• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Digital Foundry-PS5 Pro: How Did Sony Beat Microsoft In Machine Learning For Consoles?

ZehDon

Member
If you say so.

"Xbox Series S/X backward compatibility program officially supports over 1,000 games from the Xbox, Xbox 360, and Xbox One libraries. Backward compatibility on the Xbox Series S/X is limited to officially supported games"

"Sony's PlayStation 5 supports backward compatibility with the majority of the PlayStation 4's library, which itself consists of over 4,000 games."
If you're going to post non-sense, at least make sure it can't easily be fact checked.

Xbox Series X|S plays virtually all Xbox One games, with a very small list of exceptions. That alone is some several thousands of games. The BC program extends to Xbox 360 and OG Xbox games complete disc-based support - however, these titles are selectively supported for various reasons. Virtually all Xbox BC titles from all generations are available for digital purchase today, including OG Xbox games. Using my Xbox Series X, for example, I can insert my Timesplitters: Future Perfect OG Xbox disc or my Oblivion Xbox 360 disc into my console and enjoy these titles with an embarrassment of improvements, including full 4k support and near instant loading. For Series S, this is of course limited to your digital purchases, however, these are supported all the way back to the OG Xbox, with every game and DLC purchased for any Xbox generation being tracked. Heck, they even bring your Avatar and Profile picture purchases along for the ride.

In contrast, Sony doesn't support all of the PS4's library on PS5, with the entire PSVR1 catalogue being unsupported period - unless the developer opted to create a native PSVR2 version, of course. Sony also doesn't support any other PlayStation platform in terms of backwards compatibility - at all. All "PS2 games" on your PS5 are packaged emulation bundles that require a new digital purchase; inserting your PS1, PS2, or PS3 discs simply doesn't work, and digital game and content purchases - including those for PSP and PS Vita - don't work at all unless the purchase also came with a separate digital PS4 license as well.

I enjoy dragging Microsoft through the mud as much as the next nerd, but credit where it's due: their BC program is the absolute gold standard and everyone else is literally generations behind them.
 
Last edited:

PaintTinJr

Member


1eq5jl6.jpg

I love how they completely forget that Miles Morales uses cutting edge AI generated data for all the stomach rendering, and that despite the Sony KD-65X9005a being the launch television with the PS4 - a TV we still own and use - years and years before DLSS/XeSS and the TV pioneered the Sony X1 chip for machine learning upscaling - and was rumoured to be an AMD chip as a result of Sony/AMD's silicon partnership you'd think from the DF video that Sony haven't had the best ML upscaling in their flagship TVs since the PS4.

The obvious reason why Xbox doesn't use ML is because the XsS is too weak and lacks memory and memory bandwidth, and in the event they use it on XsX it will increase task contention on their poorly configured CU setup, proportionally costing more in resource wastage than PC or PS5 resulting in the games not getting the frame-rate uplift which DLSS/XeSS provide, and just getting an AI upscaled 30fps experience., which is 2 steps forward, 2 steps back.
 
I love how they completely forget that Miles Morales uses cutting edge AI generated data for all the stomach rendering, and that despite the Sony KD-65X9005a being the launch television with the PS4 - a TV we still own and use - years and years before DLSS/XeSS and the TV pioneered the Sony X1 chip for machine learning upscaling - and was rumoured to be an AMD chip as a result of Sony/AMD's silicon partnership you'd think from the DF video that Sony haven't had the best ML upscaling in their flagship TVs since the PS4.

The obvious reason why Xbox doesn't use ML is because the XsS is too weak and lacks memory and memory bandwidth, and in the event they use it on XsX it will increase task contention on their poorly configured CU setup, proportionally costing more in resource wastage than PC or PS5 resulting in the games not getting the frame-rate uplift which DLSS/XeSS provide, and just getting an AI upscaled 30fps experience., which is 2 steps forward, 2 steps back.
Yep Sony have being doing some kind of reconstruction with or without ML inference since a long time ago. TVs, CBR in Pro since 2016, frame generation on PSVR games, ML inference for physics in Spider-man games, ML inference texture upscaling in GoW Ragnarok (both real-time). It's only them, the DF crew who are surprised by Sony's PSSR but only because they have been consciously following their MS biased agenda of not reporting all the work Sony has been doing this last decade in those areas.

What did MS do in the last decade in those areas? A lot of PR cheap talks and powerpoint slides. Imagine the number of articles we would have gotten from Digital Foundy if MS were doing ML texture upscaling in Halo Infinite! The second coming of AI upscaling on MS hardware! They would have drowned us with that. But Sony doing it in the last God of war? They never even mentioned it once in their main article. For them Sony is doing temporal upscaling in that game, shameful reporting, lies even! And they are supposed to be impartial tech journalists?

They are Microsoft propagandists!
 
Last edited:

FireFly

Member
The obvious reason why Xbox doesn't use ML is because the XsS is too weak and lacks memory and memory bandwidth, and in the event they use it on XsX it will increase task contention on their poorly configured CU setup, proportionally costing more in resource wastage than PC or PS5 resulting in the games not getting the frame-rate uplift which DLSS/XeSS provide, and just getting an AI upscaled 30fps experience., which is 2 steps forward, 2 steps back.
Even on console class PC GPUs, benchmarks indicate that XeSS does not provide a worthwhile performance increase.


Maybe it will be viable with RDNA 4, if the PS5 Pro's AI capabilities carry over.
 

Zathalus

Member
The first Sony TV to use real time ML upscaling launched in 2021, not 10 years ago. Don't confuse using a pattern recognition algorithm developed with reference images and real-time ML upscaling with each other. Just because it has the word AI in it doesn't actually means it runs real-time AI models to upscale a picture.
 
Last edited:

lucbr

Member
Everyone taking advantage of the audience that the bad Xbox news brings. All news sites, twitter and forums. At this point I see that this is what everyone covering the industry wants, the downfall of Xbox.

It seems like it would be better for almost everyone if Microsoft actually stopped making hardware and focused on its roots, software. Even if it's not what I want personally I'd like to see the results if their games were launched only on PC and cloud. They would let other companies make their Steam Box-like versions and let these companies compete with Switch and Playstation. Games on PlayStation and Switch only if they also allowed Game Pass, which would be almost impossible. For developers it would be great, just focus on PC. That would put an end to the Console War. I would be interested to see the fallout of this scenario.
 

SEGAvangelist

Gold Member
Everyone taking advantage of the audience that the bad Xbox news brings. All news sites, twitter and forums. At this point I see that this is what everyone covering the industry wants, the downfall of Xbox.

It seems like it would be better for almost everyone if Microsoft actually stopped making hardware and focused on its roots, software. Even if it's not what I want personally I'd like to see the results if their games were launched only on PC and cloud. They would let other companies make their Steam Box-like versions and let these companies compete with Switch and Playstation. Games on PlayStation and Switch only if they also allowed Game Pass, which would be almost impossible. For developers it would be great, just focus on PC. That would put an end to the Console War. I would be interested to see the fallout of this scenario.
It's a traffic driver. What's funny is that if MS leaves, where does all that traffic go?
 

PaintTinJr

Member
Even on console class PC GPUs, benchmarks indicate that XeSS does not provide a worthwhile performance increase.


Maybe it will be viable with RDNA 4, if the PS5 Pro's AI capabilities carry over.
Feels like you are trying to downplay XeSS to DLSS

Why would you assume I was talking about XeSS on anything but Intel Arc hardware? It isn't like I was talking about DLSS on AMD or Arc, either was I?
So why single out the parity like benefits of XeSS on Arc and DLSS on RTX?
 

PaintTinJr

Member
The first Sony TV to use real time ML upscaling launched in 2021, not 10 years ago. Don't confuse using a pattern recognition algorithm developed with reference images and real-time ML upscaling with each other. Just because it has the word AI in it doesn't actually means it runs real-time AI models to upscale a picture.
Why be so specific with "real time ML upscaling"? It isn't like any of the other techniques in context (FSR, DLSS, XeSS) are ML specifically when they need motion vectors and can't handle any game or any scene. However the X1chips dual database inference solution of shallow/medium deep Learning, just like the latest Sony sets can take any generic scene and use its inference to enhance the PQ.

The latency of the original X1s certainly isn't ideal compared to FSR, etc but the chips massively improve PQ and do so on any input without being guided by motion vectors, so trying to dismiss this as invalid foundation ML/DL R&D tech a decade before DLSS/XeSS/FSR just seem like denying the reality of how far ahead Sony's TV DSP has been.
 
Last edited:

Zathalus

Member
Why be so specific with "real time ML upscaling"? It isn't like any of the other techniques in context (FSR, DLSS, XeSS) are ML specifically when they need motion vectors and can't handle any game or any scene. However the X1chips dual database inference solution of shallow/medium deep Learning, just like the latest Sony sets can take any generic scene and use its inference to enhance the PQ.

The latency of the original X1s certainly isn't ideal compared to FSR, etc but the chips massively improve PQ and do so on any input without being guided by motion vectors, so trying to dismiss this as invalid foundation ML/DL R&D tech a decade before DLSS/XeSS/FSR just seem like denying the reality of how far ahead Sony's TV DSP has been.
I'm not denying Sony has had the best upscaling and image processing for decades, but it is not (up until very recently) a neural network running in real time. They are fundamentally different things. Even CBR and ML temporal scaling has little in common with each other.
 

FireFly

Member
Feels like you are trying to downplay XeSS to DLSS

Why would you assume I was talking about XeSS on anything but Intel Arc hardware? It isn't like I was talking about DLSS on AMD or Arc, either was I?
So why single out the parity like benefits of XeSS on Arc and DLSS on RTX?
I never said you were talking about XeSS on non-Intel hardware. Your original post left that unclear.

I was addressing how XeSS performs on non-Intel hardware as evidence of the need for more substantial A.I acceleration on AMD parts. And my underlying point is that the architecture available to MS at the time (RDNA 2) was not sufficient for a DLSS/XeSS alternative. I took from your post that such an alternative may have been available to MS with better choices. (Feel free to correct me if my interpretation of your post was wrong).
 

PaintTinJr

Member
I never said you were talking about XeSS on non-Intel hardware. Your original post left that unclear.

I was addressing how XeSS performs on non-Intel hardware as evidence of the need for more substantial A.I acceleration on AMD parts. And my underlying point is that the architecture available to MS at the time (RDNA 2) was not sufficient for a DLSS/XeSS alternative. I took from your post that such an alternative may have been available to MS with better choices. (Feel free to correct me if my interpretation of your post was wrong).
Ah, ok I see what your genuine point was, now....but I wasn't implying Xbox could use XeSS natively. All these techniques are just maths using different compute and algorithm strategies on multiple linear regression, so I was just meaning Xbox could have developed their own solution if they had the expertise to build a good solution and the expertise to optimise with acceptable compromises to run in real-time using the RPM on RDNA2.
 

PaintTinJr

Member
I'm not denying Sony has had the best upscaling and image processing for decades, but it is not (up until very recently) a neural network running in real time. They are fundamentally different things. Even CBR and ML temporal scaling has little in common with each other.
I'm struggling to see how you aren't just repeating the same strawman, where a neural network prerequisite jumped out of nowhere, and a incorrect comparison to CB is being pushed,

Surely the context is DLSS, XeSS and FSR? of which none of those techniques can work without game specific motion vectors and even then still produce
inferior PQ reconstruction compared to the Sony X1 TV chips.
 

Gaiff

Member
Even on console class PC GPUs, benchmarks indicate that XeSS does not provide a worthwhile performance increase.


Maybe it will be viable with RDNA 4, if the PS5 Pro's AI capabilities carry over.
He’s saying the XSs is too weak, the Xbox Series S, not Intel’s XeSS. Additionally, your article is old and XeSS runs much better on Intel GPUs.
 

solidus12

Member
Actually Sony never said once their console was the best

But I remember the 12 TERAFLOPS SUSTAINED TRUE RDNA2 bullshit from Microsoft and their shills in 2020

Come November they won't even have the useless TERAFLOPS number advantage anymore

That's why DF is depressed
I remember Alex Bugaga doubting that Miles Morales would have ray-traced reflections. Based on an image that Insomniac posted prior to the game’s release.
 

Mr.Phoenix

Member
Did you see this?



Thats a poorly-made video. None of the things that should be taken into consideration was actually taken into consideration. I applaud him for having a nice idea though, but its execution was lazy at best or poor at worst.

Eg, in every game tested, he should have used FSR2 4K preset where available. It wouldn't have given us an accurate representation of image quality, but it would have given us on of performance. And oh, he is using the wrong CPU too. But even worse, not running these games at what would be PS5 quality settings. Which is usually a mixture of medium to high PC settings. Not ultra settings.
 

solidus12

Member
I enjoy dragging Microsoft through the mud as much as the next nerd, but credit where it's due: their BC program is the absolute gold standard and everyone else is literally generations behind them.
You forgot to mention that some PS1 classics from the PS3 era that were rereleased on PS5 would be free.

If you’ve bought Syphon Filter as a PS1 classic back in 2010, you’ll get the updated PS5 version (with trophies and rewind feature) for free.
 

ZehDon

Member
You forgot to mention that some PS1 classics from the PS3 era that were rereleased on PS5 would be free...
To split hairs, these aren't BC - they're new licenses for native PS5 releases of, like, four titles (Jumping Flash, Oddworld, Syphon Filter and Toy Story, I think?). Sony giving you a "free copy" of something you already bought while locking out all your other purchases is simply inexcusable - especially when its clearly a ploy to push people to PS+'s terrible "classics" lineup.
 
In contrast, Sony doesn't support all of the PS4's library on PS5, with the entire PSVR1 catalogue being unsupported period -
That's a completely false statement. I sold my PS4 years ago and I've been playing all my PSVR1 games on my PS5 since the PS5's launch date. PSVR2 itself may not support PSVR1 games but the PS5 is fully capable of playing PSVR1 games, all you need to do is plug in a PSVR1 and it works right out of the box and it even boosts the performance and graphics on some of them.
 

Zathalus

Member
I'm struggling to see how you aren't just repeating the same strawman, where a neural network prerequisite jumped out of nowhere, and a incorrect comparison to CB is being pushed,

Surely the context is DLSS, XeSS and FSR? of which none of those techniques can work without game specific motion vectors and even then still produce
inferior PQ reconstruction compared to the Sony X1 TV chips.
It's simple, a neural network ML model is required to resolve all the issues you see with other upscalers, such as image shimmering, ghosting, texture enhancement, and fine detail reconstruction. Hooking into the game motion vectors is a major plus as well, otherwise those ghosting issues do not really get addressed. Hence DLSS/XeSS/PSSR.

The X1 chip in Sony TVs doesn't use any sort of machine learning, it is a 'smart' algorithm that is meant to reduce noise, boost contrast, and help upscaling. It has now been replaced in Sony TVs with chips that actually do appear to use some form of real-time ML to enhance the image, with dramatically better results compared to previous Sony TVs. The Reality Creation function is simply superior to anytime the X1 chip could hope to do.

My original post was that Sony does not jave over a decade of ML upscaling experience due to the TVs. TV upscaling and ML upscaling that PSSR/DLSS use are simply not the same technology. It is true that Sony is very experienced with image processing, that's not what I'm arguing against.

As for your claim that the X1 chip is better then DLSS, I'm not sure if I really want to argue against such a ridiculous claim. I'm pretty sure if you were to make a poll here (or anywhere), almost everyone would disagree with you. I'm actually flabbergasted that anyone can think this. Sony sure are idiots for investing into PSSR then?
 

FireFly

Member
He’s saying the XSs is too weak, the Xbox Series S, not Intel’s XeSS. Additionally, your article is old and XeSS runs much better on Intel GPUs.
I'm aware. My point was that Microsoft were limited by the A.I capabilities of the RDNA 2 architecture, such that even Intel's simplified XeSS model failed to run adequately. The article is old but it is the newest RDNA 2 performance comparison I was able to find.
 
Last edited:

PaintTinJr

Member
It's simple, a neural network ML model is required to resolve all the issues you see with other upscalers, such as image shimmering, ghosting, texture enhancement, and fine detail reconstruction. Hooking into the game motion vectors is a major plus as well, otherwise those ghosting issues do not really get addressed. Hence DLSS/XeSS/PSSR.

The X1 chip in Sony TVs doesn't use any sort of machine learning, it is a 'smart' algorithm that is meant to reduce noise, boost contrast, and help upscaling. It has now been replaced in Sony TVs with chips that actually do appear to use some form of real-time ML to enhance the image, with dramatically better results compared to previous Sony TVs. The Reality Creation function is simply superior to anytime the X1 chip could hope to do.

My original post was that Sony does not jave over a decade of ML upscaling experience due to the TVs. TV upscaling and ML upscaling that PSSR/DLSS use are simply not the same technology. It is true that Sony is very experienced with image processing, that's not what I'm arguing against.

As for your claim that the X1 chip is better then DLSS, I'm not sure if I really want to argue against such a ridiculous claim. I'm pretty sure if you were to make a poll here (or anywhere), almost everyone would disagree with you. I'm actually flabbergasted that anyone can think this. Sony sure are idiots for investing into PSSR then?
Why exactly do you need to tick the neural network box in this discussion about computer game real-time Deep learning upscaling to resolve those issues? You don't, the end result is the acid test of latency and perception to native truth, not whether buzzwords are ticked off.

Your description of the X1 being a "smart" algorithm is incorrect and sounds like you've got confused with the Bravia Engine Pro. The X1 extreme does object recognition and per object deep learning-ish inference for upscaling/enhancement from a dual database - which is common in ML neural network use IIRC, one learning database to fake/upscale and one to independently determine real from fake from a separate dataset -, and even the new rebranded Sony chips are a superset of the previous X1 technology, just that they also use eye tracking and AI to infer what is the important perceived parts of the image and then disproportionately use the superset of X1 techniques to enhance those areas more per frame.

"Better" as in can do the job successfully without any guidance from motion vectors, not better in absolute terms.

I was playing TK8 on a 4080 Super and C1 OLED at 4K using DLSS performance the other night at a friends and was massively underwhelmed by how it compared to the PS5 demo on my ZD9. By contrast my friend mistakenly thought I owned a PS4 Pro like him - at Death Stranding's launch week - when he saw Death Stranding on my ZD9 and didn't clock the narrower FOV and on PQ alone felt it was as good or better than his 4K TV DS PQ on the PS4 Pro,, so much so he replaced the TV in the following week. If you had researched and bought a Sony X9 flagship TV with the original X1 chip you would know that it is doing a lot more than the Bravia Engines were doing and is origin signal processing R&D for DL reconstruction, only separated from the gaming side by the TV divisions lack of need to use 10% or less resources of a commodity console, deliver the image with sub 13.3ms latency and to do it without any additional guidance or context from motion vectors.
 

Zathalus

Member
Why exactly do you need to tick the neural network box in this discussion about computer game real-time Deep learning upscaling to resolve those issues? You don't, the end result is the acid test of latency and perception to native truth, not whether buzzwords are ticked off.
Neural net = deep learning upscaling. You can't have one without the other. XeSS/DLSS/PSSR all utilize one. It's not a buzzword, it allows these upscalers to do what they do so well, a neural net is trained in a supercomputer against a massive amount of data and then that same neural net runs in real time. Hence why not everyone can simply create one as the investment is quite high.

Your description of the X1 being a "smart" algorithm is incorrect and sounds like you've got confused with the Bravia Engine Pro. The X1 extreme does object recognition and per object deep learning-ish inference for upscaling/enhancement from a dual database - which is common in ML neural network use IIRC, one learning database to fake/upscale and one to independently determine real from fake from a separate dataset -, and even the new rebranded Sony chips are a superset of the previous X1 technology, just that they also use eye tracking and AI to infer what is the important perceived parts of the image and then disproportionately use the superset of X1 techniques to enhance those areas more per frame.

No, I am referring to the X1 chip. The algorithm is indeed trained on a offline database for object and color recognition but it simply does noise reduction, contrast and picture enhancement, and edge detection and sharpening (on a per object basis). There is no real time ML or AI involved in the TV itself, the chip is simply not powerful enough (which is the only thing in arguing about, that it is not real time ML upscaling). It is (well was) the best image processing chip around, but it was not really a replacement for dedicated upscaling. On games of course, video it is ideally suited for and the newer Sony chips still beat other upscalers on video content.

That being said, it is obviously better then not using a dedicated chip. Nothing is preventing anyone from using the X1 (or newer chips) in combination with DLSS/XeSS/PSSR.

"Better" as in can do the job successfully without any guidance from motion vectors, not better in absolute terms.
You are not fixing ghosting without motion vectors. No TV upscaler can do this on a TAA image.

I was playing TK8 on a 4080 Super and C1 OLED at 4K using DLSS performance the other night at a friends and was massively underwhelmed by how it compared to the PS5 demo on my ZD9. By contrast my friend mistakenly thought I owned a PS4 Pro like him - at Death Stranding's launch week - when he saw Death Stranding on my ZD9 and didn't clock the narrower FOV and on PQ alone felt it was as good or better than his 4K TV DS PQ on the PS4 Pro,, so much so he replaced the TV in the following week. If you had researched and bought a Sony X9 flagship TV with the original X1 chip you would know that it is doing a lot more than the Bravia Engines were doing and is origin signal processing R&D for DL reconstruction, only separated from the gaming side by the TV divisions lack of need to use 10% or less resources of a commodity console, deliver the image with sub 13.3ms latency and to do it without any additional guidance or context from motion vectors.

Tekken on PS5 is above 1440p upscaled to 4k via TAA and a spatial upscaler. DLSS performance on the other hand is 1080p to 4k. So you are not comparing like for like. The ZD9 and C1 are also very different TVs so that further alters the comparison. The C1 has better contrast but the ZD9 is far brighter.
 

Mr Moose

Member
Probably should read the other posts directly beneath that one (y) And I believe you still need the camera adapter for PSVR1, which I don't believe is included in the box.
It's like a Kinect, except that doesn't work at all with Series X.
Edit: Never mind, Kinect is way worse, why does it have so many different parts?
80f8f61a-c2ec-45d6-9ecf-5461d959aafb.png
 
Last edited:
To split hairs, these aren't BC - they're new licenses for native PS5 releases of, like, four titles (Jumping Flash, Oddworld, Syphon Filter and Toy Story, I think?). Sony giving you a "free copy" of something you already bought while locking out all your other purchases is simply inexcusable - especially when its clearly a ploy to push people to PS+'s terrible "classics" lineup.
PS5 still has way more BC games just from PSVR and PS4 alone. They're also adding more like you mentioned. While Xbox has a fraction of their libraries and quit the program entirely . . .
 

Mr Moose

Member
PS5 still has way more BC games just from PSVR and PS4 alone. They're also adding more like you mentioned. While Xbox has a fraction of their libraries and quit the program entirely . . .
Is it because they do BC differently? I believe PS5 is native/hardware and Series X is software/needs internet.
 

PaintTinJr

Member
Neural net = deep learning upscaling. You can't have one without the other. XeSS/DLSS/PSSR all utilize one. It's not a buzzword, it allows these upscalers to do what they do so well, a neural net is trained in a supercomputer against a massive amount of data and then that same neural net runs in real time. Hence why not everyone can simply create one as the investment is quite high.
Pretend like people reading that paragraph don't know what a neural network is, in its absolute most basic form in context of Deep learning, and probably feel you've just used it as a buzzword, so they aren't familiar with multiple linear regression mathematics, and probably don't get that the end result of DL/training a model is maths equations that facilitate inference from varying amounts of input data.

From what you've said where is the refuting that the X1 chip's two database system aren't two nodes of a network? And just for consistency you keep saying ML but how exactly is DLSS or XeSS AI ML? AFAIK neither of these algorithms produce anything but deterministic results for each DLSS version that's been trained for a game. Is that not the case? Are these algorithms learning and diverging from results other gamers are getting with the same DLSS version and games?
 

mitchman

Gold Member
The numbers are the numbers, but PS5 has consistently outperformed Xbox this generation, even in Microsoft games, even in Microsoft games that were ported late to the Xbox. Ghostwire Tokyo is better on PS5 even though it came out a year earlier. Either something is off with the Xbox numbers or MS doesn't give a shit.
It just goes to show that Tf numbers alone is not enough to explain a console's GPU performance. People seems to forget all the metrics where the PS5 is significantly faster than XSX, eg. triangle culling rate is +20% for the PS5 (17.84 BT/s vs 14.6 BT/s), 20% faster fillrate on the PS5 (142.72 GPixel/s vs 116.8 GPixel/s), triangle rasterization seems 21% PS5 advantage. The higher clock also gives other advantages such as faster caches etc. on the PS5. So there's more to it than just blindly looking at some Tf number.
 

ZehDon

Member
PS5 still has way more BC games just from PSVR and PS4 alone. They're also adding more like you mentioned. While Xbox has a fraction of their libraries and quit the program entirely . . .
Talk about delusional...
PlayStation 5 supports 99% of PS4 games, but it has no proper backwards compatibility support for any other PlayStation platform, and 99% of digital purchases prior to PS4 - such as PS1 classics - don't work. It does have a handful of re-packaged PS2 games but you have to buy them again. If you want to play older PlayStation titles, such as PlayStation 1 titles, you need to subscribe to PS+, however, the emulation doesn't compare with virtually any fan-made emulator available today, and the list of available titles is miniscule.
Xbox Series X|S supports 99% of Xbone games, but it also has support for hundreds of Xbox 360 titles and a several dozen OG Xbox titles, and all your digital purchases from OG Xbox forward are supported, including DLC. If you own a supported title - either digitally or disc - it works free of charge, but nearly all BC games are available for digital purchase in case you want to buy some older titles you don't own yet.
Xbox didn't "quit the program", they finished the program: there are no more titles they're able to add due to either tech reasons or licensing/permission issues.
 

Fafalada

Fafracer forever
And I believe you still need the camera adapter for PSVR1, which I don't believe is included in the box.
Not in the box, but Sony ships it for free to PSVR owners on PS5.

To split hairs, these aren't BC - they're new licenses for native PS5 releases of
The only thing that is distinctive here is the 'license can't be activated by inserting a disc' which I agree - Sony abandoned too quickly. Besides that it's the same thing you get on XBox consoles too - there's a digital license for every BC title, if that doesn't exist - title isn't playable.
And that's by design - licensing is the main thing preventing these libraries to be all inclusive, on any console.
 

Lysandros

Member
It just goes to show that Tf numbers alone is not enough to explain a console's GPU performance. People seems to forget all the metrics where the PS5 is significantly faster than XSX, eg. triangle culling rate is +20% for the PS5 (17.84 BT/s vs 14.6 BT/s), 20% faster fillrate on the PS5 (142.72 GPixel/s vs 116.8 GPixel/s), triangle rasterization seems 21% PS5 advantage. The higher clock also gives other advantages such as faster caches etc. on the PS5. So there's more to it than just blindly looking at some Tf number.
The only purest and truest number is 12 (which comes after 11 and before 13) of thy holiest XSX tea flops. The numbers you unashamedly divulged are mere mirage induced deceitful, sinful fakes. And very naughty ones at that.
 

ZehDon

Member
The only thing that is distinctive here is the 'license can't be activated by inserting a disc' ... Besides that it's the same thing you get on XBox...
... that's a monstrous distinction. Holy shit. One requires you to buy a subscription to play a worse version of the same thing you already bought, the other is an enhanced version of the game provided at no cost that can be backed up and kept. That doesn't get hand waved away.
 
If you're going to post non-sense, at least make sure it can't easily be fact checked.

Xbox Series X|S plays virtually all Xbox One games, with a very small list of exceptions. That alone is some several thousands of games. The BC program extends to Xbox 360 and OG Xbox games complete disc-based support - however, these titles are selectively supported for various reasons. Virtually all Xbox BC titles from all generations are available for digital purchase today, including OG Xbox games. Using my Xbox Series X, for example, I can insert my Timesplitters: Future Perfect OG Xbox disc or my Oblivion Xbox 360 disc into my console and enjoy these titles with an embarrassment of improvements, including full 4k support and near instant loading. For Series S, this is of course limited to your digital purchases, however, these are supported all the way back to the OG Xbox, with every game and DLC purchased for any Xbox generation being tracked. Heck, they even bring your Avatar and Profile picture purchases along for the ride.

In contrast, Sony doesn't support all of the PS4's library on PS5, with the entire PSVR1 catalogue being unsupported period - unless the developer opted to create a native PSVR2 version, of course. Sony also doesn't support any other PlayStation platform in terms of backwards compatibility - at all. All "PS2 games" on your PS5 are packaged emulation bundles that require a new digital purchase; inserting your PS1, PS2, or PS3 discs simply doesn't work, and digital game and content purchases - including those for PSP and PS Vita - don't work at all unless the purchase also came with a separate digital PS4 license as well.

I enjoy dragging Microsoft through the mud as much as the next nerd, but credit where it's due: their BC program is the absolute gold standard and everyone else is literally generations behind them.

Top post

Xbox BC progam is not to be fucked with.
 
Talk about delusional...
PlayStation 5 supports 99% of PS4 games, but it has no proper backwards compatibility support for any other PlayStation platform, and 99% of digital purchases prior to PS4 - such as PS1 classics - don't work. It does have a handful of re-packaged PS2 games but you have to buy them again. If you want to play older PlayStation titles, such as PlayStation 1 titles, you need to subscribe to PS+, however, the emulation doesn't compare with virtually any fan-made emulator available today, and the list of available titles is miniscule.
Xbox Series X|S supports 99% of Xbone games, but it also has support for hundreds of Xbox 360 titles and a several dozen OG Xbox titles, and all your digital purchases from OG Xbox forward are supported, including DLC. If you own a supported title - either digitally or disc - it works free of charge, but nearly all BC games are available for digital purchase in case you want to buy some older titles you don't own yet.
Xbox didn't "quit the program", they finished the program: there are no more titles they're able to add due to either tech reasons or licensing/permission issues.
So less games and not doing any more like I said . . .
 

Zathalus

Member
Pretend like people reading that paragraph don't know what a neural network is, in its absolute most basic form in context of Deep learning, and probably feel you've just used it as a buzzword, so they aren't familiar with multiple linear regression mathematics, and probably don't get that the end result of DL/training a model is maths equations that facilitate inference from varying amounts of input data.

From what you've said where is the refuting that the X1 chip's two database system aren't two nodes of a network? And just for consistency you keep saying ML but how exactly is DLSS or XeSS AI ML? AFAIK neither of these algorithms produce anything but deterministic results for each DLSS version that's been trained for a game. Is that not the case? Are these algorithms learning and diverging from results other gamers are getting with the same DLSS version and games?
Yes DLSS is deterministic, it would be odd if everyone got different results. My only point it that Sony upscalers in the TVs are not using the same ML methods found in DLSS/XeSS and almost certainly PSSR.

I'm not claiming Sony TV upscalers are not good (they are), or that ML wasn't used in some part of the development, or that Sony will have zero experience with image processing. Just that DLSS and TV upscaling are quite different technologies, so it's not like Sony has a decade of experience with it.
 
Xbox BC Its the amaaing, but sadly Microsoft has turned its back on it. There must be more 360 and OG Xbox titles the team could bring over if they tried that don't have rights issues and It is a beat of stretch by the pandering Playstation boys that's is DF to say it beaten Microsoft to ML. We haven't even seen SONY's new offering or the PS5 Pro in action just yet.
 

Ashamam

Member
TV upscaling and ML upscaling that PSSR/DLSS use are simply not the same technology. It is true that Sony is very experienced with image processing, that's not what I'm arguing against.
To be fair, we don't know what technology PSSR uses. It could borrow from both techniques. For instance the acquisition of iSIZE brought in-house various ML techniques for improving IQ off lower bitrate and who knows what other benefits. So its a bit early to just say PSSR is Sony's DLSS and jobs done. The very fact it includes Spectral in its name suggests that it leans on video techniques in some way or form. It also takes the same inputs as its competitors so to me the default expectation right now is its a frankenstein between cutting edge video methods and maybe more contemporary game methods.
 
Last edited:

Zathalus

Member
To be fair, we don't know what technology PSSR uses. It could borrow from both techniques. For instance the acquisition of iSIZE brought in-house various ML techniques for improving IQ off lower bitrate and who knows what other benefits. So its a bit early to just say PSSR is Sony's DLSS and jobs done. The very fact it includes Spectral in its name suggests that it leans on video techniques in some way or form. It also takes the same inputs as its competitors so to me the default expectation right now is its a frankenstein between cutting edge video methods and maybe more contemporary game methods.
It might be, but the 300 TOPS number of the specs leads me to believe it is similar to DLSS. I could be completely wrong of course.
 
Top Bottom