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Opinion News Hardware DF Direct: Xbox Series X Reaction - Our First Look At Next-Gen Hardware!

TeamGhobad

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No they don't lol, they say that what Phil said could mean both of those scenario.

If Xsx is 10tflops Phil was being truthful, if its 12tf Phil is also being truthful.
we 12 tflops of rdna is more than 2x the power of the X if that were the case phil would have obviously said that. enjoy your <10tflop gpu.
 

Sosokrates

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we 12 tflops of rdna is more than 2x the power of the X if that were the case phil would have obviously said that. enjoy your <10tflop gpu.
He said power, he could just be doing a tflop multiplier.
 

Fake

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I created a same thread. Already asked for close.

Still watching, but its a shame Rich is not in this video. He is on a vacation, but when he is back.
 

quest

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No they don't lol, they say that what Phil said could mean both of those scenario.

If Xsx is 10tflops Phil was being truthful, if its 12tf Phil is also being truthful.
Also the one guy points out that box was built to vent extreme heat that a 12tf chip would put out. They don't know but almost every legitimate insider says 12tf rdna and looking like Sony around 13tf.
 

Sosokrates

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not happening bro. 12 tflops RNDA with RT not happening.
Note he says "when we do the math"
I don't think he would say this if it was based on a in game performance metric.
You could be right though, a 5700xt power bracket GPU will require more power then the 1X's, so from a power perspective even 10 rdna tflops is pushing the boat out, we have to remember that the 5700xt beats the 14tfop vega 7 GPU in some tests. So technically one could say a 10tf rdna console is over 10x more powerful then the original xbox one.

Phil Spencer said:
We wanted to have a dramatic upgrade from the Xbox One base console. So when we do the math, we're over eight times the GPU power of the Xbox One, and two times what an Xbox One X is.
 
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Fake

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After playing Witcher 3 and Crash Team Racing on PS4 I highly agree with D dark10x about loading times.

edit: 'I'm OK if they stop supporting base Xbox'. Agree as well.
 
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CatLady

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He said power, he could just be doing a tflop multiplier.
That would be great and I hope you're right, but I think Phil would have come out and said 12 TF if true. I've keep wondering if & where 12 has actually been confirmed, because as DF said 12 RDNA is more than 2 times more powerful than the X1X.
 

Sycomunkee

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we 12 tflops of rdna is more than 2x the power of the X if that were the case phil would have obviously said that. enjoy your <10tflop gpu.
No it’s not. Efficiency does not dictate raw power. TFLOPS are TFLOPS just because 6 TFLOPS GCN under performs against 6 TFLOPS RDNA, does not mean it’s not 6 TFLOPS. They’re just doing more with it by being more efficient which I am sure they will detail later.
 
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DeepEnigma

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No it’s not. Efficiency does not dictate raw power. TFLOPS are TFLOPS just because 6 TFLOPS GCN under performs against 6 TFLOPS RDNA, does not mean it’s not 6 TFLOPS. They’re just doing more with it by being more efficient which I am sure they will detail later.
Pretty much this. More efficiency means you can exploit those FLOPS with less idle. Wider CU pipe, etc..

Best, but not perfect analogy I can think of right now, NASCAR. Restrictor plate racing vs non. Both are the same 740+hp engines, but one is restricted to throttle it down, where the other can take more advantage of that same horsepower.

AMD widened the pipe for more efficiency to exploit the power better.
 
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Gavin Stevens

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As I’ve said previously I’m not 100% sure MS are being truthful with their claim, and it may be worded in such a way that they can flip if PS5 is more powerful. “Fastest most powerful.” And “Fastest. Most powerful Xbox” are two totally different things.

But likewise, I also don’t see Sony not spinning it, because they are even worse at spin than MS.

Until we get hard facts, with hard numbers and hard details, we can’t say anything really other than guess. I mean “4x the power” is already a bullshit statement. So all this RDNA/Navi talk is bullshit at this stage.
 
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Sosokrates

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That would be great and I hope you're right, but I think Phil would have come out and said 12 TF if true. I've keep wondering if & where 12 has actually been confirmed, because as DF said 12 RDNA is more than 2 times more powerful than the X1X.
I think he's not announcing tflops yet, because he wants to see what PS5's are first.
I really want 12tf to, but I'm trying to get used to it being 10tf. 10TF is great but 12 would last longer and be better.
 
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Leonidas

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People shouldn't be caught up with the fact that these machines are probably in the 9-10 Tflop range. Tflops is meaningless comparing between different architectures. Everyone should forget about Tflops entirely.

The important thing is that the Series X has 2x the GPU performance of Xbox One X.

2x the GPU performance of Xbox One X is very impressive any way you slice it and Senua Saga looked insane.
 
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Insane Metal

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I'm with Alex I don't think it's 12TF. Unless AMD made huge changes to their architecture with 40%+ IPC improvement it's just not possible. Unless it's ok to have a console with 400W average power consumption.
 
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Spukc

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and 9.7 gamingconsole flops is like 20 pc flops. We don't even have that yet.
numbers yo
 
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ZywyPL

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12TF RDNA is equivalent to GCN 18TF, so just by common logic, if AMD really had such GPU on their shelves they would most likely would want to release it and wipe the floor with NV on the PC market, where the actual profit margins are high, instead of keeping it exclusive to consoles where they are sold dirty cheap.

And looking at PC, where all the FPS benchmarks clearly show that NV GPUs have "more processing power" (as Spencer called it) while having quite less TFlops on paper, would further suggest all those rumors actually meant GCN-equivalent TFlops.

And again, XBX does look bigger than X1X, but it's actually 7L vs what? 5-5.5L? The overall shape and proportions are clearly off, but the total capacity is not much bigger, which even further suggests there isn't really god knows how big APU compared to X1X.

So, if we do the math, like Spencer said, it would possibly mean we are looking at ~8TF RDNA, which given it's efficiency is the same as GCN 12TF, a.k.a. twice as much capabilities as X1X. And an 8TF RDNA is EXACTLY what RX5700 is. Now, the rumors/leak say about the PS5 having 40CU GPU, and that's RX5700XT right there, which would go in line with PS5 actually having more powerful GPU. And that's what I would call a "confirmed" info - we know AMD has such GPUs, many of us have them in their PCs, AMD is indeed able to provide Sony/MS with such solutions. And those GPUs are small, 251mm^2 to be exact


2x the GPU performance of Xbox One X is very impressive any way you slice it and Senua Saga looked insane.
Like every pre-render does. but that Halo 6 footage is a real deal, and that does look good.


2080 is 20-23% ahead of 5700 XT. Turing Tflops > Navi Tflops. 5700 XT is barely faster than a stock 2060 Super.
Not in Battlefield/Battlefront,, Forza Motorsport/Horizon, Gears 4/5, Doom/Wolfenstein, and all the other well optimized environments, it's literally just a couple of FPS difference, a 5700XT actually goes toe-to-toe with 2070 Super, literally a singel FPS difference between the two across the mentioned titles, if any. So on consoles, which are even more optimized than the PCs will ever be, the actual performance will be even greater. What can I say, if you wan't an NV GPU you're in a wrong neighborhood, it's like wanting to get a gun at sex shot or buy groceries at a car dealer. You wan't an NV GPu go get NV GPU, simple, no need to bitch about consoles hardware and putting in irrelevant PC benchmarks.
 
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FireFly

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2080 is 20-23% ahead of 5700 XT. Turing Tflops > Navi Tflops. 5700 XT is barely faster than a stock 2060 Super.
Ah, I shouldn't post while sick. I was thinking the 5700 XT was only 7.95 teraflops.

However, that makes the 12 TF figure more believable, since it would only be 23% more compute power.
 
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Sosokrates

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12TF RDNA is equivalent to GCN 18TF, so just by common logic, if AMD really had such GPU on their shelves they would most likely would want to release it and wipe the floor with NV on the PC market, where the actual profit margins are high, instead of keeping it exclusive to consoles where they are sold dirty cheap.

And looking at PC, where all the FPS benchmarks clearly show that NV GPUs have "more processing power" (as Spencer called it) while having quite less TFlops on paper, would further suggest all those rumors actually meant GCN-equivalent TFlops.

And again, XBX does look bigger than X1X, but it's actually 7L vs what? 5-5.5L? The overall shape and proportions are clearly off, but the total capacity is not much bigger, which even further suggests there isn't really god knows how big APU compared to X1X.

So, if we do the math, like Spencer said, it would possibly mean we are looking at ~8TF RDNA, which given it's efficiency is the same as GCN 12TF, a.k.a. twice as much capabilities as X1X. And an 8TF RDNA is EXACTLY what RX5700 is. Now, the rumors/leak say about the PS5 having 40CU GPU, and that's RX5700XT right there, which would go in line with PS5 actually having more powerful GPU. And that's what I would call a "confirmed" info - we know AMD has such GPUs, many of us have them in their PCs, AMD is indeed able to provide Sony/MS with such solutions. And those GPUs are small, 251mm^2 to be exact
AMD won't get to decide how powerful the gpus are on PS5 and XsX.
Sony + ms are paying amd for the design, they get to choose how many cu's, features and clock speed the GPU will have.
They then take there design and pay a fabbing company that makes cpus + gpus to manufacture millions of there chips.

AMD's business is mainly from consoles, the consoles dictate where there PC products will go.
If ps5 + XsX have 12tf rdna gpus @ $499, they will probably cost $349/99 for the equivalent pc graphics card.
 

TeamGhobad

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12TF RDNA is equivalent to GCN 18TF, so just by common logic, if AMD really had such GPU on their shelves they would most likely would want to release it and wipe the floor with NV on the PC market, where the actual profit margins are high, instead of keeping it exclusive to consoles where they are sold dirty cheap.

And looking at PC, where all the FPS benchmarks clearly show that NV GPUs have "more processing power" (as Spencer called it) while having quite less TFlops on paper, would further suggest all those rumors actually meant GCN-equivalent TFlops.

And again, XBX does look bigger than X1X, but it's actually 7L vs what? 5-5.5L? The overall shape and proportions are clearly off, but the total capacity is not much bigger, which even further suggests there isn't really god knows how big APU compared to X1X.

So, if we do the math, like Spencer said, it would possibly mean we are looking at ~8TF RDNA, which given it's efficiency is the same as GCN 12TF, a.k.a. twice as much capabilities as X1X. And an 8TF RDNA is EXACTLY what RX5700 is. Now, the rumors/leak say about the PS5 having 40CU GPU, and that's RX5700XT right there, which would go in line with PS5 actually having more powerful GPU. And that's what I would call a "confirmed" info - we know AMD has such GPUs, many of us have them in their PCs, AMD is indeed able to provide Sony/MS with such solutions. And those GPUs are small, 251mm^2 to be exact
the only thing i could add to this, you are right btw is that these GPU's have RT tech so its not exactly 5700xt variants they can't be. and i think MS verified RDNA 2.0. But yes we are looking at 9tflop gpus. not 12 rdna tflops.
 
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Gavin Stevens

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The thing that gets me thinking is, this is MS, and their hardware team is absolutely on point. Sure you can say a lot about their gaming division, or their OS, but hardware? The X was utterly perfect in build.

Now, Sony? They aren’t anywhere near on par with them. Not even close. We can sit and argue about the OD and the games and even the look of the console, but hardware Sony has never been close. Sure the PS4 didn’t make the same mistake MS made, but from a purely hardware point of view, the S is spot on. The only reason it gets shit on is because... well, the obvious issue the S has versus the PS4.

So this is where I get a little puzzled. People honestly not only expect the PS5 to be faster, but also smaller? I just don’t see it.

I can see the Xbox taking a very slight lead over the PS5 “overall”, nothing meaningful, and possibly looking more traditional in terms of form factor. But beating the SX by a wide margin...?

I don’t see it myself, personally. But I also couldn’t say with certainty that everything I just said was utter tripe. First time I’ve felt so on the fence about it all.

MS going first with this stuff means Sony have all the time in the world to catch up, and improve, if they need to. But then that leaves MS at a disadvantage because they can’t just change it all so quickly.

It’s all very interesting regardless, and I’ll be pre-ordering BOTH machines.
 

teh_pwn

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2080 is 20-23% ahead of 5700 XT. Turing Tflops > Navi Tflops. 5700 XT is barely faster than a stock 2060 Super.

My 1080 ti is probably the longest lasting GPU that keeps delivering high end. RDR2 was the first game to really show the GPUs age because it optimized newer architectures and pushed effects to the extreme.
 

teh_pwn

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The thing that gets me thinking is, this is MS, and their hardware team is absolutely on point. Sure you can say a lot about their gaming division, or their OS, but hardware? The X was utterly perfect in build.

Now, Sony? They aren’t anywhere near on par with them. Not even close. We can sit and argue about the OD and the games and even the look of the console, but hardware Sony has never been close. Sure the PS4 didn’t make the same mistake MS made, but from a purely hardware point of view, the S is spot on. The only reason it gets shit on is because... well, the obvious issue the S has versus the PS4.

So this is where I get a little puzzled. People honestly not only expect the PS5 to be faster, but also smaller? I just don’t see it.

I can see the Xbox taking a very slight lead over the PS5 “overall”, nothing meaningful, and possibly looking more traditional in terms of form factor. But beating the SX by a wide margin...?

I don’t see it myself, personally. But I also couldn’t say with certainty that everything I just said was utter tripe. First time I’ve felt so on the fence about it all.

MS going first with this stuff means Sony have all the time in the world to catch up, and improve, if they need to. But then that leaves MS at a disadvantage because they can’t just change it all so quickly.

It’s all very interesting regardless, and I’ll be pre-ordering BOTH machines.
You're omitting how underpowered the original Xbox One is. Playstation 4 was underwhelming as a PC gamer but it was the optimal specs for a lower cost. But Playstation 3 was a disaster.

You really have to analyze specs on a per case basis not on a brand basis.
 

Leonidas

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Not in Battlefield/Battlefront,, Forza Motorsport/Horizon, Gears 4/5, Doom/Wolfenstein, and all the other well optimized environments, it's literally just a couple of FPS difference, a 5700XT actually goes toe-to-toe with 2070 Super, literally a singel FPS difference between the two across the mentioned titles, if any. So on consoles, which are even more optimized than the PCs will ever be, the actual performance will be even greater. What can I say, if you wan't an NV GPU you're in a wrong neighborhood, it's like wanting to get a gun at sex shot or buy groceries at a car dealer. You wan't an NV GPu go get NV GPU, simple, no need to bitch about consoles hardware and putting in irrelevant PC benchmarks.
AMD is faster on some games, but on average 2080 is 20+% faster and 2070 Super is 10+% faster even in at least one of the games you just cherry picked. That's not insignificant.

What about BFV, Control, Tomb Raider and Metro Exodus with DXR enabled and all the upcoming DXR games thanks to consoles having hardware RT support?

Sadly anyone unfortunate enough to buy an RX 5700 series GPU will be forced to buy another $350+ GPU if they wanted to experience next-gen Ray Tracing effects in their games :lollipop_smiling_face_eyes:

I'll believe the fabled console optimizations when I see it. Console hardware today is just PC hardware. Digital Foundry did tons of testing on this which pretty much disproved console optomizations...
 
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ZywyPL

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MS going first with this stuff means Sony have all the time in the world to catch up, and improve, if they need to. But then that leaves MS at a disadvantage because they can’t just change it all so quickly.
Both consoles will be released a year from now, so basically in best case scenario half a year from now the consoles will have to finalized to be showed with running games, not to mention get on the production line, and you say Sony will have all the time to all of a sudden change what they have been working for the past couple of years? While MS on the other hand, with the same given time won't be able to do a thing because they showed just the case and the name? Sorry but nothing makes sense here.
 

Gavin Stevens

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Both consoles will be released a year from now, so basically in best case scenario half a year from now the consoles will have to finalized to be showed with running games, not to mention get on the production line, and you say Sony will have all the time to all of a sudden change what they have been working for the past couple of years? While MS on the other hand, with the same given time won't be able to do a thing because they showed just the case and the name? Sorry but nothing makes sense here.
No not at all. I’m saying Ms show now, Sony react, but they react in their own time, likely January. But by that point, it’s VERY late for MS to be making big changes. They can likely do some smaller things like increase ram etc, like they have done before. But no major changes.

Don’t forget MS are, it looks like, releasing sooner. Sony look like a December release, and I’m sure Xbox will beat them by a good few months.

Also, all pulled out of my arse facts, just observations.
 

ZywyPL

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Don’t forget MS are, it looks like, releasing sooner. Sony look like a December release, and I’m sure Xbox will beat them by a good few months.
Next XB is confirmed by Spencer himself to arrive on holiday season 2020, that would mean the consoles will go toe-to-toe.
 

Sosokrates

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Also if Phil was strickly talking about performance, 10 rdna tflops would not be correct.


As you can see the 7.95tflop RX5700 is almost double the performance of a rx580, so about an 8-8.5 rdna tflop GPU would actually be double the performance of and Xbox one x gpu!
 
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pawel86ck

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Note he says "when we do the math"
I don't think he would say this if it was based on a in game performance metric.
That line alone should tell people Phil was talking about TFLOPS metric, because how people want to measure architecture differences? Performance related to architecture gains will look different in different games and different benchmark scenarios.

Also the numbers Phil has provided will not add up if we will hypothetically consider he was thinking about general performance. People are forgetting xbox one and xbox x were using different GPU architectures. You need only 8TF Navi architecture in order to match 8x xbox one (old first gen GCN architecture) game performance, but because xbox x has already improved architecture compared to standard xbox one (xbox x GPU is polaris on steroids) then 8TF Navi will no longer provide 2x xbox x GPU results. You need more than 8TF Navi in order to match 2x xbox x

Digital foundry has compared in their recent video 5700XT to standard RX 580, and this nearly 10TF Navi GPU can almost provide 2x better results compared to RX580 (it depends on the game). But the thing is xbox x GPU is not using standard RX580. Just for comparison, RX 580 runs RDR2 at around 20fps, while xbox x thanks to it's GPU customizations run the same game with similar settings at solid 30fps (average fps must be higher than that, because otheriwse game will dip below 30fps frequently). Also xbox x comparison with PS4P is very interesting, because xbox x with just 40% TFLOPS more can render 2x as many pixels, although both GPU's are based on polaris architecture. Basically speaking MS engineers have improved polaris architecture to the point where comparisons to standard RX 580 are no longer possible.

Because xbox x GPU is faster than standard RX580, then RX5700 XT gains would look even less impressive than Digital Foundry material shows. So we need over 10TF Navi to match 2x xbox x, and only 8TF Navi to match 8x standard xbox one. These numbers reflect different level of performance, so I dont believe Phil would use that performance metric as reference.

However if we consider Phil was refering only to TFLOPS metric, then everything fits perfectly. 2x times xbox x GPU (6TF) power is 12TF, while 8x xbox one s (1.4TF) is 11.2TF, so GPU with 12TF would be over 8x times more powerful than xbox one, exactly like Phil has said. If we will add to that leaks (especially windows central leak, because it's reliable site after all) then I'm totally certain MS really aim at 12TF Navi. Yes, it's very fast GPU, but if MS wants to launch 2 different consoles, then we can assume more expensive SKU will be build with enthusiasts in mind, therefore 12TF is not surprising.
 
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Dee Dah Dave

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I think the existence of Lockhart is the biggest clue that it will be 12TF RDNA

Firstly, having a budget model allows them to push high with the premium one

Secondly, I don’t believe for a minute that the Lockhart is only 4TF GCN. But a 4TF RDNA at 1080p just about makes sense for next gen. If the Lockhart figure is RDNA then so will be the Anaconda.
 

Sosokrates

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I've noticed some people saying,

"if XSX is 12 rdna tflops, which is 16-18 GCN tflops why wouldn't Phil say its 3x the 1x power?"

The reason he may not of said "3x" is because for most people that would mean 18tflops.
 

Sosokrates

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I honestly blame a lot of the confusion on the media.
A lot of the media are actually not that knowledgeable when it comes to the nitty gritty technology, they don't understand the difference between Navi + GCN tflops so they put out there incorrect understanding of it and therefore put out false info.
Digital Foundry and a few other smaller media channels are very good with there knowledge, but the bigger ones like gamespot, ign, kinda funny etc are basically casuals who play games a lot and have a english/journalism credentials. It's pretty embarrassing that media professionals have less technical understanding then your average neogaf poster.
 
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