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Do you believe in the use of torture?

DragoonKain

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I’m for it, but only circumstances where intel could save lives or prevent significant tragedy. Especially with terrorism prevention and war time.

But as someone who studies true crime, I do flip flop on it with other uses too. For example say a serial killer is caught and it’s a no doubter that he’s the guy. And there are other potential victims out there, maybe even someone held captive somewhere. I think in that case the ends may justify the means to extract that information and give families closure and/save a life.

And I agree that it can be extreme and inhumane, but I think some people either forfeit the right to be treated as humans and some scenarios are so potentially drastic, that if you can save many lives it’s worth it.

But I know many are against it for any reason.
 
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lyan

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May 21, 2017
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the actual usage by itself I don't have an issue with in adequate scenarios like you have mentioned. However I have a problem with letting the system to delegate such power to someone as there would eventually be cases where such means is mishandled by so person/group.

I guess you can say I think its ok only if I am the one torturing/making the decision :messenger_tears_of_joy:
 

DragoonKain

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In 99.99999% of the real world cases it is unnecesary. I think it only works for Hollywood movies when there's 1 minute left to save a bus full of children from a ticking bomb.
I think it is unnecessary in most real life situations too, but I wouldn’t put the number that high. Think of international affairs and how our intelligence agencies we are constantly in pursuit of terror cells 24/7 and how if we capture someone internationally or domestically that may have valuable intel to locate terror leaders or targets that may not directly save lives right now, but taking them out could prevent future bloodshed.

I think situations like that are always going to be present.
 

DragoonKain

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In your mind it sounds fine. You know it's the bad guy and you are out toughing him in the name of justice.

Giving that power to the state is a whole different thing. It's just asking for the worst abuses beyond your imagination.
I do agree that it you completely take the reins off and give governments carte Blanche they can use it for whatever they want even when unnecessary.
 
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Woo-Fu

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Ignoring the morality of it, think about it from a practical standpoint. You're attempting to hurt somebody enough that they'll tell you what you want to know. They'll be making stuff up simply to stop the pain.

You're not going to get anything reliable without verification and that same verification process could have gotten you the same info---without torture.

Which makes it seem from a practical standpoint to be a pointless waste of effort, at least in terms of intel gathering. If, on the other hand, your goal is to feel righteous for punishing somebody for a crime they've never been convicted of it works great. You just have to have the stomach for it.
 
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crowbrow

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I think it is unnecessary in most real life situations too, but I wouldn’t put the number that high. Think of international affairs and how our intelligence agencies we are constantly in pursuit of terror cells 24/7 and how if we capture someone internationally or domestically that may have valuable intel to locate terror leaders or targets that may not directly save lives right now, but taking them out could prevent future bloodshed.

I think situations like that are always going to be present.
Is there credible data somewhere about the effectiveness of torture. If you're willing to make a moral support of torture then basically you don't have a moral standing against your enemies using it against you.
 

ClanOfNone

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It's a waste of time. If the person you are torturing doesn't have the intel needed he will say wathever you want to hear to stop the suffering.

I agree with this. How can you trust any intel gleaned this way when 99% of the people will fold and tell you anything after 30 seconds of waterboarding, and the other 1% will just give misdirection or take the info to the grave.
 
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HeresJohnny

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I go back and forth. The first time I ever contemplated what torture was was when I saw the first Dirty Harry movie. In it, the killer had taken a girl and placed her in a vault underground, where she would suffocate if the police didn’t meet his demands. They brought him the money and he reneged on the deal and was going to let her die anyway, but the cop they sent to deliver the money (Dirty Harry) stabbed him with a knife. They frantically search the hospitals for knife wound victims before they find out who he is. They go there and instead of fucking around, Eastwood just shoots him in the leg as he runs away and then goes and steps on the wound to find out where the girl is. The guy cops to it, but she is dead by the time they get to her, and the killer gets off because of police brutality.

I also know they gleaned information that led to the killing of Osama bin Laden using some pretty awful shit (just watch Zero Dark Thirty). But it saved lives. Still, our government runs everything else so poorly that I wouldn’t want them to be able to use that power freely either. It’s a real dilemma.
 

nkarafo

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Nov 30, 2012
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Not for punishment. Though, i understand someone wanting to hurt someone else because they want revenge.

I do feel like that sometimes when i see assholes torturing animals.

That's why we let the state handle justice instead of emotional individuals. Otherwise we won't be better than those lynch mobs in third world countries.

For extracting vital information that will save the world or something, i guess it's necessary?
 
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King of Foxes

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I'm for straight up murder as long as it keeps my family and country safe, to a less extent christian culture.

If America wants to do whatever to whoever, as long as its not Latvia i do not care. I and my family lived in the soviet union as an occupied country, the Russians are far worse and i cant even imagine what China would be like, most likely you wouldnt know just disappear
 
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Ornlu

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I think in most cases it can be counter-productive. I imagine you would get much more valuable intel via your enemies knowing that they can get good treatment via defection, and won't have themselves or their families tortured and killed by your side.
 
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Whitesnake

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You could probably give me some very specific scenarios in which I would agree it’s justified, but in general it does’t seem to be effective enough to warrant the needless suffering that is caused.
 

GnomeChimpsky

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I've always said it should be prohibited but if you're in the unlikely situation where there's 10 minutes until the bomb goes off and you've got the guy in front of you you should do what needs to be done and proudly take the punishment for it. Court will probably be lenient anyway.
 
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Grinchy

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It kinda depends. If it's someone who is involved in bombing groups of innocent people, then that is no longer a person in my eyes and I don't care what you do to them. Even if you don't get good info, torturing them before letting them die is still better than they deserved.
 

Dargor

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I don't, not because of pity, human rights or anything, but because people will say anything you want them to say, even if it isn't true. It doesnt matter the reason you're doing it, the moment its someone that doesnt know anything, you'll get false intel, waste time and resources pursuing it and who knows how that will end.
 
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Tesseract

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i dunno where you guys are getting this people will say anything business from

like yeah they might, that's why you keep going

there's ways to fracture and torment the mind enough to flush out garbage intel
 

haxan7

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Whatever gets the job done.

If you get valuable intel from some scumbag, it can save lives on both sides.
 
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Ornlu

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i dunno where you guys are getting this people will say anything business from

like yeah they might, that's why you keep going

there's ways to fracture and torment the mind enough to flush out garbage intel
At that point you're just breaking their brain and molding them into believing whatever narrative you're spinning; any intel is going to be warped and probably wrong.

Whatever gets the job done.

If you get valuable intel from some scumbag, it can save lives on both sides.
That's the problem; it doesn't seem to be accurate.


I'd be curious whether or not intel extracted under drugs (think truth serum from movies) is usually correct.
 

Tesseract

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At that point you're just breaking their brain and molding them into believing whatever narrative you're spinning; any intel is going to be warped and probably wrong.



That's the problem; it doesn't seem to be accurate.


I'd be curious whether or not intel extracted under drugs (think truth serum from movies) is usually correct.
it's a controlled break, you fracture them until they output whatever techs need squeezed

you cross reference everything against whatever profile is made up and see what tracks / abandon what doesn't

it's a war of attrition that the torturee does not win
 
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Cybrwzrd

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To be honest I only see a benefit in doing it to the worst of criminals, and purely out of vengeance. Which makes it ethically and morally wrong. It’s also why I hate the death penalty but also support it.
 

#Phonepunk#

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no i think there are far more useful methods of gathering intelligence, torture should not be endorsed. of course it is impossible to ignore that my government (and most of the world's) has used it for a long time now, it is just one of, and probably not the worst, tool in the rusty blood soaked Neo Imperialist toolshed. it's just part of how sick the human species can be towards one another. though i will way all this stuff has probably been with us as long as there is a state power that can be abused towards this end. there is war, i don't approve of that either. if someone gave me the controls society would be completely different. all that money would go to helping people. holy shit. imagine that.
 
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sahlberg

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Oct 27, 2017
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A strong and confident society should allow torture as a form of punishment for severe and degenerate crimes.
That we don't allow this today is just illustration how weak the west has become.

Torture should also not be overlooked as a strong and valid negotiation technique in difficult discussions.
 
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Weiji

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I’m against it.

My expectation is that if the situation warrants it the person who does it should expect to be fired, and will do it anyway, and be fired.

If the situation isn’t worth being fired over, it’s not worth torturing over.
 

Ornlu

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To be honest I only see a benefit in doing it to the worst of criminals, and purely out of vengeance. Which makes it ethically and morally wrong. It’s also why I hate the death penalty but also support it.
Death penalty is the opposite, though; you have people you need to never re-enter society, so why not just be honest and execute them instead of locking them up indefinitely? Locking them up in that scenario would be ethically and morally wrong.
 

Super Mario

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Without muddying the waters, it's been proven many times that when the consequences are more severe and enforced, some will think twice about their actions.

Unfortunately, some think the world is fixed with a hug
 

NahaNago

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I can't say I'm completely against it. I'm aware that folks will say anything when being tortured but they would say anything either way and all info you acquire from him before torture would have to be verified anyways, so torturing or not won't really change what you have to do afterwards.
 

SpartanN92

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I have zero problem with torturing non state combatants. Terrorists are different from uniformed soldiers and should not be granted the same protections under the rules of war.
 

SpartanN92

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I’m against it.

My expectation is that if the situation warrants it the person who does it should expect to be fired, and will do it anyway, and be fired.

If the situation isn’t worth being fired over, it’s not worth torturing over.
This reminds me of an old boss of mine that had a sign in his office that said “The floggings will stop when morale improves.” 😂😂😂
 
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Pumpkin Seeds

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No. It feeds you unreliable information. The intel that was used to prompt the Iraq War came from torture done in Egypt. The prisoner just started spurting out bullshit to make the torture stop.

I believe in leverage though. Having something valuable to trade for the information sought. Torture is cruel and the results unreliable.
 
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Tajaz2426

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It is not possible to withstand torture. Any one will speak when it is applied, it just depends on the person applying it, how long the suspect will last. The problem you run into with using torture techniques, is if you push too hard, the person composes instead of singing. For those that may not know, composing is where they just give you information they believe you want to hear. It is one of the main reasons we stopped water boarding suspected terrorists, as it is very painful, scares the shit out of them, and instead of getting them to sing, they just make up whatever for the pain to stop. My personal beliefs on the subject, remain personal.
 
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Hudo

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No I don't believe in the usefulness of torture nor do I believe that it is a suitable tool to get compliance or information. And obviously, it's uncivilized and savage as fuck. And if intelligence agiences have to resort to torture in order to get information, they have already failed at their job. Any backwater country hick can torture someone.
I also don't think this is a good tool to prevent and fight terrorism, the first thing should be to ask why a society actually is targeted and understand the situation on a macro level and with self-reflection of own actions.

But those are just my views and I'm sure the majority doesn't share them, which is ok, of course. And if some societies, states or organizations think that torture is a useful tool, good for them. But I see it as failure.
 

TrainedRage

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Im meh on it.
Do I care members of ISIS are being tortured? No.
Do I care that ISIS tortures innocent victims? Yes.
 

Tajaz2426

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No I don't believe in the usefulness of torture nor do I believe that it is a suitable tool to get compliance or information. And obviously, it's uncivilized and savage as fuck. And if intelligence agiences have to resort to torture in order to get information, they have already failed at their job. Any backwater country hick can torture someone.
I also don't think this is a good tool to prevent and fight terrorism, the first thing should be to ask why a society actually is targeted and understand the situation on a macro level and with self-reflection of own actions.

But those are just my views and I'm sure the majority doesn't share them, which is ok, of course. And if some societies, states or organizations think that torture is a useful tool, good for them. But I see it as failure.
Are you saying that the country should ask themselves why they deserved to be attacked by terrorists?

A society has to have those that understand geo-politics of the area from which the attack came. In the case of the terrorism we see today, it is the understanding that Islam is the only religion that hasn’t changed and still kill in the name of it. Not only that, but the political wind can shift daily.

If you weren’t saying that, I do apologize.
 
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