Digital Foundry - Do we actually need a PS5 Pro?

tvdaXD

Member
What does this have to do with aything? "It's the norm and all part of the development" like what does any of this mean? Are you just tossing out random arguments against the wall, hoping that it will at one point lead to a logical argument? Because it's not working.

And neither is a pro variant of a console.

How the heck is developing higher maximum settings for a high end PC hardware fine but developing the exact same settings for a higher end console a "waste of resources"? That makes no sense at all. Do you think that every PS5 and Xbox Series S/X version of cross gen games is a "waste of resources" as well?
I'll keep it simpler; Before there was just one of each console, and PC for which the game(s) were developed. Now there's more variants of each console, adding additional time and resources spent on development.

Hopefully you understand it now. In a time with even worse expectations from stupid investors and chip shortages, a pro variant is something that's just a stupid idea.
 

Dunker99

Neo Member
If we’re going to continue getting 60fps modes that are worse than the equivalent modes of the previous instalment in a game franchise, due to increased detail & fidelity etc (I.e. Horizon Zero Dawn vs Horizon Forbidden West & Forza Horizon 4 v FH5), then I would very much welcome a pro version.
 

Bojji

Member
Personally no. PS4 when it came out it was considered kind of in line but would be surpassed very quickly by newer tech so introducing 4K resolution was great as. a lot of people had 4K TVs by then (2017). If all the PS5 Pro does is allow 8K and 60fps no matter the game....first of all, who even has an 8K TV? I mean sure a tiny majority but 8K are far from a mainstream thing. So basically would I buy again a $400+ console and go selling my old one just so I get in the other 50% of available games a 60fps mode? No way, thats like the smallest reason tu upgrade. And lets be honest, really, you could tell a difference between 8K and 4k? If there ever was an 8K game then you can bet it wont be 60fps so we jsut went back in a circle.

Native 8k is out of the picture for consoles for the next 5 years at least (so new gen?).

Currently pro models could do 4k and maybe 60fps at the same time (but without RT) 🤣
 

Amiga

Member
I'll keep it simpler; Before there was just one of each console, and PC for which the game(s) were developed. Now there's more variants of each console, adding additional time and resources spent on development.

Hopefully you understand it now. In a time with even worse expectations from stupid investors and chip shortages, a pro variant is something that's just a stupid idea.

The PS4Pro was designed to mirror the architecture of the base PS4, it requires minimal optimization and can be completely ignored by developers.
 

Rykan

Gold Member
I'll keep it simpler; Before there was just one of each console, and PC for which the game(s) were developed. Now there's more variants of each console, adding additional time and resources spent on development.

Hopefully you understand it now. In a time with even worse expectations from stupid investors and chip shortages, a pro variant is something that's just a stupid idea.
You're "keeping it simple" because this topic is too complicated for you and goes above your extremely limited understanding of how game development works. You don't have the slightest idea of what you're talking about.

There's no such thing as "The PC". There are enormous amount of different configuration with hardware from all kinds of different manufacturers. Creating a PC version takes significantly more work than creating a version for a "pro" console of an already existing game. Also, you still haven't answered the question why creating a version with higher settings than standard consoles are capable of for PC is okay but for a pro console, it's wasted resources.
 

Melon Husk

Member
Base PS4 was 28nm
PS4 Pro/slim was 16nm

PS5 is 7nm
PS5 Pro/slim can't happen before Sony shrinks the process to 5nm or smaller

5nm CPU processors are coming this fall

PS4 slim was released in 2016 or 1-2 years after the process became available


PS5 slim/pro could happen as early as September 2023 or as late as September 2024
 

tvdaXD

Member
You're "keeping it simple" because this topic is too complicated for you and goes above your extremely limited understanding of how game development works. You don't have the slightest idea of what you're talking about.

There's no such thing as "The PC". There are enormous amount of different configuration with hardware from all kinds of different manufacturers. Creating a PC version takes significantly more work than creating a version for a "pro" console of an already existing game. Also, you still haven't answered the question why creating a version with higher settings than standard consoles are capable of for PC is okay but for a pro console, it's wasted resources.
Hey, it's fine, you don't get my point. But don't be a dick with your "...extremely limited understanding..." You don't have to be that guy.
Again, the development for PC was already part of the development, so there's nothing more to do than they used to. Simple right?
I suggest you go outside and touch some grass, converse with some folk and find out that with these degrading comments the amount of social iteration will be extremely limited. Have a nice day.
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
You're "keeping it simple" because this topic is too complicated for you and goes above your extremely limited understanding of how game development works. You don't have the slightest idea of what you're talking about.

There's no such thing as "The PC". There are enormous amount of different configuration with hardware from all kinds of different manufacturers. Creating a PC version takes significantly more work than creating a version for a "pro" console of an already existing game. Also, you still haven't answered the question why creating a version with higher settings than standard consoles are capable of for PC is okay but for a pro console, it's wasted resources.
On PC it is an expected requirement/must have for the audience where the PC SKU gets treated as an additional product you sell and get money for (PC consumers have been trained to use Game configs and other tools to optimise the game for their setup and more abstracted API’s trade off performance / efficiency for wider compatibility), Pro consoles are a niche product where the Pro patch is expected for free and typically gets very limited effort overall a few weeks over the base console version (fee devs use the additional features added to the Pro revision). Complexity to devs that does not carry its weight IMHO.

On the user side we have the pace of technology updates slowing down (pace of performance growth at the same power consumption and overall cost to manufacture, run, and cool the SoC) which does not support an increased pace of console updates and we already see how larger and larger performance deltas are needed to make a visible difference (diminishing returns). Also the cost to design and develop the Pro console is likely better spent engineering the real console successor instead of attempting to fragment the console base for a modest jump and have to then spend money to leapfrog it in a new SoC for the next generation console.
So Pro consoles make less sense now than they did back then, will make less sense in the future than they make now… unless consumers embrace more expensive and bigger consoles (but there is a limit there too).
 

Rykan

Gold Member
Hey, it's fine, you don't get my point. But don't be a dick with your "...extremely limited understanding..." You don't have to be that guy.
Again, the development for PC was already part of the development, so there's nothing more to do than they used to. Simple right?
I suggest you go outside and touch some grass, converse with some folk and find out that with these degrading comments the amount of social iteration will be extremely limited. Have a nice day.
I will be that guy because you've been extremely condescending through this entire conversation. "I will make it simple. You don't get my point". You don't have a point because you have no idea how game development works.

"Development for PC was already part of the development" eh what? Just because you develop ON a PC doesn't mean that you're necessarily developing FOR PC. Developing a PC version requires optimization and how much work it takes is directly related to how ambitious your port/PC Version is going to be. How many OS is it going to support? Which hardware will it support? Will it support assets/content that requires additional development beyond the standard console versions.

You're still unable to answer the question how developing additional settings to take advantage of high end PC hardware is fine but having these same settings for a "pro" console is not. Oh that's right, you're not answering it because you can't.

Next time you try to "converse with some folk", try to stay away from subjects you have no understanding or knowledge of. People will think you're less of an asshole that way.

On PC it is an expected requirement/must have for the audience where the PC SKU gets treated as an additional product you sell and get money for (PC consumers have been trained to use Game configs and other tools to optimise the game for their setup and more abstracted API’s trade off performance / efficiency for wider compatibility), Pro consoles are a niche product where the Pro patch is expected for free and typically gets very limited effort overall a few weeks over the base console version (fee devs use the additional features added to the Pro revision). Complexity to devs that does not carry its weight IMHO.

On the user side we have the pace of technology updates slowing down (pace of performance growth at the same power consumption and overall cost to manufacture, run, and cool the SoC) which does not support an increased pace of console updates and we already see how larger and larger performance deltas are needed to make a visible difference (diminishing returns). Also the cost to design and develop the Pro console is likely better spent engineering the real console successor instead of attempting to fragment the console base for a modest jump and have to then spend money to leapfrog it in a new SoC for the next generation console.
So Pro consoles make less sense now than they did back then, will make less sense in the future than they make now… unless consumers embrace more expensive and bigger consoles (but there is a limit there too).
High end PC's are also, relatively speaking, a niche products and ofcourse higher settings are free on PC as well. The advantages of PS4 Pro and Xbox One X were largely limited to an increase in resolution and/or an additional framerate mode. The actua developmentl costs for pro versions is fairly marginal.
 
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Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
The actua developmentl costs for pro versions is fairly marginal.
Bit of chicken and egg there, see the more effective bet MS made (from a customer point of view for some things) where they were able to improve games more on average as the same token effort by devs yielded better results (devs could brute force things more easily and use higher resolution textures and effects thanks to higher bandwidth and RAM too).
 
I don’t think we’ll be seeing any mid-gen pros this time around, maybe not till much later anyway. We are still supporting last gen with games and haven’t really had many next gen only games to take full advantage of its features, also the Geometry engine in the PS5 is meant to be something special and understood and used slowly over time but I don’t even think that has fully utilised just yet.
 

Bojji

Member
I don’t think we’ll be seeing any mid-gen pros this time around, maybe not till much later anyway. We are still supporting last gen with games and haven’t really had many next gen only games to take full advantage of its features, also the Geometry engine in the PS5 is meant to be something special and understood and used slowly over time but I don’t even think that has fully utilised just yet.

Geometry engine so far looks just like primitive shaders, and mesh shaders (found on series consoles and PC rdna2) are newer version of it. But time will tell what is really going on in this console, we have fewer info about PS5 than Xbox.
 

Lysandros

Member
Geometry engine so far looks just like primitive shaders, and mesh shaders (found on series consoles and PC rdna2) are newer version of it. But time will tell what is really going on in this console, we have fewer info about PS5 than Xbox.
We at least know that PS5 GE is stronger, the hardware block runs at 20% higher frequency, it can cull more/faster.
 

tvdaXD

Member
I will be that guy because you've been extremely condescending through this entire conversation. "I will make it simple. You don't get my point". You don't have a point because you have no idea how game development works.

"Development for PC was already part of the development" eh what? Just because you develop ON a PC doesn't mean that you're necessarily developing FOR PC. Developing a PC version requires optimization and how much work it takes is directly related to how ambitious your port/PC Version is going to be. How many OS is it going to support? Which hardware will it support? Will it support assets/content that requires additional development beyond the standard console versions.

You're still unable to answer the question how developing additional settings to take advantage of high end PC hardware is fine but having these same settings for a "pro" console is not. Oh that's right, you're not answering it because you can't.

Next time you try to "converse with some folk", try to stay away from subjects you have no understanding or knowledge of. People will think you're less of an asshole that way.
I'm sorry you found my responses condescending, but there's action and reaction so it's in your hands.
Obviously development on a PC doesn't mean it will release on PC, it's different for each game. That's where the problem is, let me explain;
We can all agree that for each platform, PC or console, there are specific development requirements that require time and resources. So all I'm saying is that instead of 3 (PC, PlayStation and XBOX) there's now 5 or 6. So yes, yes I can answer the question.
Now let's settle this the good way, and both show we're not the assholes and just had a misunderstanding.
Deal? ;)
 

UltimaKilo

Gold Member
If we’re going to continue getting 60fps modes that are worse than the equivalent modes of the previous instalment in a game franchise, due to increased detail & fidelity etc (I.e. Horizon Zero Dawn vs Horizon Forbidden West & Forza Horizon 4 v FH5), then I would very much welcome a pro version.
People here are thinking this is for now. Those who are responding with “no” will be clamoring for spec bumped iterations come 2024/2025.

In the meantime, I hope we get smaller versions sooner, rather than later, with die shrinks.
 

Rykan

Gold Member
I'm sorry you found my responses condescending, but there's action and reaction so it's in your hands.
Obviously development on a PC doesn't mean it will release on PC, it's different for each game. That's where the problem is, let me explain;
We can all agree that for each platform, PC or console, there are specific development requirements that require time and resources. So all I'm saying is that instead of 3 (PC, PlayStation and XBOX) there's now 5 or 6. So yes, yes I can answer the question.
Now let's settle this the good way, and both show we're not the assholes and just had a misunderstanding.
Deal? ;)
Those platforms don't require the same level of effort. A good PC version is optimized to take advantage and run well on a wide range of hardware. Put it this way: it takes considerably more effort to develop a PC version of a game than it takes to bump up a PS4 game to PS4 pro.

You still haven't answered the question properly. A lot of PC games are developed to take advantage of high end PC hardware. Why is this not a waste of effort/resources when a pro variant is the exact same thing: A higher end version of an already existing console.
 

Lysandros

Member
But there are less units so it's not so simple to calculate like that 🙂
There is exactly 1 unified Geometry Engine in each machine see RDNA/RDNA2 architectures, these are not CUs. The number of graphic command processors (equally one in each), rasterizers, prim units, HWS and ACEs are also the same between the machines, hence PS5's higher fixed function throughput due to 22% higher frequency. As to ROPs, both machines have 64 color ROPs but PS5 has 128 depth/z-stencil ROPs compared to 64 for XSX so PS5 has twice as many units there.
 
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I'm all about more power, but I'd like to see a few more next gen games before I plop down $700 or whatever insane price this thing is going to cost. Out of principle.
 
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sncvsrtoip

Member
Base PS4 was 28nm
PS4 Pro/slim was 16nm

PS5 is 7nm
PS5 Pro/slim can't happen before Sony shrinks the process to 5nm or smaller

5nm CPU processors are coming this fall

PS4 slim was released in 2016 or 1-2 years after the process became available


PS5 slim/pro could happen as early as September 2023 or as late as September 2024
they can, pro version can be 600$+ and 250w+, rdna3 will be available soon and its rumored to be around 2x faster in raster and 2.5x in rt vs rdna2
 

Bojji

Member
There is exactly 1 unified Geometry Engine in each machine see RDNA/RDNA2 architectures, these are not CUs. The number of graphic command processors (equally one in each), rasterizers, prim units, HWS and ACEs are also the same between the machines, hence PS5's higher fixed function throughput due to 22% higher frequency. As to ROPs, both machines have 64 color ROPs but PS5 has 128 depth/z-stencil ROPs compared to 64 for XSX so PS5 has twice as many units there.




So geometry engine is one per GPU but number of primitive units scales with shader engine amount.

Xbox has 4 of those:



Cant find anything about PS5 :(
 

Barakov

Gold Member
Base PS4 was 28nm
PS4 Pro/slim was 16nm

PS5 is 7nm
PS5 Pro/slim can't happen before Sony shrinks the process to 5nm or smaller

5nm CPU processors are coming this fall

PS4 slim was released in 2016 or 1-2 years after the process became available


PS5 slim/pro could happen as early as September 2023 or as late as September 2024
It'll be interesting to see how slim it actually is.
 

Lysandros

Member



So geometry engine is one per GPU but number of primitive units scales with shader engine amount.

Xbox has 4 of those:



Cant find anything about PS5 :(
Both XSX and PS5 are 2 Shader Engine/4 Shader array desings, the number of prim units is the same.
 
Ol’ Dicky Leadbetter takes a look at if more powerful mid gen consoles are needed, or even possible, this time around for Sony & Microsoft.

The question: Do humans need more advanced tech?

The answer: Yes. The better the tech the more we can do with it.

The PS5 is using a 2019 CPU(Zen 2) with a 2020(RDNA2) GPU. This year we're getting next gen GPUs including RDNA3 and next gen CPUs including Zen 4. A PS5 Pro using a higher clocked CPU and RDN3(2022) or better yet RDNA4(2024) would provide a far better experience than what the PS5 can do. The last question would then be how much are consumers willing to pay for it? $550, $600, $700? And what segment are they targeting(likely enthusiasts).
 

Bojji

Member
Both XSX and PS5 are 2 Shader Engine/4 Shader array desings, the number of prim units is the same.

I always assumed that Xbox has more of everything, turns out this isn't true. So yeah, once devs start to base their geometry around mesh shaders this gen will start to get interesting :messenger_savoring:
 

RAIDEN1

Member
We don't need a PS5 Pro, but what we DO NEED, is Sony being more appreciative of its legacy collection and providing an outstanding collection of PS1 and PS2 games that put Sony's name on the perch....titles some of which have not been bettered to this day despite the advancements in tech hardware...
 
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tvdaXD

Member
Those platforms don't require the same level of effort. A good PC version is optimized to take advantage and run well on a wide range of hardware. Put it this way: it takes considerably more effort to develop a PC version of a game than it takes to bump up a PS4 game to PS4 pro.

You still haven't answered the question properly. A lot of PC games are developed to take advantage of high end PC hardware. Why is this not a waste of effort/resources when a pro variant is the exact same thing: A higher end version of an already existing console.
Here's my answer to that question; The PC was already, and is the choice as one of the big platforms to release many games on. I'm not saying it doesn't take resources, or less resources than a console. But it was already part of the proces. The reason I said a pro variant is, is because were there used to be 3 big platforms, 2 of them are now split into 2 or 3. Getting you 3 additional variants to take in consideration.
I hope that answers your question.

A big reason why I recommend they take te route of how the PlayStation 3 did it, is because of the increased demand of hardware, combined with the chip shortage... It just makes it harder for people to get their hands on a console.
On top of that, I don't think the development time has suddenly increased with the release of pro variants. And I think we can all agree on the fact that development of games is no easy task, and takes lots of time many of these developers don't have.
 

Rykan

Gold Member
Here's my answer to that question; The PC was already, and is the choice as one of the big platforms to release many games on. I'm not saying it doesn't take resources, or less resources than a console. But it was already part of the proces. The reason I said a pro variant is, is because were there used to be 3 big platforms, 2 of them are now split into 2 or 3. Getting you 3 additional variants to take in consideration.
I hope that answers your question.
No it doesn't, because you're again treating PC as one platform when it isn't. PC has an enormous amount of different configurations. There is no difference between developing a game to take advantage of high end PC hardware and developing to take advantage of high end console hardware.

Remember, this was your argument:

Why can't we just do it like the PS3 days? It's fine to make a smaller one, maybe one that uses less power. But faster ones? All these variants are just stupid to keep up with. Glad I mainly play on PC.
You're "Glad to mainly play" on PC even though a PC version requires developers to spend significantly more time to develop for different variations of hardware than a Pro version of consoles. The whole reason we're having this discussion in the first palce is because the position you initially took makes absolutely no sense at all.
 
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Madjako

Member
People answering no make me laugh.
Of course a more powerful console is needed. If the answer is no then stick to your ps3 and don't embrace all the new features available.
Is pro version will let us have games even closer to "reality " and that's the purpose of new consoles and new cpu/gpu.
 

tvdaXD

Member
...There is no difference between developing a game to take advantage of high end PC hardware and developing to take advantage of high end console hardware....
There we have it, it's not about which takes more development time or cost or whatever. You can't truly measure that with all these different games and their unique development.
It's about the fact that there is now extra platforms on top of the existing ones, that does increase development and takes extra time and resources.
You're "Glad to mainly play" on PC even though a PC version requires developers to spend significantly more time to develop for different variations of hardware than a Pro version of consoles. The whole reason we're having this discussion in the first palce is because the position you initially took makes absolutely no sense at all.
You've said this before and this is correct, but it's somehow you've also said there's no difference right above this. Anyhow, not what this is about see my response above.
 

Caio

Member
On PC it is an expected requirement/must have for the audience where the PC SKU gets treated as an additional product you sell and get money for (PC consumers have been trained to use Game configs and other tools to optimise the game for their setup and more abstracted API’s trade off performance / efficiency for wider compatibility), Pro consoles are a niche product where the Pro patch is expected for free and typically gets very limited effort overall a few weeks over the base console version (fee devs use the additional features added to the Pro revision). Complexity to devs that does not carry its weight IMHO.

On the user side we have the pace of technology updates slowing down (pace of performance growth at the same power consumption and overall cost to manufacture, run, and cool the SoC) which does not support an increased pace of console updates and we already see how larger and larger performance deltas are needed to make a visible difference (diminishing returns). Also the cost to design and develop the Pro console is likely better spent engineering the real console successor instead of attempting to fragment the console base for a modest jump and have to then spend money to leapfrog it in a new SoC for the next generation console.
So Pro consoles make less sense now than they did back then, will make less sense in the future than they make now… unless consumers embrace more expensive and bigger consoles (but there is a limit there too).
Your points make sense, but you are not considering how long the generation cycle last nowdays, how quickly hardware become obsolete, and once the new Next Gen Consoles are out, for the first 3 years you basicly and mostly get BC games, multiplatform games. Until we keep going with this strategy/phylosophy of very long generation cycle and BC games/multiplatform games for good 3 years, I can see the need of a Mid Gen upgrade 4 years after the release of the Base model, so that the Exclusive Games finally developed for Next Gen only, could have the option to look even better on the Pro models. Furthermore, you will have other great exclusive games for other 4 years.

People who believe we don't need a Pro model, should consider to go back to the old strategy, 5 years life cycle, and next gen exclusive games from day one. Just my opinion.
 

Rykan

Gold Member
There we have it, it's not about which takes more development time or cost or whatever. You can't truly measure that with all these different games and their unique development.
It's about the fact that there is now extra platforms on top of the existing ones, that does increase development and takes extra time and resources.

You've said this before and this is correct, but it's somehow you've also said there's no difference right above this. Anyhow, not what this is about see my response above.
I've said that there is no difference between developing for high end PC's and higher end Consoles so saying that we don't need "higher end consoles" and that you are "Glad you're on PC", a platform that that requires additional development effort especially if it takes advantage of higher end hardware, is hypocrital and nonsenical. Why ARE you glad to be on PC in that context?
 

tvdaXD

Member
I've said that there is no difference between developing for high end PC's and higher end Consoles so saying that we don't need "higher end consoles" and that you are "Glad you're on PC", a platform that that requires additional development effort especially if it takes advantage of higher end hardware, is hypocrital and nonsenical. Why ARE you glad to be on PC in that context?
Same answer still applies, I'm not going repeat/explain myself again and again. Have a nice day.
 
I went to play Drive Club on the PS5 yesterday. I immediately started looking for graphics options, and they didn't have anything aside from screen shake. The game looks like complete ass lol.

Sony will force my hand if I go to play TLoU3, and the 60FPS option is greyed out on a standard PS5.
 

Rykan

Gold Member
Same answer still applies, I'm not going repeat/explain myself again and again. Have a nice day.
At no point have you explained why you're glad to be on pc, though I'm not surprised to see you pretend like you've answered it. It was an incredibly dumb and ignorant thing to say, after all.
 

tvdaXD

Member
At no point have you explained why you're glad to be on pc, though I'm not surprised to see you pretend like you've answered it. It was an incredibly dumb and ignorant thing to say, after all.
I see your attitude doesn't change, shame, thought we settled that. Anyhow, I'll humor you, I'm glad to be on PC since it's the platform that doesn't need a PC2, PC Pro and can be upgraded to whatever I need.
Besides, max settings, high framerates, top accuracy, mods, not having to pay for online play and VR are more than enough reasons.
 

Rykan

Gold Member
I see your attitude doesn't change, shame, thought we settled that. Anyhow, I'll humor you, I'm glad to be on PC since it's the platform that doesn't need a PC2, PC Pro and can be upgraded to whatever I need.
Besides, max settings, high framerates, top accuracy, mods, not having to pay for online play and VR are more than enough reasons.
The funny thing is that you're actually just hung up on terminology. You don't have a PC2, but you've definitely purchased a new computer before. No pc pro? Sure, Instead there are like 4 or 5 variations of a GPU & CPU per generation. So how the heck is there any difference between buying a more expensive tier of a GPU/CPU and a Pro variant of a console?
 
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tvdaXD

Member
The funny thing is that you're actually just hung up on terminology. You don't have a PC2, but you've definitely purchased a new computer before. No pc pro? Sure, Instead there are like 4 or 5 variations of a GPU & CPU per generation. So how the heck is there any difference between buying a more expensive tier of a GPU/CPU and a Pro variant of a console?
It's been going on for too long, and going off topic now. I've had my fill, have a nice day.
 
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