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[DF] Inside Doom Eternal's Next-Gen Upgrade: The id Software Technology Breakdown

Feb 3, 2020
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1:32 - Ray Tracing Reflections
5:18 - Revisiting the Doom Eternal game assets again
7:58 - Wolfenstein: Youngblood vs Doom Eternal Ray Tracing reflection
10:15 - Manage particles system with Ray Tracing
13:05 - BVH performance on consoles
14:35 - Doom Eternal's Ray Tracing not on Xbox Series S
17:00 - VRS tier 2 on Xbox Series X|S
20:00 - Next-gen consoles improvements for 120fps games
22:55 - Is 120fps with ray tracing possible on next-gen consoles?
24:50 - 120fps on future next-gen games
28:30 - NVIDIA DLSS for PC version with dynamic resolution
32:00 - ID software results overall on Doom 2016 and Doom Eternal
34:15 - Technologies for future games (RTGI, Machine/Deep Learning)
37:06 - Expectations about Ray Tracing on Consoles
38:45 - Technology Highlights for Doom Eternal
 
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elliot5

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Love this stuff. Lot of details talked about showing how impressive their RT implementation is. Especially at 60 fps. It's not a drastic change like in Metro visually compared to their previous version, but the little details and issues they tackled is very impressive. id are masters of their craft.

Would love to see an example of the FULL RT only no Rasterization thing they did at the beginning of putting in RT into id tech for this game, even if it ran like shit. Would be cool to see a screenshot.
 
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CuteFaceJay

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Honestly some of these questions ' Why isn't Ray tracing on the "Crap xbox system" '

You know why... Muppet with softball questions.
 

Dr.Morris79

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Well i'm not going to lie, i've been back on Doom eternal on the series X and got up to destroying some big gore nest thing, I beat it but my fucking god, that was utter shite, it turned into some of the most bollocks platforming horse shit I think i've ever played in a modern game..

What the fuck was THAT? That aint Doom! This isnt Doom, who the fuck thinks this is Doom? Doesnt matter how pretty it looks, Doom it aint

It made me actually laugh out loud..




Carry on.
 

DJ Shalad

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doom pc GIF


.. this ain´t doom!

Doom 2016 and Doom Eternal are way more comparable to Quake 1 and 2 not Doom, so I agree that these games aren't really like doom...
Ouffff GIF by memecandy


Name it Quake Eternal then? But Quake has no punch ...

... but that's good.
scared homer simpson GIF
 
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01011001

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Well i'm not going to lie, i've been back on Doom eternal on the series X and got up to destroying some big gore nest thing, I beat it but my fucking god, that was utter shite, it turned into some of the most bollocks platforming horse shit I think i've ever played in a modern game..

What the fuck was THAT? That aint Doom! This isnt Doom, who the fuck thinks this is Doom? Doesnt matter how pretty it looks, Doom it aint

It made me actually laugh out loud..




Carry on.

I will never understand why people have issues with platforming sections in shooters... that was a design staple of 90s style shooters, which Doom Eternal tries to emulate to a degree.

Doom 2016 and Doom Eternal are way more comparable to Quake 1 and 2 not Doom, so I agree that these games aren't really like doom... but that's good. the Doom formula has reached its limit with Doom 2 and Doom 64, you can't really evolve that without changing it.

if you don't do that you would simply release the same game over and over
 
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Dr.Morris79

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I will never understand why people have issues with platforming sections in shooters... that was a design staple of 90s style shooters, which Doom Eternal tries to emulate to a degree.

Doom 2016 and Doom Eternal are was more comparable to Quake 1 and 2 not Doom, so I agree that these games aren't really like doom... but that's good. the Doom formula has reached its limit with Doom 2 and Doom 64, you can't really evolve that without changing it.

if you don't do that you would simply release the same game over and over
Trust me, you can.

If they could release Brutal Doom on consoles i'd wager it would sell more than Eternal, with ease.

The thing is too, no one was asking ID to reinvent the wheel and no one wanted Doom to be Quake. I just cannot, for the life of me, work out why Doom turned into this? Couldnt they have just made a new Quake?

I get people like this style and most seem to love it but to my old arse, Doom it aint.

I'll still complete the shite thing though, I at least owe it to my wallet.
 

01011001

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Trust me, you can.

If they could release Brutal Doom on consoles i'd wager it would sell more than Eternal, with ease.

The thing is too, no one was asking ID to reinvent the wheel and no one wanted Doom to be Quake. I just cannot, for the life of me, work out why Doom turned into this? Couldnt they have just made a new Quake?

I get people like this style and most seem to love it but to my old arse, Doom it aint.

I'll still complete the shite thing though, I at least owe it to my wallet.

Doom 1 and 2 are in very special circumstances which makes it hard to make a modern version without changing a lot.

first of all, these game are technically 2D and the typical gameplay was dictated by their 2D engine. even doing something as simple has implementing a Jump button changes whe whole feel of it.

and Quake basically was the successor to Doom so it's only natural to go from there and make a modern version of a late 90s shooter with some modern elements.
 

Negotiator101

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Only on Xbox and PC unfortunately for future projects, it's a shame as this engine is a work of art.
 

Exanthus

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Boom!
I wish DF could do these more often... Then the other thread might be quieter lol.
 

Panajev2001a

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Not really unfortunate. Fewer platforms means better optimizations for the remaining platforms.

Finally we agree on having a digital only reduced storage $349-399 XSX instead of the current XSS as being the right call and something that would have improved / is holding back the XSX version for the console target of the engine (one less platform to target ;)).
 

Riky

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These interviews are a great insight, good to see developer confirm that Tier 2 VRS gives a better image quality than just scaling down to a lower resolution and he wishes all platforms supported it.
Also interesting about VRR and that are playing around with unlocked modes with VRR, Microsoft have already confirmed this with Flight Simulator and I hope they do more of this. Getting an up to 120fps Ray Traced mode would be amazing I wonder how far the framerate goes at the moment if unlocked.
Having this sort of engine in a first party studio is going to be a big benefit.
 

DarkMage619

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Finally we agree on having a digital only reduced storage $349-399 XSX instead of the current XSS as being the right call and something that would have improved / is holding back the XSX version for the console target of the engine (one less platform to target ;)).
Cute but no. The XSS' development is covered by the Xbox GDK. You get three versions of games when you develop on the Xbox platform. There is no PlayStation version created when that GDK is used. Amazingly the lowly XSS has RDNA 2 features even the PS5 lacks. In addition the XSS wasn't created for developers it was created for casual gaming customers and people on a budget. It will ALWAYS be cheaper to produce and sell than any digital XSX or PlayStation for that matter.

If recent games are any indication it's the XSS version of games that have been compromised NOT the XSX and certainly not PC. This is the benefit of the XSS having the exact same feature set as the XSX. Lower graphical settings are perfectly fine seeing that XSS customers aren't looking for the highest fidelity games in the first place. The XSS might not be a platform YOU want but it is a perfect device for its target audience. There is no need to hate something just because it isn't for you man. 😎

I'm excited to see what ID can do as a 1st party MS developer. I hope their engines can be used by other MS 1st party studios as well.
 

dcmk7

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Amazingly the lowly XSS has RDNA 2 features even the PS5 lacks. In addition the XSS wasn't created for developers it was created for casual gaming customers and people on a budget.
Have you finally accepted that developers don't like it then?

If so, it's about time! After all those quotes that you didn't believe (you even called one studio lazy and called for some employees to be reprimanded for being dissenting) but it's good to see you have changed your tune now that a MS first party have been forced to remove RT mode due to the technical limitations.
 

reksveks

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Just my one post cause this thread is trending to some console war adjacent argument.

Software devs don't like any hardware constraints, they including those IDtech also disliked the fact that ram capacity didn't increase in the current gen.
 
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scydrex

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Amazingly the lowly XSS has RDNA 2 features even the PS5 lacks.

Can Sony say we don't what those features because we will create our own solution or techniques for something like VRS2? Or it has to be they take it or not? If no then those features are completely out of the picture for the PS5 and Sony can't create their own solutions?
 
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JohnnyFootball

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I will never understand why people have issues with platforming sections in shooters... that was a design staple of 90s style shooters, which Doom Eternal tries to emulate to a degree.

Doom 2016 and Doom Eternal are way more comparable to Quake 1 and 2 not Doom, so I agree that these games aren't really like doom... but that's good. the Doom formula has reached its limit with Doom 2 and Doom 64, you can't really evolve that without changing it.

if you don't do that you would simply release the same game over and over
Like what?! None of the Doom game had them. Duke Nukem didn't have them. Quake 1 and 2 didn't have them. Dark Forces didn't have them. Only really Half-Life had them in Xen section and they weren't really platforming as they didn't require precision.

You take out those FPS, you're not really left with much. Certainly not enough to call them a "design staple"
 

dcmk7

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Can Sony say we don't what those features because we will create or own solution or techniques for something like VRS2? Or it has to be they take it or not? If no then those features are completely out of the picture for the PS5 and Sony can't create their own solutions?
They customised it for their own purposes. Still a bit of mystery surrounding it all.

Some of the customisations they have made will make it's way into RDNA3, from what's been reported, only time will tell if that's true or not.
 

scydrex

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They customised it for their own purposes. Still a bit of mystery surrounding it all.

Some of the customisations they have made will make it's way into RDNA3, from what's been reported, only time will tell if that's true or not.

I think is contrary of what Sony did with the PS5 with all the listening to devs and choose to leave VRS and other features and not do something of their own. I mean telling AMD we don't want that and leave it like that. We know already that the PS5 don't have VRS2 and some features it's confirmed but Xbox fan here act like the PS5 don't have those features at all even customized solutions from Sony. They act like the know for sure the PS5 don't have anything similar to those features or techniques. That's is why I asked if Sony can't do what i said. We don't want those because we will make or create or own techniques or features.
 
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01011001

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Like what?! None of the Doom game had them. Duke Nukem didn't have them. Quake 1 and 2 didn't have them. Dark Forces didn't have them. Only really Half-Life had them in Xen section and they weren't really platforming as they didn't require precision.

You take out those FPS, you're not really left with much. Certainly not enough to call them a "design staple"

Duke Nukem 3D had lots of platforming, especially if you wanted to find all the secrets.

of course given the technical limitations it wasn't as involved and extensive as in Doom Eternal but it was there.

Quake 2 was similar with platforming to reach hidden items.

then stuff like the Turok games had lots of platforming, and as you said Half Life 1.

Doom Eternal simply went from there and made it more of a fully developed part of the gameplay instead of using the simple jumping from one platform to the next you'd find in 90s shooters.
 

Riky

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I think is contrary of what Sony did with the PS5 with all the listening to devs and choose to leave VRS and other features and not do something of their own. I mean telling AMD we don't want that and leave it like that. We know already that the PS5 don't have VRS2 and some features it's confirmed but Xbox fan here act like the PS5 don't have those features at all even customized solutions from Sony. They act like the know for sure the PS5 don't have anything similar to those features or techniques. That's is why I asked if Sony can't do what i said. We don't want those because we will make or create or own techniques or features.

They used a software emulated version of the inferior Tier 1 VRS in Metro, Devs stated that and DF covered it. If there was any hardware support for something similar I'm sure id would have used it as they clearly state they wanted it in all versions in this interview.
 

DarkMage619

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Have you finally accepted that developers don't like it then?

If so, it's about time! After all those quotes that you didn't believe (you even called one studio lazy and called for some employees to be reprimanded for being dissenting) but it's good to see you have changed your tune now that a MS first party have been forced to remove RT mode due to the technical limitations.
I have always said the XSS was not designed for developers. I have said numerous times that it is for gamers on a budget and people not concerned about graphical fidelity. Nothing in my post contradicts that point. Your comments about 'laziness' continue
to be utter and complete nonsense.

RT is a graphical feature whose removal does not change the core experience of Doom Eternal seeing how the game was just fine BEFORE the RT patch. What IS part of that core experience is framerate and low and behold the cheapest console held the highest standard has a 120fps mode just like the XSX. Amazing technology indeed and proving yet again the XSS offers the best bang for your buck.

Can Sony say we don't what those features because we will create our own solution or techniques for something like VRS2? Or it has to be they take it or not? If no then those features are completely out of the picture for the PS5 and Sony can't create their own solutions?
Sony can ask for whatever they want. In the end the features it is missing would require additional development time that will no longer be a concern for ID. Now that time can be spent making sure the XSX|S are even better optimized and I'm looking forward to seeing the results.
 

kikkis

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I have always said the XSS was not designed for developers. I have said numerous times that it is for gamers on a budget and people not concerned about graphical fidelity. Nothing in my post contradicts that point. Your comments about 'laziness' continue
to be utter and complete nonsens

Problem with xss is lack of vram and the fact that ps5 games onwards most likely run 1080p with dlss equivalent so that leaves xss to run with sub 720p resolutuon
 

JohnnyFootball

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Duke Nukem 3D had lots of platforming, especially if you wanted to find all the secrets.

of course given the technical limitations it wasn't as involved and extensive as in Doom Eternal but it was there.

Quake 2 was similar with platforming to reach hidden items.

then stuff like the Turok games had lots of platforming, and as you said Half Life 1.

Doom Eternal simply went from there and made it more of a fully developed part of the gameplay instead of using the simple jumping from one platform to the next you'd find in 90s shooters.
Does jumping from various spots REALLY count as platforming? Almost none of that required any sort of real precision. Maybe we define platforming as different things. It was hardly a "staple"
 
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dcmk7

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Your comments about 'laziness' continue
to be utter and complete nonsense
Nonsense?

No you clearly said that.

That is why many developers drop the feature. It's not that it can't do it, it's that some developers don't want to take the time to make it work.

Don't rewrite history.

RT is a graphical feature whose removal does not change the core experience of Doom Eternal
RT is a next gen feature which wasn't possible on last generation consoles. Only possible of this new generation of consoles.

It's not possible on the PS4, X1X, Nintendo Switch or XSS. Because of the technical limitations.

If XSS could handle it, it would have it.
 
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it is possible, although with sacrifices

metro exodus, wd legion are proof of it

dev himself said that they found the sacrifice to be too much to enable RT. there's gotta be a balance

every dev will have varying opinions. 4a got away with 512-900p dynamic res because they had to, otherwise it would leave a bad impression on series s overall (if the nextgen rt exodus was only exclusive to xsx and ps5)

i believe same compromise could've been used to reduce ram requirements and push rt on series s, but it seems like billy khan and his team decided against it

remember that this person is one of the developers that said the ram was a potential limitation, although he later deleted his tweet

maybe their engine do really need extra vram, i don't know about that. DF claims that they had to set textures to lowest possible streaming option for RT to work properly on rtx 2060 (6 gb vram) and even then it had some troubles, according to them. then again, consoles are more optimized and there are more knobs that can be turned around to lower vram consumption (after all, RDR 2 and HZD runs perfect on both PS4 with native textures, but both ports use bloated VRAM on PC. maybe doom eternal is also using bloated VRAM on PC, we may not know)

all in all, i really think they could've snucked in RT for Doom Eternal. They just didn't want to drop the resolution, it seems like
 
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01011001

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Does jumping from various spots REALLY count as platforming? Almost none of that required any sort of real precision. Maybe we define platforming as different things. It was hardly a "staple"

there were some tricky jumps in these games, it wasn't used to block your way through the level, it was used to do some tricky optional side stuff in Duke 3D

in Turok tho there were actual platforming segments for example, and Half Life also had many
 
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DarkMage619

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Problem with xss is lack of vram and the fact that ps5 games onwards most likely run 1080p with dlss equivalent so that leaves xss to run with sub 720p resolutuon
The XSS has sampler feedback streaming. This is another feature that appears to be missing from the PS5. This feature will significantly improve memory management on Xbox consoles. This feature does tend to require a developer to create their graphics pipeline with the feature in mind so with the case of ID they would have no issue using that feature especially since they don't need to consider the PS5 as a development platform at all.

Nonsense?

No you clearly said that.



Don't rewrite history.


RT is a next gen feature which wasn't possible on last generation consoles. Only possible of this new generation of consoles.

It's not possible on the PS4, X1X, Nintendo Switch or XSS. Because of the technical limitations.

If XSS could handle it, it would have it.
Are you OK? You seem to have an issue with English. Where in your quote did I use the term 'lazy' sir? Lazy has a specific meaning if I meant lazy I would have used that word. You continue to live in an alternative reality. Maybe you need some rest.

With regard to the XSS there is already proof the XSS can use RT if a developer is willing to take the time to implement it. If they don't think it would be worth doing they can always drop the feature just like they use lower resolution LODs, and shorter draw distances. As I've said RT wasn't originally in this game so it's ridiculous to believe that the XSS not having it is significant.

The XSS is a lower end budget device although I see you have struggled mightily to understand that very basic point. It's the cheapest current gen device with features more expensive consoles lack. Best bank for your buck no doubt. You are probably better off just moving on seeing how you seem incapable of understanding.
 

mrBarrelNut

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~9% in Gears 5 with 5120x2160 resolution and everything on Ultra

Coalition says to have following saving using different VRS settings on two graphics modes, Ultra & Insane (PC, 6900XT)

Graphics ModeVRS QualityVRS BalancedVRS Performance
Ultra8%10%12%
Insane14%15%20%

Insane mode has heavier shaders so it has more substantial savings. XSX version of Gears 5 uses Insane settings and VRS Quality mode AFAIK.
 

dcmk7

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Are you OK? You seem to have an issue with English. Where in your quote did I use the term 'lazy' sir? Lazy has a specific meaning if I meant lazy I would have used that word. You continue to live in an alternative reality. Maybe you need some rest.

:messenger_tears_of_joy:

You've literally written they couldn't be bothered to dedicate the time to implement a feature. Therefore implying they are lazy.

What is wrong with you? You're unable to actually see that??

Have more respect for developers please sir.

XSS can use RT if a developer is willing to take the time to implement it.

So you're saying a first party studio is unwilling to spend the time for MS hardware to look the very best it can?

That's a bad sign.
 
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DarkMage619

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:messenger_tears_of_joy:

You've literally written they couldn't be bothered to dedicate the time to implement a feature. Therefore implying they are lazy.

What is wrong with you? You're unable to actually see that??

Have more respect for developers please sir.
Sounds like you are listening to the voices in your head again man. You can't quote me calling anyone lazy because it never happened. You really should consider taking a break or something.

Your commentary is derailing the topic so I'll simply say this: ID won't have to worry about any platforms but Xbox and PC. That is great for Xbox customers and ID because they will be able to focus on consoles that offers the full suite of RDNA 2 features and they won't have to be distracted by other platforms where they will have to implement workarounds to get certain things to work. I fully expect to see some amazing things especially with MS backing them. It is a great time to be an Xbox fan. 😁
 

dcmk7

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Sounds like you are listening to the voices in your head again man. You can't quote me calling anyone lazy because it never happened. You really should consider taking a break or something.

Maybe Google the definition of lazy. And then you will understand.

For the record you don't have to actually write 'lazy' to imply someone is lazy man :messenger_tears_of_joy: . Are you for real? What's up with you.

Reminder of what you said..

That is why many developers drop the feature. It's not that it can't do it, it's that some developers don't want to take the time to make it work.

Implied they can't be bothered. Hence lazy.

Show more respect to developers man. Can do without your ignorant comments. I personally want to see more experts on this forum, and comments like this, can't imagine it helps.

ID won't have to worry about any platforms but Xbox and PC.
They should be focussing on that as soon as they were taken over.

But facts remain: XSS is without raytracing. Even though it's a first party studio, and should be priorising Series consoles they are unable to get around its technical limitations. Similar to how the last gen consoles are unable to run RT as well as Nintendo Switch. Technically limitations preventing it Otherwise they all would have it.
 
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DarkMage619

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Maybe Google the definition of lazy. And then you will understand.

For the record you don't have to actually write 'lazy' to imply someone is lazy man :messenger_tears_of_joy: . Are you for real? What's up with you.

Reminder of what you said..



Implied they can't be bothered. Hence lazy.

Show more respect to developers man. Can do without your ignorant comments. I personally want to see more experts on this forum, and comments like this, can't imagine it helps.
I never said lazy. If I meant lazy I would have said lazy. Also this still has nothing to do with the topic.

You excited about IDtech on Xbox platforms? What first party Xbox studios would you like to see use IDtech?
 

dcmk7

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I never said lazy. If I meant lazy I would have said lazy. Also this still has nothing to do with the topic.

You excited about IDtech on Xbox platforms? What first party Xbox studios would you like to see use IDtech?
Keep protesting man, I'm sure that will change what you said :messenger_tears_of_joy: .

You said can't be arsed to take the time, in what world does that not equate to lazy exactly? Again this is what you wrote.

That is why many developers drop the feature. It's not that it can't do it, it's that some developers don't want to take the time to make it work.

Just accept made a mistake and move on. Like the mistake you made when defending price hikes and saying every PS5 made had coil whine.

As for rest of post, I love id Software can't wait to see what they make next. I have an Xbox Series X, so I'll be able to play the uncompromised edition day one.
I'm slightly reassured and glad to see MS first party studios can totally drop core features to make the XSX version better.

Feel slightly bad that XSS have been mis-marketed. I'm sure most would have expected RT from first party studios as a given.
 
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M1chl

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Performance VRS



Balanced or Quality VRS (I'm not sure :messenger_grinning_smiling: )



Off




Performance make it look like PS1 game in places, something that can be seen in Doom. Devs are quite aggressive with this shit.
Balance quality looks pretty good I would say, I will later do screen from Gears 5 XSX to check the difference : ) Better than DF this stuff.
 
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