• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
  • Hi Guest. We've rebooted and consolidated our Communities section, so be sure to check it out and subscribe to some threads. Thanks!

Do you believe in the use of torture?

Cybrwzrd

Anime waifu panty shots are basically the same thing as paintings of the french baroque masters, if you think about it.
Sep 29, 2014
5,355
7,093
880
Death penalty is the opposite, though; you have people you need to never re-enter society, so why not just be honest and execute them instead of locking them up indefinitely? Locking them up in that scenario would be ethically and morally wrong.
The death penalty is too easy on the criminal.
 

Cybrwzrd

Anime waifu panty shots are basically the same thing as paintings of the french baroque masters, if you think about it.
Sep 29, 2014
5,355
7,093
880
i agree, i'd go even further and state that punitive justice as life without parole is also too easy

we should strive to rehabilitate wherever possible
Yes, but there are some crimes that should never be redeemable. Those are the ones that deserve a Sisyphean existence of existential terror.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Tesseract

Hudo

Member
Jul 26, 2018
2,480
2,565
400
Are you saying that the country should ask themselves why they deserved to be attacked by terrorists?

A society has to have those that understand geo-politics of the area from which the attack came. In the case of the terrorism we see today, it is the understanding that Islam is the only religion that hasn’t changed and still kill in the name of it. Not only that, but the political wind can shift daily.

If you weren’t saying that, I do apologize.
I wanted to convey that a society, state or organization should have those who ask these questions first before actions should be taken. And Islam is not inherently violent, actually far from it. In fact, I would rather say that of all the monotheistic religions, Christianity seems to be the most violent one throughout history. It's just that those terrorist groups quote the Quran severely out of context to indoctrinate very young und gullible people as well as people of a lower educational background.

However, I do agree that the political instability is an issue as well and deeply coupled with the inaccurate representation of Islamic values used by those groups. My main point was that meeting violence with violence isn't solving anything in the long-term. It only makes things worse, which can be observed in the development of the Middle East.
 

kittoo

Cretinously credulous
Apr 11, 2007
2,796
161
1,270
31
I accept that all my reasons why it's a horrific misuse of power would fade away into nothing if torturing someone stood between me and saving my child.
Then you should watch the movie Prisoners.
Its an amazing movie in general too.
 

Tesseract

Banned
Dec 7, 2008
42,676
21,015
1,490
The Pentagon
I stand by it. Those who are for torture are emotionally stunted, Godless, Beta-pussies.

If they've harmed you that badly, snatch their soul right from out of them and move on. Don't waste an extra second on a corpse, dead or alive.
well you are wrong, but i respect your takerns
 
Last edited:

Gashtronomy

Member
Apr 19, 2019
2,880
3,715
400
well you are wrong, but i respect your takerns
🤷‍♂️

I haven't read the whole bible but i'm sure God isn't thrilled with torture. Isn't there a line about treating your enemies well and looking after them and in the after-life God will fuck them up?

Cross-reference that thinking with the conflicts of the past where POW's treated like shit, vs conflicts where the POW's were treated well. The wars where the POW's were treated well, always ended with the two conflicting sides having a better long term relationship afterwards. For a case study, look at how England treated the Scottish and Irish during the wars and how those countries now see us VS how Britain treated German POW's and the Anglo-German relationship we have now

Agree to disagree
 
Last edited:
  • Thoughtful
Reactions: Tesseract

Tesseract

Banned
Dec 7, 2008
42,676
21,015
1,490
The Pentagon
🤷‍♂️

I haven't read the whole bible but i'm sure God isn't thrilled with torture. Isn't there a line about treating your enemies well and looking after them and in the after-life God will fuck them up?

Cross-reference that thinking with the conflicts of the past where POW's treated like shit, vs conflicts where the POW's were treated well. The wars where the POW's were treated well, always ended with the two conflicting sides having a better long term relationship afterwards. For a case study, look at how England treated the Scottish and Irish during the wars and how those countries now see us VS how Britain treated German POW's and the Anglo-German relationship we have now

Agree to disagree
i don't think god cares either way, at least if we're going full bible

torture works, and we should continue to use it wherever necessary

your point about pows is well taken of course, tho i'd probably separate them from scum fuck terrorists who behead children and the like
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Drake

Sub_Level

wants to fuck an Asian grill.
Apr 9, 2009
29,175
5,286
1,285
Should remain illegal.

Let the shadow people do it when absolutely necessary. They do all kinds of shit regardless of legality anyway and we as a society defer to their best judgement. But it shouldn't be an official policy, ever.
 

Gashtronomy

Member
Apr 19, 2019
2,880
3,715
400
i don't think god cares either way, at least if we're going full bible

torture works, and we should continue to use it wherever necessary

your point about pows is well taken of course, tho i'd probably separate them from scum fuck terrorists who behead children and the like
Nazi Germany gassed Jewish kids, and worse.

While I'm not defending 'terrorists', every nation has done some horrible shit. Britain roflstomped over communities, murdered, butchered and flayed anyone who go in their way and American nuked two cities, full of innocent women and children.

Torture is never needed when clever psychology can get the truthful answers you need without inflicting pain.
 

Tesseract

Banned
Dec 7, 2008
42,676
21,015
1,490
The Pentagon
Nazi Germany gassed Jewish kids, and worse.

While I'm not defending 'terrorists', every nation has done some horrible shit. Britain roflstomped over communities, murdered, butchered and flayed anyone who go in their way and American nuked two cities, full of innocent women and children.

Torture is never needed when clever psychology can get the truthful answers you need without inflicting pain.
clever psychology doesn't always work, torture does

shrug
 
  • Like
Reactions: Gashtronomy

Tesseract

Banned
Dec 7, 2008
42,676
21,015
1,490
The Pentagon
Clever psychology backed up by psychologically persuasive methods always work.

Torture leads to false information.

We solve more crimes through good cop/bad cop interrogation, than we do beating the shit out of a suspect
we'll have to agree to disagree, sorry

kinda goes without saying that torture is clever psychology btw, or psyche warfare taken to extremes

it's not always jack bauer hour
 
Last edited:

autoduelist

Member
Aug 30, 2014
10,934
15,988
855
Torture doesnt provide accurate Intel, so not only is it unconstitutional and amoral but it's also dumb.
It doesn't always provide accurate intel. Yes, sure. So if you you have what you believe to be accurate intel that a dirty nuke will be set off tomorrow in NYC, and you capture the bomber but he refuses to talk and interrogation is getting nowhere, what % of the time does torture need to be accurate before torture can be justified?

I don't have an easy answer. No answer works. At some point we need to trust experts, which is hard because they can be wrong, or corrupt. But you state 'doesn't provide accurate info' as if that means it's always inaccurate... but no, a better way to put it is simply that it doesn't always work. We can all agree to that. But that in and of itself doesn't mean anything. If it isn't always accurate... then sometimes it is. And when lives are at risk, that means something too.
 
Last edited:

12Goblins

Member
Mar 1, 2017
1,723
2,167
470
I always thought waterboarding was pretty genius tbh. it's like a shortcut to trick the brain into thinking its being tortured, without doing any long term damage (i think?).

overall the studies seem to show that it doesnt work though
 

Mohonky

Member
Jan 19, 2007
11,434
984
1,285
Im meh on it.
Do I care members of ISIS are being tortured? No.
Do I care that ISIS tortures innocent victims? Yes.
Where I land on it pretty much.

My concern, like the death penalty, is that innocents may end up being tortured or give false confessions because of it.

Christopher Hitchens got waterboarded just to experience it and he tapped out in seconds even knowing full well he was in a safe place. God knows how that would work if someone was legitimately torturing you for information or a confession.

But yeh if you told me unrepentant POS was getting the shit kicked of them, I wouldnt really care
 

johntown

Member
Dec 27, 2010
2,338
683
660
East Coast
I support torture in a limited scope. For instance, I think water boarding is perfectly fine and any other torture that doesn't actually hurt the person.

The actual effectiveness of it though can be called into question. I would think the only acceptable use would be for national security.....nothing regular police could ever use.
 
Last edited:

TrainedRage

Member
Feb 3, 2018
5,624
6,875
740
33
USA
Where I land on it pretty much.

My concern, like the death penalty, is that innocents may end up being tortured or give false confessions because of it.

Christopher Hitchens got waterboarded just to experience it and he tapped out in seconds even knowing full well he was in a safe place. God knows how that would work if someone was legitimately torturing you for information or a confession.

But yeh if you told me unrepentant POS was getting the shit kicked of them, I wouldnt really care
But Call of Duty taught me all you have to do while being water boarded is move your head left or right depending on where they are pouring the water.

I mean, I got an A rank on realistic for that mission so I'm pretty much an expert.

😉
 

Gargus

Member
Oct 1, 2018
820
1,015
455
If it is a situation where it's called for then yes I am for it. The real trick is knowing what kind to use and in what situations. If you torture someone enough they will shut down completely or will say anything to make it stop.

Torture isn't always needed though. There was a nazi interrogator who got his information without traditional torture. And used kindness as a means of getting information with great effect.

But yeah if one person needs to be have the screws put to them to protect others then have at it. If you're in a position to be tortured by the government then you've done something bad enough that I have no pity for you.
 

legacyzero

Banned
Feb 20, 2011
27,935
297
1,030
Nebraska
www.youtube.com
I dont believe in torture for the same reason as not believing in the death penalty.

It doesnt serve as a deterrent, its morally objectionable, even just a single digit percentage of inflicting it on an innocent person (justice being blind and all), makes it unacceptable to me.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Miku Miku
Jan 9, 2018
1,052
1,633
415
No, it's unacceptable.

And saying that you would do it if your child were at stake is a different matter. In that case, you're so desperate that you'll do it despite the consequences and are, ideally, going to personally accept the legal consequences to you afterwards. That's entirely different from permitting the use of torture as a sanctioned instrument of power.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ailynn
Oct 2, 2017
290
295
315
Official answer is no, but I wouldn't be outraged to learn that intelligence agents (ie Jack Bauer lol) go to extremes to obtain information that is used to save lives from terrorists.
 

MilkyJoe

Member
Jan 29, 2014
9,648
3,242
585
Quick FYI...

If you say you hit a policeman, or worse, you can guarantee that the incident report that covers you getting the ever living shit kicked out of you, by the police, in custody, later that night, is going to say you drunkenly ran into the cell wall, repeatedly. I know a lot of coppers.

That said, if you think a little torture is not going to happen during interrogation, I got a bridge to sell you.
 
  • Like
Reactions: johntown

Cucked SoyBoy

Member
Dec 18, 2018
552
798
315
It must never be endorsed as a legit tactic by our government. And not because I feel bad for our enemies, fuck them lol. When you make torture a man's job, you kill part of his soul. Once you've conditioned a man into being a torturer, he's now unfit to live in civilized society. Might as well put him down at that point like a rabid dog.

The examples given earlier such as your child being kidnapped are different. That's you as a private citizen doing something you know is wrong, but accepting the consequences (and it will never happen anyway outside of movies/TV).

But for our government to do it is absolutely unacceptable. Not least because our "justice" system often arrests the wrong person. It seems like every couple of years we get a story about some guy who was freed from prison after 10-15 years because DNA proved him innocent. I'm against the death penalty for the same reason.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Miku Miku

Ballthyrm

Member
Jun 21, 2013
636
746
555
Montpellier
It doesn't work.
That question answer itself.

Apart from being morally wrong, it waste time and ressources in the long run. There's plenty of evidence that better information is gathered through people manipulation.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Miku Miku

GingerNathan

Member
May 23, 2014
552
17
350
No, putting the studies that show it doesn't work aside and the morality of it (which is in my book is enough not to agree with it) it's too much power to put in a governments hands, and they're guaranteed to misuse that power. This isn't 24 and we're not talking about Jack Bauer, we're talking about real life governments being allowed to legally use torture, no.

While I'm at it I'm also against the death penalty, any sentencing given for crimes against society should include punishment for the individual, protection for the public, and the potential for rehabilitation. The death penalty only covers the first two conditions so it isn't suitable.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Miku Miku

HoodWinked

Member
Jun 30, 2010
5,385
309
795
Earth
I don't know that the studies are conclusive they seem either poorly designed experiments that use a bad facsimile to actual torture or conclude based on irrelevant data points. If you were on acedemia and made the conclusion that torture works how would your peers come down on you
 

Madonis

Member
Oct 21, 2018
766
409
280
Torture could be a grudgingly valid punishment for proven mass murder or other types of severe criminal offenses, but it's not too useful to gain intelligence.

Which means Hollywood "the clock is ticking, but only one man can save us!" scenarios shouldn't be employed as a guideline here. Reality doesn't match those depictions.
 
Last edited:

MisterFalcon

Member
Mar 12, 2013
3,042
210
445
Torture could be a grudgingly valid punishment for proven mass murder or other types of severe criminal offenses, but it's not too useful to gain intelligence.

Which means Hollywood "the clock is ticking, but only one man can save us!" scenarios shouldn't be employed as a guideline here. Reality doesn't match those depictions.
These cases do exist.


A child kidnapper is observed to take the ransom money, establishing beyond doubt his involvement. He is then arrested and refuses to cooperate, actively making the police wasting time with false information. When he was threatened with torture he gave up the location of the child's body.
 

Madonis

Member
Oct 21, 2018
766
409
280
These cases do exist.


A child kidnapper is observed to take the ransom money, establishing beyond doubt his involvement. He is then arrested and refuses to cooperate, actively making the police wasting time with false information. When he was threatened with torture he gave up the location of the child's body.
It's worth pointing out that the mere threat of torture, not actual torture, was what made him talk. I'm not against using threats (preferably through bluffing).

That can happen, I will admit, but it's a different situation. Different from the claim that torture in and of itself is the answer.

Hollywood often uses ideas or scenarios taken from reality as a base but then exaggerates them a lot, ignoring or simplifying the details.
 
Last edited: