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DF Direct: Xbox Bethesda Games Showcase 2022 Reaction - Starfield, Forza Motorsport, Kojima!

adamsapple

Gold Member



Not one - but TWO - Microsoft/Xbox/Bethesda shows aired this week, so we decided to watch both of them before chiming in with our reactions. John, Rich, Oliver and Alex share their thoughts on the games on offer from the technical brilliance of Forza Motorsport to the next-gen BGS title, Starfield. Plus: what to make of the Kojima announcement?


00:00:00 Introductions
00:00:48 Starfield
00:19:24 Forza Motorsport
00:27:39 Hideo Kojima presentation
00:33:58 Redfall
00:40:40 High On Life
00:45:22 A Plague Tale: Requiem
00:51:27 Forza Horizon 5: Hot Wheels
00:57:44 Ark 2
01:02:34 Diablo 4
01:08:37 Persona 3, 4, 5 ports
01:12:32 Scorn
01:16:00 Flintlock
01:18:48 The Last Case of Benedict Fox
01:20:49 Ereban
01:21:42 Cocoon
01:23:16 Ravenlok
01:24:39 Wo Long: Fallen Dynasty
01:27:24 Final thoughts
 
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KyoZz

Gold Member
According to DF - Starfield looks pretty good and huge improvement in graphics compared to old Bethesda games.


PC Gamer PC Gamer where you at? Go F off with your stupid click bait articles.
Seriously, who cares?

It's honestly tiring to see people waiting for the opinion of others to judge the quality of a game. Especially GRAPHICAL quality.
Starfield is not the most beautiful game ever created. So what? It will be pretty enough to be enjoyed.
 

Hezekiah

Banned
They'd better get in some kind of TAA if they plan to have a 60 FPS performance mode at a lower resolution, no AA with DRS won't look pretty.
I hope they are targeting 60fps on console, but the presentation, and Todd's IGN interview has me wondering.

I really hope this gen doesn't degenerate back to 30fps as standard once the proper next-gen games come.
 

Sosokrates

Gold Member
Seriously, who cares?

It's honestly tiring to see people waiting for the opinion of others to judge the quality of a game. Especially GRAPHICAL quality.
Starfield is not the most beautiful game ever created. So what? It will be pretty enough to be enjoyed.

While that is true, on a slightly different but semi related note, I will say that visual analysis are very useful, because DF are relibale source that shows us why a game looks the way it does, for better and for worse.

Having an opinion without some identifying facts, is not really an opinion worth much.

For people who say a game looks worse or better then it is are easily dealt with by bombarding them with evidence which shows them to be incorrect, and DF analysis are a good resource for that. Especially when its a media organisation such as PC gamer.
 

Golgo 13

The Man With The Golden Dong
And that was shown at the part of the conference which was confirmed to be all running on XSX.

I think native 4k is a mistake but fans of 60 fps will be happy. There will likely be a 1440p 60 fps performance mode on the XSX.

Shmunter Shmunter Happy?
I think Starfield looked good but choppy as fuck because my eyes are so used to 60FPS. It's also worth noting that the footage was heavily edited and not uninterrupted gameplay - so that mode could very well still have big drops they edited out. I *really* hope there's a performance mode, but this being a next-gen/PC exclusive I have my doubts - they'll go for that visual appeal first and foremost.
 

KyoZz

Gold Member
While that is true, on a slightly different but semi related note, I will say that visual analysis are very useful, because DF are relibale source that shows us why a game looks the way it does, for better and for worse.

Having an opinion without some identifying facts, is not really an opinion worth much.

For people who say a game looks worse or better then it is are easily dealt with by bombarding them with evidence which shows them to be incorrect, and DF analysis are a good resource for that. Especially when its a media organisation such as PC gamer.
Oh yeah I completely understand that. I like to watch DF too because of how detailed they are with their analysis.
But it's not what I'm talking about.
 

SlimySnake

Member
Meh, watched the Forza section and while Richard talked a bit about making these shows include disclaimers about which version of the game is being shown and whether or not its realtime or a cinematic, he didnt touch on whether this game is cross gen or not. He seems to specifically mention misleading trailers, so he seems to care about this stuff. I just think he needs to reach out to Sony and Microsoft when these cross gen looking games come out, and ask them to confirm whether or not they are cross gen. Even a no-comment at that point is basically a non-denial denial.

i still remember when just a gen or two ago, the racing sims were by far the most visually impressive and photorealistic games on the consoles. But now, an open world (literally an entire world) Bethesda game looks better than their premiere racing game. The question has to be asked, why? PD also pretended that realtime Time of Day and weather changes were a next gen upgrade while i was like ummm, DriveClub had this back in 2014. Turns out, even the PS4 versions of GT7 supported realtime time of day and weather. Thats not exactly next gen so not sure why DF was acting like its the biggest upgrade since sliced bread.
 

Hendrick's

Member
Seriously, who cares?

It's honestly tiring to see people waiting for the opinion of others to judge the quality of a game. Especially GRAPHICAL quality.
Starfield is not the most beautiful game ever created. So what? It will be pretty enough to be enjoyed.
It's also larger in scope than nearly any other game that one can claim looks better. Star Citizen is probably the one exception, but we all know that "game" is a poor comparison.
 

SlimySnake

Member
Yes cause you can stream it to your xbox one. It's a next gen (well current gen) game.

https://www.xbox.com/en-GB/games/forza-motorsport

They just use xbox consoles and it doesn't define a generation of consoles.
They talked repeatedly about how FM was a next-gen experience, and the generational leap between it and FM7. I doubt we see an X1 version.
Yeah, but we have heard this all before. I would just like Richard to get confirmation on it because it doesnt look next gen to me. Flight sim trailers were played right after and the lighting alone looked a gen apart.
 

DaGwaphics

Gold Member
Yeah, but we have heard this all before. I would just like Richard to get confirmation on it because it doesnt look next gen to me. Flight sim trailers were played right after and the lighting alone looked a gen apart.
I wasn't talking about DF, I was referring to Turn 10 during the showcase. So far MS has been very clear about what 1st party games are and are not coming to X1. They were upfront about FH5. If an X1 port was coming, I think they would mention it.
 

reksveks

Member
Yeah, but we have heard this all before. I would just like Richard to get confirmation on it because it doesnt look next gen to me. Flight sim trailers were played right after and the lighting alone looked a gen apart.
I think you have the personal expectation of next gen that's a bit unfair.

Forza and Flight Sim are two very different games with two very different workloads.
 

Hendrick's

Member
Yeah, but we have heard this all before. I would just like Richard to get confirmation on it because it doesnt look next gen to me. Flight sim trailers were played right after and the lighting alone looked a gen apart.
First of all you are wrong. Second of all, FS was 30fps and FM is 60.
 

SlimySnake

Member
I think you have the personal expectation of next gen that's a bit unfair.

Forza and Flight Sim are two very different games with two very different workloads.
Lets bookmark this post and revisit this 3-4 years from now when they release the next Forza Horizon or Forza Motorsport. I think you will see that they will feature Flight Sim quality lighting, track side detail and car models.

Lets not forget, there is literally a 10x difference in tflops between the original xbox one specs and the xsx. 9.3x after the clockspeed boost. This is even before 50% IPC gains over the original GCN Xbox One GPU which should give it a raw 15x more GPU horsepower. Way bigger leap than 360 to Xbox One. It's not unfair to have higher next gen expectations especially now that they are no longer held back by the shitty Jaguar CPUs and slow HDD speeds. Looking at the Forza 7 to Forza 8 comparisons, the difference is very minor for a near 10x boost is GPU horsepower. I am surprised that a tech critic like DF is content with this upgrade. I legit think Forza Horizon 5 looks better than this game and its an open world last gen game being held back by the 1.3 tflops base Xbox one. TBH, this might be the same situation as TLOU remake on the PS5. It's next gen only, but they dont seem to be utilizing the next gen hardware as well as they can.

Criterion released this footage a couple of years ago. This is realtime and what I expect from next gen only racing games.

 
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SlimySnake

Member
I think Starfield looked good but choppy as fuck because my eyes are so used to 60FPS. It's also worth noting that the footage was heavily edited and not uninterrupted gameplay - so that mode could very well still have big drops they edited out. I *really* hope there's a performance mode, but this being a next-gen/PC exclusive I have my doubts - they'll go for that visual appeal first and foremost.
I think the fact that they target native 4k instead of 1440p 30 fps like the first UE5 demo or 1080p 30 fps like the Matrix demo shows me that they arent really going for visual appeal. They are wasting 2-4x more GPU power rendering pixels instead increasing visual fidelity. I think it's likely because they are targeting this to be a 1440p 60 fps game like Demon Souls, Ratchet, TLOU remake, Forza Horizon 5 and other native 4k 30 fps games that have 60 performance modes.

I think you will get a 60 fps performance mode for sure. It might be broken at launch like HFW's performance mode, but the delay gives me hope that it will ship in a good state.
 

DarkMage619

Member
In light of that Kojima announcement, let's take a moment to remember this early Digital Foundry gem:

Technology hasn't advanced in 10 years... Xbox already has a game with a cloud component, MS Flight Simulator. The general consensus is the game is amazing.
 

reksveks

Member
Lets bookmark this post and revisit this 3-4 years from now when they release the next Forza Horizon or Forza Motorsport. I think you will see that they will feature Flight Sim quality lighting, track side detail and car models.

Lets not forget, there is literally a 10x difference in tflops between the original xbox one specs and the xsx. 9.3x after the clockspeed boost. This is even before 50% IPC gains over the original GCN Xbox One GPU which should give it a raw 15x more GPU horsepower. Way bigger leap than 360 to Xbox One. It's not unfair to have higher next gen expectations especially now that they are no longer held back by the shitty Jaguar CPUs and slow HDD speeds. Looking at the Forza 7 to Forza 8 comparisons, the difference is very minor for a near 10x boost is GPU horsepower. I am surprised that a tech critic like DF is content with this upgrade. I legit think Forza Horizon 5 looks better than this game and its an open world last gen game being held back by the 1.3 tflops base Xbox one. TBH, this might be the same situation as TLOU remake on the PS5. It's next gen only, but they dont seem to be utilizing the next gen hardware as well as they can.

Lets bookmark it. Respectfully disagree with you about FH5 looking better than FM8 years, imo it just doesn’t.

Criterion released this footage a couple of years ago. This is realtime and what I expect from next gen only racing games.


I will say that they are rendering two static cars not doing much here.

But ehh, think we are at impasse.
 

Turk1993

Member
Lets bookmark this post and revisit this 3-4 years from now when they release the next Forza Horizon or Forza Motorsport. I think you will see that they will feature Flight Sim quality lighting, track side detail and car models.

Lets not forget, there is literally a 10x difference in tflops between the original xbox one specs and the xsx. 9.3x after the clockspeed boost. This is even before 50% IPC gains over the original GCN Xbox One GPU which should give it a raw 15x more GPU horsepower. Way bigger leap than 360 to Xbox One. It's not unfair to have higher next gen expectations especially now that they are no longer held back by the shitty Jaguar CPUs and slow HDD speeds. Looking at the Forza 7 to Forza 8 comparisons, the difference is very minor for a near 10x boost is GPU horsepower. I am surprised that a tech critic like DF is content with this upgrade. I legit think Forza Horizon 5 looks better than this game and its an open world last gen game being held back by the 1.3 tflops base Xbox one. TBH, this might be the same situation as TLOU remake on the PS5. It's next gen only, but they dont seem to be utilizing the next gen hardware as well as they can.

Criterion released this footage a couple of years ago. This is realtime and what I expect from next gen only racing games.

Nice just 2 static cars in a 2d static controlled lit environment is your expectation? What is so impressive about that, you can replicate that in AC with mods. And how is FM8 not impressive while showing huge leaps in quality in lighting, details, foliage while also having dynamic tod on all tracks at that quality. And don't start with DC also has tod this and that, you could also say that Test Drive Unlimted and GT6 also had tod and weather. Does that make DC not a 8th gen game because there where games a gen before that with the same features? No the quality was huge and it looked better than anything before while doing all that. The same goes for FM8, the overal quality is hugely improved while adding dynamic tod and weather at 60fps with in game RT reflections for the first time in a racing game! You need to realise how bigof a jump this is and far ahead of what we have. And look at NFS 2015 and NFS Payback, 2015 looks significantly better because it has static tod and weather while Payback looks worse because they add dynamic tod and removed the weather because of how heavy it is.
 
According to DF - Starfield looks pretty good and huge improvement in graphics compared to old Bethesda games.


PC Gamer PC Gamer where you at? Go F off with your stupid click bait articles.

Our Gods, DF, have spoken!
It being a huge improvement over their previous efforts is a given. Nobody in the right mind should have expected a similar level, tech wise, to Fallout 4 or Skyrim...It would have been suicidal for Bethesda otherwise.
 

Sosokrates

Gold Member
Seriously, who cares?

It's honestly tiring to see people waiting for the opinion of others to judge the quality of a game. Especially GRAPHICAL quality.
Starfield is not the most beautiful game ever created. So what? It will be pretty enough to be enjoyed.
Why do you care that he cares lol.

PC gamer is a sizable media magazine /site in which people listen to, its odd that you find issue with someone trying to show PC gamers incompetentcy by highlighting another media outlet that states there claims have no merit.
 
Myself, I see a stark difference between FM7 and FM. It's all in the eye of the beholder I guess.

IMO, the FM trailer was visually quite impressive, and with T10 you know performance is going to be consistent to say the least.

Technically speaking, the difference is considerable...but in terms of what the average Joe can perceive, it will not be that great of a delta; It so happens that the racing genre, more than any other type of games, is seriously plagued by the law of dimishing returns: The power needed to create a visual gulf, one that would be pretty undeniable to gamers and non-gamers alike, is not within reach today.
 
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MikeM

Member
I’m curious to know if Starfield is using mesh shaders. Could explain the detail if it does in fact push 60fps.
 
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