Support NeoGAF

[VFXVeteran]

Never understood the obsession with ultra settings you can barely tell the difference from high, especially when in motion.

dial all that garbage down abit then you can have your 4K cream pie.

but then again chasing 4K is equally a waste of power too.

That is a gross underestimation of what the graphics settings do as well as knowing the difference. The graphics settings enhance the quality of the render. You can't get to CG without implementing those ultra features as they evolve from generation to generation. They present very high quality rendering, that when coupled together, give excellent results. For example, why would anyone resort to a setting less than 16x when trying to filter textures (which is so important to the quality of rendering)? As another example, having volumetric light sources set to the highest detail level is glaringly obvious compared to a lower setting (which doesn't implement a good the post-process tone mapping algorithm). I could go on and on..

 

[vaibhavpisal]

why? On PC you can have 32GB of main memory or more, that is actually cheaper than a 1TB high speed SSD. You just don't need a fast SSD if you have enough main memory.

So 32gb ram will be minimum requirements for next gen pc versions?

I doubt it. Pc games sales would plummet cause more than half install base won't meet minimum requirements.

 

[pyrocro]

A GTX750 prodeced better results than PS4/XB1 at launch, and it was a low end card even back then.

I had a GTX 760 and ran all games just fine back then.

 

[drotahorror]

..the 2080Ti is vastly overrated as a 4K 60fps card to start with.

..it's best to think of it as the ultimate, 120fps+, 1440p card.

..we are still two generations away from GPU's that can max out games at 4K and never drop below 60fps.

Pretty much agree with this. We're just still not there for 4K to be the standard. Hell, people thought I was dumb for getting the GTX 1080 (the day it was released) and only having a 1080p monitor. A year or so later, I bought a 1440p 144hz monitor and was unhappy with the performance. I'm the kind of person that doesn't care about Ultra shadows or Ultra reflections etc, so those are usually things I turn down which can take a hit on performance, so it's not like I was trying to play games @ Ultra settings.

I returned that monitor and bought a 1080p 144hz monitor. Now I can actually utilize 144hz in a good bit of games. Sometimes I'll change refresh rate to 120hz if I can't quite hit the 144hz spot.

 

[pyrocro]

How could people look at PS4 exclusives running on 7870 and state this? Dear god.

And now we are getting 2080 - 2080 super level GPUs in consoles. How many PCs are faster than that? About 2-1% respectively.

Consoles will laugh at PCs for years to come even at raw GPU power, not even counting in insane "coded specifically for that hardware configuraton" boost.


And, fuck, a PC and console gamer here, fuck off with console/PC warrior junk, these are just numbers.

The problem is PS5 and XBSX are not out as yet and the PC console killer GPUs have a good chance of being out before the consoles which in turn drops the price on all current GPUs. Before consoles started using PC type GPUs, GPU would have much better performance improvements year over year, but now Nvidia and AMD(ATI) hold off until a year of a console launch, it's not a coincidence.
and on top of this Nvidia has no horse in this year's console race, I expect more leather jacket bragging about out doing the consoles later this year.

 

[MeatSafeMurderer]

So 32gb ram will be minimum requirements for next gen pc versions?

I doubt it. Pc games sales would plummet cause more than half install base won't meet minimum requirements.

You know that as technology progresses larger capacities get cheaper right? 32GB RAM is nothing new. I have 32GB...on Z97...that platform is 6 YEARS OLD...and it can still support 32GB. Z390 supports 128GB of RAM.

 

[llien]

pyrocro
Fair enough, but note that even if GPUs in the said level (which, last I've checked, was well into €800 area) will become much more affordable (say, half the price, at least in case of AMD I could imagine that) it's still freaking €400.

So 32gb ram will be minimum requirements for next gen pc versions?

Fast SSD will (and this isn't bait, chuckle)

 

[Orta]

Consoles will laugh at PCs for years to come even at raw GPU power,

That's never happened since the advent of pc GPU's, why would it happen now?

This time next year nobody will be even comparing these new consoles to decent PC's.

 

[llien]

That's never happened since the advent of pc GPU's, why would it happen now?

Because even years from now, vast majority of PC users will be using GPUs much slower than 2080.

I'd say it happened because Microsoft misfired last gen and wanted revenge and Sony knew they wanted revenge and also upped the game.

 

[MeatSafeMurderer]

Because even years from now, vast majority of PC users will be using GPUs much slower than 2080.

Yeah...not going to happen. NVIDIA's new GPU lineup will likely be out before the end of the year, possibly even before the next-gen consoles, likely along with AMD's...and with that many of us who chose to sit on Pascal and wait out 20xx will FINALLY have something worth upgrading to...and it's not like AMD and NVIDIA are going to just sit on their asses after that.

 

[llien]

NVIDIA's new GPU lineup will likely be out before the end of the year

Agreed. And so will AMDs.
Expected at around September.

Would you mind estimating the part of the lineup that will beat 2080 and how much you expect it to cost?

I.e.:

2080 + 13% => $130

 

[pyrocro]

So you're comparing that old texture compression with the consoles?? That's JUST for textures, and it's also just for textures residing i VRAM already.. that's kinda pointless comparison.

Your GPU could be the biggest monster there is, with 512bit memory interface or whatnot, but it wont matter when data it needs are "miles away" figurely speaking.
The new consoles are a complete eco system where the whole system performes "as one". PC hardware are more like "lonely islands" where each island are really powerfull on their own, but lacks any streamlined solution for feeding themselves with data at the same rate. Consoles has one pool of ram, wich functions as both system and vram, so data does'nt have to be copied twice for instance.

For a PC to achieve remotely the same experiences the consoles will bring (after the first wave of cross-gen games) thanks to their massive bandwidth in the whole pipeline chain, it would need a nand storage connected directly to the gpu card itself, or have massive amounts of vram and having the whole game resident in that ram.
A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link.

Ive read a few pages here and Im afraid many PC evangalists here will be in for a shock once they finally realize what's coming.

Edit: To all the LOLs: Feel free to join the discussion at anytime. Please enlighten me with your own views and knowledge!

DirectX 12 ultimate Directstorage.
The bottleneck your constantly describing is mostly software, and Microsoft is addressing it because Pc is a platform where they can make money.

The backbone of the Xbox Series X’s ultra-fast storage technology is coming to Windows

Microsoft confirms that DirectStorage, part of the Xbox Series X Velocity Architecture, will arrive on Windows 10 gaming PCs in the future.

www.pcworld.com

 

[martino]

Because even years from now, vast majority of PC users will be using GPUs much slower than 2080.

I'd say it happened because Microsoft misfired last gen and wanted revenge and Sony knew they wanted revenge and also upped the game.

How can you know behavior of pc gamers when the context is different ?

 

[MeatSafeMurderer]

Agreed. And so will AMDs.
Expected at around September.

Would you mind estimating the part of the lineup that will beat 2080 and how much you expect it to cost?

I.e.:

2080 + 13% => $130

RTX 3070, by a good margin I'd imagine (after the backlash NVIDIA received over the pitiful rasterization gains from Turing they're not going to skimp), with the RTX 3060 likely coming fairly close. $300-400, maybe $450. Again, after the backlash over Turing's pricing (which ultimately resulted in the release of the Super cards) I don't imagine they'll try to rock the boat, not to mention AMD finally looking like they might nip at their heels. Within a couple of years we'll see 40xx which will bring those levels of performance in at even lower prices still. The consoles will be outclassed in GPU power before they launch (actually...thanks to the 2080ti they already are) and that will move into the mainstream over the next year or two...just like it always does...when Sony and Microsoft don't release weak consoles to begin with like they did with the PS4 / Xbone.

 

[pyrocro]

pyrocro
Fair enough, but note that even if GPUs in the said level (which, last I've checked, was well into €800 area) will become much more affordable (say, half the price, at least in case of AMD I could imagine that) it's still freaking €400.


Fast SSD will (and this isn't bait, chuckle)

it's all about perceived value for the buyer
If you had neither a console or a PC, would you spend the extra $500-$400 on a video card or a console?
Because we both know most people have a PC and then a console and not the other way around in most cases. (is this correct where you're from?)

 

[Ogbert]

The 2080ti will be absolutely fine for another four to five years. Just drop shadows slightly, tweak a few things and then you'll hit 60fps 4k.

People are going to be so underwhelmed when the next gen games start dropping.

Sure, we'll get some lookers at 30fps, but the third party stuff will be nothing spectacular.

 

[S0ULZB0URNE]

pyrocro
Fair enough, but note that even if GPUs in the said level (which, last I've checked, was well into €800 area) will become much more affordable (say, half the price, at least in case of AMD I could imagine that) it's still freaking €400.


Fast SSD will (and this isn't bait, chuckle)

Expect less versions of console games until then.

 

[Keihart]

What it's ultra 4K?
You mean ultra HD? that is 4k
Do you mean 4K HDR? i don't think adding HDR have a meaningful impact on performance.
Do you mean true 4K?
do you mean 8K?
What it's ultra 4K???

This looks like the lyrics to a song if you don't read it.

Edit: ah, you mean "ultra settings"
Welp, that sounds like even more of a vague thing to ask, it's not like ultra settings have some kind of standard, they are whatever whenever.

 

[RaySoft]

DirectX 12 ultimate Directstorage.
The bottleneck your constantly describing is mostly software, and Microsoft is addressing it because Pc is a platform where they can make money.

The backbone of the Xbox Series X’s ultra-fast storage technology is coming to Windows

Microsoft confirms that DirectStorage, part of the Xbox Series X Velocity Architecture, will arrive on Windows 10 gaming PCs in the future.

www.pcworld.com

Yes, it's only natural that MS brings over DXU to the PC. But if you think introducing yet another API layer (i.e. DirectStorage) will "fix" bottlenecks, I'm afraid you'll be disappointed. A beefy PC probably would'nt struggle to run XSX games anyways.

 

[KingT731]

Here's some benchmarks for the R9 280X: https://www.techspot.com/article/1592-revisiting-radeon-r9-280x-radeon-hd-7970/

GPU 2014 Benchmarks - Compare Products on AnandTech

GPU 2014 benchmarks: Compare two products side-by-side or see a cascading list of product ratings along with our annotations.

www.anandtech.com

All the games in that first article run at 30fps on PS4 IIRC, except RE7 which runs at 60. However, it's not hard to get that GPU to run at 60fps and even over 100fps for RE7.

The Anandtech article is more of a comparison thing but I can pull out, for example Battlefield 4, which runs at 900p on PS4 at around 40fps and looks like shit, but it seems like your particular GPU could handle it at 1080p/60fps without too many problems.

A better GPU is just a better GPU. No secret sauce.

The issue with the PS4/XB1 wasn't the GFX card it was the extremely shitty Jaguar CPUs.

 

[llien]

70, by a good margin

Sorry: no fucks are given about naming conventions, as they are highly misleading.

Could you provide it in terms of % of 2080 performance and corresponding price please.
I.e. (again):

2080 + 13% => $130

How can you know behavior of pc gamers when the context is different ?

How can I know that market with 2080+ penetration of 1-2% won't change overnight, is this an actual question?
So, just for clarity, could you answer the question from this very post (above)?

 

[MeatSafeMurderer]

Sorry: no fucks are given about naming conventions, as they are highly misleading.

Could you provide it in terms of % of 2080 performance and corresponding price please.
I.e. (again):

2080 + 13% => $130

I don't know if you know this...I don't have actual silicon. I can't give you a hard percentage. I've given you my predictions, "a good margin", take them or leave them.

 

[llien]

I don't know if you know this...I don't have actual silicon. I can't give you a hard percentage. I've given you my predictions, "a good margin", take them or leave them.

Of course it's just a prediction.
I simply asked for an easy to understand form.
3070 means nothing without price.

 

[MeatSafeMurderer]

Of course it's just a prediction.
I simply asked for an easy to understand form.
3070 means nothing without price.

I also gave you a rough price bracket for both the 3060 and 3070. Try reading before replying next time?

 

[martino]

How can I know that market with 2080+ penetration of 1-2% won't change overnight, is this an actual question?
So, just for clarity, could you answer the question from this very post (above)?

i don't understand the relevance of above here. next years pc won't compare to console no matter the price.
Why come up with a price rule ? it don't change the reality of it for those people.

you're making it like 2080 will stay high end all next gen.
it will be low mid end half of it if not sooner
people who want to play those game on pc will upgrade
people don't upgrade until they need to....this time they will have to
amd / nvidia are happy they will sell lot of gpu
i expect NVIDIA especially to be less greedy too if console are competitive enough
in the end the consumer win from this situation.

 

[llien]

I also gave you a rough price bracket for both the 3060 and 3070. Try reading before replying next time?

Never mind.

i don't understand the relevance of above here. next years pc won't compare to console no matter the price.

Because 3050Ti will beat 2080, right? And cost under $200.

It is not about obnoxiously overpriced cards.
It's about cards most of the gamers use.

 

[MeatSafeMurderer]

And the price of 3070 you gave was?

Go back and read the post like you should have in the first place.

 

[martino]

And the price of 3070 you gave was?


Because 3050Ti will beat 2080, right? And cost under $200.

It is not about obnoxiously overpriced cards.
It's about cards most of the gamers use.

And does it change the reality for those with more powerful cards ?
if you need 300-400 card to match or best console people who want that will invest more.
we are circling and coming back to my first post....you can't debuce behavior in this context from the one where buying a 150 card is enough.

 

[Damigos]

Comparing a pc GPU with a console is like comparing apples to oranges.

PS4 pro only has 4 TFlops but it can deliver a God of War at around 60 fps without an SSD.
My PC has around 7,5 Tflops of GPU power and an SSD on it but it could obly dream of delivering such a game.

Same thing with iphones with”only” 2 threads of CPU and 3 GB of Ram, but they are first at benchmarks.

Optimization is key.

So, sorry to disappoint but the result is that the new consoles will be better than your 2080Ti, like my 2016 PS4 is better than my 2018 $ 1,5K PC, whatever is said on paper

 

[llien]

And does it change the reality for those with more powerful cards ?
if you need 300-400 card to match or best console people who want that will invest more.
we are circling and coming back to my first post....you can't debuce behavior in this context from the one where buying a 150 card is enough.

I am asking what would a GPU that beats 2080 cost and have yet to see a clear answer.

 

[martino]

Comparing a pc GPU with a console is like comparing apples to oranges.

PS4 pro only has 4 TFlops but it can deliver a God of War at around 60 fps without an SSD.
My PC has around 7,5 Tflops of GPU power and an SSD on it but it could obly dream of delivering such a game.

Same thing with iphones with”only” 2 threads of CPU and 3 GB of Ram, but they are first at benchmarks.

Optimization is key.

So, sorry to disappoint but the result is that the new consoles will be better than your 2080Ti, like my 2016 PS4 is better than my 2018 $ 1,5K PC, whatever is said on paper

Horizon coming to pc is good thing

 

[martino]

I am asking what would a GPU that beats 2080 cost and have yet to see a clear answer.

only amd/nvidia can give you a clear answer.
5700 replacement seems a safe bet so probably ~350 euros

 

[pyrocro]

Yes, it's only natural that MS brings over DXU to the PC. But if you think introducing yet another API layer (i.e. DirectStorage) will "fix" bottlenecks, I'm afraid you'll be disappointed. A beefy PC probably would'nt struggle to run XSX games anyways.

Why would it be an additional layer?
Why would MS waste their time introducing something that will be slower then what exists already?
What a weird thing to say.

 

[RaySoft]

I am asking what would a GPU that beats 2080 cost and have yet to see a clear answer.

Why would it be an additional layer?
Why would MS waste their time introducing something that will be slower then what exists already?
What a weird thing to say.

Im not saying it will be slower than what it is today, only that you wont suddenly remove bottlenecks with software alone.

 

[pyrocro]

Im not saying it will be slower than what it is today, only that you wont suddenly remove bottlenecks with software alone.

No you said another API layer, which would always mean lower potential/slower. So yes you did say it would be slower.
Are you confusing yourself?

and yes you can remove bottlenecks with software only, Directstorage, original DirectX12, Vulkan, chrome V8, it's what the industry does all the time.

The backbone of the Xbox Series X’s ultra-fast storage technology is coming to Windows

Microsoft confirms that DirectStorage, part of the Xbox Series X Velocity Architecture, will arrive on Windows 10 gaming PCs in the future.

www.pcworld.com

you do know all this console stuff exists on PC in some form or another right.

There are GPU's with SSDs on them and supporting windows drivers.

 

[PlayStaytion]

No .

 

[S0ULZB0URNE]

I decided to aim for 1440p and 60-120 FPS for next gen.
Pretty sure with a budget of $500 for the GPU and willingness to wait till when the new generation cards drop, it should be sufficient.
With enormous diminishing returns and a huge hit to performance it doesn't make sense to me to aim for 4K, even 1440p might be a stretch.
If you have money to burn then 4K 60 FPS could be a fun milestone.

A 2080ti will cover next gen 1440p ultra.
Waiting and a $500 budget look to a 3060 or 3070.

 

[ethomaz]

Depends.

4k games on PS5? Sure.
1080-1800p games on PS5? Not native 4k but with DSLL 4k sure.

 

[//DEVIL//]

A 2080ti will cover next gen 1440p ultra.
Waiting and a $500 budget look to a 3060 or 3070.

i honestly do not think 3070 will be as powerful as 2080ti

if history is anything to go by, 3080 will be on bar with 2080ti plus or minus few frames here and there. same as it was with previous 2 GPU generations.

 

[Pizdetz]

i honestly do not think 3070 will be as powerful as 2080ti

if history is anything to go by, 3080ti will be on bar with 2080ti plus or minus few frames here and there. same as it was with previous 2 GPU generations.

I guess it depends what you mean by a "few frames"' the difference is pretty substantial between a 1080 Ti and a 2080 Ti. Is that what you meant?
https://www.gpucheck.com/gpu-benchmark-graphics-card-comparison-chart << about 20% gain (eg. 12 frames at 4K, which is a good chunk)
http://hwbench.com/vgas/geforce-rtx-2080-ti-vs-geforce-gtx-1080-ti << up to 30% at 4K

Again, depends on the rig, but the 2080 Ti is about 20-30% more powerful than the 1080 Ti.
The 1080 Ti is somewhere between an RTX 2080 and an RTX 2080 super (http://hwbench.com/vgas/geforce-gtx-1080-ti-vs-geforce-rtx-2080-super)

Nvidia promises more powerful and cheaper cards, they are switching nodes, so it's likely the 3080 will be as powerful as the 2080 Ti. It's possible they will get the 3070 close, but I don't think so given the 2080 Ti price is $1K+ and a 3070 would have to launch at close to $500.

Then again, AMD is bringing RDNA2, and the next-gen consoles may also convince many gamers to skip building a PC (eg. the PS5 is on par with a $500-600 card today, and it's better value since PC requires other components). Nvidia has to make a pretty strong value proposition with their new cards especially if AMD catches up at the high end (and they seem to be undercutting them by 20% in cost for similar performance, eg. RX 5700 XT vs 2070 Super).

 

[//DEVIL//]

N

I guess it depends what you mean by a "few frames"' the difference is pretty substantial between a 1080 Ti and a 2080 Ti. Is that what you meant?
https://www.gpucheck.com/gpu-benchmark-graphics-card-comparison-chart << about 20% gain (eg. 12 frames at 4K, which is a good chunk)
http://hwbench.com/vgas/geforce-rtx-2080-ti-vs-geforce-gtx-1080-ti << up to 30% at 4K

Again, depends on the rig, but the 2080 Ti is about 20-30% more powerful than the 1080 Ti.
The 1080 Ti is somewhere between an RTX 2080 and an RTX 2080 super (http://hwbench.com/vgas/geforce-gtx-1080-ti-vs-geforce-rtx-2080-super)

Nvidia promises more powerful and cheaper cards, they are switching nodes, so it's likely the 3080 will be as powerful as the 2080 Ti. It's possible they will get the 3070 close, but I don't think so given the 2080 Ti price is $1K+ and a 3070 would have to launch at close to $500.

Then again, AMD is bringing RDNA2, and the next-gen consoles may also convince many gamers to skip building a PC (eg. the PS5 is on par with a $500-600 card today, and it's better value since PC requires other components). Nvidia has to make a pretty strong value proposition with their new cards especially if AMD catches up at the high end (and they seem to be undercutting them by 20% in cost for similar performance, eg. RX 5700 XT vs 2070 Super).

I made a Typo .
No in my post I was saying 2080ti more powerful than 3070. On par with 3080 and of course 3080ti way more powerful

 

[llien]

I guess it depends what you mean by a "few frames"' the difference is pretty substantial between a 1080 Ti and a 2080 Ti. Is that what you meant?

So is THE PRICE DIFFERENCE between the two cards. Oh, wait, the price difference is, in fact, much more "substantial":

1080Ti - $699
2080Ti - $1199 for "FE", and $999 that has never materialized even to date.

And that is why people should stop using misleading labels and talk about performance and price instead.

only amd/nvidia can give you a clear answer.

No, people who claim with certainty that PC market will be flooded with GPUs faster than 2080 should certainly have some estimates to support it.

I'm not even asking for those estimates to be correct, just voicing them is where "fasta PC" folks already seem to stumble.

 

[Damigos]

Horizon coming to pc is good thing

I guess?

 

[martino]

No, people who claim with certainty that PC market will be flooded with GPUs faster than 2080 should certainly have some estimates to support it.

I'm not even asking for those estimates to be correct, just voicing them is where "fasta PC" folks already seem to stumble.

i never claimed that.
i just underline that your arbitrary and mandatory conditions for a reality to be considered strange to not say something else.
Even more strange your eyes also fail to read those estimates when they are present....are you escaping reality in your custom context bubble one more time ?

 

[nkarafo]

4K @ 60fps won't be a standard until 8K resolutions become mainstream.

 

[phil_t98]

we dont even know if PS5 and XS will run games in ultra at 4k

 

[llien]

we dont even know if PS5 and XS will run games in ultra at 4k

What does "in ultra" even mean?
It's a deliberate combination of settings set by developers at will.

It's pretty meaningless.

i never claimed that.

Then maybe you should check the conversation that you are part of. It's about:

PS5 and XSeX will laugh at PCs for years to come.
No no no, something very cheap but faster than 2080 comes this setpember and majority of PCs will somehow become faster than consoles again.

 

[martino]

PS5 and XSeX will laugh at PCs for years to come.
No no no, something very cheap but faster than 2080 comes this setpember and majority of PCs will somehow become faster than consoles again.

can you show me where the bold is clearly said, Joan ?
voices in your head don't count.
it's started with you claiming console will laugh to all desktop gpu even at raw power for years....( when 2080 ti already contradict that)
people reply to you on that and you have clearly moved the goalpost here .
A typical moving the goalpost when trapped on that subject : "but but but price. but but but it's a minority we should ignore them. console are the best if we ignore all of that..."
People with an objective to play next gen games will build/upgrade their pc with what is needed to reach it when it feels needed.
And since on pc you can build with multiple objectives in mind they are no clear answer on what it means.
But, with no doubt the minimum requirements (and price) will jump this time around console launch.
(this seems to be also what will happen for those consoles launch price setting the bar higher)

 

[Rikkori]

What people forget is DDR5 is just around the corner, and that brings with it not just more bandwidth, but also lower latency and the capacity will go UP, so having 32 GB of ram will be absolutely standard. Check out those densities.

 

[phil_t98]

What does "in ultra" even mean?
It's a deliberate combination of settings set by developers at will.

It's pretty meaningless.


Then maybe you should check the conversation that you are part of. It's about:

PS5 and XSeX will laugh at PCs for years to come.
No no no, something very cheap but faster than 2080 comes this setpember and majority of PCs will somehow become faster than consoles again.

What does ultra mean?
Well it’s the highest graphics settings that is available for that game. If you don’t know you shouldn’t even be commenting