Digital Foundry - Hellblade Switch Analysis: Just How Close Is It To PS4?

~Fake

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Well nVidia actually has no hardware for a Switch "Pro"... Tegra X2 has the same raw power than X1 with slight better power consumption.
Really? Is Rich from DF saying about this new Tegra instead of the 2010 Tegra used on Nvidia Shield choise by Nintendo?
 

blu

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Rich sayed is a 2010 custom Nvidia Shield Tegra if I remember right. Gonna rewatch his video.
You don't remember right ; ) Chozofication is correct -- TX1 is 2015 tech (arm CA57, Maxwell 2.0, 20nm TSMC -- those things did not exist in 2010).
 
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~Fake

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You don't remember right ; ) Chozofication is correct -- TX1 is 2015 tech (arm CA57, Maxwell 2.0, 20nm TSMC -- those things did not exist in 2010).
TX1 its a 'custom made' hardware by Nvidia just like the radeon inside PS4, probably based on an existent nvidia previous hardware.

edit:
 
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Jubenhimer

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I can't imagine this port selling well at all.
Where is the close?

It is a way bigger difference than a PS4 to XB1 difference 🤔
So it can't even touch base Xbox One on Switch let alone PS4.

I predict significantly less console ports going to Switch next year.
Typical responses. It's not on par, therefore it sucks. Point is, is that it's good in its own right. Yeah, there's comprimises, but that was inevitable when porting to a mobile device. Just be glad it runs decently on the Switch at all.

Because whenever Switch gets what would equate to a horrible port anywhere else they develop cognitive dissonance and then somehow it becomes impressive.
This is a tablet, of course, there's going to be compromises. The important thing is that it still looks and plays decently in its own right. Not sure what anybody expected from a mobile SoC.

Most of the "Home console" speak is PR TBH. Switch really is a mobile device at its core. It's only considered a home console primarily due to the dock being the main resting place for the system when at home.
 
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Meowzers

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Well, if Switch users wish to make a stand about ports not looking the best on their consoles then they've probaly burned more calories standing up than Senua does during the entire game.
 

Meesh

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Typical responses. It's not on par, therefore it sucks. Point is, is that it's good in its own right. Yeah, there's comprimises, but that was inevitable when porting to a mobile device. Just be glad it runs decently on the Switch at all.



This is a tablet, of course, there's going to be compromises. The important thing is that it still looks and plays decently in its own right. Not sure what anybody expected from a mobile SoC.



Most of the "Home console" speak is PR TBH. Switch really is a mobile device at its core. It's only considered a home console primarily due to the dock being the main resting place for the system when at home.
Yeah, like I honestly really couldn't give a shit about comparisons, whether or not said game is on par or below other consoles. I watched a few clips showing gameplay and I couldn't be happier to play this on the go should I choose, it seems to look pretty fantastic to be fair in it's own right and I'm looking forward to other ports/ efforts from devs.
 

mrMUR_96

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Have you seen how a base xboner runs AAA games these days? 720p is common.

The WiiU was 355 gigaflops. The Switch is considerably faster than that console. Might want to tell Gamespot they have their figures wrong: https://www.gamespot.com/gallery/console-gpu-power-compared-ranking-systems-by-flop/2900-1334/10/

I think we both went way off track. The Switch is up to 1 TF docked, 0.6tf undocked. Would explain why even in portable mode it can manage ue4 games at 540p.

The switch is only 1tf when using fp16.
 

PhoenixTank

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TX1 its a 'custom made' hardware by Nvidia just like the radeon inside PS4, probably based on an existent nvidia previous hardware.

edit:
Anything in particular from that video, or a timestamp? I've seen it at least once before. Skimmed through it again and didn't hear 2010?

The X1 in the switch is significantly less customised than the semi-custom PS4/Xbox chips. The only hint that there might have been a hardware change was the different "codename" printed on it. Possibly a different stepping, which usually doesn't amount to much.
The x-rays showed it was basically identical to an X1 chip in a Shield TV. The real custom aspect of it is the frequency profile setup but that is done in software/firmware.

This isn't a bad thing. It also doesn't prevent a semi-custom Switch Pro either if Nintendo wanted to go that route and spend the money on it.
 
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lucius

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Really any Switch ports should be compared to the Xbox X versions also, are people really too scared to see, “oh no the Switch might be destroyed” who cares most people understand Switch limitations and benefits of it being a hybrid console. So we have to wait until Switch upgrades are released before they can start being compared to current systems out. Not being fair is a dumb excuse, so that would mean no regular Xbox one games should be compared to PC versions.
 

ethomaz

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Really? Is Rich from DF saying about this new Tegra instead of the 2010 Tegra used on Nvidia Shield choise by Nintendo?
If he said then he is wrong.

Swtich's Tegra X1 is exactly the same Tegra X1 found in nVidia Shield and it was released in 2015.
There is no customization... it is pin to pin... silicon to silicon identical.

Of course the software using it on Switch is custom made by Nintendo but hardware is the exactly the same.

The problem for a "Pro" is that Tegra X2 has the exactly same amount of raw power potential than Tegra X1 so it won't help Nintendo manage a significant gap in power with a revision.

Best bet for a Switch "Pro" revision with more GPU/CPU power is wait what nVidia will show with Tegra 7nm using the arch revision after Turing but I don't remember reading anything about these plans yet.
 
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DeafTourette

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I get the appeal, if switch is your only console obviously Nintendo games are the main draw but its a nice bonus to get 3rd patty ports even if inferior they are still very enjoyable
I love to play on handhelds at home theres some magic to it, i wish they ported re4 to switch, my only complain is games not hitting native rez, wish a revision would solve that.

Native rez on handheld mode would be a massive upgrade
They did. It's coming out next month. You can pre-order/preload it on the Switch right now. That's what I did.
 
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~Fake

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Rewatched again. Sry my mistake about the NS chip. Still, in the DF they talk how things could change if Nintendo picked X2 instead of X1.
 

PocoJoe

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Have you seen how a base xboner runs AAA games these days? 720p is common.

The WiiU was 355 gigaflops. The Switch is considerably faster than that console. Might want to tell Gamespot they have their figures wrong: https://www.gamespot.com/gallery/console-gpu-power-compared-ranking-systems-by-flop/2900-1334/10/

I think we both went way off track. The Switch is up to 1 TF docked, 0.6tf undocked. Would explain why even in portable mode it can manage ue4 games at 540p.

I dont know where these numbers came from, but switch isnt even near 1Tflops.

It is 0.384 Tflops docked and 0.17 tflops handheld or something like that. FP32 is what matters and these are the numbers

https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/tegra-x1.c3230 it uses tegra x1 with no customization and lower clocks.

Max speed for X1 seems to be 0.512 Tflops fp32, so there is no way that switch would have double of that with lower clocks.


FP16 doubles numbers in paper but cant be used when comparing to others as it just doesnt work like that

Switch is really weak, dunno how this 1tflops bullshit is still alive after 2 years
 
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ethomaz

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Rewatched again. Sry my mistake about the NS chip. Still, in the DF they talk how things could change if Nintendo picked X2 instead of X1.
They are different chips but the performance is close so I don't think that will change with using X2 instead X1.
X2 indeed has a slight better perf/watt and a better memory bandwidth.

Is it enough to make difference in graphics? No.
Maybe Nintendo wants to use Tegra Xavier but that chip really exists?


Xavier indeed will at minium double the GPU/CPU power over X1 (Erista ) / X2 (Parker).

Edit - Seems like there is one device using Tegra Xavier:


But the cooler is not something you will use in a portable and this chip was not developed to the gaming market.
 
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blu

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TX1 its a 'custom made' hardware by Nvidia just like the radeon inside PS4, probably based on an existent nvidia previous hardware.
TX1 is stock hardware. If you meant to say that the switch SoC is custom-made -- it's a TX1. The software stack is fairly custom, of course.
 

blu

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gyro + analogs combo right?
That's what I'm hoping for. I've played this game in every possible control combination, multiple times each, and enjoyed it immensely, but I refuse to play it on anything else but gyro + analogs nowadays. Only that scheme is the true next-level experience for me.
 
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Redneckerz

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Rewatched again. Sry my mistake about the NS chip. Still, in the DF they talk how things could change if Nintendo picked X2 instead of X1.
It would just be more modern. For compatibility, they would need some kind of mode for it.

They are different chips but the performance is close so I don't think that will change with using X2 instead X1.
X2 indeed has a slight better perf/watt and a better memory bandwidth.

Is it enough to make difference in graphics? No.
Maybe Nintendo wants to use Tegra Xavier but that chip really exists?


Xavier indeed will at minium double the GPU/CPU power over X1 (Erista ) / X2 (Parker).

Edit - Seems like there is one device using Tegra Xavier:


But the cooler is not something you will use in a portable and this chip was not developed to the gaming market.
Its a 30 watt chip. It can be downclocked to 10 watts afaik but using Xavier is not the Nintendo way of doing things.

@MrTickles Wii U was not 355 GF. Its a 160 shader chip with some die space being unknown what its use is.
 

ethomaz

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Its a 30 watt chip. It can be downclocked to 10 watts afaik but using Xavier is not the Nintendo way of doing things.
Well there is nothing available to Nintendo yet.

The "Pro" Switch will probably use the same Tegra X1 but with something else to Nintendo call it Pro... in terms of power/performance it will be probably the same (maybe some overclock on Tegra X1 compared with actual Switch).
 
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Redneckerz

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Well there is nothing available to Nintendo yet.

The "Pro" Switch will probably use the same Tegra X1 but with something else to Nintendo call it Pro... in terms of power/performance it will be probably the same (maybe some overclock on Tegra X1 compared with actual Switch).
Until it becomes cheap and superfluous enough, then yeah. And especially, Low Power.
 

blu

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Well there is nothing available to Nintendo yet.

The "Pro" Switch will probably use the same Tegra X1 but with something else to Nintendo call it Pro... in terms of power/performance it will be probably the same (maybe some overclock on Tegra X1 compared with actual Switch).
They have to up the fabnode, or make the device stationary -- it's an either or.
 

ethomaz

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They have to up the fabnode, or make the device stationary -- it's an either or.
Nintendo is not related with fabnode.

The nVidia and Nintendo deal is different from AMD and MS/Sony deal.

MS/Sony deal = AMD design the chip and Sony/MS choose where to produce the chip (that case TSMC) and they can ask AMD do shrink the chip to lower process... that is part of the semi-custom AMD solution.

Nintendo/nVidia deal = nVidia design and produce the chip while Nintendo buys the chip nVidia has to offer... Nintendo has to buy a product in the nVidia's portfolio so they can't ask nVidia to shrink a chip unless they want to pay a lot to nVidia or nVidia choose to shrink it by themselves (that is too hard to happen).

Nintendo is basically tied to what nVidia has in the market:

X1 = what nVidia sells to use on Switch
X2 = no performance jump but better power consumption
Tegra Xavier = not game focused but double performance with power consumption issues for portable size

Or nVidia launch another solution to Nintendo buy it or these are the options that Nintendo has to use.
Of course there Nintendo can ask nVidia to design a custom chip for them but nobody in console market had a happy story in terms of costs when you ask nVidia to do that and they don't like to make custom die shrinks unless you pay a lot of money too (RSX shrink was a big no go... they had more die shrinks on Cell than RSX).

Let's see what nVidia has to announced this year but people are saying Switch "Pro" in few months.
 
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SonGoku

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Nintendo has a BC tradition to uphold, so its very likely they'll go Nvidia again for switch 2, so they must have a long term partnership and Nintendo must be reassured Nvidia will provide a next gen SoC, they must know nvdias future mobile plans.

They could theretically use Xavier but doesn't that have redundant AI bits of no use for gaming, alot of wasted space and money for a console soc
 

DynamiteCop!

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Nintendo has a BC tradition to uphold, so its very likely they'll go Nvidia again for switch 2, so they must have a long term partnership and Nintendo must be reassured Nvidia will provide a next gen SoC, they must know nvdias future mobile plans.

They could theretically use Xavier but doesn't that have redundant AI bits of no use for gaming, alot of wasted space and money for a console soc
BC tradition like abandoning the Virtual Console and all money spent there? Or how about BC like porting 70% of the Wii U library to the Switch slapping all the customers in the face that bought games on their previous platform and then charging for them again?

Sounds like a hell of a tradition...
 
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blu

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Nintendo is not related with fabnode.
They don't need to be fab clients to have strong requirements re fabnodes.

The thermal design reality for nintendo currently is that
1) switch, despite its proper thermal design, is at the edge of TDP viability -- you can bring a docked switch to a thermal shutdown with e.g. splatoons and increased ambient temps.
2) nintendo are not at liberty to beef up the thermal design by sheer proportions, while retaining the portable factor (e.g. VR cardboard), and costs of compact dissipation solutions rise exponentially (i.e. exotic materials).

So something has got to give for the 'pro', and the lowest-hanging fruit there is fabnode.

Let's see what nVidia has to announced this year but people are saying Switch "Pro" in few months.
I doubt nintendo would go for a brand-new design. But we shall see.
 
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SonGoku

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BC tradition like abandoning the Virtual Console and all money spent there? Or how about BC like porting 70% of the Wii U library to the Switch slapping all the customers in the face that bought games on their previous platform and then charging for them again?

Sounds like a hell of a tradition...
The switch was a paradigm shift for Nintendo, anyone with basic tech knowledge knew Wiiu emulation (or even Wii) was not possible. Just like PS3 emulation is not possible on PS4.
Nintendo went to great lengths in designing the wiiu chip so that it would be bc with Wii, even to the point of severely crippling the console specs in the process.

Nintendo struck gold with the switch, they would be foolish to reset the ecosystem by making the switch 2 not bc.
I doubt nintendo would go for a brand-new design. But we shall see.
What are your thoughts on a possible SoC for switch 2, Xavier or something unreleased most likely?
Is Xavier even enough of a next gen leap over current switch?
 
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blu

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What are your thoughts on a possible SoC for switch 2, Xavier or something unreleased most likely?
Is Xavier even enough of a next gen leap over current switch?
I think it will be a parker with the two denver2 cores left as dark silicon. The thermals are inline with what I imagine nintendo would need for a 'pro':


[ed] duh, I noticed only now you were referring to switch2. Possibly something unreleased yet (switch has life ahead).
 
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