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DF Direct: The PS5

GymWolf

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More like they should grow a fucking spine and actually say what they think instead of sitting there and sugarcoating opinions because reasons.
and renounce to sony butthurted subscribers and patreons?
if xbox was the most famous console maybe, but not with the actual situation.
 

Shmunter

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but isn't it the kind of stuff that only affects first party games?
Well, in the talk they show a rudimentary top down view of a character walking around a house in aid of representing streaming in 4gig of assets in 1/2 second as he turns. At this speed, this type of scenario would work only on PS5.

It could be ported to the XsX with e.g. 50% lower res textures or half the framerate of the PS5. Don’t shoot xbros, I’m on your side too - just common sense scenario example.
 

hyperbertha

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So it's shit then?

Good job I have a pc, I'll wait for the ps5pro to be closer to a generation leap
mid gen refreshes have no bearing on anything other than fps/resolution. Games are always going to be limited by the lowest common denominator.
 

GymWolf

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from the DF dude on reeeee

I think the gpu and CPU clocking Thing will work like this, i have it on a good hunch:

Devs will prioritise modes like high clocked GPU and lower clockd CPU, or the other way around. That is basically what the presentation says, they will have trouble hitting full speeds on both parts simultaneously due to utilisation (which is a bit duh), so one Part being higherclocked requires an under utilisation of the other. So a game that is mostly gpu limited will use a gpu Mode, a very intense open world game or... Some other Design requiring more CPU will use a CPU Mode. So underclocking the GPU there.

This of course assume that games do not really heavily utilise both parts at the same time, in which case, like a 60 Assassin's Creed game as we see on PC. Or a game with variable drs and a lot of CPU Stuff. Or any ambtious game that want to do both simulation and graphical things.

The one Part being higher clocked, requires an under utilisation of the other. Hence why freefloating resolution game with very preise dynamic resolution scaling, like Doom, Titan Fall 2, modern warfare etc. Will all probably need to be in the Mode for GPU Power. They are already maxing the GPU as is due to their Design.



so basically if a game want to push both graphics and physics\stuff on screen they can't use the max power from cpu and gpu, they have to make a choice.

do you remember your beloved set pieces in uncharted or gow with a lot of shit on screen, those are the scene where the power is gonna lack on one side or another.

what an elegant and balanced solution :messenger_sunglasses:
 
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Kenpachii

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and renounce to sony butthurted subscribers and patreons?
if xbox was the most famous console maybe, but not with the actual situation.
That's the issue with those outlets and even reviewers of games, they are all hostages of their biggest payroll.
 

Bogroll

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yes, third party devs are not gonna waste timen and money to make exclusive features around ps5 ssd like they never did in any multy games before.
It was padded out with audio talk as well that most won't even notice.
 
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toxiichollow

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from the DF dude on reeeee

I think the gpu and CPU clocking Thing will work like this, i have it on a good hunch:

Devs will prioritise modes like high clocked GPU and lower clockd CPU, or the other way around. That is basically what the presentation says, they will have trouble hitting full speeds on both parts simultaneously due to utilisation (which is a bit duh), so one Part being higherclocked requires an under utilisation of the other. So a game that is mostly gpu limited will use a gpu Mode, a very intense open world game or... Some other Design requiring more CPU will use a CPU Mode. So underclocking the GPU there.

This of course assume that games do not really heavily utilise both parts at the same time, in which case, like a 60 Assassin's Creed game as we see on PC. Or a game with variable drs and a lot of CPU Stuff. Or any ambtious game that want to do both simulation and graphical things.

The one Part being higher clocked, requires an under utilisation of the other. Hence why freefloating resolution game with very preise dynamic resolution scaling, like Doom, Titan Fall 2, modern warfare etc. Will all probably need to be in the Mode for GPU Power. They are already maxing the GPU as is due to their Design.



so basically if a game want to push both graphics and physics\stuff on screen they can't use the max power from cpu and gpu, they have to make a choice.

do you remember your beloved set pieces in uncharted or gow with a lot of shit on screen, those are the scene where the power is gonna lack on one side or another.

what an elegant and balanced solution :messenger_sunglasses:

LOL you should probably post that in the "balance" thread
 
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hyperbertha

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Well, in the talk they show a rudimentary top down view of a character walking around a house in aid of representing streaming in 4gig of assets in 1/2 second as he turns. At this speed, this type of scenario would work only on PS5.

It could be ported to the XsX with e.g. 50% lower res textures or half the framerate of the PS5. Don’t shoot xbros, I’m on your side too - just common sense scenario example.
So in other words both the Xbox and the ps5 can stream GBs worth of data instantaneously without a loading screen, but the ps5 can do it at twice the texture resolution/polycount due to its SSD being twice as fast? The high speed SSDs seem to be a factor going forward in both consoles next gen but any advantage the ps5 may have will depend on whether the devs will even bother to take advantage of its extra 2 GB/s when the Xbox is bottlenecking them. From what I'm gathering, the PS5 could actually end up getting an advantage in areas like LOD and general detail at similar performance levels depending on the extra work third party devs put in, but that extra work seems to be key.
 

it_wasn't_me

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So in other words both the Xbox and the ps5 can stream GBs worth of data instantaneously without a loading screen, but the ps5 can do it at twice the texture resolution/polycount due to its SSD being twice as fast? The high speed SSDs seem to be a factor going forward in both consoles next gen but any advantage the ps5 may have will depend on whether the devs will even bother to take advantage of its extra 2 GB/s when the Xbox is bottlenecking them. From what I'm gathering, the PS5 could actually end up getting an advantage in areas like LOD and general detail at similar performance levels depending on the extra work third party devs put in, but that extra work seems to be key.
You mean more than a twice as fast in raw data.
 

Shmunter

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People forget the XsX has some exotic knobs on it. The cpu downclocks if you want more threads, and 6gig is slower than the 16gig on PS5.

Both systems require some developer consideration on how to harness it best.
 

it_wasn't_me

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from the DF dude on reeeee

I think the gpu and CPU clocking Thing will work like this, i have it on a good hunch:

Devs will prioritise modes like high clocked GPU and lower clockd CPU, or the other way around. That is basically what the presentation says, they will have trouble hitting full speeds on both parts simultaneously due to utilisation (which is a bit duh), so one Part being higherclocked requires an under utilisation of the other. So a game that is mostly gpu limited will use a gpu Mode, a very intense open world game or... Some other Design requiring more CPU will use a CPU Mode. So underclocking the GPU there.

This of course assume that games do not really heavily utilise both parts at the same time, in which case, like a 60 Assassin's Creed game as we see on PC. Or a game with variable drs and a lot of CPU Stuff. Or any ambtious game that want to do both simulation and graphical things.

The one Part being higher clocked, requires an under utilisation of the other. Hence why freefloating resolution game with very preise dynamic resolution scaling, like Doom, Titan Fall 2, modern warfare etc. Will all probably need to be in the Mode for GPU Power. They are already maxing the GPU as is due to their Design.



so basically if a game want to push both graphics and physics\stuff on screen they can't use the max power from cpu and gpu, they have to make a choice.

do you remember your beloved set pieces in uncharted or gow with a lot of shit on screen, those are the scene where the power is gonna lack on one side or another.

what an elegant and balanced solution :messenger_sunglasses:

Maybe CPU and GPU variability will work like this :

However, there is a twist and it's something we've covered before, that we can now see play out in real-time - Nintendo's 'boost mode'. This amounts to optimisations in how certain games selectively overclock the CPU to improve loading times. For example, when you die in Mario Odyssey, the screen fades to black and the game loads you back to the last checkpoint. There is a fairly quick turnaround in Odyssey but this is faster thanks to boost mode. During loading, the CPU gets upclocked temporarily to 1785MHz - a 75 per cent increase on the stock clock. Meanwhile, the GPU actually drops all the way down to 76.8MHz - a tenth of its usual speed. Nintendo is balancing thermals by overclocking one component to the max, while downclocking another to the bare minimum.
New Switch mod delivers real-time CPU, GPU and thermal monitoring - and the results are remarkable
 
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Shmunter

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So in other words both the Xbox and the ps5 can stream GBs worth of data instantaneously without a loading screen, but the ps5 can do it at twice the texture resolution/polycount due to its SSD being twice as fast? The high speed SSDs seem to be a factor going forward in both consoles next gen but any advantage the ps5 may have will depend on whether the devs will even bother to take advantage of its extra 2 GB/s when the Xbox is bottlenecking them. From what I'm gathering, the PS5 could actually end up getting an advantage in areas like LOD and general detail at similar performance levels depending on the extra work third party devs put in, but that extra work seems to be key.
Yes all valid. The whole one holding back another scenario is yet to be fully explored. And even beyond these 2 systems, we still have cross gen considerations, PC and possibly a Lockheart to contend with. Where does the buck stop, nobody knows.
 

hyperbertha

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Yes all valid. The whole one holding back another scenario is yet to be fully explored. And even beyond these 2 systems, we still have cross gen considerations, PC and possibly a Lockheart to contend with. Where does the buck stop, nobody knows.
Most PC gamers don't even have a standard SSD as far as I know, much less Nvme. Which means the whole SSD thing could end up being entirely ignored by third party devs going forward now that I think about it, which is disappointing.
 
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Shmunter

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Most PC gamers don't even have a standard SSD as far as I know, much less Nvme. Which means the whole SSD thing could end up being entirely ignored by third party devs going forward now that I think about it, which is disappointing.
Pretty much. 1st party will use it and it will be fantastic. 3rd party will shy away because they will want it on as many system as possible.

There are only two 3rd party caveats. One can come from platform holder sponsorship, where Sony or MS sponsors the game and gets the best version with watered down ports for the rest. OR a console sells significantly more than the rest warranting it as the defecto target platform.
 

48086

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Can someone explain what makes the ps5 ssd tech so much more interesting than the xsx ssd other than “it’s just faster”?
 

sinnergy

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It’s in the video. Talked about very in detail
Yeah lots of numbers and spin , no practical use yet, show something like Hell blade 2. Theoretically you can run 20 gig a sec , with text files or what ? 64 kB files?, he said nothing about what filed or assets ..
 
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Musky_Cheese

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Yeah lots of numbers and spin , no practical use yet, show something like Hell blade 2. Theoretically you can run 20 gig a sec , with text files or what ? 64 kB files?, he said nothing about what filed or assets ..
Lots of numbers yes, spin... no

The problem with what Sony did yesterday is they gave a technical talk on the system, what and why. They should have just used buzzwords and spin so some could better grasp.

Always talk HP, not Power to weight for example.
 
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sinnergy

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Lots of numbers yes, spin... no

The problem with what Sony did yesterday is they gave a technical talk on the system, what and why. They should have just used buzzwords and spin so some could better grasp.

Always talk HP, not Power to weight for example.
Yes it was incomplete and not in depth enough, no mention of files etc at all. Was a bad showing on a academic level.

Not GDC worthy imo.
 
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Fbh

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I hope I'm wrong.... and to be honest I didn't watch the entire 40 minutes thing.

But the whole SSD talk sounds like a lot of "could in theory/ could potentially". It reminds me of when everyone was talking about how directX 12 was going to "in theory/potentially" totally make Xb1 games much better despite the weaker hardware.

But until these things are out and we have some games to compare directly I guess that's all they can talk about
 
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48086

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It’s in the video. Talked about very in detail
No it's not. They explained how the ssd works but they never compared it to the xsx showing how the xsx is inferior in terms of games. Clearly, the ssd of the ps5 will offer faster loading times than the ssd of the xsx,. but as far as I can tell that's the only benefit that will be noticeable when comparing it to the xsx ssd. The current dog whistle and narrative is that the ps5 ssd tech is so amazing (I'm not saying it's not btw) but no one is explaining how it is so much more amazing than the xsx ssd and how the advantages will be shown is games...other than load time of course.
 
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So it seems the the PS5 is the console equivalent of a Dexterity build in Dark Souls, all about nimbleness and speed of thought, better suited to the skilled gamer and devastating when played correctly.

The Xbox Series is the Pure Strength build....very slow but hits hard, suited too the more casual gamer.

I myself, play a low intelligence build :)
I just use cheat codes/mods to make me invincible.....where’s that console equivalent
 

Sosokrates

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I'm not very tech savy so please forgive my ignorance, but is the CU amount and clock-speed differences something similar to a quad core high clock-speed vs octa core lower clock-speed CPU-s? I remember in the past, that for gaming quad cores sometimes performed even better or similar to octa core processors because devs didn't or couldn't utilize the extra cores.

Although we are talking about consoles that are supposed to last 6-7 years, so down the line we might see XSX pulling ahead due to better optimization?
Im sorry but I don't understand half the stuff i wrote there, i just repeated what cerny said.
We need a real dev to tell us whats up.
Im going to try asking some but i doubt they will reply to me.
 

Musky_Cheese

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No it's not. They explained how the ssd works but they never compared it to the xsx showing how the xsx is inferior in terms of games. Clearly, the ssd of the ps5 will offer faster loading times than the ssd of the xsx,. but as far as I can tell that's the only benefit that will be noticeable when comparing it to the xsx ssd. The current dog whistle and narrative is that the ps5 ssd tech is so amazing (I'm not saying it's not btw) but no one is explaining how it is so much more amazing than the xsx ssd and how the advantages will be shown is games...other than load time of course.
Cerny explained it, DF explained it, people on here like Shmunter Shmunter explained it.

You want it explained in TFlops or something. Because if you think what they explained is simply slightly faster load times...
 

Dodkrake

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Xbox Series X - Ford GT with a massive Engine and grunt
PS5 - a Ferrari with a smaller, more complex and optimized engine

Both have their strong and weak points, and both are very different in their approach to how games will be developed.
 

48086

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Cerny explained it, DF explained it, people on here like Shmunter Shmunter explained it.

You want it explained in TFlops or something. Because if you think what they explained is simply slightly faster load times...
Give me the timestamp of where the df video explains how the ssd in the ps5 will directly translate to in game advantages that the ssd in the xsx can't do. Are you even reading my posts? Also, tf have nothing to do with ssd drives. What are you even talking about?
 
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Piku_Ringo

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Yeah, I’m no fan of the approach just trying to make sense of what Sony is up to.

We’re simple creatures, we want to put a nice bow tie on some simple like for like figures and call it a day. Seemingly we have a curveball here that’s making heads spin.
That was never going to happen with Master of Disguise giving the presentation

 

Musky_Cheese

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Give me the timestamp of where the df video explains how the ssd in the ps5 will directly translate to in game advantages that the ssd in the xsx can't do. Are you even reading my posts? Also, tf have nothing to do with ssd drives. What are you even talking about?
lol I think you might not be reading mine
 

48086

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lol I think you might not be reading mine
Nope, I was. That's why I went back and looked through Shmunter Shmunter 's post history to see what he said. Unlike you, he actually gave an example lol. It's not quite what I was looking for but it will do until df does some actual comparisons.
 
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Tomeru

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No, it was supposed to be a GDC conference. GDC never happened. It is the companies job to know their Audience. It's not the audience s job to figure it out for them. Sony messed up unfortunately.
Come on, lets not blame companies for the level of their audience' iq.
 
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Musky_Cheese

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Nope, I was. That's why I went back and looked through Shmunter Shmunter 's post history to see what he said. Unlike you, he actually gave an example lol. It's not quite what I was looking for but it will do until df does some actual comparisons.
Thats what you should do. You should go find answer to your questions.

I don't find the value to give you or anyone else time stamps or links that not only is easily available to you, but is the very material of which you are attempting to have a conversation on.

This was talked about by Cerny. If you either A) found it boring or tuned it out or B) didn't understand what you were hearing, how could I explain it to you in a better way than Cerny? Its what we all wondered since the Wired article, we... some of us finally got the answer.

Listen to what Cerny is telling you and then ask a question. Why should anyone give you a technical breakdown of a technical break down?
 

Shmunter

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Nope, I was. That's why I went back and looked through Shmunter Shmunter 's post history to see what he said. Unlike you, he actually gave an example lol. It's not quite what I was looking for but it will do until df does some actual comparisons.
Shit, you can do that? I’m gonna have to check that out.
 

Trogdor1123

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Come on, lets not blame companies for the level of their audience' iq.
100% they need to know their market and their audience. If they don't, how are supposed to know if their product is right for them.

It was 100% their mistake.
 

48086

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100% they need to know their market and their audience. If they don't, how are supposed to know if their product is right for them.

It was 100% their mistake.
Their audience for this talk was developers and people who would normally go to GDC. The talk was perfect for the intended audience.

What they messed up on was the marketing aspect. This is the first time they announced the actual specs and they did it as a video that anyone could watch. Of course your normal everyday fan would be watching. At one point, I saw 644k people watching on youtube. They should have done an announcement previous to this talk where they announced the tf and more details about the specs that was aimed at consumers.
 

Trogdor1123

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Dont sweat it, you'll get more information that you can understand later. Like pictures.
Really? Are you so desperate to protect them for such an obvious screw up (just look at the response here) That you are going to attack me? Pretty pathetic.

Just face it, they messed up. They took the wrong approach for the wrong audience. The system could end up awesome but this was a complete failure.

Edit: I have decided I was a bit too critical here and think I should dial it back. Just want to say that I'm probably being overly hyperbolic in my criticism of it. We really should, as you said, wait for more info.

It's just a bit frustrating is all.
 
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Sosokrates

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Its funny some people parroting "PS5s ssd will change the way games are designed"

Well.... Only for PS5 exclusives, and I wonder how much difference it will make in comparison to the xsx's ssd.

If sonys ssd is so good, why have 16gb ram? Why not go with 8gb of ram?

Cerny says its takes on average 0.5 seconds to turn around which would provide 4gb of compressed data from the ssd which he think will be about right for next gen.

In the XsX's case it could do this to but it would provide about 2.4gb for 0.5 seconds instead. So while the ps5 will have more space for stuff using this method, its still has to render all this stuff with the GPU which is less powerful then the XSX's.

I dont think this method will create a big differator between the 2. Especially when we consider that RAM is very fast and new data can fill the ram very quickly.

While 8gb (compressed) per second is a huge improvement over last gen, i think its pretty disingenuous to say it can be used exactly like RAM, why even bother with ram at all? If the ssd can do its job?
The xbox one had issues because of it slower 68GB/s ddr3 ram and even ddr3 is way faster then sonys ssd.
We are not getting the full story.
 
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Trogdor1123

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Their audience for this talk was developers and people who would normally go to GDC. The talk was perfect for the intended audience.

What they messed up on was the marketing aspect. This is the first time they announced the actual specs and they did it as a video that anyone could watch. Of course your normal everyday fan would be watching. At one point, I saw 644k people watching on youtube. They should have done an announcement previous to this talk where they announced the tf and more details about the specs that was aimed at consumers.
100% agree, it would have been perfect for GDC but they simply weren't there.

It was 100% given to the general public which makes it so baffling. I wish they were at GDC as it would have gone over much better. The timing also made it look like a response to Xbox which also was a swing and miss (it may not have been intended to be this but the optics are hard to deny).

I'm sure once the games and stuff come it will be really great.

I was just thinking about Bethesda and some comments they made about the next Skyrim needing new technology, could the HDD be that tech? An elderscrolls with no loads when you open doors? A truly interactive open world?
 

Flintty

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More like they should grow a fucking spine and actually say what they think instead of sitting there and sugarcoating opinions because reasons.
Heh. And to think, literally earlier this week there were posts on this board saying DF are sucking on the teat of MS.
 
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longdi

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what is not clear to me is how you can exclude ambiental temps from the equation?!
i live in catania, one of the most hotter city in italy during summer (and the rest of the year tbf), the difference between my room and a room in a far colder city it's gonna be around 20+ °celsius or more, how can a system don't take in account such a giant difference in external temps? also majority of people (me for example) never clean their console, isn't accumulated dust during the years have some sort of hit on internal temps?

serious question, not trolling.
I never exclude ambient temps. I only said, either Sony provides a aio cooler or it wont run sustained 2.23ghz.

Anyway in further postings since, it just seems Sony is doing load balancing between CPU and GPU using AMD smart shift and probably Sony's own profile from their large library of old games. Mark Sony sure like to repackage simple things.

So my guess, Sony designates a fix tdp, i expect about 280w (gpu = 250w, cpu 30w), design their cooler for 300w tdp dissipation.
To run 2.23ghz, developers have to assign the full 250w or more to the gpu.

There are rumors of 7nm+ rdna2 gpu can run higher clocks and rdna2 have a 50% perf/watt improvement over rdna1.
So the 5700(PS5 predecessor) can be softmod to run 1.9+ghz at 270w, it hits over 80 celsius.
I am skeptical PS5 gpu can run 2.23ghz constantly just on typical quiet air cooler.
 
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Tomeru

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Really? Are you so desperate to protect them for such an obvious screw up (just look at the response here) That you are going to attack me? Pretty pathetic.

Just face it, they messed up. They took the wrong approach for the wrong audience. The system could end up awesome but this was a complete failure.
Sorry, it wasnt aimed at you you. It was aimed at you gamers. The way this forum looks now is the pathetic thing. I guess its to be expected though, after the way xbots were treated this whole gen. I do think they are jumping the gun though. If xsx would churn out some real difference than the ps5 - that would speak volume much more than allthe memery thats going around here. I just wanna play sonys' 1st party games. I have my pc for everythong else.
 
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Trogdor1123

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Its funny some people parroting "PS5s ssd will change the way games are designed"

Well.... Only for PS5 exclusives, and I wonder how much difference it will make in comparison to the xsx's ssd.

If sonys ssd is so good, why have 16gb ram? Why not go with 8gb of ram?

Cerny says its takes on average 0.5 seconds to turn around which would provide 4gb of compressed data from the ssd which he think will be about right for next gen.

In the XsX's case it could do this to but it would provide about 2.4gb for 0.5 seconds instead. So while the ps5 will have more space for stuff using this method, its still has to render all this stuff with the GPU which is less powerful then the XSX's.

I dont think this method will create a big differator between the 2. Especially when we consider that RAM is very fast and new data can fill the ram very quickly.

While 8gb (compressed) per second is a huge improvement over last gen, i think its pretty disingenuous to say it can be used exactly like RAM, why even bother with ram at all? If the ssd can do its job?
The xbox one had issues because of it slower 68GB/s ddr3 ram and even ddr3 is way faster then sonys ssd.
We are not getting the full story.
I think this is an interesting point. Will it actually make a difference between the two? I hope an expert can weigh in.

I think Cerny talked about the reason for 16 gigs early in the presentation. I'd have to rewatch.
 

CJY

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Its funny some people parroting "PS5s ssd will change the way games are designed"

Well.... Only for PS5 exclusives, and I wonder how much difference it will make in comparison to the xsx's ssd.

If sonys ssd is so good, why have 16gb ram? Why not go with 8gb of ram?

Cerny says its takes on average 0.5 seconds to turn around which would provide 4gb of compressed data from the ssd which he think will be about right for next gen.

In the XsX's case it could do this to but it would provide about 2.4gb for 0.5 seconds instead. So while the ps5 will have more space for stuff using this method, its still has to render all this stuff with the GPU which is less powerful then the XSX's.

I dont think this method will create a big differator between the 2. Especially when we consider that RAM is very fast and new data can fill the ram very quickly.
Fundamentally, games on Xbox will be limited due to all their games also being PC compatible where practically everyone is still running mech HDs/slow SSDs. XSX devs will never be able to take advantage of the SSD properly, even in their exclusives. It's going to be at least 4-7 years before SSDs will become the standard in PC-land. Not to mention the Xbone which their games also have to run on.

Bottom line is only on PS5 will we see developers truly pushing the new game ideas and concepts that are made possible by blazingly fast SSD. Not saying XSX isn't capable of doing what PS5 will do, just that you won't see it due to the issues I mentioned above.