Patrick Young
Member
Because they won't say how it's powered. They didn't say the Wii was powered by a GameCube. In fact I'm not sure Nintendo themselves ever officially revealed the specs of the Wii at all.
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DF: Nintendo NX Powered By Nvidia Tegra! Initial Spec Analysis
- Thread starter DeathSparks
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Graphics Horse
Member
IIRC vita used Wide IO for the VRAM part of its stacked RAM, Idk what options are available today.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
Widening your mem controller to 128 bits would be a straight-forward albeit costly option (of course less costly than putting embedded mem).
In those days high speed busses were less of an issue. To have a connectable add-on interface (that is mechanically robust and high speed) would be expensive. IMO way too exotic even for nintendo.
efyu_lemonardo
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Yeah... the more I think about it the more likely it seems there will be no performance difference between docked and undocked mode.
GhostTrick
Banned
That's the funny thing. Even after reveal, we'll have to wait for someone to open it. Because I can clearly smell the "It's using Tegra X1/X2 technology" the same way Wii U CPU was using "IBM Watson's technology".
Until someone hack it, leak it or open it and pass it through xrays, we wont know about core count and frequencies. The only thing telling will be how games performs. Let's remember how Vita's specs has been seen from amazing to low when we knew about the dramatically low clockspeeds.
It just so happens Nintendos newest hardware partner Nvidia has just such a thing for their Pascal line of tech called NVLink!
http://www.nvidia.com/object/nvlink.html
How familiar are you with Nintendo? I find it hard to believe they would do anything but that.
SanSebastian
Banned
So what would that mean for 3rd party developers?
Is this a architecture similar to the ones of PS4 and Xbox?
And also will it be more difficult for the developers if they have to "downgrade" the graphics for the weaker NX hardware?
thanks in advance
Is this a architecture similar to the ones of PS4 and Xbox?
And also will it be more difficult for the developers if they have to "downgrade" the graphics for the weaker NX hardware?
thanks in advance
Dictator93
Member
Are the assumptions going around about the home / base /connection perhaps using similar connection as NVlink in some capacity (thus connecting it to some other more powerful hardware)?
Or are people just assuming that the homebase, if it does anything at all, will just provide active cooling and thus allow for a proper upclock of GPU and CPU?
Or are people just assuming that the homebase, if it does anything at all, will just provide active cooling and thus allow for a proper upclock of GPU and CPU?
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
Not that I'm aware of, but I don't expect the SoC to use POP in the first place - POP would just make dissipation worse in 'full blast' mode.
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
Even the active cooling idea is problematic to implement.
dr_rus
Member
WideIO is kinda a predecessor of HBM (WideIO is Samsung's stacked DRAM specification which was later included into JEDEC HBM spec IIRC). Using HBM here is one option which would provide enough bandwidth for both modes of operation while keeping power consumption to a minimum. Hence why I'm wondering.
Sir_Crocodile
Member
Architecture is similar to a phone/tablet (arm arch) so mobile ports should be very easy, but console ports will be tougher as they use x86.
So exact same situation when it comes to third party console ports as with the wii u, which used ibm's power arch.
NVLink is definitely not designed for this purpose. It has a complex physical interface to support very high frequency clocks, it definitely isn't rated for constant connection-disconnections you'd see on a consumer device.
This bus definitely seems extremely power hungry, which is absolutely minor in a HPC system. It is complicated (from software to hardware), expensive and ill suited for a handheld.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
Very far from wiiU situation, actually.
Dictator93
Member
Yeah that is what I was imagining. Hrmm
I wonder then how this thing will work!
It may not even need active cooling for the upclock, but that lends to the size of the device being larger than we'd probably like. I really hope 16nm is on the table.
Well they provided the GPU family for the WiiU, so you might get a "custom Tegra X2" or something along those lines in the press release. Definitely don't expect any info on clock speeds or that kind of info.
Well first of all this is Nintendo, which means 3rd parties don't care, regardless of the specs.
That said, if any of them did have the mind to port a console game to NX, it would require that the game have very low system requirements or be significantly downgraded (which is a lot of work)
efyu_lemonardo
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Weren't there quotes from reliable sources claiming ports from PS4/XBO didn't require a lot of work?
Probably not even that. Just custom nvidia powered chipset and they'll leave it at that.
Nvidia won't say much unless they really want this to be the platform that demonstrates their bleeding-edge mobile tech.
B
bomb
Unconfirmed Member
Well todays world is so transparent and so power driven. People are going to dig and dig for the specs then they will be everywhere. You would think nintendo would want to get in front of that wave.
exmachina64
Banned
Wasn't there a similar quote for the Wii U?
calc84maniac
Member
ARM has much more general software support than PowerPC these days. Heck, you can even build for ARM in Visual Studio.
efyu_lemonardo
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Wii U was much closer to PS3/360 than NX will be to XBO/PS4 in terms of power unless performance will be boosted significantly when docked, which is something I'm currently skeptical about.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
ARMv8 has helluva better toolchains than msvc (which does only thumb2).
dr_rus
Member
We don't know much about NX architecture yet but if it will be able to reach XBO's performance level that would definitely make 3rd party multiplatform ports a lot easier to produce as most releases will still have to support XBO platform target even after Scorpio's launch in a year from now.
Binary compatibility means little in this day and age, it's more dependent on what amount of work on the engine's architecture and game's content must be performed to port a game to a platform. This is mostly performance / h/w specifics related like: will its CPU be able to run the same CPU code as XBO? will its GPU be able to run the same shaders as XBO? will it have enough memory to fit the same assets as XBO in it? will it controller be generally compatible with XBO's? etc.
Which is precisely why they prematurely leaked this information, so that we know Nintendo will use the newest Tegra, X1, before they announce the upgrade.
Nintendo doesn't cut off its nose to spite its face, which is what the cynics seem to be saying. Instead, Nintendo chooses the best available hardware that fits the thermal and other design aspects of the system. Going with a standard Tegra X1 world be absurd given its power draw. The NX has to be using a custom design (16nm, Pascal, etc,) or an X2. The spring 2017 release timeframe is a further indication of a newer solution.
Console ports would be easier than many people think cause a great amount of game engines support arm already.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Stop it! You know Nintendo isn't into that type of stuff.
Gotdatmoney
Member
I remember the WiiU hardware speculation threads. People had the same optimism being shown here. It's Nintendo, the odds they go out and use the newest technology seems very umlikely to me. The only thing that nakes me think you may be right is because apparently X1 is less efficient than X2 amd handhelds cant be battery destroyers.
Why, Microsoft and Sony are with Scorpio and Neo? Or Nvidia with the 1200$ new Titan? Lol
It just isn't feasible now.
Well going for a X1 is already pretty out of the ordinary for Nintendo. It would still place the device on the high end.
Skittzo0413
Member
I have a hard time believing there won't be some performance gains for two reasons:
1. Everybody has an HDTV. You need to get your game to some HD resolution (which the handheld mode would likely not be able display).
2. What is the purpose of using a significantly downclocked chip in the handheld if you never plan to upclock it? Why not go for a lower powered cheaper chip then?
I definitely expect whatever chip they use to have improved performance when docked- the question is how much of an improvement can they realistically get with whatever cooling solution they have considering the design of the handheld and the dock.
dr_rus
Member
This type of stuff will have to be done by NV, not Nintendo. Nintendo is just paying money for this. But sure, I tend to be overly optimistic on these things. It's way more likely that it'll just be TX1 (Parker is we're lucky) without any active cooling and just a frequency bump in stationary mode. Which is boring.
wonderful103
Member
Nintendo is involved in the design (and are licensing Tegra I believe)
efyu_lemonardo
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The question is how (as in via what mechanism) would you improve performance when docked? And what would be the tradeoffs in terms of the handheld design? Bare in mind that Nintendo has held on to a consistent simple handheld design philosophy since the days of game & watch, and it's paid off for them every single time.
The Wii and Wii U started off as Gamecube and Wii peripherals, respectively, and so were constrained to using much of the same technology. The NX is a clean break, the same way the Gamecube was.
It's nonsense to argue that Nintendo will use deprecated, less-efficient technology, "just because", or out of spite, when doing so would cause such clear and obvious harm with no upside.
Skittzo0413
Member
Based on the replies in this thread, some level of upclocking when docked seems quite likely, and the cooling and RAM bandwidth issues don't seem anywhere near insurmountable. I'm not sure why simply clocking up the GPU when in docked mode makes the handheld design any more complex for the end user... as many have said, this is a very common feature in modern electronics.
Edit:
It's never been "just because" or out of spite, contrary to many of the arguments you'll find here. On the contrary, as you've said it was largely a matter of backwards compatibility. This is Nintendo's first new hardware architecture since the Gamecube, so we can essentially throw out the motivations for the moves they've made during Wii-Wii U eras.
That's not to say we should expect them to go cutting edge- they still do retain the "lateral thinking with withered technology" philosophy as far as I'm aware. But if they can be assured that this technology is mature and reliable enough, I don't see why they would ignore it. Price is really the main issue here, but the rumor that Nintendo essentially got a steal in this deal with Nvidia shouldn't be ignored.
McHuj
Member
The more I think about it, I think a Pascal based tegra will be the direction Nintendo goes.
I think Nintendo will want the additional features of Pascal for more efficient image processing and computer vision. I think Nintendo will delve more into AR with the NX.
The CPU/GPU will come down to whatever they can fit into a ~2W 50-75mm SOC on 16FF. Denver cores maybe too big and A57's used in the X1 are too power inefficient.
I could see a 2 A72 + 4 A53 + 256 Pascal shaders @ 250 MHz (~128 gigaflops) + 4GB of LPDDR4. That's my prediction. Maybe... some embedded SRAM since Nintendo has always done that.
I think Denver cores would be really interesting for virtual console emulation.
I think Nintendo will want the additional features of Pascal for more efficient image processing and computer vision. I think Nintendo will delve more into AR with the NX.
The CPU/GPU will come down to whatever they can fit into a ~2W 50-75mm SOC on 16FF. Denver cores maybe too big and A57's used in the X1 are too power inefficient.
I could see a 2 A72 + 4 A53 + 256 Pascal shaders @ 250 MHz (~128 gigaflops) + 4GB of LPDDR4. That's my prediction. Maybe... some embedded SRAM since Nintendo has always done that.
I think Denver cores would be really interesting for virtual console emulation.
efyu_lemonardo
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I can't comment on RAM bandwidth, but if you want to read a more complete and thorough examination of the cooling issues I suggest you look at Thraktor's posts in the original thread.
Also dont forget to take into account that price is a big factor for Nintendo.
Skittzo0413
Member
The other thread is enormous, do you have a link to that post? Also I read some discussion of his about cooling in this thread, and it's really only an issue when the clocks hit a certain level. What I'm saying is that many people here believe the portable clocks will be somewhere around or below 500MHz and the docked clocks will be somewhere below 1GHz, while one of Thraktor's posts indicated that a 16nm Pascal chip could run at 1.6GHz, but at that point the cooling becomes a major issue for a console that we're supposed to pick up from the dock whenever we choose. 1GHz likely has much less of an issue with cooling, and cooling in itself is not an expensive or insurmountable problem as far as a dock is concerned.
I don't really know what you mean by price here- assuming the Eurogamer article is accurate and the devkits are using Tegra X1's, there should be no difference in price if those X1s keep the same clock in both portable and docked mode or if they are downclocked in portable mode and upclocked in docked mode. Beyond cooling (which isn't expensive) I don't really know what you mean by price being a big factor.
There's no density improvement going from 20nm planar to 16nmFF. The numbers next to "nm" are really pretty meaningless these days. They'd struggle to fit evn one SM into 75mm2.
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