DF: Unreal Engine 5 Matrix City Sample PC Analysis: The Cost of Next-Gen Rendering

SlimySnake

The Contrarian
How many seamless open world have we had 🤷‍♂️, how many fast paced racing games have we drove through 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️. One type of design philosophy existing doesn't really exclude the other.
Those seamless open worlds are bottlenecked by streaming speeds. We have seen this in Spiderman where a glitch lets gamers fly through the city at really fast speeds and the game just pauses while it loads the rest of the map.


We also have Avatar devs talking about how SSDs let them do faster traversal at higher quality graphics.

It's not just that the world needs to look good as you lazily soar over it – it's that it needs to stay looking good while you travel very, very quickly, as Jansén explains: "You're flying at enormous high speeds on a Banshee over this very, very detailed landscape. It doesn't matter how much we can render, unless we can stream it in as fast when we're moving very fast from one place to another. So just this shift to these newer hard drives, it can't be underestimated because, and it really has a lot of implications."

Map Design​

One of the less visible benefits of new hardware is in changing not just how the open world looks, but how it's pieced together. Because of more limited tech, older open world games needed to balance detail with density, which can lead to large areas of relative nothingness between major points of interest (I'm looking at you Assassin's Creed: Odyssey). It seems that new-gen tech will allow Frontiers of Pandora to be built a little more organically:

"It's not just the old 'I'm taking this slow walk as I enter into the place because we have to stream everything in'," explains Jansén of the benefits to his maps, "it's little subtle things that people don't think about, which is how close together are all the places in the world. If you look at, with the old hard drives, they had to be spaced out very far [apart], because you had to stream out the old and stream in the new, so it just created a formulaic world. So, there's a ton of stuff like that."

Now thats a multiplatform game that will likely target the slower 500 MBps SATA SSD drives like Matrix is doing which basically means a 10x increase in streaming speeds is allowing them to do all of the above. Well, the PS5 SSD is capable of 10x that so if these devs can do so much with just 500 MBps then imagine the possibilities and i keep stressing this, the possibilities and potential of a 5.5 GBps 10x more powerful than the SATA SSDs most games will target. Even if they target the 2.4 GBps SSD in the XSX, you still have 2x more bandwidth. You can do a lot more with 2x more anything.
 
So I was looking at DF video on PS5 performance and couldn't help but notice it's not exactly perfect 30 lock when driving?

It's @35 min:


compared to an older PC:


Just imagine how well it's gonna run once PC gets magical I/O :messenger_face_screaming:
 

rofif

Member
Those seamless open worlds are bottlenecked by streaming speeds. We have seen this in Spiderman where a glitch lets gamers fly through the city at really fast speeds and the game just pauses while it loads the rest of the map.


We also have Avatar devs talking about how SSDs let them do faster traversal at higher quality graphics.



Now thats a multiplatform game that will likely target the slower 500 MBps SATA SSD drives like Matrix is doing which basically means a 10x increase in streaming speeds is allowing them to do all of the above. Well, the PS5 SSD is capable of 10x that so if these devs can do so much with just 500 MBps then imagine the possibilities and i keep stressing this, the possibilities and potential of a 5.5 GBps 10x more powerful than the SATA SSDs most games will target. Even if they target the 2.4 GBps SSD in the XSX, you still have 2x more bandwidth. You can do a lot more with 2x more anything.
found the same glitch on ps5. Runs much better
 
I think the PS5 IO is the real deal, but will devs use it? Doubtful to say the least. The Matrix demo uses 300 MBps. PS5's 5.5 GBps is overkill for UE5, but this is where their first party studios can come in and design the game around the PS5 IO. It might not push visuals better than PC, but it has the potential to redefine game design for sure.

The Superman gif i posted above shows how fast Superman can fly around the matrix city. It is really fast. Especially when you do the initial boost, but what Cerny showed in the spiderman ssd demo is way faster.



The fact that its been three years since that Spiderman gif was released and we have seen ZERO fucking games utilizing the PS5 IO for fast traversal just tells me that they arent going to do much with the PS5 IO. However, that doesnt mean the PS5 IO/SSD isnt magical or game changing.

Even after the years of debunking, you people still wont let the magical super fast uber SSD/IO myth die.
Even after loading times analysis have been virtually identical. Remember we had to deal with people initially pushing the myth that other platforms would need an elevator.

Tonight, I will change the traversal speed in the matrix and go even faster than that gif. All on a SATA SSD, with no IO optimization (DirectStorage) or GPU decompression (RTXIO) Will that change your thinking? Nope. It seems like facts don't matter

Spider-Man is likely a lot more asset heavy based on the Ue5 stats, so it stresses I/o more so. But indeed, the engines are completely different, last gen - next gen sort of thing.

Do you ever think, is what am saying actually the truth? like can I actually prove it?

You do realize that we have access to all the textures and assets of spiderman? Right?
So you can know what the average size of all their textures. is it 512k, 1024k, 2048k or all 4096k textures like Matrix demo?

A single window in the Matrix demo has more triangles than probably all of the spiderman open world section.

Yes that's over 3.1 MILLION TRIANGLES for one window!


All textures ARE 4k
A single building has ~3,000 materials
Like come on, its like you people are not even trying logically
 
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SlimySnake

The Contrarian
Even after the years of debunking, you people still wont let the magical super fast uber SSD/IO myth die.
Even after the loading times were virtually identical. Remember we had to deal with people initially pushing the myth that other platforms would need an elevator.
Tonight, I can change the traversal speed in the matrix and go even faster than that gif. All on a SATA SSD, with no IO optimization (DirectStorage) or GPU decompression (RTXIO) Will that change your thinking? Nope. It seems like facts don't matter
Nonsense. We have had no debunking. That's just wishful thinking.

What we do have are devs literally telling us in plain english that SSDs are essential to doing this. We have literally seen sub second loading times in Spiderman during fast travel just as Cerny claimed. We have literally seen with our own eyes demos of the PS5 running the same game without pausing. All of this stuff posted in this very thread on this very page, and you continue to ignore reality and say everyone is wrong but me!

It's delusional. Get some help.
 

Guilty_AI

Member
Those seamless open worlds are bottlenecked by streaming speeds. We have seen this in Spiderman where a glitch lets gamers fly through the city at really fast speeds and the game just pauses while it loads the rest of the map.

Not always though, especially if the game already has the backend to deal with fast flying speeds (which spiderman doesn't have since it doesn't really need to)

Game/video from 2013 👇


We also have Avatar devs talking about how SSDs let them do faster traversal at higher quality graphics.
In the end thats all it comes down to. Better graphics. This isn't a game design revolution as you've been trying to say 🤷‍♂️.
 
Nonsense. We have had no debunking. That's just wishful thinking.
Do you want me to compile the thousands of posts surrounding SSD/IO in this forum that have been proven to be false so far?
What we do have are devs literally telling us in plain english that SSDs are essential to doing this. We have literally seen sub second loading times in Spiderman during fast travel just as Cerny claimed.
Typical misinformation that is pushed often to hold claim to the mytical ssd/io and the holy grail of fast loading. But lets do an objective comparison using a game where we have a previous baseline. Even though we know you hate that. You can't just use one arbitrary game because every game has a different game size, tech, etc. What matters is how much it has improved versus the baseline. Basically what was the load time before and then afterwards.

Spiderman PS4 Pro vs PS5 (Loading saved game)

26.0 seconds | 2.14 seconds (12x improvement)

Avengers Next Gen Upgrade PS4 Pro vs PS5 (Loading saved game)

1min 2.11 seconds | 4.32 seconds (14x improvement)

So which game has the best load times improvement multiplier? Yes its NOT Spiderman Its actually The Avengers and other games with similar loading improvement multiplier.

If spiderman was ported to other similar platforms, it would load in virtually the same time as we see in the case of The avengers.
These are pure numbers. Pure fact.

We have literally seen with our own eyes demos of the PS5 running the same game without pausing. All of this stuff posted in this very thread on this very page, and you continue to ignore reality and say everyone is wrong but me!

It's delusional. Get some help.

I hope everyone is reading this. first he says, look how fast you can go in spiderman thanks to the mytical superfast ssd/io
When I respond that I can change the speed of Matrix traversal to match and even go faster than that.
He lashes out and melts down. Why? Because he's not really interested in facts. Its all about spreading misinformation to push the SSD/IO narrative.

Someone who is actually interested in the truth would say "wow i wanna see that so we can compare".

Numbers don't lie, nor are they delusional or need your help.
 
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SlimySnake

The Contrarian
In the end thats all it comes down to. Better graphics. This isn't a game design revolution as you've been trying to say 🤷‍♂️.
Wait, so now you are saying that SSDs wont be a game design revolution? You keep changing your stance here. Before it was 'yes, SSDs will make a difference but the PS5 SSD wont' but when presented with actual devs quotes saying how this wont be possible without SSDs, you change your tune to well SSDs wont be a game design revolution? Like at least be consistent man. What is it that you are trying to argue?

And thats just one example. From one developer making a very traditional open world game. You get way faster traversal than you did last gen. You get denser environments and a lack of empty barren wastelands splitting playable areas. We have all been through those Destiny loading corridors a billion times grinding patrol missions. if devs are not constrained by those streaming limitations, they can change together those areas. They can build them on top of one another. They can drop you in and out of different environments at a moments notice. Keep things more dynamic than the static environments we have become used to since the start of the PS1 CD era.

In GOW behind the scenes features, they kept talking about how they wanted Baldur and Kratos to be able to throw each other into mountains. But they cant be throwing players half way across the map without it pausing like we see in those spiderman clips above.

If you think this is just about graphics, you are being obtuse or disingenious or both.
 

SlimySnake

The Contrarian
Do you want me to compile the thousands of posts surrounding SSD/IO in this forum that have been proven to be false so far?

Typical misinformation that is pushed often to hold claim to the mytical ssd/io and the holy grail of fast loading. But lets do an objective comparison using a game where we have a previous baseline. Even though we know you hate that. You can't just use one arbitrary game because every game has a different game size, tech, etc. What matters is how much it has improved versus the baseline. Basically what was the load time before and then afterwards.

Spiderman PS4 Pro vs PS5 (Loading saved game)

26.0 seconds | 2.14 seconds (12x improvement)

Avengers Next Gen Upgrade PS4 Pro vs PS5 (Loading saved game)

1min 2.11 seconds | 4.32 seconds (14x improvement)

So which game has the best load times improvement multiplier? Yes its NOT Spiderman Its actually The Avengers and other games with similar loading improvement multiplier.

If spiderman was ported to other similar platforms, it would load the exact same time.
These are pure numbers. Pure fact.



I hope everyone is reading this. first he says, look how fast you can go in spiderman thanks to the mytical superfast ssd/io
When I respond that I can change the speed of Matrix traversal to match and even go faster than that.
He leashes out and melts down. Why? Because he's not really interested in facts. Its all about spreading misinformation to push the SSD/IO narrative.

Someone who is actually interested in the truth would say "wow i wanna see that so we can compare".

Numbers don't lie, nor are they delusional or need your help.
LMAO. You are compariing loading times that prove that what Mark Cerny promised was 100% accurate and you are using this as a Gotcha? Are you serious? This literally proves me right. How do you not see this?

Who cares if other platforms can have faster loading. The point is that the PS5 has a 5.5 GBps SSD that is complimented by an IO that does not bottleneck it in any other way. I am litreally talking about the{POTENTIAL here you doofus. Literally from the very first post I said it is NOT being fully utilized and it may never be fully utilized. But the POTENTIAL is there and you are so militant you wont even give me that. How sad is that?

Your talk of Matrix makes no sense because the game is able to run off of an HDD. The city demo is 17 GB and almost all of it is in memory anyway. My VRAM usage is 6GB and my System RAM usage is 10 GB. It makes sense that it can run on an HDD becuase they literally load the thing in RAM and are likely swapping in and out of DDR RAM and VRAM. But lets suppose it is able to run off of an HDD then It's exactly what ive been saying this whole time. That devs wont be taking full advantage of the PS5 ssd but your brain is wired to get triggered at the mere suggestion that the PS5 SSD and IO are capable of doing much more than what we have seen from last gen from HDDs.

I mean you were literally shown footage of Spiderman in a game literally being stuck. I can post gifs of similar glitches in Zelda breath of the wild that lets you travel vast distances in seconds and you see the same thing in that game. The game literally pauses while it streams in the next part of the map into memory and continues. These are undeniable facts. Engines were limited by HDD speeds last gen. Everyone has been saying this. And yet your fanboy brain cannot accept this simple fact.
 

Haggard

Banned
How many seamless open world have we had 🤷‍♂️, how many fast paced racing games have we drove through 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️. One type of design philosophy existing doesn't really exclude the other.
and all had limitations which have now been widened further .....which you fail to acknowledge....

In the end thats all it comes down to. Better graphics. This isn't a game design revolution as you've been trying to say 🤷‍♂️.
and once again you fail to realize that the presentation is just as much a part of the game design as the mechanics.....Now devs don`t have to bend and twist their level design and their visuals anymore to get around data stream chokes...
Would you have preferred a game like tlou2 looking like a 10 year old ps3 game just to get around the loding-parts? Just nonsense from your part.
 
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SlimySnake

The Contrarian
DLSS version runs miles better then the old version i had. 1/10th the stutters
The stutters have nothing to do with performance or DLSS. Stutters are gone after you play and explore for a while.

Pressing 1 in the DLSS version will let you toggle DLSS off. You will see that it will run the same without any stutters. Worse performance due to higher internal resolution but no stutters.
 

IDWhite

Neo Member
"It is ignorance not knowing how to distinguish between what needs demonstration and what does not"

--Aristotle​
 
The stutters have nothing to do with performance or DLSS. Stutters are gone after you play and explore for a while.

Pressing 1 in the DLSS version will let you toggle DLSS off. You will see that it will run the same without any stutters. Worse performance due to higher internal resolution but no stutters.
No
This version with DLSS literally has 1/10 the stutters. A few big ones really early and now practically none. The last version I had the big stutters never really went away even after hour's of messing around. Maybe it's compiled differently?
 

Guilty_AI

Member
Wait, so now you are saying that SSDs wont be a game design revolution? You keep changing your stance here. Before it was 'yes, SSDs will make a difference but the PS5 SSD wont' but when presented with actual devs quotes saying how this wont be possible without SSDs, you change your tune to well SSDs wont be a game design revolution? Like at least be consistent man. What is it that you are trying to argue?
I said SSDs "may in some ways", and even elaborated further with "though what they're actually doing is alleviate a bottleneck that was growing through the years of improving processing power". Perhaps indirectly since there are devs who must develop their games with latest graphics possible due to higher influences, as you can see i'm not saying "they will for sure!" in a very enthusiastic manner. And regarding the ps5 i/o or stuff like direct storage, all i'm saying is that they provide further optimizations, no game-"this can only be done here!"-changing stuff.

Talking about absolutes, what is absolutely certain we will get thanks to SSDs are better graphics, and this is most likely everything this'll comes down to, not due to some technical limitation but because there's only so much portal games you can make, assuming the devs that'll be pushing graphics are even creative enough. More clear now?

In GOW behind the scenes features, they kept talking about how they wanted Baldur and Kratos to be able to throw each other into mountains. But they cant be throwing players half way across the map without it pausing like we see in those spiderman clips above.
And horizon devs said it was impossible to implement flying mechanics dues to technical limitations, then went and did it anyway for the cross-gen sequel. Devs can be wrong about this sort of stuff, and quite often are.

If you think this is just about graphics, you are being obtuse or disingenious or both.
But it is. Driver San Francisco for example did all the fast travel features you mentioned in the ps360. And enviroments were quite dense too with loads of pedestrians, cars and destructible enviroments. "But but the graphics are-" yeah, because this is about graphics.

The more you try to think about scenarios that absolutely need these new advancements, the more you see there aren't a whole lot of them that aren't just improving the visuals, much less usable ones that can actually improve the experience. This also goes back to my initial point of "may in some ways", and that in the end this is about graphics.
 
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assurdum

Banned
You never learn, didn't you just get off your month long ban?
Excuse me? An user quote me two times just to provocate and the problem it's me because I was sarcastic to his attitude to engage a member war with lolling posts indeed to have a real discussion?
 
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Guilty_AI

Member
Would you have preferred a game like tlou2 looking like a 10 year old ps3 game just to get around the loding-parts? Just nonsense from your part.
You mean like this 10 year old ps3 game?



I 100% would if it had a more interesting story.

Heck, if the story was good instead of that fanfic stuff we got, i'd play it with ps1 graphics (coughLegacy of kaincough)
 
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Haggard

Banned
You mean like this 10 year old ps3 game?
1. that looks nowhere near lou2 and you know that very well, so cut the crap...
2. That is already the remastered PS4 version...and still looks incomparable.

what is absolutely certain we will get thanks to SSDs are better graphics,
That´s the one part the SSD is not responsible for, that is the GPU. The SSD just enables more dynamic ram usage i.e. for level design, loading times, dynamic changes etc. One could argue that a potent gpu has to be fed adequately, but that alone could be done with an HDD, too.
 
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SlimySnake

The Contrarian
I said SSDs "may in some ways", and even elaborated further with "though what they're actually doing is alleviate a bottleneck that was growing through the years of improving processing power". Perhaps indirectly since there are devs who must develop their games with latest graphics possible due to higher influences, as you can see i'm not saying "they will for sure!" in a very enthusiastic manner. And regarding the ps5 i/o or stuff like direct storage, all i'm saying is that they provide further optimizations, no game-"this can only be done here!"-changing stuff.

Talking about absolutes, what is absolutely certain we will get thanks to SSDs are better graphics, and this is most likely everything this'll comes down to, not due to some technical limitation but because there's only so much portal games you can make, assuming the devs that'll be pushing graphics are even creative enough. More clear now?


And horizon devs said it was impossible to implement flying mechanics dues to technical limitations, then went and did it anyway for the cross-gen sequel. Devs can be wrong about this sort of stuff, and quite often are.


But it is. Driver San Francisco for example did all the fast travel features you mentioned in the ps360. And enviroments were quite dense too with loads of pedestrians, cars and destructible enviroments. "But but the graphics are-" yeah, because this is about graphics.

The more you try to think about scenarios that absolutely need these new advancements, the more you see there aren't a whole lot of them that aren't just improving the visuals, much less usable ones that can actually improve the experience. This also goes back to my initial point of "may in some ways", and that in the end this is about graphics.
I will take may in some ways as an olive branch I guess. Like I said in my original post, I dont think we will see many games will ever fully utilize the PS5 SSD. In fact, I just remembered that I incurred Sony gaf's wrath in the DF Ratchet SSD speed test thread because they were able to run the game on a 3.2 GBps SSD. I said something about how it's overkill and they shouldve invested in a bigger SSD or a bigger GPU instead of a fancy SSD no one is going to ever fully max out.

Regardless, Horizon had flying in the very early prototypes dating back to 2012. Evidence is on youtube. It's just that their streaming tech wasn't capable of pushing the same visual quality while flying. It's been five years since then and I guess they were able to sort out those problems. The flying speed is still very very slow similar to the speed of the jets in GTA5. In many ways, the games have been held back by the same constraints they had back in the PS360 era because Sony and MS cheaped out on the SSDs last gen.

I remember playing Vault of Glass in Destiny and in the final boss fight they send three of your firetream members to a different room in a flash. Clearly that room was always stored in vram. But it was just a room or rather two different rooms and you had to tell your other team members which room you were in. We would call it Mars or Venus thinking it was teleporting us to two different planets but it was the same planet just a different color pallete. Next gen, you can transport them literally on a different planet. To me, that is more than just graphics. It's a level design change that has you hopping from planet to planet in raids similar to how we see Avengers fighting in different places at the same time in movies. We are going to finally have instant fast travel that will open up a lot of different level design choices from switching between different characters a la GTA5 in entirely different areas to bringing in new assets into your world changing the level layout. Is that graphics or level design? Who cares if it changes this dated fucking game design we've been playing since 2005.
 

Guilty_AI

Member
1. that looks nowhere near lou2 and you know that very well, so cut the crap...
I don't give a crap, as long as it does what it sets out to do right.
I'll play many ps1/2 era-looking games or older before i even touch the newest AAA release with all the graphical advancements if the newer game sucks too much in comparison, and many people follow this same philosophy.
 
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Haggard

Banned
I dont think we will see many games will ever fully utilize the PS5 SSD.
Yep. The GPU side`s bandwith is way too limited for big jumps. I think in general it`ll boil down to more nuanced advancements like more freedom in the level design, the retirement of forced "hide-the-loading" chokepoints/animations in levels and maybe a bigger scope in dynamic events.
I don't give a crap, as long as it does what it sets out to do right.
I'll play many ps1/2 era-looking games or older before i even touch the newest AAA release if the newer game sucks too much in comparison, and many people follow this same philosophy.
Doesn`t change anything. You`re still talking absolute nonsense. The technological difference is there and very visible, that is a simple fact.
If you are satisifed with tetris and pong graphics, then that`s your thing, but don`t go looking down on technological advancements you seemingly don`t even understand.
 
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Guilty_AI

Member
Doesn`t change anything. You`re still talking absolute nonsense. The technological difference is there and very visible.
If you are satisifed with tetris and pong, then that`s your thing, but don`t go playing down technological advancements.
Of course its there, but all the "game design" advancements people are playing up have been around for years. Thats the point. No need for Pong graphics to achieve it either.
 
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Haggard

Banned
Of course its there, but all the "game design" advancements people are playing up have been around for years. Thats the point.
Nowhere near this quality and scope, that`s the point.
We will never again see a true revolution like the 2d-3d transition if that`s what you mean.
Edit: maybe if someone invents the brain-pc bridge and VR advances to "ready player one"-level, but that´s probably not gonna happen in my lifetime....
 
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Guilty_AI

Member
Nowhere near this quality and scope, that`s the point.
Quality indeed no, but scope definitely has. If anything, some older games seem to have far more ambitious scopes than newer ones.
We will never again see a true revolution like the 2d-3d transition if that`s what you mean.
No need to go that far, just make a modern Daggerfall in a cyberpunk setting and i'll be happy. Could have ps2 graphics for all i care if that meant achieving the proper results.
 
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assurdum

Banned
Yep. The GPU side`s bandwith is way too limited for big jumps. I think in general it`ll boil down to more nuanced advancements like more freedom in the level design, the retirement of forced "hide-the-loading" chokepoints/animations in levels and maybe a bigger scope in dynamic events.

Doesn`t change anything. You`re still talking absolute nonsense. The technological difference is there and very visible, that is a simple fact.
If you are satisifed with tetris and pong graphics, then that`s your thing, but don`t go looking down on technological advancements you seemingly don`t even understand.
IMO faster SSD can be used also to load more graphic data thanks to the faster streaming, as more various graphic assets and probably wider/complex area but of course until the whole hardware can support such amount of data. It's not true a faster SSD not helps to improve the graphic fidelity as most of the people believe.
 
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Haggard

Banned
Could have ps2 graphics for all i care
and that mindset is why you fail to see the leaps other people are seeing. I really don´t know how to explain what an herculean feat it is to have interactive games looking like r&c, forza, Horizon FW etc while being near seamless everywhere. Not so long ago we had 30s+ loading screens every time we just wanted to teleport a few meters across a given level or open a door ,with graphics where most objects didn`t even cast shadows and looked like someone vomited all over it. Now we have playable demos looking like well, the demo this thread is about speaks for itself.
It boggles my mind that some people can just shrug this off.
 
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Guilty_AI

Member
and that mindset is why you fail to see the leaps other people are seeing. I really don´t know how to explain what an herculean feat it is to have interactive games looking like r&c, forza, Horizon FW etc while being near seamless everywhere. Not so long ago we had 30s+ loading screens every time we just wanted to teleport a few meters across a given level or open a door ,with graphics where most objects didn`t even cast shadows and looked like someone vomited all over it.
It boggles my mind that some people can just shrug this off.
No one is shruging this off. But games are games, you can drool over these new visuals all you want, but simply looking good isn't what they're all about.
A game with Matrix Awakens visuals that has boring story and mechanics will still be objectively worse than a 2D pixel game with really enganging story, addictive mechanics and creative inovations.
 

Haggard

Banned
No one is shruging this off. But games are games, you can drool over these new visuals all you want, but simply looking good isn't what they're all about.
A game with Matrix Awakens visuals that has boring story and mechanics will still be objectively worse than a 2D pixel game with really enganging story, addictive mechanics and creative inovations.
Bad games will always exist, that is not tech-dependent. But good games can be even better with tech advancements.
 

vpance

Member
If all we can come out of this gen with is Matrix Awakens tier visuals with mostly last gen gameplay, I think I would call that a win at this point, lol.
 
Even after the years of debunking, you people still wont let the magical super fast uber SSD/IO myth die.
Even after loading times analysis have been virtually identical. Remember we had to deal with people initially pushing the myth that other platforms would need an elevator.

Tonight, I will change the traversal speed in the matrix and go even faster than that gif. All on a SATA SSD, with no IO optimization (DirectStorage) or GPU decompression (RTXIO) Will that change your thinking? Nope. It seems like facts don't matter



Do you ever think, is what am saying actually the truth? like can I actually prove it?

You do realize that we have access to all the textures and assets of spiderman? Right?
So you can know what the average size of all their textures. is it 512k, 1024k, 2048k or all 4096k textures like Matrix demo?

A single window in the Matrix demo has more triangles than probably all of the spiderman open world section.

Yes that's over 3.1 MILLION TRIANGLES for one window!


All textures ARE 4k
A single building has ~3,000 materials
Like come on, its like you people are not even trying logically
So SSD/IO is bullshit and Sony, Microsoft, Epic and NVidia were all lying? Why? To waste their own time developing their technologies?

If a single window in the Matrix demo has more triangles than all of the Spider-man open world section then that explains why it runs like shit. What a waste of resources, did they outsource that window to the guy that made Final Fantasy Origins? :messenger_tears_of_joy:

Do you really believe the nonsense you write?
 
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Danjin44

The nicest person on this forum
Bad games will always exist, that is not tech-dependent. But good games can be even better with tech advancements.
But more advance tech costs money and resources and that means devs less willing to take chances on unique gameplay.

Also most AAA devs use “tech advancements” to make their games more “pretty” rather than for actual gameplay.
 
In the end thats all it comes down to. Better graphics. This isn't a game design revolution as you've been trying to say 🤷‍♂️.
When was it ever about something else? have you ever said that the SSD had nothing to do with "graphics"?
So SSD/IO is bullshit and Sony, Microsoft, Epic and NVidia were all lying? Why? To waste their own time developing their technologies?
Sometimes everybody is wrong.
 

rodrigolfp

Member
Even after the years of debunking, you people still wont let the magical super fast uber SSD/IO myth die.
Even after loading times analysis have been virtually identical. Remember we had to deal with people initially pushing the myth that other platforms would need an elevator.

Tonight, I will change the traversal speed in the matrix and go even faster than that gif. All on a SATA SSD, with no IO optimization (DirectStorage) or GPU decompression (RTXIO) Will that change your thinking? Nope. It seems like facts don't matter



Do you ever think, is what am saying actually the truth? like can I actually prove it?

You do realize that we have access to all the textures and assets of spiderman? Right?
So you can know what the average size of all their textures. is it 512k, 1024k, 2048k or all 4096k textures like Matrix demo?

A single window in the Matrix demo has more triangles than probably all of the spiderman open world section.

Yes that's over 3.1 MILLION TRIANGLES for one window!


All textures ARE 4k
A single building has ~3,000 materials
Like come on, its like you people are not even trying logically
 
When guy i was talking to was saying stuff like "redefine game design"
It was explained how that would also impact game design, when you don't have to worry about loading at all, of very minimally... it ends up making a difference.

Obviously, you may not care for the impact, and you surely can disagree about the buzz word. It demains that it does "something" by giving devs and artists more freedom (which is not always a good thing).
 

I Master l

Member
Isnt UE5 suppose to significantly boost the performace compared to UE4 thanks to Occlusion Culling ?
I guess Lumen is the reason we didnt see Ninate performace benefits
 
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DaGwaphics

Member
It was explained how that would also impact game design, when you don't have to worry about loading at all, of very minimally... it ends up making a difference.

Obviously, you may not care for the impact, and you surely can disagree about the buzz word. It demains that it does "something" by giving devs and artists more freedom (which is not always a good thing).

Agreed. Even moving to a SATA SSD requirement would likely change level design for the better. We haven't really seen it much yet since we don't have much next-gen only software, but it should be obvious once we get there. That's when we'll be able to see how efficient the IO on the consoles is and how much it helps them to punch above their weight. Not an attack at all on PC either, since you can brute force more effectively there.
 

PaintTinJr

Member
Even after the years of debunking, you people still wont let the magical super fast uber SSD/IO myth die.
Even after loading times analysis have been virtually identical. ..
I think what you are trying to say is unclear.

Are you saying: 1) that the IO complex - a highspeed nano-processor telecoms switch of sorts - in the PS5 doesn't exist - and is just a sticker?
or 2) that it works and is specified as claimed, but only works as fast a zlib on zen2 cores with normal SSD access - and can't reach a fraction of Cerny's claimed numbers?

And
On the analysis side: Which games are "you" - not any other user - claiming uses the IO complex fully with the ssd and only manages a 12x improvement?

The assumption that it was being used was pretty much debunked around here when games were taking more than multiple times the raw read speed of the SSD - without decompression multiplier - to fill 12GBs of RAM on most games, and the only confirmation we've had that the system is partially used was in R&C AFAIK. So are you now saying it is used in everything to its full potential and still doing worse than the base PS4 loading Ghost of Tsushima with a mechanical drive using Kraken/odoole on the liverpool Chip?

Every generation PlayStation's(and Xbox's and Nintendo's) new hardware gets used meaningfully in games. Why would you doubt that Kojima - that has complimented PS hardware every gen - won't do the same again, this gen - with or with a custom UE5? Or is that not what you mean when you say debunking?
 
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winjer

Gold Member
Isnt UE5 suppose to significantly boost the performace compared to UE4 thanks to Occlusion Culling ?
I guess Lumen is the reason we didnt see Ninate performace benefits

No. Nanite is about having rendering meshes with no more detail than there are pixels to show it. Basically a very optimized way of doing high detail LODs.
UE4 already had several Occlusion Culling methods for geometry. Be it hardware or software.
----------------------------------------------------

On a related thing, I just found a new command that might help reducing hitching.
Having a greater value allows to store more nanite data in memory, reducing IO access.
Having a value to big, causes artifacts in the nanite meshes.
I set mine to 1500. Higher values and I started to have artifacts.
But people with GPUs with more vram, probably can have higher value.
Default is 512


r.Nanite.Streaming.StreamingPoolSize
 
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