Digital Foundry - Do we actually need a PS5 Pro?

kraspkibble

Permabanned.
Rather they do a cut down streamlined looking version that doesn’t look like such a monstrosity
i'm sure we'll get a PS5 Slim and a Pro. I'm waiting for a PS5 Slim.

the PS4 Pro was the ugliest console Sony ever made until the PS5. Look at how ridiculous the PS5 is and I bet a Pro model will look something like this :messenger_tears_of_joy::

 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
Dude...every game that doesn't run at native4k and rock solid 60 frames with ultra details is "struggling" if you are the type of guy who always want the best performances.

Horizon 2 looking like shit in performance mode is "struggling"


It is all relative.
You will be better served by better XSX2 and PS6 in 4 years than you would if they went for a Pro model detour, but 🤷‍♂️.
 

Rykan

Gold Member
You don't get it, that's fine. Either way, it's wasted resources that should be spent elsewhere.
Oh right so developing for one extra console is "wasted resources" but developing for an enormous amount PC hardware configurations is not. That makes sense.

You seem to think that a PC version just "Exists" with no resources at all being used to make sure it works on all these hardware configurations which shows that you have no clue how game development works.
 
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Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
Oh right so developing for one extra console is "wasted resources" but developing for an enormous amount PC hardware configurations is not. That makes sense.
Oh it is, but on PC on top of developing games around minimum common denominator specs you have players doing the config/.ini dance and optimising their own games…
You also end with les efficient generalised abstraction layers and it takes many years to get changes through as you need to align all those vendors in order for devs to even think about taking advantage of them.

Reposting it on the topic of why, without getting bigger and bigger and more expensive consoles, we benefit more by allowing more years between a console generation and the next (including diminishing return issues where to improve games you need greater than linear improvements in HW performance, a slope that keeps rising btw):
It’s an expensive endeavor. “The average cost of designing a 28nm chip is $40 million,” said Handel Jones, CEO of IBS. “By comparison, the cost of designing a 7nm chip is $217 million, and the cost of designing a 5nm device is $416 million. A 3nm design will cost up to $590 million.”
That is designing, not the only cost you will have manufacturing and cooling the chip monsters we desire to see…
Samsung and TSMC have announced intentions to ramp up their 3nm processes in the second half of 2022, which is slightly later than expected. “Both companies have had some delays on 3nm,” said Samuel Wang, an analyst at Gartner. “The 3nm ramp will take longer than the previous node.”
5nm taking longer than 7nm, 7nm talking longer than 10nm, etc… ask Intel ;)
 
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Roxkis_ii

Member
Man, it feel like the base consoles just came out.

I feel like a lot of people like consoles because their hardware is static. If they start coming out with refreshes every couple of years, that kinda kills that. Ps4 pro main reason to exist was to be Sony's 4k console. With the normal ps5, there isn't really a need to do a pro version (Outside of people who want more power, and should really just build Pc's)
 
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Swift_Star

Banned
Not like that dude, it's mostly for development. More resources are spent on keeping up with all the different versions of one game, and that's just stupid. Because all those resources could be better spent elsewhere.
Meanwhile PC just has one version, one with the highest available settings.
lol you think pc games are not tuned to a variety of GPU specs?
 

Filben

Member
DF is an enthusiast channel so of course they pull everything and every nut and bolt apart (and would advocate for a Pro). Nothing wrong with that.

I want better software first. 120Hz output everywhere and LFC, better home screen with folders, a patch note standard for game updates, a better backwards compatibility system that doesn't treat the PS5 as a different game, granted upgrades for free because it's practically the same game with more graphics options, cloud save games for non plus consumers because you can't backup your PS5 save games any more on USB, free online play.

That's something that would improve my console experience way more than slightly better hardware.
 
How many people do you suppose are spending $3,000 on TVs, or $400 - $500 on Blu-ray players? How many do you think are gamers? Why do you think we've never seen anything like a ~$1,300 console in several decades of console gaming before?

Dismantled lol

How many people people do you think paid a scalper €1,000 for their PS5?

Enough for them to mak and profit off of selling 3000 dollar tvs or 400-500 dollar bluray players. They don't all need to crossover, but many likely would.

I don't think we've seen such an expensive console before because the market has largely catered to base models, that hasn't changed until just recently. We just haven't even had pro versions before this generation.

Consoles also historically weren't as easy to design around pro versions because they were made with more proprietary hardware and games on console had never been designed to take advantage of that and patching games is still relatively new in the overall scope of gaming history on consoles. We're talking about 3 generations in here.
 

TonyK

Member
In fact PS5 is a PS4 Pro 2, so we are there yet. What we are waiting is not for a powerful upgrade, but for a proper next gen console.
 
yup ps5 xbox sx are will be1080p/60 fps consoles

they have no business being anywhere near a quality 4K set
Exactly. Just with DRS plenty of games will gain a substantial resolution increase.

There are others advantages like bigger storage, the fact that they know they'll sell everything they produce avec at a high (599$) price.
PS5 Pro could be used by Sony to test fresh technologies like they did with Pro.
 
I just want to see games actually using the hardware properly. Until we do, the talk if upgraded consoles is unnecessary.

Even then many people are concerned about 30 fps vs 60 fps and games not looking quite as amazing on PS5.

I think this gives the opportunity to really scale things out, and build games at 30 FPS on PS5 and 60 FPS on PS5 Pro. They'll look amazing and people who really need 60 FPS gaming can still get it.

Slim yes, Pro no.

What they really need is a universal Playstation, one that plays physical PS1/2/3/4/5 games out of the box.
I think that is a window they should explore. It should be pretty easy for them to add the PS3 chipset in the PS5 Pro. Add in a reader that reads cds too... Ultimately that would make a lot of people happy and shut people up at the same time. By PS6, they should be able to brute force emulate the PS3 pretty easily and there won't be a need for the chipset.
 
Yes, lets cause developers even more headaches by adding another 2 consoles to the market. Makes sense.

I don't think this is the case.

I think the Series S is a headache because you have to design games around it.

Sony would be taking the better approach here, because ultimately, their 1st party devs aren't hamstrung by a WEAK machine.

The PS5 is the base unit you develop for and the Pro simply offers bells and whistles. Double the framerate or instead of 1440p the games are full 4K. Larger hard drive, maybe a ps3 chipset. Maybe even dedicated ram for quick resume. I don't think that causes a headache for developers.
 

Amiga

Member
Yes. but this time go all out. the best high end model at $1000.
X-Box already did it at launch with the S & X. PlayStation will just do to 2 models staggered. and the current PS5 will be their "S" model.

The PSVR2 will render games twice in a wider aspect, so needs the extra power to keep the same fidelity as non VR games. VR games on PS4 downscaled to sub PS3 levels and many looked like mobile games to achieve stable 60fps on 2 render outputs.
 
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I honestly hate the idea of mid-gen consoles.

It's taking the PC model and supplanting that even more onto consoles.

The biggest benefit consoles have had has been the fixed hardware target for developers. It simplifies development and forces devs to maximize the use of the hardware, eeking out every last bit of performance and even leading to the development of new more efficient rendering technologies.

By providing mid-gen hardware upgrades (predicated solely on the sole benefit of providing higher resolutions/framerates), you complicate developers by providing multiple hardware targets, sucking up testing, iteration and optimisation hours, while also removing the impetus for devs to properly optimize their games or do R&D into developing new more efficient rendering methods, because why would they waste time on that when they can fob off the issue to gamers since they now have the option to upgrade their hardware.

And, it's not even as if I'm exaggerating or catastrophising here. The last-gen demonstrated this aptly, with many many devs no longer giving a shit about base consoles and releasing fucking awful, unoptimised base versions.

So you throw away part of what makes consoles so good for the privilege of being able to spend your hard-earned money on having to re-buy your console. It's dogshit.
 

Lysandros

Member
I honestly hate the idea of mid-gen consoles.

It's taking the PC model and supplanting that even more onto consoles.

The biggest benefit consoles have had has been the fixed hardware target for developers. It simplifies development and forces devs to maximize the use of the hardware, eeking out every last bit of performance and even leading to the development of new more efficient rendering technologies.

By providing mid-gen hardware upgrades (predicated solely on the sole benefit of providing higher resolutions/framerates), you complicate developers by providing multiple hardware targets, sucking up testing, iteration and optimisation hours, while also removing the impetus for devs to properly optimize their games or do R&D into developing new more efficient rendering methods, because why would they waste time on that when they can fob off the issue to gamers since they now have the option to upgrade their hardware.

And, it's not even as if I'm exaggerating or catastrophising here. The last-gen demonstrated this aptly, with many many devs no longer giving a shit about base consoles and releasing fucking awful, unoptimised base versions.

So you throw away part of what makes consoles so good for the privilege of being able to spend your hard-earned money on having to re-buy your console. It's dogshit.
Amen.
 

MikeM

Member
Even then many people are concerned about 30 fps vs 60 fps and games not looking quite as amazing on PS5.

I think this gives the opportunity to really scale things out, and build games at 30 FPS on PS5 and 60 FPS on PS5 Pro. They'll look amazing and people who really need 60 FPS gaming can still get it.


I think that is a window they should explore. It should be pretty easy for them to add the PS3 chipset in the PS5 Pro. Add in a reader that reads cds too... Ultimately that would make a lot of people happy and shut people up at the same time. By PS6, they should be able to brute force emulate the PS3 pretty easily and there won't be a need for the chipset.
Eww no. Games on both consoles need to stay in the VRR window, espicially as the technology gets further adopted and in the wild. There is 0 reason to have games working outside that window or at 30fps.

I’m personally done buying 30fps games. If there is no solid 60fps option, then automatic no purchase.
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
Not sure why.
Because… did you read any other comment I made in this thread ;)?https://www.neogaf.com/threads/digital-foundry-do-we-actually-need-a-ps5-pro.1637199/post-266215561

J/K, developing a mid generation upgrade will take resources away to get you your XSX2 and PS6 consoles. It takes a lot of money to design these mid-generation SoC, manufacture them, market, and sell the console as well as getting devs to support it. You also need to do the same work and more to release the proper next generation console which needs to be a visible leap ahead of the mid generation refresh you just launched too.

In order to make a tangible impact that it is easier for devs to tap without much effort you need something that jumps forward in performance by a larger margin than PS4 Pro jumped over PS4, for a PS6 to PS6 Pro tradition it will be even more than that.

Aside from unforeseen breakthroughs (or people accepting bigger and more expensive consoles), technology jumps are happening at a lower rate and are more and more expensive to obtain… and you need larger and larger jumps to get noticeable differences in games unless we are talking about features that are introduced in a barely functioning way that only the Pro console can support it (quite a bit shady IMHO though).
 
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kyliethicc

Member
The video in the OP is private and inaccessible. Anyone have a working link? I also didn’t see anything from searching YouTube.
Yeah someone shared the link with me, guess it was unlisted at the time. Hadn’t noticed.

No idea why they made it private. Will be public soon enough I bet.
 
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Eww no. Games on both consoles need to stay in the VRR window, espicially as the technology gets further adopted and in the wild. There is 0 reason to have games working outside that window or at 30fps.

I’m personally done buying 30fps games. If there is no solid 60fps option, then automatic no purchase.
And a pro would be appropriate for you
 

NinjaBoiX

Member
The enthusiast market is tiny so you're never going to see a $700 console, never mind a $1000+ one (unless Apple decides to enter the market).

You want state-of-the-art tech, buy a gaming PC and choose how much power you want.
You say that like the only barrier to entry is price, there’s a lot of messing around and technical knowledge needed to get the most out of PC as a platform.

I’ve happily bought myself each of the current top of the line consoles which could’ve bought me an amazing PC, because I don’t want the faff that comes along with owning a PC. I also don’t want to sit at a desk two foot away from the monitor.

I want to come home from work, slump into the comfort of the sofa with a controller in hand and push “on”.
 

Soapbox Killer

Grand Nagus
The PS4 Pro and Xbox One X were a necessary evil last gen since the base models were old/outdated tech the moment those consoles released. This gen is not the same. The 5 and the Series X are very capable machines by any reasonable metric. They are not best but I don't think they are outclassed.
 

reksveks

Member
were discussing vids that barely anyone has access to. I saw it before it got removed by chance
Yeah, it's rather stupid but probably not that different to the norm around here.

Personally not sure how much the video would add but let's see on Monday.
 

Hezekiah

Banned
Enough for them to mak and profit off of selling 3000 dollar tvs or 400-500 dollar bluray players. They don't all need to crossover, but many likely would.

I don't think we've seen such an expensive console before because the market has largely catered to base models, that hasn't changed until just recently. We just haven't even had pro versions before this generation.

Consoles also historically weren't as easy to design around pro versions because they were made with more proprietary hardware and games on console had never been designed to take advantage of that and patching games is still relatively new in the overall scope of gaming history on consoles. We're talking about 3 generations in here.
There's no evidence to support.

Hardcore home theatre buffs tend to be a lot older, few in number, and many aren't gamers.

Put it this way, if there are millions of gamers chomping at the bit to buy a ~€1,300 games console, someone needs to send the memo to Sony, Nintendo, and Microsoft.
 

ChiefDada

Member
If UE5 games are max 30 fps on the current models, then yes we do.

Which UE5 game(s) maxes out at 30fps?

Can you play Horizon Forbidden West** in fidelity/quality mode at 60fps?
If the answer is NO, then PS5 Pro is needed.

"Fidelity" mode is absract aka moving target and doesn't have definitive characteristics, so you can't base the necessity of a new console on this flawed logic.
 

Neofire

Member
A more powerful ps5 why not? That would be like asking PC players why the needed a 1080ti when they already had a 1080 🤷🏿‍♂️
 
There's no evidence to support.

Hardcore home theatre buffs tend to be a lot older, few in number, and many aren't gamers.

Put it this way, if there are millions of gamers chomping at the bit to buy a ~€1,300 games console, someone needs to send the memo to Sony, Nintendo, and Microsoft.

I think sales of PS5s via scalpers suggest there is in fact a market for it. Not sure why you're stuck on 1300. As 1000 USD would be 927 euros. So 950-1000 euros, but that is a far cry from 1300 euro which is 1400 usd
 

Md Ray

Member
No. All we need is proper next generation games that take full advantage of the fixed hardware as much as possible. I want to see the kind of evolution from Ridge Racer to Ridge Racer Type 4 on the same platform, pushing the boundaries with creativity, experience and better coding. As a console enthusiast/purist i absolutely despise the concept of mid-gen upgrades and the shallow mentality who only wants higher resolutions/frame rates with constant brute forcing at the cost of real evolution and graphic complexity.
This!! x100.
 

Hezekiah

Banned
I think sales of PS5s via scalpers suggest there is in fact a market for it. Not sure why you're stuck on 1300. As 1000 USD would be 927 euros. So 950-1000 euros, but that is a far cry from 1300 euro which is 1400 usd
€1,300 is what the other guy mentioned, the same guy you were agreeing with.

Same as I said to him, how many people do you think bought PS5s for $1,000+? The mast vajority of people bought them from Sony directly, or from retailers.

Your 'argument' is a total nonsense, and mentioning electronics in other segments doesn't help.
 
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THE:MILKMAN

Member
I think sales of PS5s via scalpers suggest there is in fact a market for it. Not sure why you're stuck on 1300. As 1000 USD would be 927 euros. So 950-1000 euros, but that is a far cry from 1300 euro which is 1400 usd

Surely a lot of that was driven by furloughed people doing a side hustle with a big amount of "free" money and also being captive at home in lockdown with nothing more to do than play games and watch Netflix. And all those not scalping themselves were OK spending "free" money on them.

I'm not sure a £€$1,000 console will work in "normal" times with inflation at 10% and energy costs through the roof.

Saying that a lot of stuff has happened in gaming the last few years that nothing would truly surprise me any more.
 

BadBurger

Is 'That Pure Potato'
Unless they intend on finally cutting the umbilical cord with last gen for all games moving forward, no.
 
Surely a lot of that was driven by furloughed people doing a side hustle with a big amount of "free" money and also being captive at home in lockdown with nothing more to do than play games and watch Netflix. And all those not scalping themselves were OK spending "free" money on them.

I'm not sure a £€$1,000 console will work in "normal" times with inflation at 10% and energy costs through the roof.

Saying that a lot of stuff has happened in gaming the last few years that nothing would truly surprise me any more.

PS5 to date is impossible to find on a moment's notice. That tells us the demand is significantly higher than 500 dollars since supply can't keep up.

At what price point do we find current ps5s on shelves? 600? 700? 800?

There is obviously some price elasticity here.
 

K' Dash

Member
We don't even have next gen games, there's not enough product to keep demand.

I think it would be stupid to offer a refresh in a time where you can't even walk into a store and buy the damn thing.
 
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