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Analysis DF - Xbox Series X Silicon Breakdown: Hot Chips 2020 Analysis

Fake

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Xbox Series X is back in the spotlight following a fascinating presentation from Microsoft's silicon architects at the Hot Chips 2020 symposium. But what does it all mean? What new information do we get, and what more have we learned about AMD's RDNA 2 graphics architecture? Rich has some thoughts...

 
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LordOfChaos

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DF thinks RT implementation in consoles will not be that great, which makes sense. Good video. Hopefully this doesn’t mean the PC cards will have weak RT.

It would look to me like AMD is trying to support ray tracing with minimum dedicated hardware overhead. Probably so that they can try to match Nvidia on traditional rasterization performance without blowing up die size. A TMU can either texture or do a BVH for ray tracing each cycle, so it's shared silicon where you have to sacrifice one or another, unlike Tensor cores/RT cores.

There's of course a lot more brute force on PC. Up to 80 CUs vs 52 and it scales with CU count x clock speed.
 
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Fake

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DF thinks RT implementation in consoles will not be that great, which makes sense. Good video. Hopefully this doesn’t mean the PC cards will have weak RT.

I disagree. RT from consoles will be most surprising yet just like cb render was this gen.
People praise so much the Nvidia reconstruction tech, but the checkerboard ideia begin this current gen, at small feet, but still was a long way until we came with better solutions.

Now, if they talking about PC RT> Consoles RT now thats I agree. Kinda obvious in fact.
 
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LordOfChaos

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I disagree. RT from consoles will be most surprising yet just like cb render was this gen.
People praise so much the Nvidia reconstruction tech, but the checkerboard ideia begin this current gen, at small feet, but still was a long way until we came with better solutions.

Now, if they talking about PC RT> Consoles RT now thats I agree. Kinda obvious in fact.

Why do you think so? You can either use a TMU to texture or to do a BVH, there's a very direct tradeoff between raster and RT performance in these consoles.

I think the way this generation is going to go is RT is going to remain a corrective technique, GI, shadows, some reflections, but most will want to keep that TMU performance for traditional rasterization.
 

Evilms

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I have been reply banned, but my post left as the community has corrected and embarassed me below. I will try and understand technical chats before entering them.
XSX RDNA2 GPU is basically RDNA1 with Ray tracing features.
For DF the RDNA 2 is much identical to RDNA 1.0 GPU composition.
 
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Fake

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Why do you think so? You can either use a TMU to texture or to do a BVH, there's a very direct tradeoff between raster and RT performance in these consoles.

I think the way this generation is going to go is RT is going to remain a corrective technique, GI, shadows, some reflections, but most will want to keep that TMU performance for traditional rasterization.

Because we don't know for sure how will be implemented.
We're just use information that we already know. Imagining they using something new, maybe a better way to use or something never used before.

I guess thats the role point of consoles: Overhelm some obstacle using new techniques.

I mean, have you wonder why PC gamers would use some sort of reconstruct tech if they already have resolution options at their service?
 
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gamechanger87

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Hmm...

The same goes for 3D audio, which has made me think a lot about marketing and presentation. Sony made a remarkable pitch for a revolution in 3D audio with PlayStation 5 with its Tempest Engine, talking about hundreds of audio sources accurately positioned in 3D space - yet Microsoft has essentially made the same pitch with its own hardware, which also has the HRTF support that the Tempest Engine has. Microsoft hasn't made any specific promises about mapping 3D audio to the individual's specific HRTF, but then again, Sony hasn't really told us how it plans to get that data for each player. I'll be interested to see how this all shakes out once the consoles are out and software is available.
 

JTCx

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XSX RDNA2 GPU is basically RDNA1 with Ray tracing features.
For DF the RDNA 2 is much identical to RDNA 1.0 GPU composition.
 

DarkMage619

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I enjoyed the video it was cool to get all the details without commentary from detractors. I'd like to see one for PS5 too.
 

psorcerer

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A TMU can either texture or do a BVH for ray tracing each cycle, so it's shared silicon where you have to sacrifice one or another, unlike Tensor cores/RT cores.

You cannot Tex and Rt in parallel on Turing (fact).
Ampere will feature revised RT blocks colocated with TMU (rumor).
 

psorcerer

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You can either use a TMU to texture or to do a BVH, there's a very direct tradeoff between raster and RT performance in these consoles.

If you think about it a little it's clear why it's like that. Hint: both do a memory gather, you have only one memory controller.
 

cryptoadam

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RT is just to expensive for consoles at this point.

What we will probably see is limited and low rez RT, and probably locked to special modes. So you can chose 4K 30, or 1440 dynamic with RT (or maybe even 1080P).
 

THE:MILKMAN

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I just had a read of the written article for this and the last paragraph makes it even clearer how disappointed Rich and presumably DF and the wider media as a whole are about Sony seeming to have dropped the media entirely. We knew they sat out E3 and GC but it seems they have gone even further than that.

Going nearly full Nintendo in being a faceless company is pretty sad. Maybe a lot of this is down to the pandemic but I'm doubting that right now.

Anyone else bothered by this? I know many here don't rate DF that highly these days but if they feel they have been given the cold shoulder from Sony then this might explain some of the bias talked about?
 
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mejin

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I just had a read of the written article for this and the last paragraph makes it even clearer how disappointed Rich and presumably DF and the wider media as a whole are about Sony seeming to have dropped the media entirely. We knew they sat out E3 and GC but it seems they have gone even further than that.

Going nearly full Nintendo in being a faceless company is pretty sad. Maybe a lot of this is down to the pandemic but I'm doubting that right now.

Anyone else bothered by this? I know many here don't rate DF that highly these days but if they feel they have been given the cold shoulder from Sony then this might explain some of the bias talked about?

it's just better to talk directly to the users.
 

THE:MILKMAN

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it's just better to talk directly to the users.

Well they haven't even been doing that but I get the point! The problem seems to be Sony are going the Nintendo Direct route but haven't informed DF. Rich makes it sound like they are bewildered about being in the dark re: PS5 to the point he mentions it in a Xbox article/video.
 
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Fake

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Well they haven't even been doing that but I get the point! The problem seems to be Sony are going the Nintendo Direct route but haven't informed DF. Rich makes it sound like they are bewildered about being in the dark re: PS5 to the point he mentions it in a Xbox article/video.

In this case is DF fault because Sony is now looking foward to compete with Nintendo instead of Microsoft. I guess they don't get yet.
 
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Fake

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There is no competition between Sony and Nintendo. One compliments the other but there is no way Sony or Nintendo can be seen as competitors.

Yes, there is. In fact, Sony is acting much more like Nintendo this year. For the porpuse of brand (exclusives sell, online events, praising indies, traditions, JRPG).
Both now follow the same route. Microsoft took a different route ( focus in GAAS) .
 
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pawel86ck

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Richard say BC games running on XSX need to be write and load 9GB, so that's 18GB in totall. BC games are still not using BCpack compression, so I expect games for XSX will load in around 3 seconds.
 
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TGO

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Sony hasn't really told us how it plans to get that data for each player. I'll be interested to see how this all shakes out once the consoles are out and software is available.
Just a wild guess, but my phone has 360 Audio and it uses the camera to calibrate to your ears
So wouldn't the new PS Camera do the same?
 

waxer

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Shows only bc games. We can't compare until retail software = we can't compare because Craig. Lol

I actually quite like Richards talking as he makes such subtle jabs his fans will like. Clever guy. Was a good watch even with that.
Seems weird to bring up the hrtf without anything to back it up after mentioning secret sauce or was that part of hotchip he just didn't show.

Either way both consoles supporting better sound is going to be great. Ue5 even on shitty pack in cell headphones sounds better than any demo I've found on YouTube of atmos etc
 
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XSX RDNA2 GPU is basically RDNA1 with Ray tracing features.
For DF the RDNA 2 is much identical to RDNA 1.0 GPU composition.

Along with hardware support for RT, VRS, Sampler Feedback, and Mesh Shading on Xbox Series X so not exactly the same as RDNA1. RDNA 2 features, if utilized correctly, cannot be replicated on RDNA 1 hardware
 
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splattered

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Holy crap so at the end of the day basically these systems are very similar and the only real differences are PS5 has a faster SSD and XSX has stronger graphics capabilities. Oh and the fancy Dualsense triggers. Tempest Engine ended up being a great big nothingburger if XSX is indeed as capable as DF is claiming.
 

Black_Stride

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Holy crap so at the end of the day basically these systems are very similar and the only real differences are PS5 has a faster SSD and XSX has stronger graphics capabilities. Oh and the fancy Dualsense triggers. Tempest Engine ended up being a great big nothingburger if XSX is indeed as capable as DF is claiming.

Did people think the Tempest Engine was anything other than?

Remember when apple was talking about "retina" screens and all your apple fanboy friends would tell you how this is the greatest thing to happen to eyes since opening?
When there were phones out their that dwarfed the PPI of Retina displays?

Well this is exactly the same situation....one company makes a big deal about essentially the baseline and fanboys assume it has to be something magical and beyond comprehension of the peasant competition.
 

MrFunSocks

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Did people think the Tempest Engine was anything other than?

Remember when apple was talking about "retina" screens and all your apple fanboy friends would tell you how this is the greatest thing to happen to eyes since opening?
When there were phones out their that dwarfed the PPI of Retina displays?

Well this is exactly the same situation....one company makes a big deal about essentially the baseline and fanboys assume it has to be something magical and beyond comprehension of the peasant competition.
Where have you been the last week? Tempest is, or at least was, the secret sauce now! It will be used as a second CPU/GPU making the PS5 more powerful than the X! Every game is going to be raining 100% of the time because we need to hear where every individual drop is landing, despite not even being able to do it in real life, because that’s what’s most important this generation.
 

Yoboman

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Yes, there is. In fact, Sony is acting much more like Nintendo this year. For the porpuse of brand (exclusives sell, online events, praising indies, traditions, JRPG).
Both now follow the same route. Microsoft took a different route ( focus in GAAS) .
But Sony has been doing that since 2012
 

Redlight

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Just a wild guess, but my phone has 360 Audio and it uses the camera to calibrate to your ears
So wouldn't the new PS Camera do the same?
I think that's likely. From what I understand there's only 5 profiles available so you'd probably do better to cycle through the options until you find the profile you like the best.
 

-Arcadia-

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Something that occurred to me while watching this, is the sheer amount of incredible engineering, top minds, and many hundreds of thousands of hours... to bring our simple play/relax time to life.

Granted, an industry will spring up around anything with cash to spare, of course, but it's just a bit... humbling?
 

Dolomite

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Something that occurred to me while watching this, is the sheer amount of incredible engineering, top minds, and many hundreds of thousands of hours... to bring our simple play/relax time to life.

Granted, an industry will spring up around anything with cash to spare, of course, but it's just a bit... humbling?
All that ingenuity, years of R&D, and collaboration with partners like AMD just to be shat on by armchair devs on forums