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DF: All Developers Extremely Happy With PS5 Development But Not All Are Happy With XSX Development

geordiemp

Member
What was actually said: Some devs I've spoken to are happy with the new Xbox development environment, others aren't as happy because it's different from current gen environment.

What Sony fans think was said: PS5 is universally easier to develop for, will be the primary console with Xbox getting ports and Microsoft are going to exit the video game market and sell off their IPs to Sony at which point I'll pretend I always liked them.

Read it for eactly what was said

There is simply no doubt that the XSX on paper, the more powerful machine. However again, speaking to developers the development environment they are dealing with some people seem to be extremely happy with it, other people are having problems with it because they've moved away from what was previously the XDK which was specific for the Xbox to the GDK which is a more general environment for PC and for Xbox and even Xbox one is encompassed by the GDK

In context, its setting up why the paper specs and TF will not perform any better.

Getting his excuses lined up ready.
 

M1chl

Currently Gif and Meme Champion
That's strange because .Net environment is great. Way better than competition.
I don't agree, QT for example is far better for UI type apps. If you re using .net for anything else, then fine. I guess.
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
but it seems they have the upper hand in being the lead console for multiplatforms, because of it

I am not sure XSX will be the third parties lead platform although some games will look better on it (by some amount, maybe small) and there should be areas where PS5 would look better... this is not an Xbox One X vs PS4 Pro scenario where one console is more powerful/better in 99.8% of the comparison points.
 

nowhat

Member
PS3 was hell for most devs yet there’s things on the platform which perfectly hold up a decade later.
How many of those "things" were developed by a studio that was not first-party?

PS3 was a bitch of a platform, despite being quite supreme in very specific areas. I think it's quite telling that it took pretty much the entire lifetime of the console for the first-party devs to get it right.
 
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geordiemp

Member
It look like Xbox will leave some performance on the table.

I think so, looking at XSX hotchips I expected more than 4 shader arrays for the number of CU being fed, thats what wide and slow is.

The arrangement looks like MS wanted to split GPU into 4 for 4 instances on a server.

I also must of posted 100 times about DX12 more abstract and fatter apis.

The games will be the benchmark.
 
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This doesn’t make any sense at all. Any dev that have worked with PC has dealt with these supposed issues and I have never seen one complaining about how many pc builds are out there.
 

kuncol02

Member
I don't agree, QT for example is far better for UI type apps. If you re using .net for anything else, then fine. I guess.
WinForms are mess that's true (but they are mess no mater what language or environment you use), but I actually really like WPF.
 
It look like Xbox will leave some performance on the table.

Sounds like wishful thinking on your part.

Read it for eactly what was said



In context, its setting up why the paper specs and TF will not perform any better.

Getting his excuses lined up ready.

It's at the end of a 40 minute video in which he's said many times he expects the XBX to out-perform the PS5 eventually, software optimization dependent, but that that differences between the two until then will be absolutely minimal and closer than ever before.

If you want to read a handful of devs adapting to a changing environment as excuse making on Richard's part, then I don't know what to tell you. Your post history doesn't inspire me with confidence that you're making this baseless assertion in good faith, however.
 

M1chl

Currently Gif and Meme Champion
WinForms are mess that's true (but they are mess no mater what language or environment you use), but I actually really like WPF.
Yeah well I have an experience with it also and I still prefer nature of QT. To prove my point, I love how UI is handled on Android and hated how it's done on iOS, I guess it's a style, which reminds me of WPF.

For what type of Application are you using .net? Aand with what language are you making those apps?
 

geordiemp

Member
Sounds like wishful thinking on your part.



It's at the end of a 40 minute video in which he's said many times he expects the XBX to out-perform the PS5 eventually, software optimization dependent, but that that differences between the two until then will be absolutely minimal and closer than ever before.

If you want to read a handful of devs adapting to a changing environment as excuse making on Richard's part, then I don't know what to tell you. Your post history doesn't inspire me with confidence that you're making this baseless assertion in good faith, however.

Richard is also assuming that 12 TF will perform better than 10 TF and paper specs, he is a journalist that observes how games run - thats all. Paper specs is also about L2 to L0 cache, their size and how fast and efficiently they feed the CUs.

Its all assumptions, lets wait until we can see XSX at 4K with Ray tracing to see if its really optimised well for wide layout, as the silicon shaders are not laid out wide are they ?

I expect them to be similar, and dependiong on lead one might be beter than other and visa versa. Depends on the game and engine. I am expecting no big power differences at all.

Dont go into post history and start the ad hominem, its lazy, discuss the fucking point pls.
 
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j0hnnix

Member
"they've moved away from what was previously the XDK which was specific for the Xbox to the GDK which is a more general environment for PC and for Xbox and even Xbox one is encompassed by the GDK"

 

12Dannu123

Member
I am not sure XSX will be the third parties lead platform although some games will look better on it (by some amount, maybe small) and there should be areas where PS5 would look better... this is not an Xbox One X vs PS4 Pro scenario where one console is more powerful/better in 99.8% of the comparison points.

It will be because the XSX is a GDK that supports, Console and PC. It sounds like a game that works on Xbox consoles will work on Windows 10 (Though not optimised for M&K) This stems from the work MS has been doing with Windows 10 OS and Xbox OS.

Sony doesn't control the architecture of Windows.
 
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John Wick

Member
You already know it, Sony has blown their load. I have a feeling Microsoft had quite a few things on the back burner just waiting for them to exhaust themselves.
Your feelings are wrong. Search them you know this to be true. What MS showed was about 2 years out already. What they gonna show? Games 3 years out with CGI trailers? It's Sony who've got games they've kept back.
 
This doesn’t make any sense at all. Any dev that have worked with PC has dealt with these supposed issues and I have never seen one complaining about how many pc builds are out there.

It was more about why the 12TF is a paper spec and might not be exploited in real-world scenarios. The expectation that a close environment hardware would yield to optimization and performance will be hampered by the generic development kit and api.
 
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geordiemp

Member
It was more about why the 12TF is a paper spec and might not be exploited in real-world scenarios. The expectation that a close environment hardware would yield to optimization and performance will be hampered by the generic development kit and api.

Yup, if you read or listen to the context, its about how optimised for XSX games are and actual performance vs paper specs........

Richard is rehearsing his excuses ready.
 

thelastword

Banned
I guess Dusk Golem and the XBOX Discord group will have something to say about that.....I hope Alex didn't fight with his boos after that quip......Maybe he used "cloak engaged" when he did...
Still, being more difficult to develop on doesn’t mean much.
PS3 was hell for most devs yet there’s things on the platform which perfectly hold up a decade later. We’ll see insane shit on Series X.
PS3 also had the best devs and if a developer understood and could program for Cell properly, then 360 could not compete......That's why Sony first party was consistently more impressive over MS first party in that era...
People said the same thing about the Xbox One.
The XBOX ONE had ESRAM, slower memory, had a weaker GPU. The extra 175Mhz on the CPU was to process a 3 prong OS or MS's hypervisor, it also had to feed the kinect......MS released all of that and next to PS4 XBOX ONE still has to cut off many effects and settings besides resolution in the latest titles. Just look at a bevy of comparisons in the last few years.....Soul Calibur, Ace Combat, Monster Hunter etc etc......Had MS kept Kinect and all of the OS footprint going, XBOX ONE's performance would be even worse than it is right now, if you can imagine it....
DF words are only true when it holds Sony in a positive light. So many hypocrites on GAF these days. Not even worth engaging in these echo chambers.
No. nobody ever said DF are all lies. They just say many untruths, even some of their data which is supposed to be objective and factual is not correct.....That's the issue people have with DF...

Now you realize that many people are now calling DF out for their bias and lack of credibility, they got mentions from tech Jesus, JayzTwoCents and many others for their Nvidia 3080 puff piece on one title at 4K,, where they set up Doom to use more than 8GB .knowing that the 2080 would suffer at 4K at these settings, just to put the new 3000 series in a good light. We know they are MS's golden journalist for tech reveals and such, we know they love Nvidia and RTX, they make no bones about it. However, since they realize that more people are questioning them now and putting them in the spotlight for it, they are careful, not to lose everything or wane into obscurity.....

DF has to be more neutral going forward, it won't happen, but they have to try at least..

Yet, people are not suddenly on Richard's side calling him the golden truth bucket, people are just pointing out that even someone so MS biased has finally spoken the truth on the issue, that's how glaring it is.......It must have hurt him to say it and maybe it's a call to MS to streamline the API a bit more, the statement stems from pure Love for MS more than anything....It's simple, Richard has already seen or heard how some games are shaping up on both platforms. All the "significantly more powerful anthems are seen for what they truly are"........This bit here is just a precursor to an excuse piece in "If only devs could fully utilize the Series X power and were not hamstrung by the transition to a new Dev Environment/SDK"......In this faceoff PS5 has better textures, loads better, but Series X wins based on the potential of it's paper assembly and it's new API, which is a "really" a gamechanger......(all of that with potent hand gesticulation app 2.0)


Developers should stop complaining and get to work.

Don't embarrass yourselves like this.

Oh my god there are some new features in my development environment, MS sucks ! Sony rules, nothing as changed at all, so I don't have to use my brain !
You should have been there in the PS3 era, we said the same thing about PS3, which was proven true. Gabe from steam hated PS3, but still pulled off the best versions of Portal on there. Santa Monica, Naughty Dog, Poliphony Digital, Insomniac, San Diego, Evolution Studios, Sucker Punch still pulled out the best visuals for that generation......

The crazy thing about MS is that they don't have that talent..... and developing for a powerfull cell is not the same as what's happening with MS here.....They simply want cross porting from PC to XBOX and vice versa to go easier.......It makes sense since all their games are now on PC. It makes sense since their last few games took way too much time in development like Crackdown, which is XBOX/PC.....Their idea is, if PC/XBX development is faster, maybe they can spend a little more time on polish. Well I hope that's their intent, I'm just playing devil's advocate here....

In essence, they need to deliver content faster, not just for console and PC but moreso to feed gamepass at a speedier rate. Their development to release turnrate, they once pegged it at every 3 months for their first parties, I guess on smaller titles, but with them losing so much money on GP, the service may die or shutter before that constant content keeps flowing....It's not going to be easy to accomplish that....The big problem with MS, is that they are trying to cater to too many devices and game delivery channels too soon.....They need to work on their game quality and a proper development schedule and gameplan first.....Their studios are not even ready for this launch, to complicate matters for developers in transitioning to a new SDK is only going to see them fiddle around for a year two at the starting blocks....I don't know about you, but I've never seen MS win with a bad/slow start. They had a 1 year headstart on PS3 and they still didn't win that one.......If MS first parties are struggling, you can say that some third parties will struggle too, with the exception of the Dynamic Voltage guy, he and Capcom have no issue with Series X development. So we shall see if their symptoms prove infectious..
 
In a new report from Digital Foundry, the Microsoft owned studio was able to get Gears 5 running on the Series X at ultra-settings in just two weeks' time. While that quick turnaround was likely due to the game having a PC port available, it does show how much more accomodating the Series X will be to develop for. Nothing too strenuous was required on the part of the development team.


And yet, here we have a different story with Gears 5. Not hard to seperate the good devs from the bad. Can't be that hard to develop for if they were able to do that in two weeks.
 

nikolino840

Member
Isn't becouse millions of copies vs thousand of copies?
Why are more happy on switch that they have to change even the engine?
 
DF words are only true when it holds Sony in a positive light. So many hypocrites on GAF these days. Not even worth engaging in these echo chambers.

The reason it is believable is because it is not his words or opinion. These are words conveyed to him which he is sharing.

Good thing he didn't add his hot take and make an uninformed opinion about it. He might be wary of his bias reputation now so it's a good thing he is being careful.
 
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kuncol02

Member
Yeah well I have an experience with it also and I still prefer nature of QT. To prove my point, I love how UI is handled on Android and hated how it's done on iOS, I guess it's a style, which reminds me of WPF.

For what type of Application are you using .net? Aand with what language are you making those apps?
Some POS software exclusively in C# + SQL.
 

GHG

Member
You already know it, Sony has blown their load. I have a feeling Microsoft had quite a few things on the back burner just waiting for them to exhaust themselves.

Well they are running out of time because it would make sense for them to get this stuff out there before the pre orders go live.
 

SaucyJack

Member
Is the main takeaway from this that the more generic GDK for Xbox will mean greater abstraction somewhat offsetting the power advantage, whilst the more focussed PS will allow devs to extract the power more easily?

So the theoretical power gap (18% or whatever) which would have resulted in imperceptible differences in resolution will in reality be even less?
 
DF geting their excuses ready when ps games look same or god forbid better.

Its more than about apis and TF, you need to keep those large XSX shader arrays fed.

And Ray tracing is memory intensive, not just RAM< but also caches and cache bus speed.

Lets wait for a comparison, Richard getting his story ready.....

Our master has spoken.

I can see why Your theory might be true.

Difference is nowhere near what Phils Alliance have been preaching and DF is somehow frustrated with that.
 

yurinka

Member
Let's have a conversation about it. Is this why we have not seen XSX footage yet?
We saw XSX footage of Halo Infinite. Looked way better than crossgen PS5 games like Miles Morales or Horizon 2, showcasing the teraflops lead.

Just kidding, please don't kill me


The biggest issue with Series S is gimped RAM. Otherwise it could have been the masterstroke by MS.
As I remember it's also 66% less powerful than Series X (4 vs 12 tf). It's a pretty big difference, way more than the one saved from rendering a game in 1440p vs 4K and getting the same results. I think games won't look as good as when using a Series X on a 1080p or 1440p display. And then you also have the smaller SSD.

Instead of killing XB1X, leaving XB1S alive and releasing Series S I'd have killed XB1S, wouldn't have released Series S and would have kept alive XB1X as their cheap SKU, specially considering Series S will run XB1S versions instead the XB1X ones.
 
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CrysisFreak

Banned
Shouldn't devs be happy that MS provides them with one dev kit for both console and PC now? They should think long-term, that's pretty cool for them.
Of course I hope that PS5 becomes the lead dev platform jfl.
 

llien

Member
So, basically DF is the new wccftech now.

Some not liking to go from one dev env to slightly different one is understandable.
Microsoft in general having toolkit/APIs that are inferior to Sony's would be an embarrassment, given what Microsoft is.

Isn’t this the same person people here were calling a MS shill for getting early access to the Series S?
It is the same guy who lied about 3080 performance in 'exclusive preview'.
Just a coincidence, obviously.
 
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yurinka

Member
It was actually running on PC.
What? So is it real that they still didn't show gameplay of a Series X game? It can't be possible, we're 2 months away of the release. I assume some of these games shown in their Xbox showcase videos must be running on a Series X.

Shouldn't devs be happy that MS provides them with one dev kit for both console and PC now? They should think long-term, that's pretty cool for them.
Of course I hope that PS5 becomes the lead dev platform jfl.
What? You don't need a dev kit to develop PC games. Devkits are only needed to develop console games.
 
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What? So is it real that they still didn't show gameplay of a Series X game? It can't be possible, we're 2 months away of the release. I assume some of these games shown in their Xbox showcase videos must be running on a Series X.


I don't think any game was running on XSX
 
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CrysisFreak

Banned
What? So is it real that they still didn't show gameplay of a Series X game? It can't be possible, we're 2 months away of the release. I assume some of these games shown in their Xbox showcase videos must be running on a Series X.


What? You don't need a dev kit to develop PC games. Devkits are only needed to develop console games.
I meant SDK sorry.
 

kuncol02

Member
MSSQL sucks ass. I don't like it. Honestly I haven't use it since high school, but based on flexibility alone MySQl or any other db system is better.
Believe me. There are db systems way worse than MSSQL. Porting apps from MSSQL to SQLite is pure fun. If you are masochist.
 

Garani

Member
What? So is it real that they still didn't show gameplay of a Series X game? It can't be possible, we're 2 months away of the release. I assume some of these games shown in their Xbox showcase videos must be running on a Series X.

Someone actually dumped on me 3 trailers of XBox games stating that they were captured on the XSX. Problem was that no where there was mention of the device where they where catured from, and no one was from the XBox youtube channel.

Here's the links:



The ONLY game that I am sure that was stated as captured on a console was Dirt 5 on the XBox Series S. And honestly, it felt as bare as Halo Infinte.
 
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