 1dp? In fact why would you need Fahrenheit dps at all. You can have as much granularity as you need in either system. That's not an argument for or against.
You gain 10x the granularity at the cost of an additional significant figure. That's a 50% increase in the amount of digits needed to convey information.

Weather broadcasts in metric countries quite often give temperatures in measures of either .0 or .5. What say you to the proposition that we come up with a derived temperature unit that's just Celsius x 2? That way you gain the primary benefits of the Fahrenheit scale - being able to express common Earth temperature ranges using just two significant figures where each pip is still perceptible by our human senses - while still maintaining good compatibility with SI (2 is a factor of 10 after all)
 

Wanchan

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Sep 24, 2010
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What is the benefit of spending hundreds of millions (most likely billions) in changing mile markers, recreating road signs, passing local legislation across 50 states and numerous municipalities, etc etc etc just so finally we can feel secure in knowing the world isn't secretly poking fun.

More benefits than a $13bn carrier? 8)
 

BRocknRolla

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Feb 7, 2013
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Lol dude. A milk pack already in a supermarket manufactured before the adaptation starts would maintain the same unit as before, bringing that pack to the factory just to change it does not make any sense. It would only be applied to milk boxes that are going to be manufactured once the new measurement system is on the road. Same with soda and Doritos packs.

Do you honestly think I was suggesting that? Of course this would only be for new products.

you really think there would be written "3.785 liters of milk"? Why not 3.78 or 3.79? And that wouldn't make people go bananas. The size of the box is the same.

I'm guessing here, because I don't live in a country where people use metric but I believe I recall from my travels, but I'm guessing in Europe packaging is logically done to accommodate simple numbers based on metric measures. It's an advertising psychology sort of thing. I'm betting they would want to do the same in the US. Maybe not immediately, but I'd bet eventually things would change over and packaging would change.

Less than 20 years ago, Euro became the official money in many European countries. Everyone had to stop thinking in the monetary unit in their own country, and start thinking in euros. You could see everywhere the price in the old monetary unit and euros, until you could only use euros. Only elders still need to translate euros to the old monetary systems to have references of prices, but even people in their 60s right now can perfectl live with the new monetary unit.
The adapting process was done well. If we could survive to that, you all can change from imperial to metric.

Of course people would survive, but this comparison isn't apt. Once again, what is the benefit to the majority for the conversion. In Europe, the money is now fluid, allowing simple spending between countries that frequently trade and citizens who frequently travel between these countries. That doesn't exist in the US, and the metric conversion doesn't offer that kind of universal benefit. This once again is not about whether people would "get it."

As for the rest of your comments, you can claim it wouldn't be expensive all you want. I don't believe you. The US is a very big country and these sort of things effect a great deal of your average person's life. You don't have any numbers to say otherwise, so we're going to have to agree to disagree on the cost.

As for what "makes sense," I think you'll find your typical American gets by just fine with temperature and distance regardless of how much more logical Metric might be.

Do schools in the US teach both?

Indeed they do. Your average middle school science class is going to be mainly metric. Certainly everything is metric when it comes to Chemistry.
 

lyrick

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Apr 13, 2012
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You gain 10x the granularity at the cost of an additional significant figure. That's a 50% increase in the amount of digits needed to convey information.

Weather broadcasts in metric countries quite often give temperatures in measures of either .0 or .5. What say you to the proposition that we come up with a derived temperature unit that's just Celsius x 2? That way you gain the primary benefits of the Fahrenheit scale - being able to express common Earth temperature ranges using just two significant figures where each pip is still perceptible by our human senses - while still maintaining good compatibility with SI (2 is a factor of 10 after all)

It's simply a matter of choosing the right tool for the Job, when talking air temperature (on Earth) the Fahrenheit scale aligns better to the natural occurrence than Celsius does. It's the same reason as why Blood pressure is also measured in mmHg instead of kpa or psi.
 

redmetal86

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Oct 1, 2008
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Well, it's all the British Empire's fault. They started us on the path of measurements and now their descendants stuck dealing with the monster their ancestors created.


As for games, I'm fine with it being optional. Either way, to me it's just numbers counting down or going up.
 

drotahorror

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I mean, in most games does it even matter? It's literally a word from my experience in most games that aren't racing games. A foot in a certain game is not a foot. A yard isn't a yard in another game.

For instance, 10 yards in World of Warcraft is not 30 feet at all. It's more like 10-12 feet.

Almost all racing games give an option of imperial or metric.

What's it matter what the measurement is called if it doesn't even have the same distance as it would in real life? It's just the measurement the developer came up with to use. In most games it has no meaning other than here's a general measurement to use. No, 1 mile isn't 1 mile, but we'll call it that because it's far away. In most cases, you're literally crying about a word that doesn't actually mean what it says in real life at all.
 

MDave

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Well, it's all the British Empire's fault. They started us on the path of measurements and now their descendants stuck dealing with the monster their ancestors created.


As for games, I'm fine with it being optional. Either way, to me it's just numbers counting down or going up.

We used to call our taps Faucets too, but like our changing measurements system, we don't anymore :p A few other words too I think that we invented but don't use anymore hah!
 

Theonik

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You gain 10x the granularity at the cost of an additional significant figure. That's a 50% increase in the amount of digits needed to convey information.

Weather broadcasts in metric countries quite often give temperatures in measures of either .0 or .5. What say you to the proposition that we come up with a derived temperature unit that's just Celsius x 2? That way you gain the primary benefits of the Fahrenheit scale - being able to express common Earth temperature ranges using just two significant figures where each pip is still perceptible by our human senses - while still maintaining good compatibility with SI (2 is a factor of 10 after all)
That doesn't make much sense. First of all the decimal is not really costly. As a measure. Second of all you want just one system globally if you can help it. Adding one just for weather is needless expenditure.
 

BRocknRolla

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We used to call our taps Faucets too, but like our changing measurements system, we don't anymore :p A few other words too I think that we invented but don't use anymore hah!

My wife had been watching Love Island lately and it always reminds me that the "English Language" means very different things in different parts of the world.
 
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That doesn't make much sense. First of all the decimal is not really costly. As a measure. Second of all you want just one system globally if you can help it. Adding one just for weather is needless expenditure.
In metric-using countries, temperature is already measured in at least two units (Kelvin and Celsius), pressure is measured in at least three (Pascal, torr, atm), energy has at least two units (Joule, calorie, electron-volt if you are me), I could go on.

The benefits of the Fahrenheit system have been explained clearly in this thread. If you think those are just "needless expenditure", I have a feeling you only actually like metric for subjective, emotional reasons.
 

fspm

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The US left Paris climate agreement because Trump doesn't know for shit how much of a change 1c is for global temperature. '1f is insignificant, 1c should be insignificant too. Smart.'
Have fun with the floods, enjoy the scorching sun and the glorious imperial system.
 

Theonik

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In metric-using countries, temperature is already measured in at least two units (Kelvin and Celsius), pressure is measured in at least three (Pascal, torr, atm), energy has at least two units (Joule, calorie, electron-volt if you are me), I could go on.

The benefits of the Fahrenheit system have been explained clearly in this thread. If you think those are just "needless expenditure", I have a feeling you only actually like metric for subjective, emotional reasons.
The point of standardising is to eliminate conversions where needed only one is used in any place.
 
May 14, 2008
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The point of standardising is to eliminate conversions where needed only one is used in any place.
You can't eliminate conversions, only reduce the number of them. My life as an electrical engineer would be so much fucking easier if we used the CGS system instead of SI. I'd much rather work with derived units like angstrom and micron for length or electron-volt for energy. Because those units actually matter for me instead of giant metrics like meter or joule.
 

Keihart

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But we use arabic numbers , that's the main reason to use base 10 on most things.

edit: I mean, why would i even attempt to use hexadecimal or binari notation if i'm still reading the same 10 digits or adding letters to make them work, is just not practical unless you are trying to work around a limitation of a system.

To the post above me, who uses meters and joules on Electric Engineering tho? almost everything already is in units that make sense but are often defined on the SI.
 

lyrick

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But we use arabic numbers , that's the main reason to use base 10 on most things.

edit: I mean, why would i even attempt to use hexadecimal or binari notation if i'm still reading the same 10 digits or adding letters to make them work, is just not practical unless you are trying to work around a limitation of a system.

To the post above me, who uses meters and joules on Electric Engineering tho? almost everything already is in units that make sense but are often defined on the SI.

Because ten is arbitrary as fuck. We may as well just use 8.
 

AlexFlame116

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May 11, 2016
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Eat your hamburgers and jelly-filled donut Apollo.

No but in all seriousness it must be difficult having to use a different system when you're accustomed to another one but there is no way to change it in the options.