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DF- Microsoft will close out June without a big Xbox 20/20 moment, Series S console reveal currently set for August

Ar¢tos

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You've kind of jokingly confirmed your own suspicion. Dev confirmed that the MS GDK includes scalability from the XSX down. Very little work on the Dev side as MS gives the tools to begin work on the XSX then scale down to lower specs. Should be even easier now that the XSS is rumored to have the EXACT same CPU as the XSX. A bit less ram and CU's leaving me to suspect that it's an all digital "gamepass box" if you will
But the ram makes a difference. Games are made with x1 and x1x mode, how is game that uses 10gb ram in x1x mode going to run in BC on a machine with 7.5gb?
Not everything scales in a linear way.
 
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Dolomite

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But the ram makes a difference. Games are made with x1 and x1x mode, how is game that uses 10gb ram in x1x mode going to run in BC on a machine with 7.5gb?
Not everything scales in a linear way.
I hear what you're saying, and that difference can't be explained away. However The XVA(available on both skus) maps large portions of the entire game to the system (hence the 100 Gigs of "instant data" rumor). Ram will always be important, but games are being designed differently this gen from the PS5 to to PCs. Ram is important, but there's a reason why all we hears is SSD, SSD ,SSD, GPU, RDNA2, Hardware decicated RT cores, Machine learning, and more SSD.

I won't talk your ear off pretending to understand the ins and out of a system 6 months away from launch like people hanging on Cerny's Every word, but from what this Dev says around 12:15-13:20 sums up what I've Suspected.

The two systems are Developed in parralell through a joint GDK. What cantt be done in one system (let's say extreme LOD, true 4K Or full Ray tracing) will be done to the best of what's available for the lesser. (More pop ins, checkerboarding 4K ala PS4 pro, and select RT).
Also every Dev doesn't have to commit to supporting last gen. The medium and scorn are already confirmed as Next Gen only
 
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The Alien

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It's amazing that Microsoft thinks that the announcement of a Series S is something anyone would be excited about.

It's more like announcing that a family member has terminal cancer.
Cancer jokes. They're ALWAYS funny. 😐

Douchey comments aside, I predict the Series S will move a ton of units...especially during the holidays.
 
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martino

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But the ram makes a difference. Games are made with x1 and x1x mode, how is game that uses 10gb ram in x1x mode going to run in BC on a machine with 7.5gb?
Not everything scales in a linear way.
that's a very good question that need to be addressed
 
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Omeggos

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I just hope they come to their bloody senses and ditch the retarded idea of a handicapped console before then.
This level of thinking is like being mad pc devs make games that scale down to potato level pc’s.

From the leaks it sounds like it’s still a competent machine, just expect more 1080p titles rather than 4k. Its pretty clear at this point that the SX is definitely being aimed more at the enthusiasts, let the casuals enjoy their $299-399 version of the system.
 
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mckmas8808

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TBH I'm not terribly interested in Series S either (as a purchase; as a curiosity to discuss however it's quite interesting), just XSX and PS5. I kind of hope Series S (at least for this year) is just a ruse and they're 100% about XSX for launch.

That's the one they've built all the goodwill and momentum with, not Series S. Plus no Series S for a while means they can maximize the production pipeline for Series X which is what the vast majority of hardcore/core gamers (who make up the majority of early console purchasers) will gravitate to, anyway.

C'mon Microsoft, stick the landing!
Being that the PS5 all digital is "RUMORED" to be $399, Lockhart has to be real. And "if" that PS5 AD is real, then Lockhart should cost $299. There's no way it can be a dollar over that amount.
 

Omeggos

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Being that the PS5 all digital is "RUMORED" to be $399, Lockhart has to be real. And "if" that PS5 AD is real, then Lockhart should cost $299. There's no way it can be a dollar over that amount.
My general thought, the amount that’s being cut down from the series x would suggest this one will be $299 while the series x will likely Range around $499-599
 
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MatrixReloaded101

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More affordable system for the many people who have 1080 tv sets and are more price conscious.
Not everyone wants to spend $500 to buy into a new generation, especially if you're someone who is running a 1080p TV with no desire to upgrade to 4K. Three of my XBox nephews are precisely in this boat and if it means they can each have a new XBox with SSD technology for Christmas, then it will save my sisters a load of dough.
Not everyone is as rich as you.
I don't think you guys understand...... M$ built their entire momentum so far off the idea that the series X will be a very powerful console , why should they destroy that to make a budget version of the console? The One X could still be used for the price conscious casual gamer. The One X can still run most of the big games like Halo infinite/Cyberpunk 2077 and they can cut the price on the one X to meet that $199 mark.

Lets be real, most of the people that will buy the console at launch will be "hardcore" gamers

I just think that if the rumors are true about the series S and it is just a cheap version of the series x then it should be announced later on down the road when M$ wants to stop making games for the Xbox one completely and they could use the series s as an entry point.
 

Mister Wolf

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I don't think you guys understand...... M$ built their entire momentum so far off the idea that the series X will be a very powerful console , why should they destroy that to make a budget version of the console? The One X could still be used for the price conscious casual gamer. The One X can still run most of the big games like Halo infinite/Cyberpunk 2077 and they can cut the price on the one X to meet that $199 mark.

Lets be real, most of the people that will buy the console at launch will be "hardcore" gamers

I just think that if the rumors are true about the series S and it is just a cheap version of the series x then it should be announced later on down the road when M$ wants to stop making games for the Xbox one completely and they could use the series s as an entry point.
The One X cannot scale with the Series X. it doesn't have the same kind of CPU, GPU, or SSD. Its as simple as that.
 
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mckmas8808

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I keep hearing Microsoft is going to do this and that, big stuff coming and nothing. I wonder if they'll fail as hard as sony has with this "next gen" message.
NONE of this will matter once both systems are released. All the pre-hype will be forgotten or nobody will care. It'll be about the games and the systems.
 
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SirTerry-T

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It's amazing that Microsoft thinks that the announcement of a Series S is something anyone would be excited about.

It's more like announcing that a family member has terminal cancer.
No...one announcement would be about a loved one dying while the other announcement would be about a fancy electronic toy used to play fucking videogames on.

What a shitty little analogy.
 
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Jigsaah

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All Microsoft said publicly on its Xbox 20/20 plans for this month was a vague comment from Xbox marketing exec Aaron Greenberg that the "June news will be done differently than [an] Inside Xbox show".
For the 10th time #firegreenberg!
 
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gamechanger87

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But the ram makes a difference. Games are made with x1 and x1x mode, how is game that uses 10gb ram in x1x mode going to run in BC on a machine with 7.5gb?
Not everything scales in a linear way.
I'm not sure I understand your point? XBX enhanced games use more RAM due to the 4K textures. Its the same game with a larger RAM footprint because of the 4k textures. The only difference between XBX and XBO games is the resolution and possibly a perf mode.

If you are going to cap a console at 1080 or 1440, you don't use 4K textures thus you do not need anywhere the same amount of RAM.

I'm still not sure why this is such a hard concept for everyone to understand. A 4K game used 4x the pixels of a 1080P game. Those are completely different RAM footprints.
 

Ar¢tos

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I'm not sure I understand your point? XBX enhanced games use more RAM due to the 4K textures. Its the same game with a larger RAM footprint because of the 4k textures. The only difference between XBX and XBO games is the resolution and possibly a perf mode.

If you are going to cap a console at 1080 or 1440, you don't use 4K textures thus you do not need anywhere the same amount of RAM.

I'm still not sure why this is such a hard concept for everyone to understand. A 4K game used 4x the pixels of a 1080P game. Those are completely different RAM footprints.
But does the game knows that?
Running BC does not change the game code, doesn't change the size of the textures. For all purposes, it is a x1x game that has to run in virtualization in a system with less ram than it was designed for.
If a game on x1x fills 10gb of ram, then virtualized it will still require 10gb of ram unless it is patched to recognize Xss hardware.
 
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Being that the PS5 all digital is "RUMORED" to be $399, Lockhart has to be real. And "if" that PS5 AD is real, then Lockhart should cost $299. There's no way it can be a dollar over that amount.
PS5 Digital @ $399, IMO, makes $299 Lockhart/Series S impossible. It'd have to be even lower. That's probably where the $199 rumor came from, though $249 could also work.

@ $299, that puts Lockhart/Series S at a bad value proposition considering what an extra $100 buys in a PS5 Digital, and I'd expect MS are aware of this if Lockhart/Series S is in fact real. So I can see Series S/Series X in one of the following pricing scenarios:

S1: $249 Series S, $499 Series X. More favorable for Series S, but less favorable for Series X. Although at this price Series X would probably be making a small profit.

S2: $249 Series S, $449 Series X: Very favorable position for both. Pretty much best scenario. If Series S is built smart they would not be losing too much on it at this price; they would lose a bit on Series X at this price but not bleeding money whatsoever. Peripheral sales, game sales and sub sales could make up the losses.

Some slight Gamepass bonus could maybe be thrown in there, maybe something like a free trail for a couple weeks or a month, or some way to redeem credit to a digital game purchase. $449 Series X places it perfectly between PS5 Digital and PS5 Disc, providing benefit of physical media on XSX for just $50 more, and an equal (if not better) value proposition to PS5 Disc for $50 cheaper.

S3: $199 Series S, $449 Series X: Maybe too optimistic. They would definitely be losing money on Series S here, probably bleeding cash on it at this MSRP. Therefore I doubt Series X would hit $449.

S4: $199 Series S, $499 Series X: More probable than the third scenario, but not as good as S1 or especially S2.. I could see MS throwing in some Gamepass bundle with Series X here, but not Series S.

S5: $299 Series S, $499 Series X: Probably worst scenario. Series S would probably either barely break even or make a slight profit, but then that might mean not throwing in a Gamepass deal with it so that lowers value proposition compared to PS5 Digital. Series X can't rely on Series S to cover against PS5 Digital as well, puts Series X in a tougher bind but perhaps throw in Gamepass to sweeten the pot.
 
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gamechanger87

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But does the game knows that?
Running BC does not change the game code, doesn't change the size of the textures. For all purposes, it is a x1x game that has to run in virtualization in a system with less ram than it was designed for.
If a game on x1x fills 10gb of ram, then virtualized it will still require 10gb of ram unless it is patched to recognize Xss hardware.
There are no X1X games. Unless I missed something I never saw a Xbox One X exclusive. Microsoft delivers the best version of the game available to the console. If you dig into the details of the files, the Xbox One will download either a Scorpio version or a standard version of a game. It's baked right into the file name and is based on profiles. It's why game sizes can be different between the different consoles.

They will have a Lockhart profile which will use X and Y based on the profile. Its the entire concept behind smart delivery.

I'm not sure what you are trying to get at.

You are the first person I have ever seen try and say that Lockhart can't play Xbox One games because of RAM.
 
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Son_of_Zardoz

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I don't get why it's hard to understand that X1X will not be moving forward and that Lockhart (if real) is the much better option. Lockhart will only need resolution scaled down/possibly lesser effects because it has the same basic structure (family of processor, ram, ssd, etc) as XSX. X1X will always be stuck with the shitty Jag processor in there that will never be able to keep up.

Same thing for those who wonder where the market is for Lockhart. Anecdotal, but I know plenty of people who stuck with the OG X1 or bought in with the X1S and never upgraded to the X1X. Primary reason being they don't have 4K tvs. I know that once the new gen starts, I hope to get an XSX but there would be no need to upgrade my kids to that extent. They have 1080p tv/monitors and will be just fine with Lockhart and will save me money.
 
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Laieon

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S3: $199 Series S, $449 Series X: Maybe too optimistic. They would definitely be losing money on Series S here, probably bleeding cash on it at this MSRP. Therefore I doubt Series X would hit $449.
Make up whatever revenue they'd be losing by having Game Pass mandatory on the system for X months. $199 down and then $10-15 a month (I'm not entirely sure how much GP is now) for a year might be an easier pill for some to swallow than $399 or $450 or $499 or however much the Series X is right off the bat. Getting people hooked and onto Game Pass seems like a better long term bet than selling a box once.
 
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I think they’re saving it for the price reveal. “Oh, is $___ too much? In that case we also have the new series S!”
"It´s ok, don´t buy the <$600 XSX! Play Cyberpunk 2077 at 900p on the XSS for $299 instead!" ;)

No one gonna buy the strongest, most powerful console. That´s <$700+ wasted per unsold unit AND if Lockhart is Digital Only ... no retailer gonna sell any-games for that (not physical, nor digital copies) ... and they won´t be making profit by selling Lockharts. So, why bother?

They´re shooting themselves in the feet. It´s stealing thunder from XSX, the console they´ve been talking about, promoting, touting how great it is since dec.2019.

It´s a dumb decision, in case of Lockhart even dumber than PS5 DE (this one wont be much cheaper, it may even cost the same, to increase profit by +$50 per sold PS5 DE).
 

MatrixReloaded101

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I don't get why it's hard to understand that X1X will not be moving forward and that Lockhart (if real) is the much better option. Lockhart will only need resolution scaled down/possibly lesser effects because it has the same basic structure (family of processor, ram, ssd, etc) as XSX. X1X will always be stuck with the shitty Jag processor in there that will never be able to keep up.

Same thing for those who wonder where the market is for Lockhart. Anecdotal, but I know plenty of people who stuck with the OG X1 or bought in with the X1S and never upgraded to the X1X. Primary reason being they don't have 4K tvs. I know that once the new gen starts, I hope to get an XSX but there would be no need to upgrade my kids to that extent. They have 1080p tv/monitors and will be just fine with Lockhart and will save me money.
People don't realize that M$ will support the Xbox one most likely for at least another 2 years, devs will continue to release multi-platform games on the Ps4 and Xbox one because of the size of the install base especially for PS4. Now with this being a fact, it makes zero sense for M$ to release the lockhart right now just to have a cheaper price when the X1X will still exist and get new games releases like halo infinite and Cyberpunk 2077.

The Disc version of the PS5 will be around $450-$500 and I am sure the Series X will be the same price maybe even $400 if M$ is willing to take a loss

A budget next gen Xbox will exist but I don't think it will at launch but people refuse to accept this ....
 

Omeggos

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I don't think you guys understand...... M$ built their entire momentum so far off the idea that the series X will be a very powerful console , why should they destroy that to make a budget version of the console? The One X could still be used for the price conscious casual gamer. The One X can still run most of the big games like Halo infinite/Cyberpunk 2077 and they can cut the price on the one X to meet that $199 mark.

Lets be real, most of the people that will buy the console at launch will be "hardcore" gamers

I just think that if the rumors are true about the series S and it is just a cheap version of the series x then it should be announced later on down the road when M$ wants to stop making games for the Xbox one completely and they could use the series s as an entry point.

"It´s ok, don´t buy the <$600 XSX! Play Cyberpunk 2077 at 900p on the XSS for $299 instead!" ;)

spec-wise the XSS is still superior to the X1X, so why would cyberpunk next 900p when the 1x will likely 1440p?

No one gonna buy the strongest, most powerful console. That´s <$700+ wasted per unsold unit AND if Lockhart is Digital Only ... no retailer gonna sell any-games for that (not physical, nor digital copies) ... and they won´t be making profit by selling Lockharts. So, why bother?
this isn’t even new, for starters when the X1X launched its not like the X1S stopped selling, secondly ms did this before with the 360 be creating a system with a HDD and one without one, both systems sold fairly well but having a second option didn’t take away from the hdd movel.

They´re shooting themselves in the feet. It´s stealing thunder from XSX, the console they´ve been talking about, promoting, touting how great it is since dec.2019.
They really aren’t, the existence of the XSS doesn’t mean the XSX is somehow a lie (it’s still the more powerful system of the two or even against ps5)

It´s a dumb decision, in case of Lockhart even dumber than PS5 DE (this one wont be much cheaper, it may even cost the same, to increase profit by +$50 per sold PS5 DE).
It’s actually a smart decision because it’ll give people an option for next gen without locking the need to get a $500-600 system.
Because the thing is even if MS’s first party supports current gen for another year, that doesn’t mean third gen will. There’s already a handful of confirmed games that’ll be next gen exclusive and that would include Lockhart but not the X1X
 

HighResTomato

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I’ve got a feeling Microsoft is also going to announce acquisitions. It would be crazy to think they did not snap up anyone else during this whole crisis.

Or potential next gen moneyhats.
 

MarkMe2525

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That's Eurogamer for you. What annoys me most though is the pandering apologetic tone of the article. No other platform would get the treated with such kid gloves.
I read the article and I don't know how you got the impression you have. It's pretty matter of fact. Plans to announce in June were pushed back to August. They are still on course for the July first party reveal.
 
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It’s actually a smart decision because it’ll give people an option for next gen without locking the need to get a $500-600 system.
Because the thing is even if MS’s first party supports current gen for another year, that doesn’t mean third gen will. There’s already a handful of confirmed games that’ll be next gen exclusive and that would include Lockhart but not the X1X
Honestly it comes down to how MS handles it. If they fuck it up, they'll pull a SEGA and end up 32X'ing the Series S, and that will hurt Series X just like how 32X hurt the Saturn in the West (it had no effect in Japan because they pretty much did everything possible to pretend it didn't exist over there...yet Japan's the one that gets the 32X mini shells for the MegaDrive Mini. WTF SEGA :rolleyes: ).

MS has to make sure that Series S provides value proposition beyond just cheap price (32X was also really cheap at release for $160), and that there's a clear upgrade path for Series S owners to Series X that doesn't make them feel they're basically paying for both a Series S hardware AND Series X hardware. On the second point, I think they have their bases covered thanks to the shared ecosystem and unified accounts across platforms, digital libraries being system-agnostic same with rewards, achievements etc.

However, I'm also worried that the shared ecosystem is a possible weakness because Series S (IMHO) needs something besides cheaper price that Series X doesn't offer, to increase the value proposition of Series S. Hopefully we will see what that unique selling hook is in July, because since Series S will provide all the same Gamepass/xCloud/Live etc. features, apps and more of Series X except on a lower spec system, that might not be enough of a hook even if it's the cheaper of the two.

Make up whatever revenue they'd be losing by having Game Pass mandatory on the system for X months. $199 down and then $10-15 a month (I'm not entirely sure how much GP is now) for a year might be an easier pill for some to swallow than $399 or $450 or $499 or however much the Series X is right off the bat. Getting people hooked and onto Game Pass seems like a better long term bet than selling a box once.
I hadn't considered them making Gamepass mandatory. It'd probably need to be the default rate, and basically akin to how cable companies rent out their boxes. It's an interesting option for subsidizing Lockhart though I think for Series X they would not be able to do this.

Rather, for Series X they could just offer a free trial for a month and offer redeem points to a lower subscription rate if they such and such games from the storefront and/or get a certain amount of Achievements in choice games available. Could be a great way to balance the value propositions between both devices.
 

ZehDon

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But the ram makes a difference. Games are made with x1 and x1x mode, how is game that uses 10gb ram in x1x mode going to run in BC on a machine with 7.5gb?
Not everything scales in a linear way.
While not everything scales in a linear way, the majority of the unified RAM in a console is consumed by textures. Dropping texture resolution via Smart Delivery on a device that doesn’t target 4k (don’t need 4k textures at 1080p) will save a huge amount of RAM, ensuring developers have the remaining space they need for game logic data that is agnostic of the render resolution.

The term “balance” gets thrown around, but all jokes aside, if the scale down from the Series X to the Series S is balanced, i.e. weaker GPU and less VRAM but same CPU same SSD speed, there’s actually very little reason why you can’t just turn down the visual settings - lower render resolution, lower texture resolution, shorter draw distance - and run the same code on the weaker machine.

Microsoft brought PC logic into the console space with the original Xbox. Looks like this time they’re back to finish the job. PC-style scaling in the console space is either absolute genius, or it’s their dumbest move since the Xbone. Time will tell.
 
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Ar¢tos

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While not everything scales in a linear way, the majority of the unified RAM in a console is consumed by textures. Dropping texture resolution via Smart Delivery on a device that doesn’t target 4k (don’t need 4k textures at 1080p) will save a huge amount of RAM, ensuring developers have the remaining space they need for game logic data that is agnostic of the render resolution.

The term “balance” gets thrown around, but all jokes aside, if the scale down from the Series X to the Series S is balanced, i.e. weaker GPU and less VRAM but same CPU same SSD speed, there’s actually very little reason why you can’t just turn down the visual settings - lower render resolution, lower texture resolution, shorter draw distance - and run the same code on the weaker machine.

Microsoft brought PC logic into the console space with the original Xbox. Looks like this time they’re back to finish the job. PC-style scaling in the console space is either absolute genius, or it’s their dumbest move since the Xbone. Time will tell.
Smart Delivery is about crossgen upgrades, not BC.
I'm talking about pure BC, where the game only has normal textures for X1 and 4k textures for X1X on disc. No middle ground textures.
 

ZehDon

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Smart Delivery is about crossgen upgrades, not BC.
I'm talking about pure BC, where the game only has normal textures for X1 and 4k textures for X1X on disc. No middle ground textures.
We don’t know if Smart Delivery is limited in any way - Microsoft haven’t acknowledged the existence of Lockhart yet.

Look into the way texture sampling is performed - it’s quite possible to simply sample less information on the fly to reduce memory costs. This is often how texture quality scaling is performed on PC - it uses the lower samples, saving memory, while reducing visual clarity of the textures.
 

MatrixReloaded101

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Price announcement pushed back to August?? ohh boy. Price War is real.
I really think its due to covid, if we had a regular e3 in may I think we would have got the price by now.

I might sound like a jerk by saying this .... but I think if people are that worried about the price they probably shouldn't be buying a video game system at launch. Historically consoles have never been "cheap" at launch.
 

ShirAhava

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Hope it has HDMI IN even tho I might be the only person on earth who uses it

The lack of HDMI IN killed my interest in getting Xbox series X day one
 
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Dr Bass

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Totally agree with Parris Lilly's take on the rumors about the Series S ... skip to 8:34

This guy Parris' take is awful. If the Xbox One is the "low cost" option instead of the Series S, your games are going to be hugely limited. He even makes a statement "When the Xbox One can't play these next gen games anymore ..." If the Xbox One can play the game it's not "next gen". :rolleyes:

Xbox One cannot be the baseline for games with Series X. It has to be Series S and X. Otherwise you are designing games to fit within the Xbox One S/X CPU and that is hugely limiting compared to Series S/X. Bring them both out now if you're actually doing both.
 

MatrixReloaded101

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This guy Parris' take is awful. If the Xbox One is the "low cost" option instead of the Series S, your games are going to be hugely limited. He even makes a statement "When the Xbox One can't play these next gen games anymore ..." If the Xbox One can play the game it's not "next gen". :rolleyes:

Xbox One cannot be the baseline for games with Series X. It has to be Series S and X. Otherwise you are designing games to fit within the Xbox One S/X CPU and that is hugely limiting compared to Series S/X. Bring them both out now if you're actually doing both.
The Xbox one would not be the baseline, devs will make current gen and next gen versions of their games which is what happened when the Xbox one and PS4 first released.

The main driving point for the series s/lockhart is price which isn't a good enough reason for it to exist day one when they could just offer the X1X for $199 .... but we will see what happens in this July event.
 
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Dr Bass

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The Xbox one would not be the baseline, devs will make current gen and next gen versions of their games which is what happened when the Xbox one and PS4 first released.

The main driving point for the series s/lockhart is price which isn't a good enough reason for it to exist day one when they could just offer the X1X for $199 .... but we will see what happens in this July event.
I think the CPU disparities are too big between these generations for that to be a reasonable approach. If you design a game to run on the PS5 or XSX CPU, I don't see how those games are downscaled to current gen without it being, basically, a different game.