Digital Foundry: Wolfenstein 2 on Switch: can mobile hardware really run a cutting-edge shooter?

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Why not? I paid for it, I expect the games to run at that resolution.
I paid for it and I expect studios to make the choices that they believe to be best for their game.

It has a built-in gyro; I expect every game to use motion control. It has a camera; I expect every game to use the camera; I paid for it. It has wifi; I expect every game to have online multiplayer.
 
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I paid for it and I expect studios to make the choices that they believe to be best for their game.

It has a built-in gyro; I expect every game to use motion control. It has a camera; I expect every game to use the camera; I paid for it. It has wifi; I expect every game to have online multiplayer.
We are at the point where Nintendo fans are comparing gimmicks like a camera with the screen resolution. Time to leave the boat.
 
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Would you have preferred the game to not exist on Switch instead?
Some people are willing to accept the significant compromises that had to be made to get the game running so they can play it on their platform of choice, and that’s fine. Others have the right, after seeing the footage, to explain why it’s not good enough for them.

Again— it’s amazing that the game works on Switch at all. The dev team deserves credit for its wizardry. That said, I wouldn’t spend money on it as I keep my Switch docked 97% of the time and my Xbox One X just destroys the Switch in performance. The gap is just far too wide, as DOOM was.
 
Yes my PS4 Pro would destroy this visually, maybe its because portable gaming for me was the original Gameboy, the GameGear or even before that it was the Donkey Kong Junior Coleco Tabletop, which was basically a backlit game with minor controls with the challenge of the game being timing. So I'm actually pretty impressed by this on the Switch, having never really being into the Wolfenstein games I might actually pick this up.
 
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Some people are willing to accept the significant compromises that had to be made to get the game running so they can play it on their platform of choice, and that’s fine. Others have the right, after seeing the footage, to explain why it’s not good enough for them.

Again— it’s amazing that the game works on Switch at all. The dev team deserves credit for its wizardry. That said, I wouldn’t spend money on it as I keep my Switch docked 97% of the time and my Xbox One X just destroys the Switch in performance. The gap is just far too wide, as DOOM was.
I wouldn't buy it either but it seems like a competent port of a pretty high end game to mobile hardware. It's certainly a better FPS than anything else on mobile at the moment so at least the choice is there for people to buy a switch version.
 
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The game itself is meh, but the 1:1 port is significant in that it shows you can bring a fully featured, high end triple A title to the switch rather quickly. Well doom did that, but this seems to be a step up in terms of performance and visual complexity. It looks great on the portable screen itself; I tried it at EB, but I don't go for shooters on console when I'm equipped with a PC. MAny people will appreciate and buy it. Good for them and the choices they get.
 
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I feel that doom and wolfenstein ports hinged on them being 60 fps originally. If they were pretty 30 fps shooters they would've needed to change geometries of levels and models on top of other reductions made to get it to run on switch.
 
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I feel that doom and wolfenstein ports hinged on them being 60 fps originally. If they were pretty 30 fps shooters they would've needed to change geometries of levels and models on top of other reductions made to get it to run on switch.
If you watched the video, the geometry is as a matter of fact quite intact (which is impressive) - it's the resolution and asset quality that takes the hit.

But yeah, in my oh-so-humble opinion, the resolution drop, especially combined with the reduced texture quality/filtering, makes for quite rough visuals. And 30fps too, sure. Perhaps it's better as portable, but to say it'd look better on a large screen on a docked Switch is just delusional. It does not, and if you feel that way, prescription lenses or Lasik are a good thing, you should look into those.
 
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If you watched the video, the geometry is as a matter of fact quite intact (which is impressive) - it's the resolution and asset quality that takes the hit.

But yeah, in my oh-so-humble opinion, the resolution drop, especially combined with the reduced texture quality/filtering, makes for quite rough visuals. And 30fps too, sure. Perhaps it's better as portable, but to say it'd look better on a large screen on a docked Switch is just delusional. It does not, and if you feel that way, prescription lenses or Lasik are a good thing, you should look into those.
I think you misunderstood me, I know the switch is 30 fps with geometries intact.

I was referring to the fact that cutting down fps down to 30 from 60 is what allowed the ports on the switch, if Doom and Wolf2 were pretty 30 fps shooters originally, then they would've had to mess with geometries to the point it would've been too much work to bother with.

I did end up buying the game for switch mainly to show my support for Bethesda on switch, but I really feel like playing the game I'll get it on Xbox One X or PC. <.<
 

Redneckerz

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These are actual Switch screen shots taken from the system, this is the most god awful blurry mess I've ever seen.



I saw that shot on ERA. Also shows most shaders missing aswell.
You do know that you have cherry picked this shot, right? Because that isnt how it looks all the time. There are a few scenes that are really, really blurry, but you present this pic as if its the norm. Its not. Nor do you mention if this is docked/undocked.

Ill happily look up the source pic where you got this from but by all means, add in details instead of making such a post devoid of it :)

The 'technical achievement' doesn't negate the horrible results.
That is, ofcourse, if you take your posted pic as norm. I am all for criticizing this port but atleast do so with nuance and honesty, as i feel like this isnt done right now.

Why not? I paid for it, I expect the games to run at that resolution.
I didn't. But PS3 and Xbox360 weren't sold as portable systems with 720p screens. If that was the situation I would have been there saying the same.
A lot of titles, both on Switch and on stationary consoles don't run native. This is especially true of the last-gen, where PS360 both had differing resolutions below 720p. This was so often (Although Unreal Engine 3 did do native 720p quite nice, but often without AA) that if we follow your logic, you would have not played most of the third party last gen titles out there because they all werent native 720p.

Don't you think that's a rather hard rule to uphold? There are numerous explanations as to why sub-HD was employed back then.

I paid for it and I expect studios to make the choices that they believe to be best for their game.

It has a built-in gyro; I expect every game to use motion control. It has a camera; I expect every game to use the camera; I paid for it. It has wifi; I expect every game to have online multiplayer.
Either this is satire towards Royox, or well.. those expectations are not the greatest, imo.
 
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A lot of titles, both on Switch and on stationary consoles don't run native. This is especially true of the last-gen, where PS360 both had differing resolutions below 720p. This was so often (Although Unreal Engine 3 did do native 720p quite nice, but often without AA) that if we follow your logic, you would have not played most of the third party last gen titles out there because they all werent native 720p.

Don't you think that's a rather hard rule to uphold? There are numerous explanations as to why sub-HD was employed back then.
Again. Switch is a portable system and comes with a screen. Games should run at least at the resolution of the screen the console comes with IMO. What they did with Xenoblade 2 undocked was horrible with half the game being a blurry unplayable mess and it seems this will be the norm now with every "actual gen port".

I don't care about textures but my gosh at least keep the resolution to the one of the screen you are selling.
 

Redneckerz

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Again. Switch is a portable system and comes with a screen. Games should run at least at the resolution of the screen the console comes with IMO. What they did with Xenoblade 2 undocked was horrible with half the game being a blurry unplayable mess and it seems this will be the norm now with every "actual gen port".
You know, i always wondered how mobile games do this on phones and on TV boxes. I've found that when people test these, they hardly ever mention resolution or framerate. I recall that Vita titles could drop below 544p aswell.

I think this is a per-case scenario. Because Paladins also runs sub-native undocked, but you could explain this as wanting to keep close to as 60 fps as possible. On other games, dropping to sub-native gets compromised by blur, reconstruction techniques, or other. I recall that UE4's temporal reconstruction tech is pretty impressive and does wonders on low resolutions.

The example you did pick is actually quite a good one for your opinion, because Xenoblade 2 was indeed very blurry. It and Wolfie are probably among the worst when it comes to IQ in undocked mode.

But, in the case of Wolfie, i also would take into account the gameplay. Is it compromised to the point where the game is completely unplayable? That still is a point of (subjective) discussion and might be different for everyone. The portability aspect is a very, very enticing one for many people, who buy such a port on that merit alone and forgive the IQ on that game.

Wolfie does run at native res on undocked though, but it is usually when little goes on. There are so many resolutions to pick from, its rather difficult to pinpoint what the game runs on on average. John didn't do it either, but he did assert that it is usually 540p, but i am not sure if it was docked or undocked. So that is around Vita resolution.
 
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I saw that shot on ERA. Also shows most shaders missing aswell.
You do know that you have cherry picked this shot, right? Because that isnt how it looks all the time. There are a few scenes that are really, really blurry, but you present this pic as if its the norm. Its not. Nor do you mention if this is docked/undocked.

Ill happily look up the source pic where you got this from but by all means, add in details instead of making such a post devoid of it :)


That is, ofcourse, if you take your posted pic as norm. I am all for criticizing this port but atleast do so with nuance and honesty, as i feel like this isnt done right now.


A lot of titles, both on Switch and on stationary consoles don't run native. This is especially true of the last-gen, where PS360 both had differing resolutions below 720p. This was so often (Although Unreal Engine 3 did do native 720p quite nice, but often without AA) that if we follow your logic, you would have not played most of the third party last gen titles out there because they all werent native 720p.

Don't you think that's a rather hard rule to uphold? There are numerous explanations as to why sub-HD was employed back then.


Either this is satire towards Royox, or well.. those expectations are not the greatest, imo.
I'm saying that just because a console you've paid for has a certain capability doesn't mean that it's a good or reasonable expectation that every game take advantage of it. Every decision should ideally be in service of the game; not because Royox emptied his piggy bank.
 

Panajev2001a

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You know, i always wondered how mobile games do this on phones and on TV boxes. I've found that when people test these, they hardly ever mention resolution or framerate. I recall that Vita titles could drop below 544p aswell.

I think this is a per-case scenario. Because Paladins also runs sub-native undocked, but you could explain this as wanting to keep close to as 60 fps as possible. On other games, dropping to sub-native gets compromised by blur, reconstruction techniques, or other. I recall that UE4's temporal reconstruction tech is pretty impressive and does wonders on low resolutions.

The example you did pick is actually quite a good one for your opinion, because Xenoblade 2 was indeed very blurry. It and Wolfie are probably among the worst when it comes to IQ in undocked mode.

But, in the case of Wolfie, i also would take into account the gameplay. Is it compromised to the point where the game is completely unplayable? That still is a point of (subjective) discussion and might be different for everyone. The portability aspect is a very, very enticing one for many people, who buy such a port on that merit alone and forgive the IQ on that game.

Wolfie does run at native res on undocked though, but it is usually when little goes on. There are so many resolutions to pick from, its rather difficult to pinpoint what the game runs on on average. John didn't do it either, but he did assert that it is usually 540p, but i am not sure if it was docked or undocked. So that is around Vita resolution.
With DOOM not only the visuals were blurry in hanhdheld mod, but the frame rate cut to 30 FPS actively hurt the gameplay designed around very fast movement and quick reaction times.
 

Redneckerz

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Yes, and those Vita titles got mocked just like here...
But when games do this, does it actually limit the amount of fun you can have with them?

I'm saying that just because a console you've paid for has a certain capability doesn't mean that it's a good or reasonable expectation that every game take advantage of it. Every decision should ideally be in service of the game; not because Royox emptied his piggy bank.
I agree. So it was satire, apologies. :)

With DOOM not only the visuals were blurry in hanhdheld mod, but the frame rate cut to 30 FPS actively hurt the gameplay designed around very fast movement and quick reaction times.
Didn't the Switch actively went against this by going for fewer enemies? (Actually, i recall that John said that playing it on easier difficulties kept the gameplay on point, as it was actively the higher difficulties that took even more strain on the gameplay.)
 
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blu

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Oy, he got banned even, i am not sure what for though :O
I purposefully didn't quote you since you went indepth in your commentary later, whilst the FIPO was just arguing rather negatively and provocative without reason.

That being said Blu, glad you are here, i might want to have a talk with you on the Wii U. :3
That'd require a permission from my kids who've undisputedly take over the wiiU as a splatoon + mario machine. My switch is my retreat : )

I feel like Nintendo made things a bit awkward by launching on a 2013 fabrication node (28nm) in 2017. This example and a few others show the Switch could benefit from an update from the several die shrinks it has available now, as many of these dynamic res games would automatically benefit, but it's also been just over a year since the initial hardware launch, so early adopters might feel burned.
TX1 is one of the very few designs (along with some apple devices) fabricated on TSMC 20nm planar. Of course its TSMC 16ff shrink is long overdue.
 
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all this being said, if the eshop had sales like Steam, I'd absolutely buy this and Doom for a fiver each in a years time. I know it's the worst way to play the game, and the worst looking way, but I'm still curious about it, enough to drop a few hours in
 
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Tip. Stop playing other games for a while and as your eyes start to get used to the graphics it will start to look next gen 😊
 

Redneckerz

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That'd require a permission from my kids who've undisputedly take over the wiiU as a splatoon + mario machine. My switch is my retreat : )


TX1 is one of the very few designs (along with some apple devices) fabricated on TSMC 20nm planar. Of course its TSMC 16ff shrink is long overdue.
Can you ask them kindly? /offtopic :)
 

blu

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Ah, I ass-umed 28nm. Didn't most companies skip 20nm for leakage and/or yield, now that I'm remembering it?
Indeed. There was an (nvidia?) chart somewhere plotting the gains from 20nm vs 28nm and they were.. well, minimal.
 
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But, if you intend to play it on Docked exclusively, than expect PS360 levels of IQ, with a blurriness filter on top. Technically its a generation beyond those consoles, but IQ wise, the blurriness exceptionally hurts the Docked version. Still, by no means does that make the game unplayable or terrible, but realistic expectations have to be in check.
Nintendo fans rewriting history, just like how Crysis could run on a Wii if they made it 480p. Developers leaving money on the table guys!
 

Redneckerz

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Nintendo fans rewriting history, just like how Crysis could run on a Wii if they made it 480p. Developers leaving money on the table guys!
I am not sure how i should respond to the Nintendo fan commentary. Do you think i am one because of the post i quoted?

Useless Trivia:
  • Crysis 3 was running on Wii U and was near-shippable before cancellation because EA/Nintendo couldn't work things out.
  • Crysis on Wii would for sure be impossible due to the nature of the Wii architecture, unless everything was translated to a fixed function TEV shader. For a port, that would be a extreme undertaking.
 
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I am not sure how i should respond to the Nintendo fan commentary. Do you think i am one because of the post i quoted?

Useless Trivia:
  • Crysis 3 was running on Wii U and was near-shippable before cancellation because EA/Nintendo couldn't work things out.
  • Crysis on Wii would for sure be impossible due to the nature of the Wii architecture, unless everything was translated to a fixed function TEV shader. For a port, that would be a extreme undertaking.
I was referring to the Nintendo/Switch fanbase and their armchair takes.
 

Panajev2001a

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But when games do this, does it actually limit the amount of fun you can have with them?


I agree. So it was satire, apologies. :)


Didn't the Switch actively went against this by going for fewer enemies? (Actually, i recall that John said that playing it on easier difficulties kept the gameplay on point, as it was actively the higher difficulties that took even more strain on the gameplay.)
Tried, but while changing the gameplay by changing the difficulty and enemies placement or other factors could work this is yet another push to make something closer to being a tech demo than DOOM 2016 as people have experienced it. Panic Button knew that and that is why they likely explored that direction, but held back. These two options, pushed further, fundamentally change the game into something it is not: either the gameplay is changed to suit 30 FPS or the gameplay is unable to be fully expressed as it was meant to because of the jump from 60 FPS to 30 FPS.

Not all games suffer from framerate changes like that, but some games do.
 
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To the average person this doesn't look any different

Thank God I don't care about unnoticeable performance obsession and get to enjoy these games on the Go:cool:

For my needs and uses, this is perfectly fine

I'd get the game on ps4 if I had the time to sit down and play video games, but haven't had that time since Uncharted 4 - the switch is the only way I've been able to fit in gaming, it's absolutely wonderful

This game is on my "to buy" list. Its a fantastic looking port given the hardware. remarkable what that tegra chip can do.
 
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Redneckerz

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I was referring to the Nintendo/Switch fanbase and their armchair takes.
And who would that be? Because that cite you made was a response to your post originally.

Tried, but while changing the gameplay by changing the difficulty and enemies placement or other factors could work this is yet another push to make something closer to being a tech demo than DOOM 2016 as people have experienced it. Panic Button knew that and that is why they likely explored that direction, but held back. These two options, pushed further, fundamentally change the game into something it is not: either the gameplay is changed to suit 30 FPS or the gameplay is unable to be fully expressed as it was meant to because of the jump from 60 FPS to 30 FPS.

Not all games suffer from framerate changes like that, but some games do.
It will be certainly interesting to see what choices PB will do with Warframe Switch.
I happened to gave BLOPS 3 PS360 a look today which also has a 30 fps cap. This might just be because of the devs involved, but you can tell that the gameplay is compromised there. In general, these ports should make an interesting case for a thread, just to have some discussion going on with them :)
 
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blu

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Tried, but while changing the gameplay by changing the difficulty and enemies placement or other factors could work this is yet another push to make something closer to being a tech demo than DOOM 2016 as people have experienced it. Panic Button knew that and that is why they likely explored that direction, but held back. These two options, pushed further, fundamentally change the game into something it is not: either the gameplay is changed to suit 30 FPS or the gameplay is unable to be fully expressed as it was meant to because of the jump from 60 FPS to 30 FPS.

Not all games suffer from framerate changes like that, but some games do.
While what you say is generally true, it might not be in some surprising cases. Case in point: Super Mario 3D Land -- the 'black sheep' of 30fps in the 60fps-or-it-did-not-happen universe of 3D Mario platformers. Yes, the game was made for 30fps from the get go, but virtually nothing from its mechanics could not be found in any other 'canonical' 3D Mario, so there you go -- everything that we've been swearing to Dear God that it could never be done at anything less than 60fps runs *and* plays perfectly fine at 30fps, to the last acrobatic jump. Of course some people swear SM3DL gave them the herpes, but that does not change the fact the game remains the most popular 3D Mario in recent history.
 
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Panajev2001a

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the game remains the most popular 3D Mario in recent history.
Ahem... I do enjoy SM3D Land a lot, especially because of 3DS's 3D feature, and I do enjoy SM64 a LOT too (and the latter is also 30 FPS AFAIK), but Super Mario Odyssey is a tad more popular and a better game than both 3D Mario Land and 3D Mario World... ;).

Still, I can see your point... but after having spent money on it and tried to enjoy it (I will try more), I cannot put it close to the experience of the original DOOM 2016 on consoles.
 

blu

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Ahem... I do enjoy SM3D Land a lot, especially because of 3DS's 3D feature, and I do enjoy SM64 a LOT too (and the latter is also 30 FPS AFAIK), but Super Mario Odyssey is a tad more popular and a better game than both 3D Mario Land and 3D Mario World... ;).
Hmm, when did that happen? SM3DL: https://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/en/finance/software/3ds.html
Odyssey just passed 10M at the end of April: https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2018-04-26-super-mario-odyssey-passes-10m-sales-milestone

Of course, Odyssey will surpass SM3DL eventually. And I did entirely forget about SM64 -- that did run at (non-constant) 30fps.

Still, I can see your point... but after having spent money on it and tried to enjoy it (I will try more), I cannot put it close to the experience of the original DOOM 2016 on consoles.
I haven't played DOOM on the switch yet, but given how historically id tech games I've played have not been of the 60fps-or-bust type, and that I don't own anything else to play DOOM on this gen, I will give you my "unspoiled-by-60fps" opinion soon : )
 
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Panajev2001a

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Hmm, when did that happen? SM3DL: https://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/en/finance/software/3ds.html
Odyssey just passed 10M at the end of April: https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2018-04-26-super-mario-odyssey-passes-10m-sales-milestone

Of course, Odyssey will surpass SM3DL eventually. And I did entirely forget about SM64 -- that did run at (non-constant) 30fps.


I haven't played DOOM on the switch yet, but given how historically id tech games I've played have not been of the 60fps-or-bust type, and that I don't own anything else to play DOOM on this gen, I will give you my "unspoiled-by-60fps" opinion soon : )
You really need to at least visit a friend and try it in its original form on a decent TV/monitor + audio combo as the audio on Switch is compromised a bit too (... and yes, soundtrack and effects play a big part too). Look, the fact that it was born out of an original FPS multiplayer battle arena tech demo still show (they talk about it in the documentary that was made a while back) and I was soooo unsold on it.... really negative on it...... until impulse purchase due to the overwhelming positive response... and oh boy... what a nice overall package :D!
 
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