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[ManaByte]

And let me cite american (!!!) historian Martin J Sherwin: "The evidence has become overwhelming that it was the entry of the Soviet Union on 8 August into the war against Japan that forced surrender but, understandably, this view is very difficult for Americans to accept."

Just admit you would've rather have seen a MILLION people die in a long and brutal guerilla war instead of 300K and we can move on.

 

[Julius Ibidus]

And I remember, "resolve" and all (I guess radiation was needed to address it) and, of course, major formation of Japanese troops surrendering in a matter of days in Manjuria doesn't disprove "resolve" as it is that special, convenient type of resolve, that was specifically in the mainland.

yes, when your homeland is directly threatened you do indeed form a 'resolve' to protect it at all costs. just ask Hannibal about that one. it's the reason (that 'resolve') you're speaking the language you are right now.

 

[llien]

Maybe study history

American (I presume) telling anyone on this planet to "study history" is hilarious on many levels, pardon my chauvinism.

Hiroshima: 20k soldiers, 70-126k civilians killed.
Nagasaki: what, 200 soldiers??? 40-80k civilians killed

 

[ManaByte]

And let me cite american (!!!) historian Martin J Sherwin: "The evidence has become overwhelming that it was the entry of the Soviet Union on 8 August into the war against Japan that forced surrender but, understandably, this view is very difficult for Americans to accept."

Allow me to quote Hirohito:

Despite the best that has been done by every one—the gallant fighting of military and naval forces, the diligence and assiduity of Our servants of the State and the devoted service of Our one hundred million people, the war situation has developed not necessarily to Japan's advantage, while the general trends of the world have all turned against her interest. Moreover, the enemy now possesses a new and terrible weapon with the power to destroy many innocent lives and do incalculable damage. Should we continue to fight, not only would it result in an ultimate collapse and obliteration of the Japanese nation, but also it would lead to the total extinction of human civilization. Such being the case, how are we to save the millions of our subjects, or to atone ourselves before the hallowed spirits of our imperial ancestors? This is the reason why we have ordered the acceptance of the provisions of the joint declaration of the powers.

 

[INC]

American (I presume) telling anyone on this planet to "study history" is hilarious on many levels, pardon my chauvinism.

Hiroshima: 20k soldiers, 70-126k civilians killed.
Nagasaki: what, 200 soldiers??? 40-80k civilians killed

Japan wasn't exactly the good guy tho

From the invasion of China in 1937 to the end of World War II, the Japanese military regime murdered near 3,000,000 to over 10,000,000 people, most probably almost 6,000,000 Chinese, Indonesians, Koreans, Filipinos, and Indochinese, among others, including Western prisoners of war.

 

[llien]

a MILLION people die in a long and brutal guerilla war

I admit, actual facts are not going to beat your imagination, but 1.7 million army vs 1 million army.
What was it, 2 weeks, 12k deaths on Soviet side.

Yay, millions "in guerilla war", unless radiation is used.
Very convenient.

 

[ManaByte]

I admit, actual facts are not going to beat your imagination, but 1.7 million army vs 1 million army.
What was it, 2 weeks, 12k deaths on Soviet side.

Yay, millions "in guerilla war", unless radiation is used.
Very convenient.

It wasn't just the army that was going to defend Japan. They were going to use civilians to defend against Operation Downfall.

Get your nose out of your manga and anime and study WWII.

 

[llien]

Allow me to quote Hirohito: ...the enemy now possesses a new and terrible weapon ...

Is he referring to the bombing of Hiroshima or bombing of Nagasaki?
(a rhetorical question)

 

[ManaByte]

Is he referring to the bombing of Hiroshima or bombing of Nagasaki?
(a rhetorical question)

Yes, that's his message to Japan when they surrendered after Nagasaki.

 

[Julius Ibidus]

I admit, actual facts are not going to beat your imagination, but 1.7 million army vs 1 million army.

Genghis Kahn's brother in law obliterated 70,000 Georgian troops with only 15,000 of his own. what exactly is your point?

 

[ManaByte]

Genghis Kahn's brother in law obliterated 70,000 Georgian troops with only 15,000 of his own. what exactly is your point?

After the surrender, they found that the Japanese had 2,400 suicide boats and 177 human torpedoes to defend against the invasion. It would not have been pretty.

 

[Julius Ibidus]

After the surrender, they found that the Japanese had 2,400 suicide boats and 177 human torpedoes to defend against the invasion. It would not have been pretty.

would have been hell on Earth, and that's what they wanted to bring to the invaders.

 

[ManaByte]

would have been hell on Earth, and that's what they wanted to bring to the invaders.

Shame that some people would've rather seen that.

 

[Julius Ibidus]

Shame that some people would've rather seen that.

like there needed to be more of it during that war. one of the parts of the war i have the hardest time thinking about (on top of all the other horrors that happened) is the Eastern front, and what happened there. thank God it wasn't as documented by the media at the time as other parts of the war were. truly hell on Earth.

 

[ManaByte]

like there needed to be more of it during that war. one of the parts of the war i have the hardest time thinking about (on top of all the other horrors that happened) is the Eastern front, and what happened there. thank God it wasn't as documented by the media at the time as other parts of the war were. truly hell on Earth.

I don't think some people understand that modern Japan with their manga, anime, and videogames is not even remotely the same as Japan during WWII.

 

[Julius Ibidus]

I don't think some people understand that modern Japan with their manga, anime, and videogames is not even remotely the same as Japan during WWII.

yeah, things have certainly changed all around the world since that time, such a different era, almost alien to some extent.

 

[GamingKaiju]

I would say the Marshall plan to rebuild Countries post WW2 did more to win over nations to the US.

From a military POV the bomb was necessary to shorten the war and save life’s. The japs had proven themselves a powerful foe in the pacific theatre and by the time American forces had taken Okinawa they were spent, ofc the forces in Europe would be used but 1 million lives on day 1 alone were expected by the allies.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Seemed like the bombs stopped the war to me, although Japan was stubborn and it took two atomic bombs. Then they called it quits.

 

[ManaByte]

Seemed like the bombs stopped the war to me, although Japan was stubborn and it took two atomic bombs. Then they called it quits.

 

[Julius Ibidus]

I would say the Marshall plan to rebuild Countries post WW2 did more to win over nations to the US.

From a military POV the bomb was necessary to shorten the war and save life’s. The japs had proven themselves a powerful foe in the pacific theatre and by the time American forces had taken Okinawa they were spent, ofc the forces in Europe would be used but 1 million lives on day 1 alone were expected by the allies.

yeah, after the debacle that happened post-war WW1, it's amazing that the Marshall plan was implemented. learning from history, i suppose.

 

[Northeastmonk]

Hiroo Onoda didn’t think the war was over, so he stayed in the Philippines for 29 years. He went back to Japan, wasn’t exactly thrilled about what he saw, and went to live in Brazil.

 

[ManaByte]

Hiroo Onoda didn’t think the war was over, so he stayed in the Philippines for 29 years. He went back to Japan, wasn’t exactly thrilled about what he saw, and went to live in Brazil.

Returned to Japan in 1974...didn't like what he saw...

 

[GamingKaiju]

yeah, after the debacle that happened post-war WW1, it's amazing that the Marshall plan was implemented. learning from history, i suppose.

Most definitely. The treaty of versailles was fucked up and made a mess of Germany afterwards. Rebuilding nations is the better option, sadly we aren’t doing that anymore.

 

[Julius Ibidus]

Returned to Japan in 1974...didn't like what he saw...

hey, pal! this guy was still around:

 

[Gp1]

Doolittle fire bombed Tokyo and it didn't chip away at Japan's resolve at all.

Doolittle raid was a operation to boost the American morale. From Pearl to Midway the US were on a defensive instance. Doolittle was one of the first times at the pacific war that the US took the initiative.

Some one said that the second bomb was unnecessary. As i said, the Japanese minister cabinet were dreadlocked between surrender and keep up fighting until the last minute.
Both Hiroshima and Nagasaki were industrial cities that were "barely" bombed before the A-bomb. Nagasaki had 90% of its population working on industries that were prime suppliers for the IJN. And besides the industries, Hiroshima was the home of the 2nd army responsible for the defense of the entire southern Japan. Exactly were the combats were happening in Okinawa and would happen in case of an invasion. And was a major communication hub too.

That's why they were chosen.
​

edit: 6m troops in a 71m population in Japan at the end of WW2. People tends to forget that a house to house fight in a environment like this would be preceded by a massive air campaign at a time were indiscriminate bombing were the norm. Imagine only the civilian casualties...

like there needed to be more of it during that war. one of the parts of the war i have the hardest time thinking about (on top of all the other horrors that happened) is the Eastern front, and what happened there. thank God it wasn't as documented by the media at the time as other parts of the war were. truly hell on Earth.

To imagine that some countries were trampled by the Gerrman army, occupied a year or so and then trampled back by the Red army...

 

[ManaByte]

Nagasaki had 90% of its population working on industries that were prime suppliers for the IJN. And besides the industries

Yea Nagasaki had two huge shipyards that supplied the navy.

 

[Julius Ibidus]

To imagine that some countries were trampled by the Gerrman army, occupied a year or so and then trampled back by the Red army...​

oh god, to imagine being a Red Army soldier and coming across a village where all of the Russian women and children had been raped and crucified, then years later doing the same thing to German women and children. it's just unimaginable. war is hell.

 

[Kev Kev]

 

[Blond]

It was not necessary at all, Japan was beaten, USSR was moving all tank divisions to the Eastern front ready to steamroll the Japanese.
The fuck did you guys study at school?

We have a circle jerk over the military here. Even me being a military brat who has an appreciation of all who served I can’t deny that some people just believe in what they’re doing so they can sleep at night...

 

[Julius Ibidus]

We have a circle jerk over the military here. Even me being a military brat who has an appreciation of all who served I can’t deny that some people just believe in what they’re doing so they can sleep at night...

no. it's merely the difference between understanding history after it's happened versus understanding it as it is happening. there are countless examples in history when, during the course of a war, one side pulled back on their effort and inevitably regretted it, sometimes deeply. if they'd had the hindsight view of history they would have no doubt changed their decision, but they were living it, not looking back on it. justification at the time was survival, and it's easy to judge decisions and consequences after the fact, yet nearly impossible to understand the uncertainty involved with the creation of those decision at the time they were made, and the consequences they wrought.

for a nation, the point of war is to destroy the enemy, so that it can continue to provide the most basic function of societies: security, or as you said, 'so they can sleep at night'.

 

[llien]

Genghis Kahn's brother in law obliterated 70,000 Georgian troops with only 15,000 of his own. what exactly is your point?

What does that have to do with... anything?

The point which you've missed, I guess, was that "millions of casualties if we don't kill another 100k civilians" is BS, a million of Japanese soldiers fled/surrendered (600k+) while killing only 12k of the advancing force (which was not exactly known for sparing lives of own soldiers).
The same army that had fought fiercely before.

The war was over.

Seemed like the bombs stopped the war to me, although Japan was stubborn and it took two atomic bombs. Then they called it quits.

At best it was about "we want to capture Japan before Soviets do".

2 bombs came within 3 days.
Japanese emperor announced he was going to surrender 6 days after second bomb, actually signing anything happened only 2 more weeks later.

Try to explain the "stubborn" theory.

 

[llien]

Yes, that's his message to Japan when they surrendered after Nagasaki.

So dude saw that weapons were deadly, after about 40-80k civilians were killed, right?
Killing 120k+ in Hiroshima wasn't impressive enough, righ.

 

[llien]

The military’s argument was that Japan could convince the Soviet Union to mediate on its behalf for better surrender terms than unconditional surrender and therefore should continue the war until that was achieved.

Once the USSR entered the war, the Japanese military not only had no arguments for continuation left, but it also feared the Soviet Union would occupy significant parts of northern Japan.

 

[Julius Ibidus]

What does that have to do with... anything?

the point is that nothing is certain in war. this is shown time and time again in history. you have the luxury of hindsight, those during that time, making decisions, did not. and when you are a nation in a war, the 'point' is to destroy the threat to your nation. it's not complicated.

 

[Reptars Revenge]

Well definitely after dropping the second, showing we weren't just a one hit wonder.

 

[ManaByte]

So dude saw that weapons were deadly, after about 40-80k civilians were killed, right?
Killing 120k+ in Hiroshima wasn't impressive enough, righ.

You can ignore history all you want. That look's all on you.

 

[llien]

You can ignore history

I am not sure if it means 'yes' or 'no'.

 

[Chiggs]

The nukes were dropped on Japan to show Russia what was what, and to deter them from occupying Japan (they had just invaded Japan, actually), which America eventually ended up doing.

For more fun:

What if Japan had invaded Russia at the same time Germany did? Russia goes kaput.

 

[Amiga]

And on "America has become.. by nuking" that is one weirdo take on things.

At the end of WWII USA has emerged as super power:
1) At manufacturing (what was it, a carrier a month or even faster)
2) Technology (radars played key role in defeating Japanese fleets)
3) Science (US gathered hands down the best scientists of the world and in large numbers)
4) And overall was the richest nation on Earth.

it wasn't a one country show, the US was leading the western bloc and NATO. the USSR was a totalitarian system overbearing on an eastern bloc full of other totalitarian systems. by it's nature the eastern bloc didn't trust or support each other. a number of would be members of the eastern bloc became part the non aligned organization.

 

[bitbydeath]

Nah, I’d argue it was Hollywood, and yes I’m being serious.

 

[Julius Ibidus]

Nah, I’d argue it was Hollywood, and yes I’m being serious.

i could agree with a lot of the arguments that would support that, yeah, cool!

 

[M1chl]

See? Someone paid attention in school.

Who does not know that tho? Werner von Braun, etc. Pretty good museum in Peenemünde, I think he always had that plan to look on other planets.

 

[Grand Theft Scratchy]

Japan wasn't exactly the good guy tho

From the invasion of China in 1937 to the end of World War II, the Japanese military regime murdered near 3,000,000 to over 10,000,000 people, most probably almost 6,000,000 Chinese, Indonesians, Koreans, Filipinos, and Indochinese, among others, including Western prisoners of war.

I remember learning about Imperial Japan during World War II and our history teacher went into detail about the Nanking Massacre and Unit 731. Absolutely gut-wrenching.

But the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were a kind of necessary evil to end the war sooner, or else the U.S. and allies would have invaded Japan and more lives would have been lost along with more uses of nuclear weapons.

 

[tsumake]

American (I presume) telling anyone on this planet to "study history" is hilarious on many levels, pardon my chauvinism.

Hiroshima: 20k soldiers, 70-126k civilians killed.
Nagasaki: what, 200 soldiers??? 40-80k civilians killed

I find this “we know history” banter cute. Perhaps pub conversation counts as intellectual discussion on the continent

 

[tsumake]

We also should not forget that Robert Oppenheimer's father was from Europe, putting the A-bomb on the long list of inventions the “migrated” to the US. This immense brain drain from all over the world was what made America great in the first place, but now the merits of immigrating there have become almost non-existent. If the EU plays its card right, the world super power status might actually come home to the old continent.

So, you’re saying the honor of atomic bomb belongs to Euope?

 

[Deleted member 17706]

And let me cite american (!!!) historian Martin J Sherwin: "The evidence has become overwhelming that it was the entry of the Soviet Union on 8 August into the war against Japan that forced surrender but, understandably, this view is very difficult for Americans to accept."

I hate that the nukes were used, but without them, it's entirely possible that Japan would have ended up surrendering to the Soviets instead. Now, whether or not this would have been preferable certainly depends on your perspective, but it would have been a very different world had that happened.

We also should not forget that Robert Oppenheimer's father was from Europe, putting the A-bomb on the long list of inventions the “migrated” to the US. This immense brain drain from all over the world was what made America great in the first place, but now the merits of immigrating there have become almost non-existent. If the EU plays its card right, the world super power status might actually come home to the old continent.

Name checks out. Modern Germany is certainly doing a better job of taking over continental Europe than Hitler ever did.

 

[ManaByte]

I remember learning about Imperial Japan during World War II and our history teacher went into detail about the Nanking Massacre and Unit 731. Absolutely gut-wrenching.

It’s crazy how Doolittle landed in free China and back then they were on our side because of that.

 

[tsumake]

I hate that the nukes were used, but without them, it's entirely possible that Japan would have ended up surrendering to the Soviets instead. Now, whether or not this would have been preferable certainly depends on your perspective, but it would have been a very different world had that happened.



Name checks out. Modern Germany is certainly doing a better job of taking over continental Europe than Hitler ever did.

Well, they are Europe’s bank.

 

[Pol Pot]

The End of World War II 1945 | The National WWII Museum | New Orleans

Explore articles, web series, podcast episodes, live webinars and more from the Museum about the end of World War II.

www.nationalww2museum.org

1945
Almost 76 years ago. Horrific tragedy. All of it.

I think humans love that shit.

 

[AJUMP23]

America didn't land on the moon, the germans made it possible

Those Germans became Americans. Also the first 2 guys and the rest of the bunch that have been to the moon. All American citizens.