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DF PS5 analysis (prepare to be uninterested)

phil_t98

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Not that I am surprised you asked for evidence and now hastily reject it and proceed to go on the offensive. It seemed disingenuous to begin with.

You present it a binary choice and setup your own straw man about people wanting Leadbetter to praise the PS5 to high heavens, but that is a straw man because it is not the argument people are making. Between calling the teardown video uninteresting (staying silent was an option) and doing their video the way they did it, there are a lot less cynical and impartial happy mediums than what he delivered.

Do you know that there is a third way between delivering your homework full of typos and not sending it in at all, right? Do you want a participation trophy “we are all winners because we tried” or something?
see this is the thing, HE DID PRAISE THE PS5 a hell of a lot, you guys were just looking for negative stuff just to troll. he said its really well designed
 

Panajev2001a

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see this is the thing, HE DID PRAISE THE PS5 a hell of a lot, you guys were just looking for negative stuff just to troll. he said its really well designed
I was not looking for high praise, I was not looking for another example of Leadbetter being Leadbetter :).

Praise for PS5 coming with “good, but” “this concerns though” “we will need to see if” and general cynicism while usually his XSX coverage is either really glowing without any ifs or buts (see his BC review) or if he has to deliver less than happy news he ends then with a positive note “hope springs eternal”.
 

phil_t98

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I was not looking for high praise, I was not looking for another example of Leadbetter being Leadbetter :).

Praise for PS5 coming with “good, but” “this concerns though” “we will need to see if” and general cynicism while usually his XSX coverage is either really glowing without any ifs or buts (see his BC review) or if he has to deliver less than happy news he ends then with a positive note “hope springs eternal”.
they have not got their hands on the console, he can’t glow about something he hasn’t had his hands on. Yet he still praised it a lot. You just pointed out what I said by saying “leadbetter being leadbetter” that’s was the perfect example of what I was saying.
 

Panajev2001a

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they have not got their hands on the console, he can’t glow about something he hasn’t had his hands on. Yet he still praised it a lot. You just pointed out what I said by saying “leadbetter being leadbetter” that’s was the perfect example of what I was saying.
Again with the glowing bit (not asking him to sing glowing praise of PS5), his attitude has been the same, hence the pattern, for a while even before he had any of the two consoles. There was a pattern in their previous coverage, there is a pattern in pre-reveals and post reveals (how long did they push the PS5 software Raytracing vs XSX real HW based Raytracing “concern”?), and we see a similar butthurt (or entitled perhaps) to say the least attitude with each of the consoles’ teardown. Not sure how you can call this proof of what you were saying at all .

Then again if you want to see backhanded compliments and “good, but... “concern”” towards PS5 as glowing praise I am not surprised as minor criticism towards XSX/XOne that still ends on a positive hopeful note tends to be sold by some as “harsh criticism/see Battaglia and Leadbetter tore the Xbox a new one!”. Perspectives eh ;)?
 
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phil_t98

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Again with the glowing bit (not asking him to sing glowing praise of PS5), his attitude has been the same, hence the pattern, for a while even before he had any of the two consoles. There was a pattern in their previous coverage, there is a pattern in pre-reveals and post reveals (how long did they push the PS5 software Raytracing vs XSX real HW based Raytracing “concern”?), and we see a similar butthurt (or entitled perhaps) to say the least attitude with each of the consoles’ teardown. Not sure how you can call this proof of what you were saying at all .

Then again if you want to see backhanded compliments and “good, but... “concern”” towards PS5 as glowing praise I am not surprised as minor criticism towards XSX/XOne that still ends on a positive hopeful note tends to be sold by some as “harsh criticism/see Battaglia and Leadbetter tore the Xbox a new one!”. Perspectives eh ;)?
so him saying maybe that Sony's way of handling the ps5 by not talking about it may of been better than Microsofts approach? how great the SSD was? as I said you all look for what you want and miss the good points. you went into the video looking to criticise it that's the point
 

Panajev2001a

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so him saying maybe that Sony's way of handling the ps5 by not talking about it may of been better than Microsofts approach? how great the SSD was? as I said you all look for what you want and miss the good points. you went into the video looking to criticise it that's the point
It is not a scoring game mate. “Oh but look look he did say XYZ thing that was positive about it and also ABC thing that was also positive, why don’t you sing his unbiased praises?!?”. I am not saying his video was shite either so stop white-knighting here maybe?

I did not go into the video to criticise it and expecting it to be negative or positive or middle of the road, but Battaglia’s comments and the radio silence by Leadbetter before him were not great indicators. Fine, they are pissed Sony cut them out/was able to live and get their message out without paying the toll at the gate while MS flew them over and they were happy to sign an NDA with them, we get it.

“Why do you complain about the mistakes I made in my paper prof and do not acknowledge all these sentences that were correct huh? First you complained when I called doing the paper a waste of my time and had not submitted it yet and then you complain when I do submit it... you are just biased!” —The Argument.
 
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ZywyPL

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Praise for PS5 coming with “good, but” “this concerns though” “we will need to see if” and general cynicism while usually his XSX coverage is either really glowing without any ifs or buts (see his BC review) or if he has to deliver less than happy news he ends then with a positive note “hope springs eternal”.
But whose fault is that Sony keeps everything for themselves and leaves many understatements and concerns open while the clock's ticking and PS5 is just month away from release?
 

phil_t98

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It is not a scoring game mate. “Oh but look look he did say XYZ thing that was positive about it and also ABC thing that was also positive, why don’t you sing his unbiased praises?!?”. I am not saying his video was shite either so stop white-knighting here maybe?

I did not go into the video to criticise it and expecting it to be negative or positive or middle of the road, but Battaglia’s comments and the radio silence by Leadbetter before him were not great indicators. Fine, they are pissed Sony cut them out/was able to live and get their message out without paying the toll at the gate while MS flew them over and they were happy to sign an NDA with them, we get it.

“Why do you complain about the mistakes I made in my paper prof and do not acknowledge all these sentences that were correct huh? First you complained when I called doing the paper a waste of my time and had not submitted it yet and then you complain when I do submit it... you are just biased!” —The Argument.
good you can see the good points of the video but you can't say they are pissed they didn't get sent a ps5 because you dont know that. also he did criticise Microsoft saying maybe the way they have promoted Series X was not as good as how sony did the PS5
 
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WelshBluebird

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Different form factor. As far as dimensions go it's smaller. M.2 2230 SSD

That's the surface. Not the Xbox.

So yeah no proof - just his thoughts based on looking at some pictures.
From me looking at it - it looks to me like the box that contains the SSD is possibly soldered to the board with no way to get into it.
Until MS or people with the console in their possession confirm it is replaceable - you should assume it isn't.

Just to point out that I am a fan of his videos and am sub'd to both his channels. But until you see it with your own eyes you shouldn't assume everything he says about an unreleased product is true - he has been wrong about other things with the PS5 and Xbox Series S/X before.
He even says "we still have to see".
 
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J_Gamer.exe

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I think the video was fairly ok, but clearly less excitement on display, few odd comparisons and concerns. One thing i noticed was Richard still doesn't seemingly understand the 'boost clocks'.

I find this incredible that a tech channel of this size and scope.

Its been explained on here many times, we had the post from the guy on resetera about it, very explanatory. Weve had red gaming tech mention about smartshift adjusting power many times per frame, every few milliseconds. On top of explanations from cerny.

But Richard always seemed a little confused, even after talking to cerny, he was asking abut base clocks and then did that ridiculous rdna1 test that didn't match upto what cerny said. But why would it its on old hardware being pushed beyond its limit.

There's so many tests he could have done to show how a lower cu higher clocked card vs a higher cu lower clocked card, with a similar teraflop difference to the PS5 and series x, can perform the same or better at times.

Surely that would have been the thing to show, or they had wanted to.
 

Evilms

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That's the surface. Not the Xbox.



So yeah no proof - just his thoughts based on looking at some pictures.
From me looking at it - it looks to me like the box that contains the SSD is possibly soldered to the board with no way to get into it.
Until MS or people with the console in their possession confirm it is replaceable - you should assume it isn't.

Just to point out that I am a fan of his videos and am sub'd to both his channels. But until you see it with your own eyes you shouldn't assume everything he says about an unreleased product is true - he has been wrong about other things with the PS5 and Xbox Series S/X before.
He even says "we still have to see".
No information whether the xsx is welded or not

 

spyshagg

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The topic is a testament to how DF is seen in such high regard (and deservingly so).

We have two groups of people, using their limited time in this world to go on the Internet and fight over two corporation products.

Both want DF on their side so desperately, all you see here is either group "praising" of "diminishing" respectively to what suits their side best.
 

Panajev2001a

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But whose fault is that Sony keeps everything for themselves and leaves many understatements and concerns open while the clock's ticking and PS5 is just month away from release?
Oh come on... this is quite a poor excuse to concern troll 🙃.
 

NXGamer

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I said that the SDD is removable, not that you'll be able to remove by yourself. It's the technical support that will do this and this with these locks.
If the PS5's SSD breaks you'll need a completely new board, with the SeX the technical support can just replace the SDD and restore your board. It's cheaper.
We do not know if the SX SSD is removable AND both companies with a service request via RMA would repair/replace the SSD BGA not replace the board.
 

MaulerX

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That's the surface. Not the Xbox.



So yeah no proof - just his thoughts based on looking at some pictures.
From me looking at it - it looks to me like the box that contains the SSD is possibly soldered to the board with no way to get into it.
Until MS or people with the console in their possession confirm it is replaceable - you should assume it isn't.

Just to point out that I am a fan of his videos and am sub'd to both his channels. But until you see it with your own eyes you shouldn't assume everything he says about an unreleased product is true - he has been wrong about other things with the PS5 and Xbox Series S/X before.
He even says "we still have to see".



Let's put it this way, MS never said it was soldered unto fhe motherboard. In fact, MS's very own official render clearly shows you that it's removable. And yes the pic is from a Surface to show that that's what they use on their products.
 

Panajev2001a

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Maybe you can blindly go all-in for PS5, but not everyone shares your enthusiasm.


EDIT:
Oh fuck, I forgot you're one of those guys who believes that SSD renders graphics/processes the data, sorry then, please ignore my question.
:LOL: so your response is just attacking and then editing to add insults on top. Classy ;). Please do show where I stated that SSD renders graphics...
 
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Panajev2001a

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Right. And we do know that that metal shielding is removable though. It's there to help with heat dissipation.
Yes, but until we see what is underneath we cannot really judge whether they are allowing the SSD to be replaced or not.
 

FrankWza

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Isn’t it safe to assume that the reason Sony soldered is because there isn’t a suitable replacement coming to the market anytime soon? Just to keep someone from having that option and messing with the system. Once drives that are as powerful as the launch drive come to market maybe we’ll see PS5 revisions without a soldered SSD.
 

ZywyPL

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:LOL: so your response is just attacking and then editing to add insults on top. Classy ;). Please do show where I stated that SSD renders graphics...

Heh, oh the irony, you're the one attacking/accusing everyone left and right for spreading FUD, misinformation, concern trolling, paid shilling and what's not. But I'll just quote one independent developer - "your beef is with Sony".
 

Redlight

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Not that I am surprised you asked for evidence and now hastily reject it and proceed to go on the offensive. It seemed disingenuous to begin with.

You present it a binary choice and setup your own straw man about people wanting Leadbetter to praise the PS5 to high heavens, but that is a straw man because it is not the argument people are making. Between calling the teardown video uninteresting (staying silent was an option) and doing their video the way they did it, there are a lot less cynical and still impartial happy mediums than what he delivered.

Do you know that there is a third way between delivering your homework full of typos and not sending it in at all, right? Do you want a participation trophy “we are all winners because we tried” or something?
You constantly write these replies as if your Woodward & Bernstein uncovering The Big Conspiracy.

It's amazing.

You (and the other people constantly making this claim) have never been able to present a compelling case, or any serious evidence, to support your claim that DF is biased against Sony. It's all incredibly minor nit-picking rubbish like...

"yet another example of how the coverage is always more cynical on one side than the other."

Is that your evidence? Do you not see that it's just your interpretation - as a fan?

You feel like they're biased because you want them to think just like you. When they don't, by raising a legitimate concern or interesting question, it makes you uncomfortable and you interpret that as bias.

If their wrongdoing was so clear then this site would be swamped with irrefutable examples, rather than a smattering of vague 'They hurt my feeling when they said X' nonsense.
 

Redlight

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Who cares? I don't even think you can say for certain that Brits are the creators of the language but even then, I don't find that makes the pronunciation more valid, or warrants such a silly response. Brits evolved the language over time but we Americans perfected it, simplified it, and in that way evolved it. Agree to disagree I guess, since it's all subjective.
Is this satire? Someone please tell me it's satire.
 

phil_t98

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This post didn't warrant a new thread because we have enough threads on the matter, but I still don't know what console to get first because I'm a big supporter of exclusivity (PS5) but have a whole group I play with on Xbox One. There are, however, two different individual reasons for me buying either console on day one:

PS5: Best launch lineup since the PS2 including BC and Demon's Souls and Spider-Man. Actual exclusives at launch?!
XSX: Guaranteed performance upgrades to BC upgrades, and I want to "upgrade" my One S without wasting that $500 on a One X.



Who cares? I don't even think you can say for certain that Brits are the creators of the language but even then, I don't find that makes the pronunciation more valid, or warrants such a silly response. Brits evolved the language over time but we Americans perfected it, simplified it, and in that way evolved it. Agree to disagree I guess, since it's all subjective.
you mean the English who came over to America with the English language?
 
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Three

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Now I understand why Sony did
It's obvious that this SDD is not fixed, it's just protected and you aren't supposed to change it yourself.
If it breaks Microsoft support can change it for you, after all, it's not only a matter of putting a brand new SSD there, the new SSD will need to be formatted with the SO and backup of your account.

Now on PS5 this repair will be impossible.
It not impossible but requires a heatgun and some skill
 

NXGamer

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Who cares? I don't even think you can say for certain that Brits are the creators of the language but even then, I don't find that makes the pronunciation more valid, or warrants such a silly response. Brits evolved the language over time but we Americans perfected it, simplified it, and in that way evolved it. Agree to disagree I guess, since it's all subjective.
 

WelshBluebird

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Let's put it this way, MS never said it was soldered unto fhe motherboard. In fact, MS's very own official render clearly shows you that it's removable. And yes the pic is from a Surface to show that that's what they use on their products.
They also never said it wasn't soldered onto the board though.
The render and the picture don't show anything clearly, all we know is there a box on the board that contains the SSD.
It may be easily removable, it may not be.
As for the surface picture - that means nothing here. It is of a different product.

Right. And we do know that that metal shielding is removable though. It's there to help with heat dissipation.
Do we? Do we have a picture of it removed? Do we have a video of someone removing it?

It's obvious that this SDD is not fixed, it's just protected and you aren't supposed to change it yourself.
How is it obvious exactly?
 
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phil_t98

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Amazed in the other thread we were discussing about it with R Redlight and not even a week later yet another example of how the coverage is always more cynical on one side than the other...
as said earlier its how you view it. there are plenty of vids of them being cynical about both sides
 
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Over time they evolved it, but it was invented by non-Englishmen but that's only if you want to be real technical but either way that doesn't make Rich's pronunciation any more valid than mine, it's perfectly okay yet subjective to say that the "creators" make the pronunciation more valid, just as it is for me to say that some British pronunciation of words are flat out silly and American English is superior in a number of ways/British English has its own strengths.

Either way I admit I don't know too much about it (which is what forums are for, correction and education).
 
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Yeah, the parts that the 'tubers got to play with were all dummy magnetized parts, even the SoC, for ease of assembly.
Rogame found out he were using wrong measurements in his first tweet, so he came out with an updated size. I'd guess a size between 300-320mm2 is about right.

Appreciate the link. I'm still just really curious if it's DUV Enhanced or EUV, then. I've been working on some calculations for mid-gen refreshes and next-next gen systems, and it'd be pretty useful to know where the upcoming next-gen systems fall in that regard.

Currently I got Series X pegged at 7nm DUV Enhanced and PS5 at 7nm EUV, but kind of "halfway" on it in some of the areas. Maybe that sounds about right? xD Doesn't matter, it'd probably be easy enough to adjust things in the future if I'm wrong.
 
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Anyway, as I was saying earlier, anyone know what system I should go with? Leaning towards PS5 but I don't know how much longer I can stand blurry One S games. 🤦‍♂️
 

RaySoft

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Appreciate the link. I'm still just really curious if it's DUV Enhanced or EUV, then. I've been working on some calculations for mid-gen refreshes and next-next gen systems, and it'd be pretty useful to know where the upcoming next-gen systems fall in that regard.

Currently I got Series X pegged at 7nm DUV Enhanced and PS5 at 7nm EUV, but kind of "halfway" on it in some of the areas. Maybe that sounds about right? xD Doesn't matter, it'd probably be easy enough to adjust things in the future if I'm wrong.
So it's confirmed that the Series X' SoC is processed with DUV?

Edit:
TSMC
TSMC started mass production of its 7-nanometer N7 node in April 2018. TSMC considers its 7-nanometer node a full node shrink over its 16-nanometer. Although TSMC has released a 10-nanometer node the year prior, the company considered its 10 nm to be a short-lived node and was intended to serve as a learning node on its way to 7. In early 2019 TSMC introduced the second version of its N7 process called N7P which provides additional performance enhancements. With the availability of high-throughput EUV machines ready for mass production, TSMC introduced a third variant called N7+ which uses EUV

 
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NXGamer

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Over time they evolved it, but it was invented by non-Englishmen but that's only if you want to be real technical but either way that doesn't make Rich's pronunciation any more valid than mine, it's perfectly okay yet subjective to say that the "creators" make the pronunciation more valid, just as it is for me to say that some British pronunciation of words are flat out silly and American English is superior in a number of ways/British English has its own strengths.

Either way I admit I don't know too much about it (which is what forums are for, correction and education).
English is English, French is French, Italian is Italian, Japanese is.... you get the gist.

Changing the pronunciation of a English, French etc etc word to suit you is largely called slang or maybe dialect for something such as large areas of China and other countries.

The point is a countries language is it's own. Scotland and Ireland have their own languages and even derivatives there, the only 'owner' of that language is the originator. English is from England, that's really it, you cannot add an opinion to that.
 

ShadowWolf712

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English is English, French is French, Italian is Italian, Japanese is.... you get the gist.

Changing the pronunciation of a English, French etc etc word to suit you is largely called slang or maybe dialect for something such as large areas of China and other countries.

The point is a countries language is it's own. Scotland and Ireland have their own languages and even derivatives there, the only 'owner' of that language is the originator. English is from England, that's really it, you cannot add an opinion to that.
Methinks he's confusing contributions to a living language with "originating" it.

Old English was an almost entirely different language, yes, but it was still the tongue spoken by the Angles, for whom England (and thus English) is named.
 

NXGamer

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Methinks he's confusing contributions to a living language with "originating" it.

Old English was an almost entirely different language, yes, but it was still the tongue spoken by the Angles, for whom England (and thus English) is named.
Yes, it does sound that way.

English is largely so "complex" as we have taken so many words over the years from other languages. Obvious as it is so old and has changed and evolved over time.
 
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The topic is a testament to how DF is seen in such high regard (and deservingly so).

We have two groups of people, using their limited time in this world to go on the Internet and fight over two corporation products.

Both want DF on their side so desperately, all you see here is either group "praising" of "diminishing" respectively to what suits their side best.
It is truly a sight to behold.
 

NoMoChokeSJ

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Different people are allowed to have different opinions.
If you think that is true you should go into the the politics section of GAF and try it out, lol. Yes, people can have different opinions but there is a group on here that get highly offended if you don't cup Sony's balls while being overly complimentary. People complained that DF didn't do a video. They did a video and complained that the video basically wasn't them gushing over a piece of hardware they don't have any hands on time with. And even more retarded is some claim that DF is salty that Sony didn't send them a PS5 when NOBODY in the world not tied to Sony has one. It's a stupid and counterproductive conversation full of bias and weirdly perceived persecution of a gaming console... the humanity.
 
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I said that the SDD is removable, not that you'll be able to remove by yourself. It's the technical support that will do this and this with these locks.
If the PS5's SSD breaks you'll need a completely new board, with the SeX the technical support can just replace the SDD and restore your board. It's cheaper.
There's no confirmation if it's removable, but just simply looking at the shot, it certainly seems like it'd be removable in a way not requiring de-soldering. I can't remember where I read it, but someone either on B3D or Era talked about the clamps at the side possibly being able to get pulled to lift the top part off, and slot in another compatible drive.

That and when you look at the board shots for Series X on MS's website, when they get to the SSD part, you can see something over the SSD keeping it slotted in place. It's not an x-clamp, but some type of clamp. And it clearly looks like the SSD is housed in that compartment bay (at least from the shot I am thinking of).

Really wish I could find the post in particular that touched on it, it's convinced me that most likely, the internal drive might be replaceable. But it'd need to be a custom replacement, not simply any old drive could slot in there much less be outright compatible. And that's tying back into some posts on how the XvA might be working WRT memory mapping a couple of posters on B3D went into (which I linked a long time ago in the Xbox Velocity Architecture thread) that could be the reason they needed to use proprietary drives in the first place.

FWIW, IIRC MS manufactures the actual drive and its internals. Companies like Seagate are building compatible enclosures to house the drive components, which are compatible with MS's spec. I think it's fair to speculate the internal drive could be replaceable, but it's prob best to treat it as speculation rather than confirmation until official word is provided (and even if so, I don't know if that'd mean "replaceable" as in the end-user could just replace it themselves).
 
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EDMIX

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That's the surface. Not the Xbox.



So yeah no proof - just his thoughts based on looking at some pictures.
From me looking at it - it looks to me like the box that contains the SSD is possibly soldered to the board with no way to get into it.
Until MS or people with the console in their possession confirm it is replaceable - you should assume it isn't.

Just to point out that I am a fan of his videos and am sub'd to both his channels. But until you see it with your own eyes you shouldn't assume everything he says about an unreleased product is true - he has been wrong about other things with the PS5 and Xbox Series S/X before.
He even says "we still have to see".
Agreed. I felt that video was extremely suspect, like why would you assume its replaceable when MS themselves haven't stated that? If such a thing was a feature, they'd clearly tell you that during the teardown.
 

BusierDonkey

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Agreed. I felt that video was extremely suspect, like why would you assume its replaceable when MS themselves haven't stated that? If such a thing was a feature, they'd clearly tell you that during the teardown.
No information whether the xsx is welded or not





You can use the above images to extrapolate that the drive is removeable.

The panel marked SSD in the top image is an EMI shield that snaps onto the SSD cage using small beveled points that line up with matching holes in the cage. The cage is soldered to the board, but the lid is removeable. You can pry this off with a simple part separator tool or a screwdriver if you're a savage. Lots of laptops use shields just like this to kill electrical interference from other components. Those EMI shields come apart the same way. Here you can see a similar design on the left with the same beveled tabs that line up with matching holes.



Under that EMI shield is the SSD itself, mounted like a typical M.2 format drive with a single Torx screw holding the far end of the SSD down. Both the SSD and the Torx screw are visible in Microsoft's own console renders.
 
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