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[Fimbulvetr]

It was pointless as hell to be there just because they had you do everything as dante a second time already. Who wants to fight the same fucking bosses 3 times.

I didn't mind fighting Credo again, but good lord are Berial and the others a drag. Especially since you're so powered up now, while they remain completely the same.

DMC4 doesn't have a fixed camera and the dice puzzle was awesome once you learned how to rig it.

The Gyro portion is admittedly terribad..

I'd say the dice game, post learning how it works, was less "awesome" and more boring. It's just free orbs, really.

 

[AcceptableGhost]

Worst parts of DMC4:

(The best cutscene in the game is the one where Dante enters the Dice room and goes lolno)

I'm hoping NT will improve the non combat portions of this series overall. No more fixed cameras please. And hopefully the characters movement speed will be less slow. Seriously, first upgrade I got was speed.

Do tell me how NT is improving the none combat parts of DmC? Adding 200% more (near automated) platforming with pretty backgrounds? The best way to improve the none combat parts of action games is to remove / minimalize them completely (any part that isn't the combat when replaying an action game is usually pretty boring... there is only one way to solve a puzzle... but many ways to solve combat).

 

[QisTopTier]

Do tell me how NT is improving the none combat parts of DmC? Adding 200% more (near automated) platforming with pretty backgrounds? The best way to improve the none combat parts of action games is to remove / minimalize them completely (any part that isn't the combat when replaying an action game is usually pretty boring... there is only one way to solve a puzzle... but many ways to solve combat).

Sooo just make the entire game bloody palace mode?

 

[Dahbomb]

He is not saying NT IS improving the non combat aspects of the game but that he hopes they will. A perfectly fine wish to make.

 

[BeautifulMemory]

DMC4 was fun when you royal guarding the enemies, especially savior and blitz

 

[Hypron]

It was pointless as hell to be there just because they had you do everything as dante a second time already. Who wants to fight the same fucking bosses 3 times.

I do. I really liked the boss fights in DMC4, they were easily my favourite part of the game.

 

[Dahbomb]

Sooo just make the entire game bloody palace mode?

Sure if each area looks different than the rest and after a few stages you get awesome cutscenes.

 

[GuardianE]

Do tell me how NT is improving the none combat parts of DmC?

By making it a WB teenage drama! Yay!

 

[Slamtastic]

Do tell me how NT is improving the none combat parts of DmC? Adding 200% more (near automated) platforming with pretty backgrounds? The best way to improve the none combat parts of action games is to remove / minimalize them completely (any part that isn't the combat when replaying an action game is usually pretty boring... there is only one way to solve a puzzle... but many ways to solve combat).

You replay combat with Bloody Palace, and hopefully Boss Rush or hopefully letting you select specific moments including bosses instead of entire chapters.

And being very linear already sounds like an improvement (along with a minimization) over backtracking get the key, go back to the door stuff in open (but empty) environments.

 

[BeautifulMemory]

I feel like the best enemies AI and placements were hidden at the upper levels of Bloody Palace. DMD doesn't even come close

 

[ezekial45]

Do tell me how NT is improving the none combat parts of DmC? Adding 200% more (near automated) platforming with pretty backgrounds? The best way to improve the none combat parts of action games is to remove / minimalize them completely (any part that isn't the combat when replaying an action game is usually pretty boring... there is only one way to solve a puzzle... but many ways to solve combat).

This is why the series was stuck. Ironically, the combat, even though it's stellar, was stunting the growth of the overall gameplay. When you have one aspect of the game that's really amazing but everything revolving around it is simple and shallow, it gets really obvious and grating the more you play it. The combat was placed on such a pedestal, it just didn't allow for growth of anything related to the advancement of platforming and anything non-combat, which would've affected the combat gameplay in some form or another.

So if that's how you feel, than you'd probably be fine with DMC5 being only a BP mode. Right?

 

[Dahbomb]

But DmC isn't really advancing the non combat portions in any substantial way either.

DMC is held back by its linear design not the combat.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

I was hoping that they were gonna take the whole Demon Hunter thing seriously, like have you go and choose missions to do around the world, side-quests, have like a main hub town, all that shit. You got the franchise, now you can make some big changes

But nah, it's same linear 3d beat'em'up game, with easier, slower combat and worse Dante.

Wheeee

 

[ezekial45]

But DmC isn't really advancing the non combat portions in any substantial way either.

I disagree there. It make room for deviation and side paths, and it also adds more twitch based gameplay to the platforming (church sequence, as one example). It's not Mario level platforming, but at the it's adding something to the overall package and it's not shallow. They seemed to have made it a bit leaner, but much more interesting. That's more than any of the previous games could ever do.

 

[GuardianE]

This is why the series was stuck. Ironically, the combat, even though it's stellar, was stunting the growth of the overall gameplay. When you have one aspect of the game that's really amazing but everything revolving around it is simple and shallow, it gets really obvious and grating the more you play it. The combat was placed on such a pedestal, it just didn't allow for growth of anything related to the advancement of platforming and anything non-combat, which would've affected the combat gameplay in some form or another.

I think it's incredibly short sighted to say that the combat in DMC4 was in any way stunting the growth of the other elements of the series. DMC4's lack of direction wasn't because the combat somehow steamrolled over the evolution of the series as a whole... not even the compromises necessary for a fluid 60fps did that.

I don't need branching paths in a DMC game. I really couldn't care less about that or the way the platforming is handled in DmC. None of that is adding any real depth. It's just visual flair.

 

[BeautifulMemory]

I was hoping that they were gonna take the whole Demon Hunter thing seriously, like have you go and choose missions to do around the world, side-quests, have like a main hub town, all that shit. You got the franchise, now you can make some big changes

But nah, it's same linear 3d beat'em'up game, with easier, slower combat and worse Dante.

Wheeee

Or hell/demon-infested world. Dante fitted perfectly in SMT Nocturne

 

[QisTopTier]

I was hoping that they were gonna take the whole Demon Hunter thing seriously, like have you go and choose missions to do around the world, side-quests, have like a main hub town, all that shit. You got the franchise, now you can make some big changes

But nah, it's same linear 3d beat'em'up game, with easier, slower combat and worse Dante.

Wheeee

Isn't Capcom Japan still pretty much telling them what to do overall?

 

[Slamtastic]

An open world DMC would be neat, but I imagine it wold be tough to get 60fps on it.

 

[Retro_]

I disagree there. It make room for deviation and side paths, and it also adds more twitch based gameplay to the platforming (church sequence, as one example). It's not Mario level platforming, but at the it's adding something to the overall package and it's not shallow. They seemed to have made it a bit leaner, but much more interesting. That's more than any of the previous games could ever do.

What do you mean?

The old games had side paths as well at points. Where you'd find alot of the secret missions

An open world DMC would be neat, but I imagine it wold be tough to get 60fps on it.

Not even open world. Just open ended.

Instead of linear trek through castle where you find a bunch of new weapons along the way

 

[Fimbulvetr]

This is why the series was stuck. Ironically, the combat, even though it's stellar, was stunting the growth of the overall gameplay. When you have one aspect of the game that's really amazing but everything revolving around it is simple and shallow, it gets really obvious and grating the more you play it. The combat was placed on such a pedestal, it just didn't allow for growth of anything related to the advancement of platforming and anything non-combat, which would've affected the combat gameplay in some form or another.

So if that's how you feel, than you'd probably be fine with DMC5 being only a BP mode. Right?

Not neccesarily. Short, yet simple, non-combat sections are good for giving the player a breather between battles. It becomes a problem with these parts overstay their welcome, are clunky, or feel like absolutely nothing. Otherwise they aren't inherently bad.

 

[GuardianE]

Isn't Capcom Japan still pretty much telling them what to do overall?

Absolutely not.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

I disagree there. It make room for deviation and side paths

All we've seen so far is going slightly off the beaten track for more orbs. Something the past games have done as well

it also adds more twitch based gameplay to the platforming (church sequence, as one example). It's not Mario level platforming, but at the it's adding something to the overall package and it's not shallow.

It's...pretty shallow. It's a somewhat more involving version of the Nero Devil Bringer. So instead of simply running to the next combat area we're also gliding and chain-pulling.

I'm not seeing any big innovations here in terms of level/game design.

 

[Dahbomb]

The church sequence is automated garbage just like the rest of the game's platforming (from all the footage shown). Its the very opposite of "twitch" based and is extremely shallow. I have nothing good to say about the non combat stuff in the game.

Thankfully like the guy above said that the game is more focused and there is very little key carrying or roaming around opening doors.

Open DMC game is the way to go for the next DMC game if you really want to expand the series.

 

[ezekial45]

I think it's incredibly short sighted to say that the combat in DMC4 was in any way stunting the growth of the other elements of the series. DMC4's lack of direction wasn't because the combat somehow steamrolled over the evolution of the series as a whole... not even the compromises necessary for a fluid 60fps did that.

I don't need branching paths in a DMC game. I really couldn't care less about that or the way the platforming is handled in DmC. None of that is adding any real depth. It's just visual flair.

It's not shortsighted at all, that's the truth. The gameplay was about the combat, period. The controls were combat mode, and then they tried adding these halfassed platforming segments that fit in the mold of that. It just didn't work.

Just tell me this, GuardianE. Would you have been happier with this game if it was just a reskinned DMC4?

An open world DMC would be neat, but I imagine it wold be tough to get 60fps on it.

I would absolutely love an open world DMC game. Though I think DmC would be a better fit for it. This game has a strong emphasis on setting and location, so it'd be great to have a more open take on the series.

Because this is a new beginning of sorts, they have to keep it simple and traditional to set it up. My dream for DMC would be adding in elements from Arkham City, featuring that level of exploration and content, but in a DMC game. That'd be pretty boss. For me, anyway.

EDIT:Great, now we're fighting again.

 

[TreIII]

I was hoping that they were gonna take the whole Demon Hunter thing seriously, like have you go and choose missions to do around the world, side-quests, have like a main hub town, all that shit. You got the franchise, now you can make some big changes

But nah, it's same linear 3d beat'em'up game, with easier, slower combat and worse Dante.

Wheeee

Yeah, this.

At one point in time, I was really hoping that DMC would truly awaken to its manifest destiny of being "Castlevania's successor", and actually would give Dante and friends reason to travel all over the world (or at least, certain regions of it), in order to make for a bit more in the way of an open-world experience. Oh, and still have awesome combat and interesting weapons to find.

...But yeah, nope!

 

[Fimbulvetr]

What do you mean?

The old games had side paths as well at points. Where you'd find alot of the secret missions

He's probably refering to the occasional section where your run into a fork in the road and either path will take you to the next part. They don't look like that big a deal though, from what's been shown.

Sometimes goodies are hidden on one of the two paths, but it seems pretty trial and error whether or not you pick the "correct" one. Plus, they reconverge pretty soon after they split.

 

[Retro_]

He's probably refering to the occasional section where your run into a fork in the road and either path will take you to the next part. They don't look like that big a deal though, from what's been shown.

Sometimes goodies are hidden on one of the two paths, but it seems pretty trial an error whether or not you pick the "correct" one. Plus, they reconverge pretty soon after they split.

Oh....

Seems like less than the old games did....not more....

I remember seeing that in that really bad looking night club stage. I figured that was just because of the poor design of that area though.

Guess people complaining about backtracking will appreciate this at least,(As long as they pick the path with the secret every time and don't have to double back. lol)

 

[Dahbomb]

Depends on what you mean by a reskinned DMC4.

Same engine, similar combat but Nero's arsenal vastly expanded, both characters have their own unique campaigns, a better story with Vergil at the center of it and less bad puzzles..... I would be all up in that ass.

 

[GuardianE]

It's not shortsighted at all, that's the truth. The gameplay was about the combat, period. The controls were combat mode, and then they tried adding these halfassed platforming segments that fit in the mold of that. It just didn't work.

Just tell me this, GuardianE. Would you have been happier with this game if it was just a reskinned DMC4?

You're implying it's an either or. That there's some ultimate rule that we would either have DmC or a section for section copy of DMC4. A fairer question would be, would I rather the DMC4 team try again, with the risk of it being a rehash of DMC4. And the answer is absolutely yes. But if this sells well, they'll likely never get the chance.

Nobody's asking for a re-skin here, despite your unfair assumptions that everyone who dislikes DmC just wanted DMC4 again. Also, I like how your concept of expanding the game is restricted to platforming. Again, short sighted.

 

[lowhighkang_LHK]

I think it's incredibly short sighted to say that the combat in DMC4 was in any way stunting the growth of the other elements of the series. DMC4's lack of direction wasn't because the combat somehow steamrolled over the evolution of the series as a whole... not even the compromises necessary for a fluid 60fps did that.

I don't need branching paths in a DMC game. I really couldn't care less about that or the way the platforming is handled in DmC. None of that is adding any real depth. It's just visual flair.

Visual flair is part of the element of a video game though. If it wasn't, we'd just be playing RPG's for example on MS-DOS with text and number generators for damage values. Also, if you really want to go into an argument on what's window dressing or actual "depth" in a video game, you can cut out 90% of what any game is about. The overall enjoyment of a game is all these elements in concert. What Ezekial is trying to get at is that the Devil May Cry franchise has turned into a glorified combat simulator in boxed rooms with cutscenes every 15 minutes. I'd rather have a separate XBL download Devil May Cry: The Bloody Palace adventures from Capcom than an actual DMC5. We know it won't surpass DMC3 or DMC1, so why even bother.

Also, DMC4's lack of direction isn't because the combat steamrolled over other elements of it's game design, it's Capcom's utter inaptitude as a developer that held back DMC4. Capcom is internally robbed from all their super-star developers. The fact that they royally fucked up RE6, their bread and butter franchise where they can and have put every dollar and resource yet still failed to meet expecattions is a further testament to this.

 

[Dahbomb]

When all is said and done... no one wants a retread of any DMC game. I want a DMC game that combines the best elements of all previous DMC games (yes even DMC2 and probably even DmC).

I want DMC1's atmosphere and impeccable enemy designs.

I want DMC3's customization element and weapon swap mechanic back.

I want Nero's combat back but with the same amount of tools that Dante has.

I want DMC4's Bloody Palace mode.

I want DMC2s DT and Dante design or something similar to it.

I want to see stuff like Inverse Rainstorm, an Osiris-like weapon, combo swapping mechanic in a future DMC game. Hell I wouldn't mind morphing environments if it doesn't come at the cost of 60FPS.


I refuse to believe that DMC can't be made good using the old formula. Just by combining various aspects of the DMC games and doing them justice would be enough to make a monumental action game. And still it doesn't take into consideration any further advancement in the combat which the series is still more than capable of doing.

We know it won't surpass DMC3 or DMC1, so why even bother.

Not this close minded shit again.

 

[lowhighkang_LHK]

Not this close minded shit again.

Capcom hasn't really given any indication since DMC3 / RE4 (and we're talking what, 2004, 2005?) that they have the capability to create a character driven, single player, gameplay driven campaign experience. They've created good games since then, but in completely different genres (SF4 MvC3) or handheld games (i.e, PW, Ghost Trick, Monster Hunter) We've now come to the point where Capcom advertises certain big budget, AAA games and they pull out all the stops and give us everything they got...we get Dragon's Dogma...sure, an above average game, enjoyable in some instances. And RE6...yeah. There was a time when Capcom did that, and we'd get games like DMC1, RE2, RE4, DMC3, Onimusha [1], Viewtiful Joe, Okami...


Until they prove otherwise, I'll stick to this belief - a belief that Capcom has supplanted for the past 7 to 8 years after constant disappointment, after disappointment, after disappointment. For all we know, nobody internally at Capcom had any ideas on how to approach a DMC sequel, maybe there is nobody that even -wanted- to work on a sequel. Itsuno's been doing DMC for 9 years now, he obviously wanted to do something else (i.,e Dragons Dogma). It doesn't surprise that Capcom looked externally.

 

[ezekial45]

All we've seen so far is going slightly off the beaten track for more orbs. Something the past games have done as well

It's...pretty shallow. It's a somewhat more involving version of the Nero Devil Bringer. So instead of simply running to the next combat area we're also gliding and chain-pulling.

I'm not seeing any big innovations here in terms of level/game design.

I'm not saying they're big innovations that are game changing. Game changing would be an open world DMC game.

What I am saying is that adding these elements create some proper breathing room and will help break up the action. In the right way. They may not super intricate and involving like a Mario or Ratchet & Clank game (who knows, they may be once we see the later levels), but do create these situations to properly take in environmental and narrative sections of the game. Which is one of the things the game wants to do, add more context and stronger sense of narrative.

 

[SapientWolf]

Sooo just make the entire game bloody palace mode?

That was the best part of DMC4 by a pretty large margin.

 

[Tess3ract]

PC version should be out FIRST

 

[Dahbomb]

Capcom hasn't really given any indication since DMC3 / RE4 (and we're talking what, 2004, 2005?) that they have the capability to create a character driven, single player, gameplay driven campaign experience. They've created good games since then, but in completely different genres (SF4 MvC3) or handheld games (i.e, PW, Ghost Trick, Monster Hunter)

Until they prove otherwise, I'll stick to this belief - a belief that Capcom has supplanted for the past 7 to 8 years after constant disappointment, after disappointment, after disappointment.

They made Dead Rising, DMC4 and Dragon's Dogma... all 3 solid games. DMC4 was just shy of the greatness of DMC3/DMC1, a slightly better direction and a different producer would've made an excellent DMC game.

The team that made DMC3/DMC4 is still mostly there. The talent is there but it's spread fairly thin now (like one of the combat designer for DMC4 Neo_G went on to work on MVC3). I honestly believe that if they give a DMC game even half the treatment that they give a RE game (fuck ton of budget/man power) they can create a stellar game... as long as they keep it focused and don't rush it.

Sadly we will never see a game like that especially not in this generation. If Capcom tries to make a next gen DMC and launch it too soon I fear it will run into the same problems as DMC4 (ie product that gave the impression of corners being cut to make deadline). Capcom made a gamble using the DMC team to work on DD instead of making a new DMC game and outsourced DMC instead.

Good thing is that Capcom is at least scaling back on their outsourcing and hiring more devs for next gen so maybe they have learned their mistakes. Although I guess that might be giving them too much credit.

 

["God's Beard!"]

There’s a drip-feed of new demons in the early missions to test out your increasingly diverse arsenal against, each of which exercises your skills differently; some are immune to certain weapons, others have shields that need to be snatched away with the grapple before they can be sliced into bits.

Better normal enemies than DMC3 confirmed.

 

[Dahbomb]

Better normal enemies than DMC3 confirmed.

You are confusing gimmicks for actual AI.

 

[BIONIC-ARRRMMM!!]

I disagree there. It make room for deviation and side paths, and it also adds more twitch based gameplay to the platforming (church sequence, as one example). It's not Mario level platforming, but at the it's adding something to the overall package and it's not shallow. They seemed to have made it a bit leaner, but much more interesting. That's more than any of the previous games could ever do.

If only I could spin BS as well as you do, life would be grand.

 

[lowhighkang_LHK]

You are confusing gimmicks for actual AI.

In which fodder enemies in DMC3 had neither. At least DmC's got some elements.

Mind you, I'd say the fodder enemies in the DMC games aren't mean to have A.I to begin with since their combo punching bags.

 

[GuardianE]

You are confusing gimmicks for actual AI.

The enemy reactions/A.I. were actually relatively complex in DMCs in the past.

They all had their weaknesses and susceptibilities, but there were other intricacies to the enemy behavior- things that would either embolden them or cause them to shy away in fear. Different cues would cause them to work in tandem with each other, too.

 

[SapientWolf]

In which fodder enemies in DMC3 had neither. At least DmC's got some elements.

Mind you, I'd say the fodder enemies in the DMC games aren't mean to have A.I to begin with since their combo punching bags.

Punching bags? Sounds like someone hasn't played on DMD.

 

[Dahbomb]

In which fodder enemies in DMC3 had neither. At least DmC's got some elements.

Elements of good AI in DmC?

Please link me to this footage because I have seen none of it.

Also there were a crap ton of DMC3 enemies which had gimmicks you can use to beat them. They weren't as in your face obvious as color coating an enemy but stuff like the Soul Eater were so obviously designed to be one shotted by a Spiral Trick shot. DMC4 had better enemy designs, there were gimmicks on enemies but since all enemies were freely comboable unlike DMC3 it made exploring the combat that much more rewarding. A good portion of DMC3's enemies weren't freely comboable either. Hell I will fully admit that the DMC3's enemies are the weakest in the series (DMC2 excluded) but nothing I have seen in DmC makes me feel that it's even better than DMC3.

 

[lowhighkang_LHK]

They made Dead Rising, DMC4 and Dragon's Dogma... all 3 solid games. DMC4 was just shy of the greatness of DMC3/DMC1, a slightly better direction and a different producer would've made an excellent DMC game.

The team that made DMC3/DMC4 is still mostly there. The talent is there but it's spread fairly thin now (like one of the combat designer for DMC4 Neo_G went on to work on MVC3). I honestly believe that if they give a DMC game even half the treatment that they give a RE game (fuck ton of budget/man power) they can create a stellar game... as long as they keep it focused and don't rush it.

Sadly we will never see a game like that especially not in this generation. If Capcom tries to make a next gen DMC and launch it too soon I fear it will run into the same problems as DMC4 (ie product that gave the impression of corners being cut to make deadline). Capcom made a gamble using the DMC team to work on DD instead of making a new DMC game and outsourced DMC instead.

Good thing is that Capcom is at least scaling back on their outsourcing and hiring more devs for next gen so maybe they have learned their mistakes. Although I guess that might be giving them too much credit.

DMC4 was good. Dead Rising...was okay. Dragon's Dogma, while solid could have been much better, especially with how much they put into it. A valiant effort for a Japanese developer to make a largely wRPG based game, sure.

The fact of the matter is Capcom released two genre defining games back to back in 04' and 05' with DMC3 and RE4. They have yet to do so since. First order of business is for Capcom to buy Platinum. Get their talent back.

 

[lowhighkang_LHK]

Elements of good AI in DmC?

Please link me to this footage because I have seen none of it.

Situational requirements.

 

[Fimbulvetr]

Better normal enemies than DMC3 confirmed.

We've seen both of those types of enemies before. The former can only be hurt with weapons of the same affinity(Angel = Blue, Demon = Red), the latter need you to use demon pull to get rid of the shield or the arbiter to do damage through the shield(possibly the Eryx's charge attacks as well?).

 

[lowhighkang_LHK]

Punching bags? Sounds like someone hasn't played on DMD.

Yeah, I've never played any DMC game past normal. You got me there...

 

[jett]

There are parts with a fixed camera. I want there to be zero. In any 3D movement video game ever made ever.

...but God of War has by far the best camera system in the genre and it's 100% non-controllable.

 

[Dahbomb]

This thread is killing my hype....

 

[ezekial45]

This thread is killing my hype....

http://i.minus.com/ixz1VB7D4WpPA.gif[[/QUOTE]

See you tomorrow.