DF: Unreal Engine 5 Matrix City Sample PC Analysis: The Cost of Next-Gen Rendering

PaintTinJr

Member
Well, if someone is making a video that could be viewed by thousands upon thousands of people and is also making claims as to why a system is out performing a high end pc which could be categorically and factually wrong. I would hope that they would be called out for it. Especially if it is not intentional, so the person can be given a chance to rectify the content at fault.

If it is not at fault then myself and others can be ignored, and we can move on. There's nothing wrong with questioning the data here when so many people have vastly different performing data.
They are statistics and people are interpreting them. Is there a definitive answer to the statistical performance of any commercial game with vsync and triple buffering disabled on PC in a given situation? Why should there be a definitive answer here? Does the stutter on Elden Ring impact all PCs and all PCs of the similar parts identically?
 

assurdum

Banned
Just......Wow! The audacity.
Wow two of three post here and just to engage a member war against me. You should be proud of yourself brave warrior. Because I really don't understand what the argument quoted by you it has to do to what I'm saying about the DF partiality.
 
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DenchDeckard

Gold Member
They are statistics and people are interpreting them. Is there a definitive answer to the statistical performance of any commercial game with vsync and triple buffering disabled on PC in a given situation? Why should there be a definitive answer here? Does the stutter on Elden Ring impact all PCs and all PCs of the similar parts identically?

We are talking 14fps vs people hitting 25 -30 fps with what is thought to be the same settings on the same hardware. If I was getting 10 to 15 fps less than a load of other people with the same hardware I sure as shit would want to know why and look to fix it.
 
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PaintTinJr

Member
We are talking 14fps vs people hitting 25 -30 fps with what is thought to be the same settings on the same hardware. If I was getting 10 to 15 fps less than a load of other people with the same hardware I sure as shit would want to know why and look to fix it.
If others saying his results are off are genuinely being fair like-for-like and haven't forgotten to mention their GPU is watercooled and actually a 3070ti, not a 2070, then going by the pictures by winjer I would say - without a reference value - the cooling on nxgamer's 2070 is performing badly by comparison, as winjers is 15degs less,

Have a look at the pictures yourself, at some of the numbers - other than the FPS - and they don't look like comparative systems functioning the same IMO.
 

Elog

Member
We are talking 14fps vs people hitting 25 -30 fps with what is thought to be the same settings on the same hardware. If I was getting 10 to 15 fps less than a load of other people with the same hardware I sure as shit would want to know why and look to fix it.
The problem is that before we know the exact settings a user is using for the City Project (and there are an insane amount), their MB chip set with settings, memory with settings etc the conclusions that people draw in this thread are simply wrong. Just saying "I have CPU X and GPU Y and i got Z FPS" is not sufficient information to draw pretty much any conclusions when making comparisons. When people are making RAM comparisons for example, you need to specify what setting you are using with regard to preloaded City Scape tiles in RAM (you can go all the way from one tile to all of them. The settings list is long...

The relevant question when comparing NX Gamers results and other results is what demo settings, system settings or hardware specifications that are driving the difference instead of drawing the conclusion that he ran the test wrong (of course he did not).
 
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SlimySnake

The Contrarian
If others saying his results are off are genuinely being fair like-for-like and haven't forgotten to mention their GPU is watercooled and actually a 3070ti, not a 2070, then going by the pictures by winjer I would say - without a reference value - the cooling on nxgamer's 2070 is performing badly by comparison, as winjers is 15degs less,

Have a look at the pictures yourself, at some of the numbers - other than the FPS - and they don't look like comparative systems functioning the same IMO.
It's not just his 2070 which is paired up with a problematic 2700x, it's the 6800 + 3600 benchmarks that are totally off.

You can see it from the screenshots. The GPU utilization along with the GPU power draw and clockspeed is simply off. It makes no sense whatsoever for the gpu to be performing like that.

You can also see his specs for this pc, and they look fine to me. nothing really jumps out at me.



I posted the 6800 benchmark on the last page. the video didnt have the same scene comparison but this one features the 6800xt and even though the card is only 15% faster than the 6800 and its using a faster CPU, it is offering 100% more performance compared to NX gamer's 6800.



To me, the key is the GPU utilization. His GPU is being bottlenecked by something in the system. I dont know what it is, but I think he should troubleshot his system and run some benchmarks to figure it out. Right now, those results are way off due to the GPUs in his system being heavily underutilized.

If its isolated to just the Matrix demo then some troubleshooting can actually help him prove his point if he ends up determining that the reason for the bottleneck was his ram or gen 3 PCIE express or whatnot.
 
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Exanthus

Banned
Wow two of three post here and just to engage a member war against me. You should be proud of yourself brave warrior. Because I really don't understand what the argument quoted by you it has to do to what I'm saying about the DF partiality.

You never learn, didn't you just get off your month long ban?
 

Guilty_AI

Member
Does the stutter on Elden Ring impact all PCs and all PCs of the similar parts identically?
Actually yes. Unless you ran it through proton/linux where valve took it upon themselves to fix the game. Seems the problem was poor resource management on the part of From.

That said, stutters have been fixed across the board already.
 
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It's usually the green rats with no knowledge that get upset anytime "SSD" or "I/O" is brought up. You'll usually see them refer to it as "magical I/O" and other similar words when they get upset.

Doesn’t make sense because multiple platforms are adopting new tech for that I/O. There’s the velocity architecture for the Series and Direct 2 Storage for PC. Also Nvidia is adding to the I/O advancement with RTX I/O. Nobody should get mad at this.
 

Guilty_AI

Member
Doesn’t make sense because multiple platforms are adopting new tech for that I/O. There’s the velocity architecture for the Series and Direct 2 Storage for PC. Also Nvidia is adding to the I/O advancement with RTX I/O. Nobody should get mad at this.
Its a good way to gain some performance and reduce CPU bottlenecks, and in the case of the ps5 save up some GPU/CPU processing power for future proofing. It can also improve loading times 2 seconds or so from what we've been show so far with the Forspoken tech trailer.

But thats the thing, thats it.
Its an improvement, not this huge game changer that'll completely shake the world of game design, or even more hilariously, create games that are only possible on ps5 hardware and need i9-12900Ks, RTX 3090s and the fastest SSD in the market to work on PC. Thats what the magical SSD I/O is.
 
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avin

Member
Nobody should get mad at this.

This shouldn't be so hard to understand. NXGamer NXGamer 's numbers don't jive with the numbers posted by several users with comparable rigs. His PC numbers are way too low. So sure, several people are trying to understand what happened.

There doesn't have to be more to it than that. Not everyone has an axe to grind.

avin
 
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This shouldn't be so hard to understand. NXGamer NXGamer 's numbers don't jive with the numbers posted by several users with comparable rigs. His PC numbers are way too low. So sure, several people are trying to understand what happened.

There doesn't have to be more to it than that. Not everyone has an axe to grind.

avin

I was making a reference to Staticshocks reaction to any I/O talk. I know some are questioning NXgamer and it’s fine to speculate on why the numbers are weird. But every time the I/O gets brought up Static seems to get angry. Not exactly at NXgamer but more towards the technology itself.
 
Its a good way to gain some performance and reduce CPU bottlenecks, and in the case of the ps5 save up some GPU/CPU processing power for future proofing. It can also improve loading times 2 seconds or so from what we've been show so far with the Forspoken tech trailer.

But thats the thing, thats it.
Its an improvement, not this huge game changer that'll completely shake the world of game design, or even more hilariously, create games that are only possible on ps5 hardware and need i9-12900Ks, RTX 3090s and the fastest SSD in the market to work on PC. Thats what the magical SSD I/O is.

I believe the talk is more about certain games being possible on SSDs than HDDs. Developers ditching slow HDDs for really fast SSDs can allow them to design their games a bit differently. The compromises they made with slow HDDs don’t have to be made anymore if that technology is ditched. Of course in case your wondering I’m not just talking about the PS5s I/O but the vast I/O improvements that’s going to be available on all platforms.

Will there be games not possible on HDDs? I’m pretty sure at some point fast I/Os will be a requirement. I’m just happy that it’s standard in all consoles.
 

Guilty_AI

Member
I believe the talk is more about certain games being possible on SSDs than HDDs. Developers ditching slow HDDs for really fast SSDs can allow them to design their games a bit differently.
It should be, yet thats not how the people singing praises to the magical I/O frame it, which is the annoying part. Mere SSD requirements, even the newer ones, are basically a non-issue for PC and has been that way for years.
 

SlimySnake

The Contrarian
Its a good way to gain some performance and reduce CPU bottlenecks, and in the case of the ps5 save up some GPU/CPU processing power for future proofing. It can also improve loading times 2 seconds or so from what we've been show so far with the Forspoken tech trailer.

But thats the thing, thats it.
Its an improvement, not this huge game changer that'll completely shake the world of game design, or even more hilariously, create games that are only possible on ps5 hardware and need i9-12900Ks, RTX 3090s and the fastest SSD in the market to work on PC. Thats what the magical SSD I/O is.
I think the PS5 IO is the real deal, but will devs use it? Doubtful to say the least. The Matrix demo uses 300 MBps. PS5's 5.5 GBps is overkill for UE5, but this is where their first party studios can come in and design the game around the PS5 IO. It might not push visuals better than PC, but it has the potential to redefine game design for sure.

The Superman gif i posted above shows how fast Superman can fly around the matrix city. It is really fast. Especially when you do the initial boost, but what Cerny showed in the spiderman ssd demo is way faster.



The question is who will utilize it? Sony devs pretty much, and they are being forced to port their games to PC which could mean they might not fully utilize the PS5 IO in order to ensure they can port it. We've already seen Ratchet not even come close to maxing out the 5.5 GBps speeds of the SSD.

But if devs sit down and really think about changing game design, the potential is limitless. We can finally have Christopher Nolan style scenes where you have dreams within dreams following multiple characters at once in different places. We can have insanely fast traversal like what you see above. A true flash game or a true superman game with no limitations could be possible. Or devs can go all Doctor Strange on us and breakdown entire worlds on top of us and throw us in parallel universes at the drop of a hat.

But will they? I dont think so. Sony devs are good at combat. Great at storytelling. Exceptional at visuals, but i dont see them particularly innovative or great level designers. They will make a great traditional game, but can they innovate and shake up game design like you said? I have my doubts.

The fact that its been three years since that Spiderman gif was released and we have seen ZERO fucking games utilizing the PS5 IO for fast traversal just tells me that they arent going to do much with the PS5 IO. However, that doesnt mean the PS5 IO/SSD isnt magical or game changing.
 
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Guilty_AI

Member
I think the PS5 IO is the real deal, but will devs use it? Doubtful to say the least.
Its the real deal, but not the real deal you think it is.

The Matrix demo uses 300 MBps. PS5's 5.5. GBps is overkill for UE5, but this is where their first party studios can come in and design the game around the PS5 IO.
They will not design the game around the ps5 i/o. They'll design the game around SSDs in general, along with everyone else.

It might not push visuals better than PC, but it has the potential to redefine game design for sure.
SSDs may in some ways (though what they're actually doing is alleviate a bottleneck that was growing through the years of improving processing power). The ps5 i/o in particular is not relevant here.

The Superman gif i posted above shows how fast Superman can fly around the matrix city. It is really fast. Especially when you do the initial boost, but what Cerny showed in the spiderman ssd demo is way faster.



The question is who will utilize it? Sony devs pretty much, and they are being forced to port their games to PC which could mean they might not fully utilize the PS5 IO in order to ensure they can port it. We've already seen Ratchet not even come close to maxing out the 5.5 GBps speeds of the SSD.

But if devs sit down and really think about changing game design, the potential is limitless. We can finally have Christopher Nolan style scenes where you have dreams within dreams following multiple characters at once in different places. We can have insanely fast traversal like what you see above. A true flash game or a true superman game with no limitations could be possible. Or devs can go all Doctor Strange on us and breakdown entire worlds on top of us and throw us in parallel universes at the drop of a hat.

But will they? I dont think so. Sony devs are good at combat. Great at storytelling. Exceptional at visuals, but i dont see them particularly innovative or great level designers. They will make a great traditional game, but can they innovate and shake up game design like you said? I have my doubts.

The fact that its been three years since that Spiderman gif was released and we have seen ZERO fucking games utilizing the PS5 IO just tells me that they arent going to do much with the PS5 IO. However, that doesnt mean the PS5 IO/SSD isnt magical or game changing.
And thats the issue i was talking with MasterCornholio MasterCornholio above. You're mixing up possible improvements that SSDs bring to the table with the ps5 i/o in particular.

And the games you talk about can already be made, even on HDDs with some cutbacks maybe. All SSDs will help achieve here is improve on the quality of the assets so we could, hypothetically, have the games you described with better visuals.
 
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The idea that sony developers would intentionally not fully utilize the full bandwidth of the ps5's ssd so PC users without fast nvme drives is completely asinine.

Why the heck would Cerny have focused on storage speeds to begin with?!?

PC has always been the if you can't run it, upgrade platform. Since the 7th generation of consoles, PC has been held back by consoles, not the other way around and this won't change because of some fast storage on consoles lol.

In a lot of games traditional HDD's are already useless on PC, and sata ssd's are next on the chopping block. Just wait until cross gen ends.
 
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Shmunter

Member
The idea that sony developers would intentionally not fully utilize the full bandwidth of the ps5's ssd so PC users without fast nvme drives is completely asinine.

Why the heck would Cerny have focused on storage speeds to begin with?!?

PC has always been the if you can't run it, upgrade platform. Since the 7th generation of consoles, PC has been held back by consoles, not the other way around and this won't change because of some fast storage on consoles lol.

In a lot of games traditional HDD's are already useless on PC, and sata ssd's are next on the chopping block. Just wait until cross gen ends.
I like your optimism. But I get a feeling the ps5 design is seperate from more recent curveballs in the business decision department. Including building for last gen consoles.
 
I like your optimism. But I get a feeling the ps5 design is seperate from more recent curveballs in the business decision department. Including building for last gen consoles.
Right, a few games that probably weren't initially planned for PS4 got put on it due to shortages. But seriously when Sony no longer supports PS4 (I think gow will be the last major one) then Sony studios will go full force.

PC has absolutely nothing to worry about. Faster Ryzen 3 cpus combined with nvme 4.0 drives can exceed PS5 already (on paper, because the software is still catching up), and pcie 5 is coming soon which will leave the PS5 drive in the dust.

There's no way my Ryzen 5800x3D plus gen 4 drive will ever have issues with PS5 ports.
 
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Shmunter

Member
Right, a few games that probably weren't initially planned for PS4 got put on it due to shortages. But seriously when Sony no longer supports PS4 (I think gow will be the last major one) then Sony studios will go full force.

PC has absolutely nothing to worry about. Faster Ryzen 3 cpus combined with nvme 4.0 drives can exceed PS5 already (on paper, because the software is still catching up), and pcie 5 is coming soon which will leave the PS5 drive in the dust.

There's no way my Ryzen 5800x3D plus gen 4 drive will ever have issues with PS5 ports.
The memory pipeline on the pc still needs addressing. The triple handling before assets end up in the GPU ram is an obstacle for latency and workloads. Luckily it is recognised and GPU dma and decompression is on the cards.
 

kyliethicc

Member
I like your optimism. But I get a feeling the ps5 design is seperate from more recent curveballs in the business decision department. Including building for last gen consoles.
Probably, but the good news is PCs can just use more RAM and/or other hardware.

Sony 1st party devs should have no issue using the PS5 hardware to its fullest. Despite Jimbo’s charitable donations to PC users.
 
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SlimySnake

The Contrarian
Its the real deal, but not the real deal you think it is.


They will not design the game around the ps5 i/o. They'll design the game around SSDs in general, along with everyone else.


SSDs may in some ways (though what they're actually doing is alleviate a bottleneck that was growing through the years of improving processing power). The ps5 i/o in particular is not relevant here.


And thats the issue i was talking with MasterCornholio MasterCornholio above. You're mixing up possible improvements that SSDs bring to the table with the ps5 i/o in particular.

And the games you talk about can already be made, even on HDDs with some cutbacks maybe. All SSDs will help achieve here is improve on the quality of the assets so we could, hypothetically, have the games you described with better visuals.
We have already seen the difference between titanfall and ratchet. One flips the same level with a different color palette, the other is loading an entirely different thing. It can be done today but clearly the next Gen leap of far greater and ratchet isn’t even coming close to maxing it out.

Regardless,i think you and i are the saying the same thing but are talking past each other. The io compliments the ssd so i use them interchangeably. What the ps5 ssd and io can do is allow devs to do things in a completely different paradigm. Whether or not they will or even have the ability to do it is besides the point.
 

PaintTinJr

Member
It's not just his 2070 which is paired up with a problematic 2700x, it's the 6800 + 3600 benchmarks that are totally off.

You can see it from the screenshots. The GPU utilization along with the GPU power draw and clockspeed is simply off. It makes no sense whatsoever for the gpu to be performing like that.

You can also see his specs for this pc, and they look fine to me. nothing really jumps out at me.



I posted the 6800 benchmark on the last page. the video didnt have the same scene comparison but this one features the 6800xt and even though the card is only 15% faster than the 6800 and its using a faster CPU, it is offering 100% more performance compared to NX gamer's 6800.



To me, the key is the GPU utilization. His GPU is being bottlenecked by something in the system. I dont know what it is, but I think he should troubleshot his system and run some benchmarks to figure it out. Right now, those results are way off due to the GPUs in his system being heavily underutilized.

If its isolated to just the Matrix demo then some troubleshooting can actually help him prove his point if he ends up determining that the reason for the bottleneck was his ram or gen 3 PCIE express or whatnot.
Am I reading it wrong or is his 6800 drawing under 100watts (the 6800XT being +200watts) in that comparison? If both nxgamers configs have outlier numbers my bet would be on him using the same PSU and the PSU having a faulty 6 or 8 pin - assuming he has to use both an 8+6pin (at a minimum) to power either card.
 

winjer

Gold Member
Am I reading it wrong or is his 6800 drawing under 100watts (the 6800XT being +200watts) in that comparison? If both nxgamers configs have outlier numbers my bet would be on him using the same PSU and the PSU having a faulty 6 or 8 pin - assuming he has to use both an 8+6pin (at a minimum) to power either card.

I doubt it's an issue with his power supply.
It's something with his CPU, that is bottlenecking the GPU too much.
This means the GPU is wasting too much time waiting for the CPU. And this means most of the GPU's units are just idling. Therefor, the much lower power consumption.
But this basically voids any comparison he does with PC. At least until he fixes his machine.
 

Allandor

Member
I doubt it's an issue with his power supply.
It's something with his CPU, that is bottlenecking the GPU too much.
This means the GPU is wasting too much time waiting for the CPU. And this means most of the GPU's units are just idling. Therefor, the much lower power consumption.
But this basically voids any comparison he does with PC. At least until he fixes his machine.
Just guessing but maybe (just maybe) it has something to do with his PCIe controller? E.g. Horizon was very affected by PCIe bandwidth (if I remember correctly, DF had this issue with the PC version of the game and didn't know what was wrong until the community helped to pinpoint the problem). E.g. wrong bios settings which forces a lower bandwidth/standard for the slot. Second x16 slot used which might half the useable PCIe lanes.
This is just one thing I remember that can easily go wrong (also easy to check in GPU-z).
 

winjer

Gold Member
Just guessing but maybe (just maybe) it has something to do with his PCIe controller? E.g. Horizon was very affected by PCIe bandwidth (if I remember correctly, DF had this issue with the PC version of the game and didn't know what was wrong until the community helped to pinpoint the problem). E.g. wrong bios settings which forces a lower bandwidth/standard for the slot. Second x16 slot used which might half the useable PCIe lanes.
This is just one thing I remember that can easily go wrong (also easy to check in GPU-z).

Could be. But we can only guess.
I'm betting on having a ton of bloatware running in the background, since his memory usage is so high.
But it could be anything, like some issue with some device driver, memory configuration or setting, a bad windows update, Infinity Fabric not matching the ram speed, etc...
 
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PaintTinJr

Member
I doubt it's an issue with his power supply.
It's something with his CPU, that is bottlenecking the GPU too much.
This means the GPU is wasting too much time waiting for the CPU. And this means most of the GPU's units are just idling. Therefor, the much lower power consumption.
But this basically voids any comparison he does with PC. At least until he fixes his machine.
I haven't used afterburner for many years, so I can't remember, but does the overclocking get held in the GPU firmware - say if moving between PCs without reinstalling afterburner? If it does, it is very possible he previously tested for matching power draw to the consoles - capping the power draw - and forgot to reset the cards back to defaults and is thinking they are running full tilt, although that doesn't match up with his 2070 running hotter with less power draw, and less work being done (via FPS count).

Years ago I accidentally powered up my Doom3 alpha specced Pentium 4/ATI 980 Pro without the secondary ATX connector attached, just for a moment, and although the system appeared to still work as normal, it was never right from that day on, and it used to occasionally stall like a non-HT/SMT CPU.

Only years later when I tried to accommodate poorly matched memory at higher speeds on another system - by disabling the high precision motherboard clock did I get the same type of stalls again, stall the mouse pointer for a second every few minutes - so if he's had a moment without both connected(or is it three ATX plugs needed for some Intel and AMD setups, now?) then the board's clock might be having issues which might explain things.
 
I think the PS5 IO is the real deal, but will devs use it? Doubtful to say the least. The Matrix demo uses 300 MBps. PS5's 5.5 GBps is overkill for UE5, but this is where their first party studios can come in and design the game around the PS5 IO. It might not push visuals better than PC, but it has the potential to redefine game design for sure.

The Superman gif i posted above shows how fast Superman can fly around the matrix city. It is really fast. Especially when you do the initial boost, but what Cerny showed in the spiderman ssd demo is way faster.



The question is who will utilize it? Sony devs pretty much, and they are being forced to port their games to PC which could mean they might not fully utilize the PS5 IO in order to ensure they can port it. We've already seen Ratchet not even come close to maxing out the 5.5 GBps speeds of the SSD.

But if devs sit down and really think about changing game design, the potential is limitless. We can finally have Christopher Nolan style scenes where you have dreams within dreams following multiple characters at once in different places. We can have insanely fast traversal like what you see above. A true flash game or a true superman game with no limitations could be possible. Or devs can go all Doctor Strange on us and breakdown entire worlds on top of us and throw us in parallel universes at the drop of a hat.

But will they? I dont think so. Sony devs are good at combat. Great at storytelling. Exceptional at visuals, but i dont see them particularly innovative or great level designers. They will make a great traditional game, but can they innovate and shake up game design like you said? I have my doubts.

The fact that its been three years since that Spiderman gif was released and we have seen ZERO fucking games utilizing the PS5 IO for fast traversal just tells me that they arent going to do much with the PS5 IO. However, that doesnt mean the PS5 IO/SSD isnt magical or game changing.
Uh Spiderman looks great, but is not a valid comparison.
 

Guilty_AI

Member
We have already seen the difference between titanfall and ratchet. One flips the same level with a different color palette, the other is loading an entirely different thing. It can be done today but clearly the next Gen leap of far greater and ratchet isn’t even coming close to maxing it out.
Ratchet wasn't maxing it out because it wasn't even making anything that strictly required SSDs. All of its portals were either limited to rail roaded segments (where you often couldn't even look behind you), portals that teleported you through short distances, or portals at specific locations that teleported between 2 different areas, all of which we've already seen before (not talking about titanfall).

The last two don't even require faster storages, the third one in particular being more stressful for the GPU than anything. We've seen those in Portal games (and other source based games) and Prey 2006 respectively.

The first type of portal can be achieved with good memory management. A game with lower quality assets (and by lower quality i don't mean it looks bad) can make you teleport between all the worlds you want or throught all of the game's map as long as you can fit it properly into RAM. For higher quality assets you just need to load and unload them at appropriate times (since the segment is rail roaded, i can just start loading the next world assets as soon as the character enters a new world, since player has no real control of when or where he'll teleport).

Regardless,i think you and i are the saying the same thing but are talking past each other. The io compliments the ssd so i use them interchangeably. What the ps5 ssd and io can do is allow devs to do things in a completely different paradigm. Whether or not they will or even have the ability to do it is besides the point.
No we were not. Even if no one thought about optimizing the i/o pipeline, be it on ps5 or other platforms, we'd still get all the 'revolutions' you're talking about by merely adopting SSDs. Thats the point, its the "magical i/o" because people are attributing far more credit to it than it actually has, most of the credit actually belonging just to SSDs in general.

My guess is that all the shiny eyed fans watched that Cerny talk where he compared the PS5 with the PS4 and mistakenly started believing all those super 100x faster speed improvements were something exclusive to the ps5. These comparisons fall much shorter when you put it against modern PCs, even without direct storage or what not.
So don't worry, nothing will be holding back the ps5 capabilities.
 

Haggard

Banned
Ratchet wasn't maxing it out because it wasn't even making anything that strictly required SSDs.
The developers openly said how it works in R&C (wipe/refill) and that it absolutely requires an SSD.....Any other method would have had to work with cutbacks in transition times or graphical quality.
I really don`t understand why people are still "discussing" this when the developers already gave an explanation......
 
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winjer

Gold Member
I haven't used afterburner for many years, so I can't remember, but does the overclocking get held in the GPU firmware - say if moving between PCs without reinstalling afterburner? If it does, it is very possible he previously tested for matching power draw to the consoles - capping the power draw - and forgot to reset the cards back to defaults and is thinking they are running full tilt, although that doesn't match up with his 2070 running hotter with less power draw, and less work being done (via FPS count).

Years ago I accidentally powered up my Doom3 alpha specced Pentium 4/ATI 980 Pro without the secondary ATX connector attached, just for a moment, and although the system appeared to still work as normal, it was never right from that day on, and it used to occasionally stall like a non-HT/SMT CPU.

Only years later when I tried to accommodate poorly matched memory at higher speeds on another system - by disabling the high precision motherboard clock did I get the same type of stalls again, stall the mouse pointer for a second every few minutes - so if he's had a moment without both connected(or is it three ATX plugs needed for some Intel and AMD setups, now?) then the board's clock might be having issues which might explain things.

MSI Afterburner stores the OC in a configuration file. It does not write to BIOS.
Could it be something not properly configured with MSI Afterburner, yes.
But once again, only he can solve the issue.
 

Shmunter

Member
Ratchet wasn't maxing it out because it wasn't even making anything that strictly required SSDs. All of its portals were either limited to rail roaded segments (where you often couldn't even look behind you), portals that teleported you through short distances, or portals at specific locations that teleported between 2 different areas, all of which we've already seen before (not talking about titanfall).

The last two don't even require faster storages, the third one in particular being more stressful for the GPU than anything. We've seen those in Portal games (and other source based games) and Prey 2006 respectively.

The first type of portal can be achieved with good memory management. A game with lower quality assets (and by lower quality i don't mean it looks bad) can make you teleport between all the worlds you want or throught all of the game's map as long as you can fit it properly into RAM. For higher quality assets you just need to load and unload them at appropriate times (since the segment is rail roaded, i can just start loading the next world assets as soon as the character enters a new world, since player has no real control of when or where he'll teleport).


No we were not. Even if no one thought about optimizing the i/o pipeline, be it on ps5 or other platforms, we'd still get all the 'revolutions' you're talking about by merely adopting SSDs. Thats the point, its the "magical i/o" because people are attributing far more credit to it than it actually has, most of the credit actually belonging just to SSDs in general.

My guess is that all the shiny eyed fans watched that Cerny talk where he compared the PS5 with the PS4 and mistakenly started believing all those super 100x faster speed improvements were something exclusive to the ps5. These comparisons fall much shorter when you put it against modern PCs, even without direct storage or what not.
So don't worry, nothing will be holding back the ps5 capabilities.
There are 2 different portals in R&C, the portals that teleported you through short distances, or 2 different areas as you put it are just one type, the other type takes you to a completely new map with all different assets exchanged into ram on demand - not a piece of the current map pre-loaded into ram and hidden somewhere.

Irrespective, anything with a 2 sec load time as we are seeing in next gen specific code is a revelation from where we’ve been before, on any platform.
 

M1chl

Currently Gif and Meme Champion
It's usually the green rats with no knowledge that get upset anytime "SSD" or "I/O" is brought up. You'll usually see them refer to it as "magical I/O" and other similar words when they get upset.
I mean in this sense, it's definitely more like limitation of the cache system on CPU + RAM, because of that master slave CPU type of SW architecture. The thing which bothers me, is that the I/O complex is (I really want to stress this) revolutionary, in both cases (more so on PS5, because of deeper integration), but it does not really substitute truly parallel programming and so on. I don't really like when people are drawing conclusions based on some PR. Like I said previously, I expected more from the EPIC in this sense. They have some good technology there, however the system which brings it all together is still architected in times of low core count CPUs. And starting with ID Tech 7, it's clear to me, what is the best way to go about it. No control CPU, shared parallel workloads in true P2P sense. Sadly this is something no HW ever helps with (well outside you know multi core CPU, possible GPU), this is just how you write your program. And yes P2P with minimal overhead is way more advance type of programming.

So from my perspective, someone whose job, main is to make really parallel programming works (because otherwise you can kiss the KC: D on Switch goodbye), these things matters to me.
 

Guilty_AI

Member
There are 2 different portals in R&C, the portals that teleported you through short distances, or 2 different areas as you put it are just one type, the other type takes you to a completely new map with all different assets exchanged into ram on demand - not a piece of the current map pre-loaded into ram and hidden somewhere.
Both of which i addressed, something you would know if you read my comment properly. In fact, there aren't 2 types, but 3.
 
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Guilty_AI

Member
The developers openly said how it works in R&C (wipe/refill) and that it absolutely requires an SSD.....Any other method would have had to work with cutbacks in transition times or graphical quality.
Exactly, you can do it without an SSD with some cutbacks and/or good memory management. It wasn't "impossible" to do before, much like it wasn't impossible to make a cinematic looking game without RTX cards.
 

Shmunter

Member
Both of which i addressed, something you would know if you read my comment properly. In fact, there aren't 2 types, but 3.
So in that case, I’m not sure the basis of your critique.

The customised I/o takes compressed assets from storage and slots them into ram ready for the GPU to use all in one operation and free from reserving additional system resources. There’s also some priority management apparently to ensure lowest latency etc, but that’s going deep.

On last gen I/o everything needs to be read into ram, decompressed by the cpu back into ram, then copied over into vram. The difference in i/o is substantial.

The SSD is only the secondary storage component in all this. Call it magic or not, that’s the fundamental difference, one which opens up devs to not worry about I/o workarounds or restrictions.
 
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Guilty_AI

Member
So in that case, I’m not sure the basis of your critique.

The customised I/o takes compressed assets from storage and slots them into ram ready for the GPU to use all in one operation and free from reserving additional system resources. There’s also some priority management apparently to ensure lowest latency etc, but that’s going deep.

On last gen I/o everything needs to be read into ram, decompressed by the cpu back into ram, then copied over into vram. The difference in i/o is substantial.

The SSD is only the secondary storage component in all this. Call it magic or not, that’s the fundamental difference, one which opens up devs to not worry about I/o workarounds or restrictions.
You still haven't read any of my comments it seems.
 
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Haggard

Banned
Exactly, you can do it without an SSD with some cutbacks and/or good memory management. It wasn't "impossible" to do before,
It`s impossible to do it dynamically without either sacrificing much of the graphical quality and/or accepting much longer load times disrupting the gameplay.
Just because you could theoretically do it with stick-figure graphics doesn`t mean that it`s an actual option....
The last R&C game as it is would not have been possible without an SSD. That´s a simple and developer verified fact and trying to discuss this away is kinda silly......
 
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Shmunter

Member
You still haven't read any of my comments it seems.

This you?

"magical i/o" because people are attributing far more credit to it than it actually has, most of the credit actually belonging just to SSDs in general.

My guess is that all the shiny eyed fans watched that Cerny talk where he compared the PS5 with the PS4 and mistakenly started believing all those super 100x faster speed improvements were something exclusive to the ps5.

.Etc?
 

Shmunter

Member
It`s impossible to do it dynamically without either sacrificing much of the graphical quality or accepting much longer load times disrupting the gameplay.
Just because you could theoretically do it with stick-figure graphics doesn`t mean that it`s an actual option....
The last R&C game as it is would not have been possible without the SSD. That´s a simple and developer verified fact and trying to discuss this away is kinda silly......
Indeed. The point to it all is that from a dev perspective any and all I/o restrictions are gone, *poof*. No workarounds, no cutbacks, not special design decision around bottlenecks, no balancing acts. Dev freedom to harness relatively instant asset loading as they please.

Maybe they do see it as magical after all. 💁
 
But do you really think 30fps will become a thing again?
C'mon OF COURSE. Just look at Unreal 5. We know how that's the near future for many many games and if this video doesn't prove that 30 fps is the target for console (esp when high end pc's can't hit 60) then there's no way we'll see 60 fps in unreal 5 games on console. Maybe there will be some secondary mode that doesn't have lumen or nanite that could be 60 but then the game will barely resemble the quality mode. I don't even know if it will be possible to have a performance mode without nanite on UE5.
 

Shmunter

Member
C'mon OF COURSE. Just look at Unreal 5. We know how that's the near future for many many games and if this video doesn't prove that 30 fps is the target for console (esp when high end pc's can't hit 60) then there's no way we'll see 60 fps in unreal 5 games on console. Maybe there will be some secondary mode that doesn't have lumen or nanite that could be 60 but then the game will barely resemble the quality mode. I don't even know if it will be possible to have a performance mode without nanite on UE5.
Triggered!

Let’s hope some 1st party engines bring home the bacon at 60 then.
 

Guilty_AI

Member
This you?

"magical i/o" because people are attributing far more credit to it than it actually has, most of the credit actually belonging just to SSDs in general.

My guess is that all the shiny eyed fans watched that Cerny talk where he compared the PS5 with the PS4 and mistakenly started believing all those super 100x faster speed improvements were something exclusive to the ps5.

.Etc?
Seems you haven't interpreted any of my comments then, cause i've addressed all the points you made, and i ain't repeating myself.
 
I think people are overreacting to be honest. There will be 60fps UE5 games on console, nevermind PC (in fact there already is with Fortnite).
I very much doubt this Matrix demo had much optimization, and isnt it using like all UE5 feature set at once?. Many people talked how the demo looked close to movie cgi, so got to keep things into perspective.
Tons of devs will be pushing some good looking UE5 games that probably are a quarter as demanding as The Matrix demo.. DrDisrespect talked abouit how impressed he and his team were with their early testing on UE5, and he's the king of framerate.
That guy is a total douche bag
 
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