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Do you think the EU will collapse?

Will the EU survive

  • Yes

    Votes: 22 28.9%
  • No

    Votes: 35 46.1%
  • Unsure

    Votes: 19 25.0%

  • Total voters
    76

IDKFA

Member
Jan 15, 2017
662
855
435
There was a story I saw recently about the Eastern nations in the EU.
Basically put, Poland and Hungary have blocked the EU budget via vetos. The package includes €750bn for a Covid recovery fund.

Why would Poland and Hungary block such a move? Surly access to this funding is in their beneficial interest? Well yes, if it was just funding shared between EU member states. However, this funding comes with a caveat. If this budget goes through, it is linked to the EU rule of law, something that Eastern nations are rightly uncomfortable with.

Polish Justice Minister Zbigniew Ziobro declared at a news conference Monday that “There will be no consent to this mechanism” and that such a mechanism would “radically limit Poland’s sovereignty.”

Poland and Hungary, as well as the Czech Republic have already gotten into trouble with the EU recently.

In April this year, the ECJ ruled that Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic broke EU law when they failed to give refuge to asylum seekers arriving in southern Europe.

Now this rule of law wants to ensure that these nations accept EU laws, which is why it is tied to this carrot of a Covid recovery package.

It's not surprising a nation like Poland, which has a history of being oppressed and ruled by foreign powers, would be against accepting this deal.

If a nation doesn't have a say in its own immigration policy, then can it really be called a sovereign, independent nation?

I'm not sure of the solution to the problem, but I could certainly see the Eastern bloc getting so sick of the EU that they just decided to leave it together. That, potentially could be very damaging to the EU. I'm not sure how it is in Italy at the moment, but I remember seeing early in the year people in Italy burning EU flags and a new, anti-EU party in that country has just cropped up (Italexit party).

Personal view. I voted Brexit, but I see the benefits of the EU as a trading bloc. I also enjoyed Freedom of Movement as without it, I would have never have met my wife. However, I voted to leave as I saw what the EU was becoming. I could see it slowly morphing into a unified federal state, which is something I couldn't support. To tell you the truth, I've changed a bit since 2016 and my views are slightly different, but that's for another, future thread.

So Gaf, what do you think? Do you think the EU is on the verge of total collapse, or is this just a blip?



 

kikkis

Member
Aug 13, 2020
54
120
220
I always think moves like this are just bluffs to get even more funding by eastern block. I think EU will become even more pervasive ie. federal, which I oppose, but I think future depends primarily on the economy of the big eu countries like italy and spain. One cant just endlessly pour debt money, collective debt money and straight handouts from other countries. And its not like italy is gonna make any structural economic changes, so yeah at some point EU is gonna crash hard.
 
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Majukun

Member
Jun 19, 2009
12,019
289
990
if the eu is surviving brexit, it would survive poland coming out, although not ideal like for any country.

this being said, while i can see some countries being having issues with some law of amendments, brexit has been a cautionary tale of something for any country thinking about detatching themselves from the single market, if the uk are so in trouble, think about a lesser economy.

for italy, i'm italian but have bot lived there for the last year and a half, but from what i heard the "far right" and anti european partys and sentiment have shrunk in the last period, not expanded..it still exists and still goes on the streets sometimes together with the anti vax guys and the like, but it seems less prevalent from when Salvini and the League seemed closed to actually gte to govern or at least have a big part in it.

but as i said, i don't live in Italy right now so my hand on the pulse of the country might be off
 
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Dee Dah Dave

Member
Nov 24, 2013
6,441
2,631
665
England, UK
Yes. Ever increasing political union is not what people want, especially when many of their ideas are poor to say the least.

A society needs to be like an extended family for it to survive and even prosper. The furthest you can stretch that IMO is to the size of a country. Trying to go bigger than that is just going to water down who you are and what you stand for. That won’t last and shouldn’t even be desirable. Patriotic civic nationalism with focus on being friends with like minded countries is the way.
 

IDKFA

Member
Jan 15, 2017
662
855
435
if the eu is surviving brexit, it would survive poland coming out, although not ideal like for any country.

this being said, while i can see some countries being having issues with some law of amendments, brexit has been a cautionary tale of something for any country thinking about detatching themselves from the single market, if the uk are so in trouble, think about a lesser economy.

for italy, i'm italian but have bot lived there for the last year and a half, but from what i heard the "far right" and anti european partys and sentiment have shrunk in the last period, not expanded..it still exists and still goes on the streets sometimes together with the anti vax guys and the like, but it seems less prevalent from when Salvini and the League seemed closed to actually gte to govern or at least have a big part in it.

but as i said, i don't live in Italy right now so my hand on the pulse of the country might be off
It's interesting what you've said about Italy.

During the pandemic peak, I saw lots of videos of Italians burning the EU flag in disgust on how they felt the EU had abandoned them.

It would seem that this was blown up on social media (as most things are on social media) or it was just a flash in the pan.

There is this Italian crime drama on Netflix called Suburra. In it, there is a corrupted politician in Rome called Amedeo Cinaglia, who says in one season that people always vote for the right when they're scared.

This is how I thought Italy would go. I could see that people were angry and scared with the strict lockdown, with economic uncertainty, with mass immigration and generally feeling abandoned by the EU and left to fend for themselves. I honestly thought this new Italexit party would really take off and maybe, Italy would vote to leave the EU.

On a side note, God, I love Italy. How can one country have so much beauty?
 
Dec 4, 2019
1,686
2,460
495
The EU is run by people that don't seem to have the people's interests in mind. So no, it will not survive.

It's bleeding money and making terrible decisions like migration, that overrule countries' wishes.
People are getting fed up, that's for sure.
 
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Amiga

Member
Jul 8, 2020
555
906
405
There was a story I saw recently about the Eastern nations in the EU.
Basically put, Poland and Hungary have blocked the EU budget via vetos. The package includes €750bn for a Covid recovery fund.

Why would Poland and Hungary block such a move? Surly access to this funding is in their beneficial interest? Well yes, if it was just funding shared between EU member states. However, this funding comes with a caveat. If this budget goes through, it is linked to the EU rule of law, something that Eastern nations are rightly uncomfortable with.

Polish Justice Minister Zbigniew Ziobro declared at a news conference Monday that “There will be no consent to this mechanism” and that such a mechanism would “radically limit Poland’s sovereignty.”

Poland and Hungary, as well as the Czech Republic have already gotten into trouble with the EU recently.

In April this year, the ECJ ruled that Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic broke EU law when they failed to give refuge to asylum seekers arriving in southern Europe.

Now this rule of law wants to ensure that these nations accept EU laws, which is why it is tied to this carrot of a Covid recovery package.

It's not surprising a nation like Poland, which has a history of being oppressed and ruled by foreign powers, would be against accepting this deal.

If a nation doesn't have a say in its own immigration policy, then can it really be called a sovereign, independent nation?

I'm not sure of the solution to the problem, but I could certainly see the Eastern bloc getting so sick of the EU that they just decided to leave it together. That, potentially could be very damaging to the EU. I'm not sure how it is in Italy at the moment, but I remember seeing early in the year people in Italy burning EU flags and a new, anti-EU party in that country has just cropped up (Italexit party).

Personal view. I voted Brexit, but I see the benefits of the EU as a trading bloc. I also enjoyed Freedom of Movement as without it, I would have never have met my wife. However, I voted to leave as I saw what the EU was becoming. I could see it slowly morphing into a unified federal state, which is something I couldn't support. To tell you the truth, I've changed a bit since 2016 and my views are slightly different, but that's for another, future thread.

So Gaf, what do you think? Do you think the EU is on the verge of total collapse, or is this just a blip?




- these Eastern Euro nations are also called the Visegrad. Germany has always considered these nations a sphere of natural influence like UK and France with their former colonies. and the EU is basically Germany now. it's the new version of the Holy Roman Empire.
- Poland is the hero for the independent nations of the world.
- the big foreign policy focus for the Biden admin is to put intelligence and financial resources against eastern Euro leaders.
 
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GamingKaiju

Member
Oct 24, 2014
1,047
1,214
580
Maybe.

I voted remain in 2016 as I thought the benefits of easy trade outweighed the negatives of the EU. However after the brexit vote the EU masks slipped for me, mainly because the nation’s handing the EU more power 🤨

Britains voice in Europe was one of less centralisation, less powers, no military and more focus on trade now with Britain gone the EU will keep going until fractures begin to appear.

The main drivers of any separation will be the ECB and migration. The southern blocks are been crippled by the ECB asserting their way onto them, in Greece they installed a Troika to ensure that Greece kept to its bailout package, the bailout package basically gave Greece the money it needed to cover its debt payments to foreign banks, so Germany gave Greece money that went straight back into German banks leaving Greece unable to invest in it self. Now it could be argued that after 10 years of harsh austerity Greece was starting to turn a corner but this argument is now mute with Covid the Southern block just had nearly a year without tourism 😬 the austerity that comes after is going to be worse and a lot, lot longer.

Migration will be another breaking point first we’ve got sovereign nations been told by a an outside power telling them to accept more migrants, and they’ll have their hands tied forced to accept more migrants, these nations were not asked they are told.

Macron was calling for more secure borders recently when the EU have spent the last 20 years getting rid of them it’s nuts.

All the EU needs to become an actual continent is a centralised tax regime and a military well it’s nearly got the tax regime the ECB already holds control over a Country’s VAT % it’s a flat rate across the entire bloc. Britain will regain control of its VAT in December.

I forgot who said it but an ex-soviet said

“ I don’t understand why the Europeans are obsessed with creating their own European USSR”

I never understood what he meant by this but Think about it... you got 27 sovereign nations held to the will of a highly centralised power structure that has no democratic right or structure to it. People will point to the MEP’s but a MEP cannot amend, rescind or lobby to create laws this is all hidden behind the curtain of the European Commission which has no elected officials if your friends with one they might entertain you but all the power and decision making is kept within a small tight knit circle. For a country to go against the commission they have to kick up a right fuss have some sway to them, Britain was well known for this and even then we hardly won. Dave Cameron tried before and basically got fuck all at the last minute.
 

Majukun

Member
Jun 19, 2009
12,019
289
990
It's interesting what you've said about Italy.

During the pandemic peak, I saw lots of videos of Italians burning the EU flag in disgust on how they felt the EU had abandoned them.

It would seem that this was blown up on social media (as most things are on social media) or it was just a flash in the pan.

There is this Italian crime drama on Netflix called Suburra. In it, there is a corrupted politician in Rome called Amedeo Cinaglia, who says in one season that people always vote for the right when they're scared.

This is how I thought Italy would go. I could see that people were angry and scared with the strict lockdown, with economic uncertainty, with mass immigration and generally feeling abandoned by the EU and left to fend for themselves. I honestly thought this new Italexit party would really take off and maybe, Italy would vote to leave the EU.

On a side note, God, I love Italy. How can one country have so much beauty?
as i said, i've been absent from italy for more than a year now (living in Germany atm), but from what i could gather while people are indeed hanging by a thread after the various lockdown and covid stuff (situation where i used to live is indeed pretty depressing, with many businesses closed or near that), most of them also saw the military vehicles carrying bodies back when covid was rampaging, so from what i know, while of course everyone would be more than happy to leave covid behind their shoulders and not having to deal with restrictions anymore, the threat felt way too real in italy for it to be just dismissed as a mere hoax or exaggeration like it happened in other countries.

This has not been the case for everyone or everywhere though, which i suspect is why the virus has started spreading so much again..the northern part of Italy took most of the brunt of the actual pandemic, while the south was only barely touched, so many people there might have not taken it seriously enough, lowering the guards and helping it spread again (also italy has always been the country of the fuck you, got mine).

I do agree with the show that when people are scared the tend to vote right, because in italy they are usually the parties of the easy solutions to difficult issues, while the left is usually the one of the "suck it up and go forward, it's for the ultimately greater good".


i do think though that salvini, which was the far right leader , and still is, made a fatal mistake when he started playing the covid is a hoax/exaggeration drum...immigration is a looming threat he can play and that is fuzzy enough that people will never be sure if the damage he is claiming it make is real or not...covid was pretty much real and that broken the suspension of disbelief for many people.

not sure how brexit has been covered outside of the internet though, but i doubt the difficulties the uk are having striking a deal made moderate people thinking about leaving the EU..of course we do have our fair share of extremist from the "outside of eu no matter the cost, how dare they tell us what to do", but they seem to be the minority.
 
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mickaus

Gold Member
May 30, 2019
340
357
400
I think with the unemployment created by COVID, EU citizens will be less willing then ever to have high levels of immigration and refugees. With the top levels of the EU seemingly deadset on keeping high levels of immigration and refugees, the only way citizens can take control is to leave the EU entirely. I think if the EU had some sort of EU wide referendum/policy vote that citizens could express their opinion that way but it seems the only way to change the policy is to leave the Union and set national laws instead.
 

Arkam

Member
Jan 21, 2012
4,011
3,215
750
Here, Now and maybe later
Either EU ceases to exist or European Nations will cease to exist. Both seem likely, but I would put my money on EU dissolving if I had to pick a horse.

The last 20 years have been in reality, the best of times and look at the strain on the bloc’s unity. Now imagine how it would fair during the worst of times.

And this recent spat is nothing really atypical. There is a East/west and North/south power struggle constantly. If Germany ever finds its self with out export markets they will loose their dominant position and that’s when these spats become serious.
 
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Alx

Member
Jan 22, 2007
19,060
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1,380
"EU will crumble and fall" has been a recurring prediction by all sceptics for the last 20 years at least (probably more, but I wasn't following politics then). Internet bubble, greek debt, subprimes crisis, migrant crisis, Brexit, were all supposed to destroy it, and yet it's still there. The Hungary and Poland thing is nothing is comparison, and if anything the covid crisis has strengthened it (the ability to create a common debt is a huge step forward towards tighter links between members).
So no it's not falling right now. It won't last forever of course (nothing does), and there are threats agains it (that's the very reason it exists, to better fight those threats), but I'm personally not worried.
 
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Mar 3, 2020
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There was a story I saw recently about the Eastern nations in the EU.
Basically put, Poland and Hungary have blocked the EU budget via vetos. The package includes €750bn for a Covid recovery fund.

Why would Poland and Hungary block such a move? Surly access to this funding is in their beneficial interest? Well yes, if it was just funding shared between EU member states. However, this funding comes with a caveat. If this budget goes through, it is linked to the EU rule of law, something that Eastern nations are rightly uncomfortable with.

Polish Justice Minister Zbigniew Ziobro declared at a news conference Monday that “There will be no consent to this mechanism” and that such a mechanism would “radically limit Poland’s sovereignty.”

Poland and Hungary, as well as the Czech Republic have already gotten into trouble with the EU recently.

In April this year, the ECJ ruled that Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic broke EU law when they failed to give refuge to asylum seekers arriving in southern Europe.

Now this rule of law wants to ensure that these nations accept EU laws, which is why it is tied to this carrot of a Covid recovery package.

It's not surprising a nation like Poland, which has a history of being oppressed and ruled by foreign powers, would be against accepting this deal.

If a nation doesn't have a say in its own immigration policy, then can it really be called a sovereign, independent nation?

I'm not sure of the solution to the problem, but I could certainly see the Eastern bloc getting so sick of the EU that they just decided to leave it together. That, potentially could be very damaging to the EU. I'm not sure how it is in Italy at the moment, but I remember seeing early in the year people in Italy burning EU flags and a new, anti-EU party in that country has just cropped up (Italexit party).

Personal view. I voted Brexit, but I see the benefits of the EU as a trading bloc. I also enjoyed Freedom of Movement as without it, I would have never have met my wife. However, I voted to leave as I saw what the EU was becoming. I could see it slowly morphing into a unified federal state, which is something I couldn't support. To tell you the truth, I've changed a bit since 2016 and my views are slightly different, but that's for another, future thread.

So Gaf, what do you think? Do you think the EU is on the verge of total collapse, or is this just a blip?



I got a lot of stick for voting for Brexit from friends.

The analogy I used to explain my problems with the EU was this one.

If I walk into a pharmacist to buy a condom for my dick. They usually come in Medium, Large and XL Large.

So if I can buy a simple packet of polyurethane to fit onto my member with different options, why does the EU think it can force one set of complex rules onto 28 vastly different nations with different cultures, needs and people?

There's also the problem that every nation is governed by a bunch of cunts who never listen to them. Why would I want yet another layer of cunts who dont listen on top of them? That's not including the other layers such as local councils.
 

Zefah

Gold Member
Jan 7, 2007
42,472
20,715
1,635
Yeah, I don't think it has a chance long-term. It's just a hard pill to swallow for people in most countries to have some unelected bureaucrat in another country enact policies that adversely affect their lives.
 
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Alx

Member
Jan 22, 2007
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This was the basis for the eventual EU. They may lose Italy but France, Germany, and the Benelux will likely continue to cooperate in some kind of union. Shrinking the EU down to that size may actually be of some benefit if they wish to have a unified armed forces and so on as well.
Well both focusing on a smaller core and expanding have their own merits. The original idea of grouping countries so they won't fight for resources (coal and steel) would suggest that you should expand the union to all neighbours interested by said resources (those being more free market and services than coal and steel nowadays). But building a political Europe with common values and means of action would definitely make more sense with a smaller club. I guess we could imagine having both, a smaller, almost federal EU and a larger one focused on single market stuff.
 
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Ballthyrm

Member
Jun 21, 2013
1,201
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Montpellier
The EU as a trading block may collapse, but the EU has a political project, nah.
I think we integrated Poland and these other countries mainly so they didn't fall under Russian influence.

Poland and Hungary are throwing a fit because they know the good days of Free European money are over and they aren't happy about it.
The people in power grew Fat and rich by taking over all the Contract and now they are complaining that the people giving them money want to have some control over how it is used.

So yeah, apart from multiplying the GDP by 10 what had the EU ever done for US they ask.
This is as stupid as this Monty Python sketch if you want my opinion.
 
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VulcanRaven

Member
Jan 7, 2018
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Yes it will. I voted no accidentally because the poll question was different than the title.
 
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Amiga

Member
Jul 8, 2020
555
906
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The EU as a trading block may collapse, but the EU has a political project, nah.
I think we integrated Poland and these other countries mainly so they didn't fall under Russian influence.

Poland and Hungary are throwing a fit because they know the good days of Free European money are over and they aren't happy about it.
The people in power grew Fat and rich by taking over all the Contract and now they are complaining that the people giving them money want to have some control over how it is used.

So yeah, apart from multiplying the GDP by 10 what had the EU ever done for US they ask.
This is as stupid as this Monty Python sketch if you want my opinion.
Why should Poland/Hungry be forced to submit to German immigration policy? why shouldn't Germany apply Polish policy in this subject?
 

Bluntman

Member
May 8, 2017
141
298
385
The EU as a trading block may collapse, but the EU has a political project, nah.
I think we integrated Poland and these other countries mainly so they didn't fall under Russian influence.

Poland and Hungary are throwing a fit because they know the good days of Free European money are over and they aren't happy about it.
The people in power grew Fat and rich by taking over all the Contract and now they are complaining that the people giving them money want to have some control over how it is used.

So yeah, apart from multiplying the GDP by 10 what had the EU ever done for US they ask.
This is as stupid as this Monty Python sketch if you want my opinion.
The good old "EU funds is a gift so shut up you peasants and bow before me" argument...........

The EU funds is not a gift, the EU founding documents never mention anywhere that some countries can blackmail and force their views on others, and we have every right to veto and fortunately our prime minister has such a big cock, he "dares" to use a tool which is fundamentally granted to him by the EU.
 
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EHuntingon

Gold Member
Jul 30, 2013
2,173
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ehuntington.org
I don't know if the EU will fall apart, but I think it should. Hungary should do what Hungary wants. Poland should do what Poland wants. France should do what France wants. None of the client states should be held to any of the other's wishes. National sovereignty, national populism, and national culturalism are the ways to keep a country and its population secure. I disagree with any system that breaks down borders, culture, and imposes an international, centralized will.

Edit: Spelling
 
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Woo-Fu

incest on the subway
Jan 2, 2007
17,339
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I'd expect it to endure, just in a less meaningful way as time goes by. Like NATO or the UN.
 

Alx

Member
Jan 22, 2007
19,060
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I don't have nearly enough understanding of the EU or its challenges to make an educated opinion. But I will say that any time an unelected, unaccountable bureaucracy eats shit, its a good thing... so fingers crossed I guess.
Just to clear up your knowledge of the EU institutions, saying that they're "unelected bureaucrats" is very far from the truth.
The European institutions are :
- European Council : group of all heads of states of the member states, so people elected by their population
- European Parliament : MPs are directly elected by the population
- European Commission : one member is chosen by each government and validated by the Parliament
- Council of the EU (yeah it sounds like the other one but it's not the same and it's stupid) : group of ministers from the governments of the members, so representative of local elections
- Court of Justice of the EU : members independently selected by member states.
- European Court of Auditors : members selected by the European Council

So in the end nothing really different from any other democratic institution, with its MPs, ministers or judges.
 
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Kenpachii

Member
Mar 23, 2018
5,952
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There was a story I saw recently about the Eastern nations in the EU.
Basically put, Poland and Hungary have blocked the EU budget via vetos. The package includes €750bn for a Covid recovery fund.

Why would Poland and Hungary block such a move? Surly access to this funding is in their beneficial interest? Well yes, if it was just funding shared between EU member states. However, this funding comes with a caveat. If this budget goes through, it is linked to the EU rule of law, something that Eastern nations are rightly uncomfortable with.

Polish Justice Minister Zbigniew Ziobro declared at a news conference Monday that “There will be no consent to this mechanism” and that such a mechanism would “radically limit Poland’s sovereignty.”

Poland and Hungary, as well as the Czech Republic have already gotten into trouble with the EU recently.

In April this year, the ECJ ruled that Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic broke EU law when they failed to give refuge to asylum seekers arriving in southern Europe.

Now this rule of law wants to ensure that these nations accept EU laws, which is why it is tied to this carrot of a Covid recovery package.

It's not surprising a nation like Poland, which has a history of being oppressed and ruled by foreign powers, would be against accepting this deal.

If a nation doesn't have a say in its own immigration policy, then can it really be called a sovereign, independent nation?

I'm not sure of the solution to the problem, but I could certainly see the Eastern bloc getting so sick of the EU that they just decided to leave it together. That, potentially could be very damaging to the EU. I'm not sure how it is in Italy at the moment, but I remember seeing early in the year people in Italy burning EU flags and a new, anti-EU party in that country has just cropped up (Italexit party).

Personal view. I voted Brexit, but I see the benefits of the EU as a trading bloc. I also enjoyed Freedom of Movement as without it, I would have never have met my wife. However, I voted to leave as I saw what the EU was becoming. I could see it slowly morphing into a unified federal state, which is something I couldn't support. To tell you the truth, I've changed a bit since 2016 and my views are slightly different, but that's for another, future thread.

So Gaf, what do you think? Do you think the EU is on the verge of total collapse, or is this just a blip?



This is the problem europe faces.

The south goes bankrupt the end. ( now is bankrupt ) This was before covid and now with covid its even worse.

How to solve this? massive money transfers from north to south to keep those failing country's that already fail for hundreds of years with budgets that always blow these country's up after a while because as northern country's tend to say "they are lazy as shit". This means all money the north has will be up for grabs by the south which the north will never agree on because it will basically be killing their own country's and cause for massive unstability.

In order to dodge this problem they created a different solution, a european bank that simple loans massive amounts of money on the credit score of northern european country's or any country that isn't south so that the south isn't going in eternal debt they can't get out of because there credit score is dog shit.

Problem here? your own credit score goes so total shit and you as country now have a shared dept with europe. Which basically is the first step to United states of europe and endless loaning like the US does.

So why is that bad? because u get massssssssssssive amounts of extra debt on your ass if you do got a somewhat stable country which results EU owning you now.

Why do northern countries want to stay at the table with southern country's and not let them explode? stability reasons. So they try to find ways to move through it without destabilizing everything in the meanwhile.

Why are eastern country's against it? they want the free money but do nothing for it. the same as the south. however the east actually provides use to the north for cheap labor to keep the north's factory's rolling so the north accepts it and just let them life there dream. In no way can or will the east leave europe its impossible.

If the EU blows up it will be northern country leaving and frankly the south will go bankrupt the next day with northern country's being overflown with southern refugee's. Which kinda removed the only other solution split europe up in northern and southern part which was on the table first but simple isn't realistic.

However now with covid things changes because they can put there bank loan system and rename it to covid rescue plan sounds better right? there you go.
 
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Kenpachii

Member
Mar 23, 2018
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Just to clear up your knowledge of the EU institutions, saying that they're "unelected bureaucrats" is very far from the truth.
The European institutions are :
- European Council : group of all heads of states of the member states, so people elected by their population
- European Parliament : MPs are directly elected by the population
- European Commission : one member is chosen by each government and validated by the Parliament
- Council of the EU (yeah it sounds like the other one but it's not the same and it's stupid) : group of ministers from the governments of the members, so representative of local elections
- Court of Justice of the EU : members independently selected by member states.
- European Court of Auditors : members selected by the European Council

So in the end nothing really different from any other democratic institution, with its MPs, ministers or judges.
Nobody knows any of them, nobody even knows any of these departments exists. Nobody even understands the EU. Because it doesn't represents any country in any way. And covid proved this again when EU simple stopped existing for half a year. Hell most of those people working there don't even understand there coleges because they don't speak the same fucking languages its a mess of diarea connected to each other to lobby themselves into golden houses.
 
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Taxexemption

Member
Oct 11, 2011
1,051
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905
This is the problem europe faces.

The south goes bankrupt the end. ( now is bankrupt ) This was before covid and now with covid its even worse.

How to solve this? massive money transfers from north to south to keep those failing country's that already fail for hundreds of years with budgets that always blow these country's up after a while because as northern country's tend to say "they are lazy as shit". This means all money the north has will be up for grabs by the south which the north will never agree on because it will basically be killing their own country's and cause for massive unstability.

In order to dodge this problem they created a different solution, a european bank that simple loans massive amounts of money on the credit score of northern european country's or any country that isn't south so that the south isn't going in eternal debt they can't get out of because there credit score is dog shit.

Problem here? your own credit score goes so total shit and you as country now have a shared dept with europe. Which basically is the first step to United states of europe and endless loaning like the US does.

So why is that bad? because u get massssssssssssive amounts of extra debt on your ass if you do got a somewhat stable country which results EU owning you now.

Why do northern countries want to stay at the table with southern country's and not let them explode? stability reasons. So they try to find ways to move through it without destabilizing everything in the meanwhile.

Why are eastern country's against it? they want the free money but do nothing for it. the same as the south. however the east actually provides use to the north for cheap labor to keep the north's factory's rolling so the north accepts it and just let them life there dream. In no way can or will the east leave europe its impossible.

If the EU blows up it will be northern country leaving and frankly the south will go bankrupt the next day with nothern country's being overflown with southern refugee's.
For Eastern European countries I really think it's less about the money and more about not wanting to be forced to take in refugees. There is no argument for taking in refugees. There are other stable countries where they speak the same language and have cultures that they can more easily adapt to. Each refugee you take is likely to be a burden on your country and cause cultural problems, and strife. It also erodes social trust.


If you are Poland or Hungary, why do you want a bunch of Muslims who are mad at the west in your country? Especially when they don't speak the language, and their languages are considered difficult to learn. Also, lets be frank, Eastern European culture is not easy to understand or adapt to for outsiders. It's more similar to Russian culture, a lot of people in my area particularly dislike Russians for cultural reasons.


If Russia had a war, and we needed to in my state accept a million Russian refugees, despite them being white there would be protests, people would be outraged. Probably a lot of leftists would say that it was a conspiracy to change the politics in my state, they might even say that it was somehow a plot to end abortion. There would be complaints about quality of life issues, there would be complaints about cultural differences, there would be fears of sophisticated organized crime developing. The Russian population in my state is pretty small, but there is huge prejudice against them.
 
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DeepBreath87

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Jun 15, 2019
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Just to clear up your knowledge of the EU institutions, saying that they're "unelected bureaucrats" is very far from the truth.
The European institutions are :
- European Council : group of all heads of states of the member states, so people elected by their population
- European Parliament : MPs are directly elected by the population
- European Commission : one member is chosen by each government and validated by the Parliament
- Council of the EU (yeah it sounds like the other one but it's not the same and it's stupid) : group of ministers from the governments of the members, so representative of local elections
- Court of Justice of the EU : members independently selected by member states.
- European Court of Auditors : members selected by the European Council

So in the end nothing really different from any other democratic institution, with its MPs, ministers or judges.
Thanks for that. I truly know nothing about European politics outside very light reading that is largely from the right’s perspective. So it’s good to have that information.
 

Alx

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Jan 22, 2007
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Nobody knows any of them, nobody even knows any of these departments exists.
People who care about the topic know about those. People who don't obviously know nothing of all that, but many of them are quick to repeat the "unelected bureaucrats" cliché about something that they know nothing about. But all it's only a google/wikipedia search away (not even mentioning the official EU web page where everything is explained, including all the topics, laws and decisions that are discussed in said institutions).
 

Amiga

Member
Jul 8, 2020
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Just to clear up your knowledge of the EU institutions, saying that they're "unelected bureaucrats" is very far from the truth.
The European institutions are :
- European Council : group of all heads of states of the member states, so people elected by their population
- European Parliament : MPs are directly elected by the population
- European Commission : one member is chosen by each government and validated by the Parliament
- Council of the EU (yeah it sounds like the other one but it's not the same and it's stupid) : group of ministers from the governments of the members, so representative of local elections
- Court of Justice of the EU : members independently selected by member states.
- European Court of Auditors : members selected by the European Council

So in the end nothing really different from any other democratic institution, with its MPs, ministers or judges.
German/French MPs who decide sovereign Polish policy are unelected by citizens of Poland.
 
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highrider

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washington d.c.
Europe will go to war (again) and drag everyone else into it (again) instead of admitting their utopian ideas failed (again).

When they start adding detachments of UN troops to deal with civil unrest, followed by a call for a "Peacekeeping EU force", you'll know the Clone Wars are on the way.

Yep. But they aren’t capable of waging war really, somehow Europe lost their balls.
 
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Kenpachii

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People who care about the topic know about those. People who don't obviously know nothing of all that, but many of them are quick to repeat the "unelected bureaucrats" cliché about something that they know nothing about. But all it's only a google/wikipedia search away (not even mentioning the official EU web page where everything is explained, including all the topics, laws and decisions that are discussed in said institutions).
Guy votes for his own government. Doesn't know what 90% of the party's represent or what people are even in his own party. he only knows 2 things he agrees with and that's for something or against something. he votes for it and calls it a day.

When u ask that guy if he knows who rules currently in his country all party's he couldn't say because there are multiple and he didn't bother following. if you ask him who the president of his country is he can say his name. If you ask him who any other minister is he won't be able to tell you unless they are involved in a currently ongoing scandal.

That's only for the second chamber. Now we have the first chamber elections. Ask the guy if he knows any of them his answer will be no. Ask him what he wants out of it. he wouldn't know because he doesn't even know what its for or that it even exists.

Now ask him about his local elections for his city( outside of a city nobody will probably even know any of the names of the people that represent them ), does he know even one single name? probably. Does he know what he or she stands for? probably to some extent. But does he know any on the second row after the main guys? probably not.

( what i am trying to say here is the futher away the less interesting things become and the EU is not far away its on a different planet entirely )

Now we move another layer down. Elections of europe.

Does he know a single name in europe that represents him? nope. Does he know a single fraction or a single anything in the EU or where it stands for? nope. Does he know anything about anything that got pushed through in europe? nope. Why not? nothing effects him what they do over there.

For example Europe can say we going to push more asylum seekers into your country. Does the guy care? nope. Why not? not there decision our own prime minister decides what happens or not in our country and if he agree's with it and the country disagree's its not getting done simple as that.

See how it works, not a single person in europe has any dam use by europe with elections because nothing affects them in any meaningful manner. if i want to not get asylum seekers in holland i will vote for wilders, nothing europe can do about it. Will i vote for somebody in europe so my vote and my country vote will be mixed with 300 million other people or how many are part of it and get a conclusion out of that, which is obviously rigged easily because absolute nobody trusts any of those elections even remotely? absolute zero chance.

Funny how a german is the ruler of europe not? jup funny indeed. And honestly i wouldn't be shocked if 90% of the people interviewed would say its merkel. Because whenever something happens its always german merkel with its lapdog france showing up to tell you what's up. EU president face is never ever shown anywhere here.

That's why nobody cares.

What the EU website says isn't interesting to people, what effects people is interesting to people and EU isn't part of it and the moment it is and they disagree with it its brexit.

The reality is the one with money rules and that's germany and that's exactly why merkel with any EU crisis is at the front with our little napoleon next towards it licking her balls at every turn to also feel important.

EU president has zero presence, zero power and zero meaning to people.

For eastern countries I really think it's less about the money and more about not wanting to be forced to take in refugees. There is no argument for taking in refugees. There are other stable countries where they speak the same language and have cultures that they can more easily adapt to. Each refugee you take is likely to be a burden on your country and cause cultural problems, and strife. It also erodes social trust.


If you are Poland or Hungary, why do you want a bunch of Muslims who are mad at the west in your country? Especially when they don't speak the language, and their languages are considered difficult to learn. Also, lets be frank, Eastern European culture is not easy to understand or adapt to for outsiders. It's more similar to Russian culture, a lot of people in my area particularly dislike Russians for cultural reasons.


If Russia had a war, and we needed to in my state accept a million Russian refugees, despite them being white there would be protests, people would be outraged. Probably a lot of leftists would say that it was a conspiracy to change the politics in my state, they might even say that it was somehow a plot to end abortion. There would be complaints about quality of life issues, there would be complaints about cultural differences, there would be fears of sophisticated organized crime developing. The Russian population in my state is pretty small, but there is huge prejudice against them.
Italy couldn't handle asylum seekers so they pushed them into main europe on trains because north didn't wanted to help them with it. They basically said fuck it. This resulted in a crisis that got pushed straight to the top agenda which all country's agreed towards in europe to absorb them and take them away from italy so the country wouldn't crumble under them. Poland only really had to take in 30k i believe a year which on a 38 million population is nothing but would prevent italy from collapsing ( also most of them would simple be rejected on top of it its just to process them really )

Nobody wanted them, but people did so in order to create a solution but then the east said fuck no. Which simple isn't a solution.

Why? to get right wing to vote for them and nothing else for there own reelections. Why do i say this? because the reality is pretty simple. The reason those refugee's walk to europe and not to south of africa or to russia or whatever eastern country is because no money to be gained. the moment u let those 30k people lose in poland they will all pick a train or bus and move into west europe directly. So the whole asylum part was never a issue. It's about bolstering their own popularity.
 
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Croatoan

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Jun 24, 2014
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Anyone ever think the germans kind of got a bit of what they wanted back in the forties with this EU thing?

If I was a sovereign nation I wouldn't join a "union" with the two time world war losers. Call me crazy but those folks will forever be sus. :messenger_medmask:
 
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Alx

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German/French MPs who decide sovereign Polish policy are unelected by citizens of Poland.
Poland has its own MPs voting on the policies. That's the point of a union, having representatives of all members voting on common measures. Do people in California complain that there are people in the US Senate not elected by Californian citizens ? Did you get to vote for/against each and every deputee in your own Parliament ? Obviously not, since you only vote for those representing your area. That's how most parliaments work.
 
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Amiga

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Jul 8, 2020
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Poland has its own MPs voting on the policies. That's the point of a union, having representatives of all members voting on common measures. Do people in California complain that there are people in the US Senate not elected by Californian citizens ?
All the time.

And the US was established as a union. EU states are independent for hundreds of years. outsiders undermining that independence is not what they signed in for. using economic coercion is not a democratic process. this is colonial era policy.