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Do you think it will be possible for Nintendo to ever create a Mario game as groundbreaking as Mario64 was?

nkarafo

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And that's exactly the problem. Wrong systems.
These were the first. But please, inform me which ones are the right ones?

And while you are sarcastic and dismissive in the rest of your post, it's very clear the press had something to do with it along WITH game droughts which you omitted for convenience. As it only had the type of sales id did (almost 6 million NPD just short) in the US. Nowhere else. Seems weird for such a ground breaking game that shocked the world and made everyone dance. Almost caught up by Golden Eye (less than a 850k gap) also in the US, I think surpassed by GE in the UK. and surpassed by Mario Kart in Japan.
The N64 had most of it's success in the US, in case you didn't know. In Japan it was almost a total failure. In Europe it's sales were meh as well.

Goldeneye had a much bigger marketing campaign than the N64 itself or it's launch titles in the UK. Even in Greece, where Nintendo's representative company hardly made TV ads, made one for Goldeneye.

And as a European, let me also inform you that most of the bias and propaganda in the press was mostly benefiting the Playstation. In my country magazines would do anything to patronize N64's good games (like how every 3D platformer is kiddy but conveniently forgetting to mention the same for games like Croc on the PS1).

So please, i know bias and propaganda. Got sick of it back in the day and it was one of the reasons i never gave a shit about the press.
 
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Still waiting on you to name this 3d platformer you played before SM64.
You're waiting on your own hallucination, I never said anything about 3d platformers before M64, you must have imagined me mentioning that in your head. Which is why I pointed out it was a goal post move when you brought it up the first time.

Also no, it's not just immersion but you clearly don't have the mental capacity to stay consistent, which is why you made up an imaginary statement I never made accusing me of saying I though SMS was more influential than M64 "because teh shadows" which is nonsense.
 

Tg89

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You're waiting on your own hallucination, I never said anything about 3d platformers before M64, you must have imagined me mentioning that in your head. Which is why I pointed out it was a goal post move when you brought it up the first time.

Also no, it's not just immersion but you clearly don't have the mental capacity to stay consistent, which is why you made up an imaginary statement I never made accusing me of saying I though SMS was more influential than M64 "because teh shadows" which is nonsense.


Mario Sunshine arguably, was the ground breaking game as it actually had a somewhat living town with various shadow and lightning effects with an somewhat interactive environment and detailed design somewhat immersing you in a world and making Delfino seem like a real town/city as opposed to M64 feeling nothing like a kingdom and more like running around flat environments.

Didn't really imagine anything, just simplified a bunch of nonsense you wrote down. Nothing about that is groundbreaking, and had been done before SMS.

On the flip side, no one had done 3D platforming (arguably 3rd person 3d period) until Nintendo showed them how.
 
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These were the first. But please, inform me which ones are the right ones?
Gameboy and Master system were the first systems? lol?

Ever heard of home computers or PC? Or earlier PS1 games with open level design?

Gameboy and SMS to N64 of course you are going to jump up and down at M64.

The N64 had most of it's success in the US, in case you didn't know.
I've said that multiple times in this thread, don't know where you've been.

And as a European, let me also inform you that most of the bias and propaganda in the press was mostly benefiting the Playstation. In my country magazines would do anything to patronize N64's good games (like how every 3D platformer is kiddy but conveniently forgetting to mention the same for games like Croc on the PS1).

So please, i know bias and propaganda. Got sick of it back in the day and it was one of the reasons i never gave a shit about the press.

And what they did with GE in Europe, the US did with M64 (to a lesser extent) hence why only the US seems to have a obsession with the game among the people who had the console.
 

namekuseijin

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they're the only ones who can make a true Mario VR where you are Mario and jumping great heights and eating mushroom and getting high.

won't ever happen though, there audience are firmly stuck in the 80s and want to control a character with a gamepad. And in VR that kind of platformer already happened with Astro Bot.

groundbreaking? They've left that train a long time ago.
 
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I said you imagined the "before" mario 64 platformer comment, I didn't say you imagined what I said SMS, I said you lied (factually) about what I said (that I only though it was more ground breaking than M64 because teh shadows while you ignored all the other points)

On the flip side, no one had done 3D platforming until Nintendo showed them how.
I mean this is false but ok. Maybe the "type" of 3D platforming sure but 3D platforming in general? No. (even third person)
 
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Oh yeah. All those open level design PS1 games that came before SM64. How could I forget.

PS1 didn't even have analog sticks when SM64 came out.
Yes, and those games used the D-pad, people who actually played a PSX (not you) know this. I fact there were quite a few open ended level design games of varying genres before the Dual Shock came out. I know shock.
 

nkarafo

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There was nothing groundbreaking about Sunshine. It was a similar game to Mario 64 but they added this weird water gun. Such a great idea that they never used it again. Yet, most of Mario 64's influences went on to even later games.

Gameboy and Master system were the first systems? lol?

Ever heard of home computers or PC? Or earlier PS1 games with open level design?

Gameboy and SMS to N64 of course you are going to jump up and down at M64.
Dude, are you dense? I said, these were my first systems. Had a Mega Drive/Mega CD and SNES before the N64. And plenty of PS1 experience because of my friends.

And what they did with GE in Europe, the US did with M64 (to a lesser extent) hence why only the US seems to have a obsession with the game among the people who had the console.
I don't understand what's your issue with popular games or marketing. All big/good games enjoyed good reviews and success. What you say for Mario 64 can be used for every popular game in existence.

It's just a flawed logic.
 
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Tg89

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I said you imagined the "before" mario 64 platformer comment, I didn't say you imagined what I said SMS, I said you lied (factually) about what I said (that I only though it was more ground breaking than M64 because teh shadows while you ignored all the other points)


I mean this is false but ok. Maybe the "type" of 3D platforming sure but 3D platforming in general? No. (even third person)

Yes, and those games used the D-pad, people who actually played a PSX (not you) know this. I fact there were quite a few open ended level design games of varying genres before the Dual Shock came out. I know shock.

When has anyone suggested that the groundbreaking aspect of SM64 is its open ended level design?

It's the controls and movement in the 3d space. Nintendo created the blueprint, everyone else drew from it. Same with Z targeting in Zelda.

Yes, to your point there were open ended level design games prior to SM64, and none of them were fun to play because no one knew how to handle movement/controls yet.
 
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Dude, are you dense? I said, these were my first systems.

No you didn't this is what you said:

These were the first. But please, inform me which ones are the right ones?
So yeah sorry if there was a misunderstanding but you didn't specify.

I don't understand what's your issue with sames or marketing. All big/good games enjoyed good reviews and success.
Your hallucinating, I don't have an issue with marketing in general, just that marketing is a big part of why some people believe that the game was much more groundbreaking than it actually was, a game that didn't sell as it did in the US with the massive press nonsense it had, and it basically fell behind in every other region to other games despite the same press hype and bundles. Surely a game with the US hype equal to GTA III would have done more?

That's a logical question.
 

nkarafo

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No you didn't this is what you said:
Yes, i said these were the first. It's right there in the words you quoted. Not sure where the confusion is.

Your hallucinating, I don't have an issue with marketing in general, just that marketing is a big part of why some people believe that the game was much more groundbreaking than it actually was, a game that didn't sell as it did in the US with the massive press nonsense it had, and it basically fell behind in every other region to other games despite the same press hype and bundles. Surely a game with the US hype equal to GTA III would have done more?

That's a logical question.
I don't know what to tell you. Mario 64 sold about as well as it could providing the console sales base in each region. Most people who had an N64 also had Mario 64 (and it was never a pack in title in Europe at lauch).

You really come off as someone who gobbled those Official Playstation magazines back in the day.
 

Tg89

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So you didn't even bother reading that original post you quoted and attacked me on huh?

I did, it was painful, but I did.

I know you brought up the press. I still don't know why, it has nothing to do with the premise of the thread other than you thinking people got tricked into thinking SM64 was innovative. But you can't name a game that did the things it did before.
 
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Yes, i said these were the first. It's right there in the words you quoted. Not sure where the confusion is.
You're ignoring the context of the conversation, the "mine" missing is important. Not that it changes anything.

I don't know what to tell you. Mario 64 sold about as well as it could providing the console sales base in each region. Most people who had an N64 also had Mario 64 (and it was never a pack in title in Europe at lauch).

You really come off as someone who gobbled those Official Playstation magazines back in the day.
No this is you not understanding the point and trying to play it off like I'm the fanboy when you're the one who seems to have a mental trapping here.

Having a game sell that modest with as much hype and claims of ground breaking earth shaking innovation would cause any logical person to ask the question of whether the hype was justified. You are making it into something else complicating the issue,
 
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I did, it was painful, but I did.

I know you brought up the press. I still don't know why, it has nothing to do with the premise of the thread other than you thinking people got tricked
No, not even close, the title of the thread is directly related to the press. The press pushed the narrative and all I did was give my opinion on why I don't think it was groundbreaking and used the press as one of the reasons people think that (especially from the US but elsewhere)

You can disagree but instead the first thing you did was make up a statement I never made about shadows so...
 

Wonko_C

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Nintendo never missed the boat, they were there before the boat even showed up, then got hit by the boat because their eyes were bleeding.

Nintendo had the only VR-Only console ever made, which means they also had the best VR-Only console ever made.

They only used the word "Virtual" because at that time it was the "in" word. But real VR systems of the time already had head-tracking and motion controls (Dactyl Nightmare), so nope, that's not VR.

Virtual Boy is more like an interactive Viewmaster: Just a screen glued to your face with a 3D effect and standard controls. No real sense of scale nor presence. It's more a precursor to the 3DS than anything else.

Only in VR.

Mario 64 was so groundbreaking because it was the first 3D Mario game. The shift from the 2D Super Mario World to the fully 3D Mario 64 was truly mind melting.

I can only see a Mario game being that revolutionary again if it was shifted into VR.
Came to post exactly this. Mario needs to be brought into the Z-Axis (VR). Yes, Mario has already jumped into the Z-Axis since 64, but that Z-Axis is still constrained by a two-dimensional screen.

The paradigm shift will only occur when you're inside Mario's world. Just like Astro Bot.
 
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nkarafo

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Having a game sell that modest with as much hype and claims of ground breaking earth shaking innovation would cause any logical person to ask the question of whether the hype was justified. You are making it into something else complicating the issue,
Completely flawed logic.

As if innovation has anything to do with sales.

Also, this is the first time i read that Mario 64 didn't sell well. But hey! It still sold twice as many as Sunshine, yet here you are, claiming its the more groundbreaking/innovative title.

Talk about shooting yourself on the foot here.
 
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Tg89

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No, not even close, the title of the thread is directly related to the press. The press pushed the narrative and all I did was give my opinion on why I don't think it was groundbreaking and used the press as one of the reasons people think that (especially from the US but elsewhere)

You can disagree but instead the first thing you did was make up a statement I never made about shadows so...
Yeah, the great conspiracy of 96, where all the press combined their efforts to push the Mario narrative.
 
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Tg89

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Completely flawed logic.

As if innovation has anything to do with sales.

Also, this is the first time i read that Mario 64 didn't sell well. But hey! It still sold twice as many as Sunshine, yet here you are, claiming its the more groundbreaking/innovative title.

Talk about shooting yourself on the foot here.
I think we're getting baited my dude.
 

CS Lurker

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I don't think so. I mean, Bowser's Fury is great and I believe the next 3D Mario (probably something based on what BF) has everything to beat all 3D Marios released to date. But M64's accomplishment was directly tied to a redefining technology advancement.

VR had that M64 effect on me when I first tried the Rift DK2 (and the CV1 with Touch controllers after that). Even if Nintendo releases a Nintendo Quest, it will not be new anymore to me. But I surely want them to release it with a Mario Kart VR. I'm sure that would be madly good (and it would become my favorite MK ever).
 
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Danknugz

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Not for me, first time I played mario64 I was on acid

Edit: as for VR, needs to be higher fidelity before it will reach the level of adoption and casual market to be as much of a phenomenon as mario64.

kids: don’t do drugs or acid
 
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Sybrix

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Unlikely, it’s the same conversation around SD to HD... we’ll never have a jump like that again.

Technology is very incremental now, it improves slightly with each new device, where as ps2 to Ps3 was such a huge change.

Going from SMB to Mario 64 will never happen again
 

TheMan

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Nah, I think VR was their shot at this but Astrobot filled in the niche. They could create a stellar experience but it wouldn't have the groundbreaking factor that SM64 had
 
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Marvel14

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If Nintendo can reinvent and groundbreak Zelda with BOTW, they can do the same for Mario all over again.
 
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RoadHazard

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it really wasn't that ground-breaking and the mass propaganda campaign for it only really worked in the US which was aided by droughts in the amount of available games and later being bundled with the console and it still didn't sell even half the US ltd or even a 3rd of the US ltd of the N64 itself, it only sold just short of 6 million NPD and within spitting distance from Golden Eye which also benefitted from the game droughts and bundles, though not as many bundles as M64.

Basically removing the then press hype surrounding it, it was mostly just a very empty platformer that relied on backtracking and collectables, the novelty was running around open spaces with objects disguising the fact the levels were empty. Very flat colors, somewhat slow movement though fps was somewhat consistent, and boxy polygons even though the image quality was high due to lack of pushing anything substantial which was somewhat of a benefit.

But it worked for the time back in the day, In the US, and the game droughts helped it and later the bundles. Mario Sunshine arguably, was the ground breaking game as it actually had a somewhat living town with various shadow and lightning effects with an somewhat interactive environment and detailed design somewhat immersing you in a world and making Delfino seem like a real town/city as opposed to M64 feeling nothing like a kingdom and more like running around flat environments.

Both have tedious game design and are hard to go back to although Sunshine has a good first couple hours before the poorer designed levels and "platform dimension' stages started getting worse,

This is the worst post since SM64 was released.
 

Azelover

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I think Galaxy is the one you're looking for, or at least the closest to it.

In terms of game design impact, I don't think we'll get better than that anytime soon.
 

RoadHazard

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If Nintendo can reinvent and groundbreak Zelda with BOTW, they can do the same for Mario all over again.

BotW was revolutionary for the series, and is in my opinion the best game ever made, but it didn't do the "wow, I didn't know games could be like this" thing that SM64 did. It just felt like a completely new experience.

I think a lot of people (not saying this applies to you specifically) saying SM64 wasn't that special weren't actually there when it hit, but have only seen or played it later. You really had to be there to get how mind-blowing it was.
 

BlackTron

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I’m still waiting for an analog stick that feels as precise as the N64’s. If only Nintendo had designed it to last.




One could argue Sega did that multiple times through the years, only on the negative side of things.

Ok first, THANK YOU, this is my exact stance on the N64 controller, it was the first analog stick I ever used, and still the most precise...which is sad. I remember the first page of game manuals called it a "precision instrument", THEY WEREN'T KIDDING. Its design may have been prone to wear (especially if you had Mario Party) but small price to pay for the hardware to at least do its job when it was working.

This was hugely clear to me when I played Ocarina of Time on GC. Aiming was an annoying chore instead of the precise high-fidelity fun of aiming on 64. Try doing the archery range on the 64 and then try the gamecube version...joke!! I would probably still play a few FPS games on console if aiming was n64 standard lol.

Anyway, as for Sonic, I honestly didn't find very much unexpected from Sonic since Dreamcast. The biggest surprise was how bad Sonic 2006 was. It set off a pattern of mediocrity that was so well known it had a name, the "sonic cycle". Bad Sonic games with awful gimmicks became the expectation. The few games that didn't stink, well one was a literal intended rehash and the other (Colors) was surprising only in that it was a Sonic that wasn't horrible.

The unique gimmicks of each game, like the werehog, weren't really "redefining" anything be it positive or negative (other than redefining the reputation of Sonic.) It was just a button mashing beat em up that happened to be there. My plot twist referred to SEGA releasing a new console with a game that actually redefines how we experience or what we expect from a new game -a la Mario 64.

What would it be? I can't say, it would be for them to figure out and wow us with. Remember, the first time we saw Mario 64, we had no preconcieved notion of what it should be or look like. Nintendo simply showed us!

I would be really excited about this, because Nintendo likes to "redefine" things but they won't do it if it can't be made with old cheap tech and marked up...I feel like the old SEGA would start with more of a "well what would be really awesome" approach and figure out how to make it work, even if it had to be a little more expensive or it meant they couldn't make an insane markup on the hardware necessary.
 

Grechy34

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I’d argue Odyssey was. Same with Galaxy 1 and 2

the only thing that makes Mario 64 ‘magical’ for me these days is mostly the nostalgia.

Unbelievable games but not ground breaking. Anyone who grew up in the N64 era and played SM64 for the first time was a moment that I don't believe will ever be recreated in gaming.
 

Jubenhimer

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Mario 64 was the perfect "Right place, right time" storm that's very difficult to replicate these days. It single handedly showed the industry how 3D games should be made with 360 degree analog movement, and a controllable camera. It demonstrated to gamers exactly what you can do with a 3D game when you have the right tools, and just how that new dimension can create new genres. 3D consoles were still very new at the time, and many early 3D games on the PlayStation and Sega Saturn feel clunky and hard to control because there were no rules set for 3D. But Mario 64 came in justified the format.

Nintendo can still make incredibly unique and groundbreaking Mario games as they've shown with Super Mario Galaxy and Odyssey, but there probably will never be one as industry shaping and re-defining as Super Mario 64.
 

Wunray

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Was about to say no then bowswer fury came to mind. An open world platformer can be groundbreaking.
 
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A lot of disagreements seem to be rooted in people's differing interpretations of the word "groundbreaking."

It's not that it can't happen, but it can't be predicted or planned and requires risk, timing, and luck. A rare fusion of emerging technologies and artistic brilliance.
 

ReBurn

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I really enjoyed Mario 64. It frustrated me but it was such a good game. It wasn't my favorite game of that year, though. I enjoyed Tomb Raider and Crash Bandicoot more.

I never really thought of it as groundbreaking but for open world 3D platformers I suppose it was. Jumping Flash! released the year prior and was a good concept but Nintendo really refined that free roam 3D platforming concept.
 

Neff

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Mario 64 is the last groundbreaking Mario game. Galaxy and others are better, yeah. Just better versions of 64.

I don't agree. While Mario's 3D sequels are great games, Nintendo has sadly never attempted to replicate the inertia, weight and precision timing from SM64. Subsequent entries tend to be more user-friendly, with loose, generous inputs and floaty physics. As such they're not quite as satisfying to play imo.

I’m still waiting for an analog stick that feels as precise as the N64’s. If only Nintendo had designed it to last.

The tiny, practically non-existent deadzone was what made it feel so good. It was highly sensitive and the instant feedback felt amazing. Unfortunately like you say it was also its Achilles' heel, especially once the sensor brackets started to warp with use over time and the stick loosened. It was common to see Mario turning on his heel simply by shaking the controller.

Who are these "pro gamers"

Me
 
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Twinguistics

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Was about to say no then bowswer fury came to mind. An open world platformer can be groundbreaking
Forum is bugged on my mobile. I often can't see what I'm typing and it comes up blank.

I was going to ask how Bowser's fury is groundbreaking? What new ground does it break exactly?
 

AV

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No.

Closest they could get now would be Mario VR and that won't happen for an incredibly long time, if ever.
 

BlackTron

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Thanks again for confirming you're blinded by nostalgia. I played the game at release and lol at "muh speedrunning"', the controls of Mario 64 have been surpassed a long time ago. Seems you haven't played a platformer since the 90's. Just lol if you still think Mario 64 has some magical controls, hell the N64 pad was garbage back then as it is now, dogsh*t joystick.

Thanks for your opinion that the 64 control stick was bad, of course if you were to spend any time aiming with it you would find that it's still the best console analog stick ever released lol. Best example is still putting Zelda's archery range side by side on 64 and GC. Not even a remote contest the difference is huge and immediate. I can still easily get a perfect score on N64 but have yet to ever do it on GC.

As for Mario. Appears to me that you are the one allowing the passage of time to cloud your judgement. We have games that run and look and feel quite smoother, yes. In terms of controls, Mario64 hasn't really ever been beaten even by Nintendo. It has the hair trigger precision and reliability of an old 2D game but in 3D. Back then the tech, hardware and code was much simpler, with less bloat and software layers between you and the character. The result was a tighter play experience.
 

Wunray

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Forum is bugged on my mobile. I often can't see what I'm typing and it comes up blank.

I was going to ask how Bowser's fury is groundbreaking? What new ground does it break exactly?
Didn't say it was, the concept of bowswer fury came to mind and a full fledge open world mario game could be ground breaking.
 

Twinguistics

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Didn't say it was, the concept of bowswer fury came to mind and a full fledge open world mario game could be ground breaking.
Oh I see. Sorry. That makes more sense. Yeah a Mario game with one huge level as big as the botw map would be interesting.