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[bishopcruz]

Gah, more of this Joel revisionist history. I would feel at least a little better about Abby if she wasn't part of a group of terrorists who had caused several towns to fall to bandits, murdered civilians, and were planning to MUIRDER a 14 year old girl on the off chance of a cure. Also, Dr. Jerry was a monster. Didn't even have the testicular fortitude to WAKE ELLIE UP and ask her because he was too scared she would say no and that might make Marlene not buy in. He was about to murder a girl, sorry anything Joel did was justifiable self defense in OUR world, in the funapocalypse? Get the fuck out of here .They knocked Joel out, stole his gear, didn't pay him what they owed, didn't even let him SEE Ellie, and told him he was lucky they hadn't shot him. In the game we have killed people for far less and so had they.

Now I get Abby wanting revenge, but she also KNEW that her dad was going to murder a girl. And she was fine with it. That starts her on the bad end of the moral event horizon right there. She tortured Joel for what looks to be hours, That's a hard thing for a player to get over. Had she been the daughter of one of his old victims from his bandit days, then fine. But I am sorry, paint Joel as a villain all you want he literally goes through the heroes journey in TLOU1. So no, knowing WHY Abby murdered Joel makes about as much difference to my as knowing why Thanos murdered his daughter. It gives context but not an iota of justification.

IF Abby had actually shown a bit of self reflection then maybe I could have come to like her more. But she doesn't. Hell I would have even taken a scene where she wonders if it was all worth it, Joel's death for everyone she loved and cared about. But nope. Who needs that when we have three days of padding to fill with nonsense. There were literally three times that I felt any sympathy for Abby at all and those were all in the last two hours of the game. Finding Owen, the letter to Owen in Santa Barbara, and her on the pole. Far too little, far too late.

 

[dcx4610]

Gah, more of this Joel revisionist history. I would feel at least a little better about Abby if she wasn't part of a group of terrorists who had caused several towns to fall to bandits, murdered civilians, and were planning to MUIRDER a 14 year old girl on the off chance of a cure. Also, Dr. Jerry was a monster. Didn't even have the testicular fortitude to WAKE ELLIE UP and ask her because he was too scared she would say no and that might make Marlene not buy in. He was about to murder a girl, sorry anything Joel did was justifiable self defense in OUR world, in the funapocalypse? Get the fuck out of here .They knocked Joel out, stole his gear, didn't pay him what they owed, didn't even let him SEE Ellie, and told him he was lucky they hadn't shot him. In the game we have killed people for far less and so had they.

Now I get Abby wanting revenge, but she also KNEW that her dad was going to murder a girl. And she was fine with it. That starts her on the bad end of the moral event horizon right there. She tortured Joel for what looks to be hours, That's a hard thing for a player to get over. Had she been the daughter of one of his old victims from his bandit days, then fine. But I am sorry, paint Joel as a villain all you want he literally goes through the heroes journey in TLOU1. So no, knowing WHY Abby murdered Joel makes about as much difference to my as knowing why Thanos murdered his daughter. It gives context but not an iota of justification.

IF Abby had actually shown a bit of self reflection then maybe I could have come to like her more. But she doesn't. Hell I would have even taken a scene where she wonders if it was all worth it, Joel's death for everyone she loved and cared about. But nope. Who needs that when we have three days of padding to fill with nonsense. There were literally three times that I felt any sympathy for Abby at all and those were all in the last two hours of the game. Finding Owen, the letter to Owen in Santa Barbara, and her on the pole. Far too little, far too late.

The Fireflies weren't going to murder Ellie. They were going to use Ellie's body to make a cure for all of civilization. It would have killed Ellie but she would have sacrificed her life to cure the infected and save humanity. Joel was just selfish and didn't want to lose Ellie. When Ellie finds out, she tells Joel that she can't forgive him. She was willing to die and it would have given her life purpose.

The entire game is about perspective. If you knew of a plot where someone was going to kill millions of people, is it murder to stop them? You are saving millions of lives for the cost of 1. It's a moral dilemma and I thought the game clearly showed that the Doctor and Marlene struggled with it but ultimately thought it was the right thing to do. Abby herself even says that if was her that had the cure, she'd want her Dad to do the operation. It's a sacrifice - not murder.

In Abby's eyes, not only did Joel murder her father, he made her an orphan, he cost humanity of a cure, destroyed countless lives because of his selfish action and robbed everyone of a future. In Joel's mind, it's justified because he's saving his surrogate daughter and maybe civilization isn't worth saving. Again - perspective.

 

[Heimdall_Xtreme]

Raiden was called a faggot for like 6 years straight until they turned him into a DARKNESS ninja.

Tell me more about how bad-ass was the lame ass Raiden that wasn't able to infiltrate properly and fall on his ass by stepping on some bird shit at the start of the game.
Raiden it's purposely lame after the switcheroo. During MGS2's launch the backlash by the fan base was pretty big.

 

[bishopcruz]

The Fireflies weren't going to murder Ellie. They were going to use Ellie's body to make a cure for all of civilization. It would have killed Ellie but she would have sacrificed her life to cure the infected and save humanity. Joel was just selfish and didn't want to lose Ellie. When Ellie finds out, she tells Joel that she can't forgive him. She was willing to die and it would have given her life purpose.

The entire game is about perspective. If you knew of a plot where someone was going to kill millions of people, is it murder to stop them? You are saving millions of lives for the cost of 1. It's a moral dilemma and I thought the game clearly showed that the Doctor and Marlene struggled with it but ultimately thought it was the right thing to do. Abby herself even says that if was her that had the cure, she'd want her Dad to do the operation. It's a sacrifice - not murder.

In Abby's eyes, not only did Joel murder her father, he made her an orphan, he cost humanity of a cure, destroyed countless lives because of his selfish action and robbed everyone of a future. In Joel's mind, it's justified because he's saving his surrogate daughter and maybe civilization isn't worth saving. Again - perspective.

No, they were going to murder her. They were going to murder her to make a cure for all of civilization, but without her consent, it is murder plain and simple. Unlawful, premeditated, murder. It's not hard to understand. Frame it however you want. Now you can argue that that moral sacrifice is worth the greater good. I disagree. Without her consent it is invalid. And before anyone starts, Joel did not steal her consent at that moment. The Fireflies already did, they made the decision FOR her, and Joel stopped them from murdering a child. Every single person who got in the way was accessory to murder, and he was well within any basic moral rights to stop them, with lethal force if necessary, and considering that the entire organization just threatened his life if he didn't leave and let the murder commence, it was pretty fucking necessary. And let us not forget, the great Dr. Jerry was waving a knife in Joel's face.

Look your idea works if THEY ASKED ELLIE, but they didn't. Of course, even if they asked her, then the real moral ambiguity comes in. Does Joel let her sacrifice herself for the chance at a cure. Is she old enough to make that choice? Is she in the right frame of mind to make that choice. That makes the question interesting. Of course with that question being asked, we lose the lie at the end of TLoU1 which I think is the real ambiguity. Was Joel right to lie?

The game may be about perspective, but Abby's perspective is far more immoral than Joel and Ellie's is. She works for the Wolves, and is one of the top people in their hierarchy. That means she has to be OK with the things they do, like murdering little girls who evangelize their signs, or people who were former FEDRA. Her group is fascistic on its face and they have let Seattle go to hell, destroyed most of the city in their constant fighting, and broken a truce for more land. She is known as one of their best enforcers and scar killers. She also tortured a man to death, for hours... and more importantly FOR PLEASURE. She shows zero self-reflection during her campaign. She felt bad that people died, but not once did she consider how she brought it on herself. Or how her father brought his fate on himself. In comparison, Ellie does do this. In fact she takes responsibility that isn't hers, she takes Joel's guilt on herself to attempt to shield others. Abby, not so much. Honestly the more context you get with Abby the worse she gets.

You could argue that by the very end of the game she is starting to turn a corner to be a better human being (not that it would be hard) but we don't actually see it happen.

 

[sol_bad]

Now as for Abby, I just never really bought into her story. How can you feel sympathetic for a father who was literally the one fighting to kill a 14 year old girl in her sleep for his precious cure? I would have gutted that mother fucker like a pig if he tried to kill my daughter in her sleep.

You'd do that to your own father or mother?
wow

 

[Inspector Q]

You'd do that to your own father or mother?
wow

I would kill a man who tried to kill my daughter in her sleep. Yes. Also, yes, that sentence was worded terribly, lol.

 

[Keihart]

 

[sol_bad]

I would kill a man who tried to kill my daughter in her sleep. Yes. Also, yes, that sentence was worded terribly, lol.

If your father was going to kill a 14 year old girl that you had never met or cared for to create a cure for humanity, you would gut your father like a pig?

 

[Tesseract]

abby sucks, long live joel

 

[Inspector Q]

If my father was going to kill my daughter in her sleep, yes, I would gut him like a pig. Is that surprising? If so, why?

But to actually bring this back to what actually happened in TLoU1, let me ask you a question.

If a random doctor was going to kill your daughter in her sleep you would let him?

Wow

 

[SlimySnake]

Weird phrasing in the title.

Abby is a shit character. They try and make you empathize with her, and they do it poorly. By the end you don't give a shit about her motives because her actions up until the very end are just heinous. Saving a few kids doesn't make up for her being a shitty person to her friends and doesn't excuse the actions she did. Which would have been fine for a villain, but Naught Dog tries to make you "understand" from her perspective and they have their heads so far up their own ass that they can't see why she's a shit-tier character.

I say all that too as a person that generally liked most of the game. It's the way the story is told and the lack of consistent characters from part 1 to 2 that annoy most people.

they couldve easily made her a more sympathetic character. they couldve made her funny. charming. they couldve made her Ellie 2.0. or they couldve made her Joel 2.0. You really think the guys who made tlou part 1 dont know how to make you empathize with a character? all of a sudden Neil became a poor writer?

No. Neil is too good of a writer to make you empathize with her. He side steps many mines here, and the restraint he shows by not making Abby super likeable IS admirable. Besides, making her likeable wouldve been super manipulative and who knows it wouldve probably been received poorly.

The idea isnt to make you understand from her perspective. Neil isnt trying to make you empathize with her, though he does give her some justification for her actions. The point of the game is to put YOU the players in a position where you are forced to play as her for half the game, and see if YOU can forgive her for Joel. If you can, great. If not, thats ok too. By the time, you take control of Ellie again and go back again for a revenge quest, you should've let go of your revenge quest even if Ellie doesnt. That's why the final battle works so well because it doesn't work well. You no longer have that lust for revenge (at least most of us didnt anyway) and you are no longer on Ellie's side. you pity Ellie for what she has become and that is the point.

Could Neil have made that point without making us play as Abby? I dont think so. I was all in on revenge at the half way point in the game despite seeing Ellie lose herself piece by piece. I think perspective change made us disconnect from Ellie's perspective and even though i didnt end up empathizing with Abby, by the end I was no longer onboard with Ellie's revenge quest.

The game's biggest ambition is to involve the player in ways even the first game didnt. in the first game, i bet everyone killed that doctor. i watched dozens of reaction vids and literally everyone kills the first doctor. here, the game makes things a bit more murky. its no longer white or black. if the game doesnt work for you, thats ok because thats kind of the point. At least, you weren't manipulated. Abby is abby. she is a shitty person. she is portrayed as a shitty person. and Neil should get props for that.

 

[GhostOfTsu]

The Fireflies weren't going to murder Ellie. They were going to use Ellie's body to make a cure for all of civilization. It would have killed Ellie but she would have sacrificed her life to cure the infected and save humanity. Joel was just selfish and didn't want to lose Ellie. When Ellie finds out, she tells Joel that she can't forgive him. She was willing to die and it would have given her life purpose.

The entire game is about perspective. If you knew of a plot where someone was going to kill millions of people, is it murder to stop them? You are saving millions of lives for the cost of 1. It's a moral dilemma and I thought the game clearly showed that the Doctor and Marlene struggled with it but ultimately thought it was the right thing to do. Abby herself even says that if was her that had the cure, she'd want her Dad to do the operation. It's a sacrifice - not murder.

In Abby's eyes, not only did Joel murder her father, he made her an orphan, he cost humanity of a cure, destroyed countless lives because of his selfish action and robbed everyone of a future. In Joel's mind, it's justified because he's saving his surrogate daughter and maybe civilization isn't worth saving. Again - perspective.

Here we go again with this revisionist BS. All of this was retconned into the sequel so they could have some backstory for pig Abby and you fell for it.

You are obviously just going by the fake flashbacks in TLOU2 with your "Ellie was willing to sacrifice herself" and "Abby herself was willing to die for the cure".

GTFO with your orphan Abby, that bitch didn't exist at all before and the Fireflies were a terrorist group.

And Ellie was not "willing to do die" in TLOU1, she was unconscious and they were going to operate and kill her without telling her or Joel. They wrote her as a psycho ungrateful bitch angry at Joel in the sequel. Awful.

Where do you think all the backlash is coming from? You think we need your explanations and perspective to understand this gringefest of a story?

It might work as a standalone game but it made no sense as the sequel. They wrote it this way to get rid of Joel ASAP and make it about Abby, the new Mother Teresa.

 

[sol_bad]

If my father was going to kill my daughter in her sleep, yes, I would gut him like a pig. Is that surprising? If so, why?

But to actually bring this back to what actually happened in TLoU1, let me ask you a question.

If a random doctor was going to kill your daughter in her sleep you would let him?

Wow

What you said
"Now as for Abby, I just never really bought into her story. How can you feel sympathetic for a father who was literally the one fighting to kill a 14 year old girl in her sleep for his precious cure? I would have gutted that mother fucker like a pig if he tried to kill my daughter in her sleep."

Should this all be tagged as spoilers?

Spoiler

You're talking about from Abby's perspective. You're saying you would kill your father/mother as you know them today if they were going to kill a 14 year old for a cure to mankind's disease. Why do you keep bringing up the point of a daughter? There is no daughter from Abby's perspective, just her father potentially creating a cure for all of mankind.

From Joel's perspective, yes, I would do anything to stop them from killing Ellie.
From Abby's perspective, depending on what info the Fireflies told her. Joel viciously, unnecessarily and cold heartedly murdered her father. This man who travelled across the country to bring Ellie to the Fireflies, who no doubt killed numerous infected and god knows how many other people, who could competently defend himself, decided to murder her father instead of just knocking him out. A surgeon who realistically did not pose a threat in an operating theatre.

Here we go again with this revisionist BS. All of this was retconned into the sequel so they could have some backstory for pig Abby and you fell for it.

You are obviously just going by the fake flashbacks in TLOU2 with your "Ellie was willing to sacrifice herself" and "Abby herself was willing to die for the cure".

GTFO with your orphan Abby, that bitch didn't exist at all before and the Fireflies were a terrorist group.

And Ellie was not "willing to do die" in TLOU1, she was unconscious and they were going to operate and kill her without telling her or Joel. They wrote her as a psycho ungrateful bitch angry at Joel in the sequel. Awful.

Where do you think all the backlash is coming from? You think we need your explanations and perspective to understand this gringefest of a story?

It might work as a standalone game but it made no sense as the sequel. They wrote it this way to get rid of Joel ASAP and make it about Abby, the new Mother Teresa.

The "fake flashbacks" in TLOU2 are not fake, it's the real story. As has been pointed out to you it's about perspective, if you aren't a part of the Fireflies than yeah they are terrorists. But if you are part of the Fireflies than you feel that you are doing what's best for the greater good. Same goes for FEDRA, WLF and the Scars, it's your own perspective as to whether these factions are good or bad.

Spoiler

In your fan-fiction reality you really think Ellie would be happy with what Joel did?

 

[A.Romero]

Here we go again with this revisionist BS. All of this was retconned into the sequel so they could have some backstory for pig Abby and you fell for it.

You are obviously just going by the fake flashbacks in TLOU2 with your "Ellie was willing to sacrifice herself" and "Abby herself was willing to die for the cure".

GTFO with your orphan Abby, that bitch didn't exist at all before and the Fireflies were a terrorist group.

And Ellie was not "willing to do die" in TLOU1, she was unconscious and they were going to operate and kill her without telling her or Joel. They wrote her as a psycho ungrateful bitch angry at Joel in the sequel. Awful.

Where do you think all the backlash is coming from? You think we need your explanations and perspective to understand this gringefest of a story?

It might work as a standalone game but it made no sense as the sequel. They wrote it this way to get rid of Joel ASAP and make it about Abby, the new Mother Teresa.

You should watch TLOU ending again. I did and reminded me of some stuff.

Joel kills the staff in the surgery room needlessly, he could have knocked them down. Afterwards, Ellie straight up asks him if he is lying about the cure (he said they ran some tests and it turns out it didn't work) and you can tell they wanted to portray Ellie feeling bad about that. She wanted her dead to mean something after what happened with Riley.

Joel wasn't a good guy. He never was. One of the themes of the story is that there is not pure good people in that world. Joel was a piece of shit from the time Sarah died and until he started loving Ellie. That's part of the character's arc in the first game.

It doesn't matter, though. Even if it was a retcon (it wasn't) they wanted to tell a story about revenge and I think they did. It's true that the fireflies weren't a bunch of good guys but Joel wasn't either and that's part of the point: each side romantices their own people and fail to see beyond their own perspective. Nobody takes the time to understand what other people are going through. Abby could have been the daughter of any random NPC dead by the hands of Joel and it would have still worked.

Abby unwillingly sacrifice everything despite Owen telling her not to do it. Ellie sacrificed her own mental sanity despite having people that actually cared for her. She had zero need to go to Washington but she did and I think it was mostly trying to redeem herself from judging and wasting Joel last few years on earth by giving him shit for pretty much anything. The last section showed that Ellie just wanted to die in what she thought was a meaningful dead. Ellie ended up losing her mind, just like Riley... It just took a longer time.

The only truly surprising thing is that the no former firefly confronted Joel before. It makes no sense that no disbanded Firefly ended up in Jackson just like them. Tommy was a known former Firefly and it seems everyone knew they were brothers and still it took them years to find them.

The approach in this game is something really fresh and needed. I can't say I'm fed up with traditional character dynamics but how many times can we play as the bastion of purity and good will? It's nice to be able to play as people with real flaws. Or even straight up delusional psychos with some kind of excuse to murder what's left of humanity instead of joining together and rebuild.

I don't think there is any true good people in that world anymore and it's no wonder. The infected are the least of their problems. People without the rule of law and any shed of decency get to run amok and fuck everyone else. I bet most people living in Jackson and old enough to know the old world had to kill someone just to survive. Most of them lost dear ones too. Who wouldn't have a distorted perspective in life by then?

 

[Inspector Q]

What you said
"Now as for Abby, I just never really bought into her story. How can you feel sympathetic for a father who was literally the one fighting to kill a 14 year old girl in her sleep for his precious cure? I would have gutted that mother fucker like a pig if he tried to kill my daughter in her sleep."

Should this all be tagged as spoilers?

Spoiler

You're talking about from Abby's perspective. You're saying you would kill your father/mother as you know them today if they were going to kill a 14 year old for a cure to mankind's disease. Why do you keep bringing up the point of a daughter? There is no daughter from Abby's perspective, just her father potentially creating a cure for all of mankind.

From Joel's perspective, yes, I would do anything to stop them from killing Ellie.
From Abby's perspective, depending on what info the Fireflies told her. Joel viciously, unnecessarily and cold heartedly murdered her father. This man who travelled across the country to bring Ellie to the Fireflies, who no doubt killed numerous infected and god knows how many other people, who could competently defend himself, decided to murder her father instead of just knocking him out. A surgeon who realistically did not pose a threat in an operating theatre.

The "fake flashbacks" in TLOU2 are not fake, it's the real story. As has been pointed out to you it's about perspective, if you aren't a part of the Fireflies than yeah they are terrorists. But if you are part of the Fireflies than you feel that you are doing what's best for the greater good. Same goes for FEDRA, WLF and the Scars, it's your own perspective as to whether these factions are good or bad.

Spoiler

In your fan-fiction reality you really think Ellie would be happy with what Joel did?

I think we are safe with posting spoilers since this whole thread is spoiler marked.

We definitely didn't see that Abby flashback the same way. Abby overhears the entire conversation with Marlene and her father. She knows that her father is trying to convince Marlene that it is worth sacrificing Ellie to create the cure. She even encourages him to do it, lol.

So the way I see it, she had 4 years to think about why her father died. Joel didn't just "viciously, unnecessarily and cold heartedly murder her father". She isn't that dumb, is she? She had 4 years to mull over the fact...hey, maybe this guy really cared about this girl and didn't want her head to be cut open with a scalpel in her sleep?

So she is either really dumb....or she just doesn't give a shit. Either of those definitely doesn't make me sympathetic to her cause. I understand her perspective, but that doesn't mean I agree with it. She should be smart enough to put 2 and 2 together and figure out what happened and why her father was killed by Joel. She had more than enough time to think this over.

To make matters even more fucked up, the dude even saves her life. But she still tortures and murders him.

 

[sol_bad]

I think we are safe with posting spoilers since this whole thread is spoiler marked.

We definitely didn't see that Abby flashback the same way. Abby overhears the entire conversation with Marlene and her father. She knows that her father is trying to convince Marlene that it is worth sacrificing Ellie to create the cure. She even encourages him to do it, lol.

So the way I see it, she had 4 years to think about why her father died. Joel didn't just "viciously, unnecessarily and cold heartedly murder her father". She isn't that dumb, is she? She had 4 years to mull over the fact...hey, maybe this guy really cared about this girl and didn't want her head to be cut open with a scalpel in her sleep?

So she is either really dumb....or she just doesn't give a shit. Either of those definitely doesn't make me sympathetic to her cause. I understand her perspective, but that doesn't mean I agree with it. She should be smart enough to put 2 and 2 together and figure out what happened and why her father was killed by Joel. She had more than enough time to think this over.

To make matters even more fucked up, the dude even saves her life. But she still tortures and murders him.

In our current world where there is law and order, people who have a loved one murdered still want the murderer sent to jail or put in the electric chair if they are found 5+ years later. It makes sense that in a world where there is no real law and order that the person who lost a loved one may choose to enact revenge upon the guilty.

 

[vpance]

I think we are safe with posting spoilers since this whole thread is spoiler marked.

We definitely didn't see that Abby flashback the same way. Abby overhears the entire conversation with Marlene and her father. She knows that her father is trying to convince Marlene that it is worth sacrificing Ellie to create the cure. She even encourages him to do it, lol.

So the way I see it, she had 4 years to think about why her father died. Joel didn't just "viciously, unnecessarily and cold heartedly murder her father". She isn't that dumb, is she? She had 4 years to mull over the fact...hey, maybe this guy really cared about this girl and didn't want her head to be cut open with a scalpel in her sleep?

So she is either really dumb....or she just doesn't give a shit. Either of those definitely doesn't make me sympathetic to her cause. I understand her perspective, but that doesn't mean I agree with it. She should be smart enough to put 2 and 2 together and figure out what happened and why her father was killed by Joel. She had more than enough time to think this over.

To make matters even more fucked up, the dude even saves her life. But she still tortures and murders him.

Abby can certainly be seen as delusional. She says to Ellie “we spared you and you wasted it”. Why would she not come for revenge against a total stranger who killed Joel with zero context and explanation?

 

[Bryank75]

I'd like to sit down with Abby and say this... (Harry = Abby)

 

[Heimdall_Xtreme]

 

[Inspector Q]

In our current world where there is law and order, people who have a loved one murdered still want the murderer sent to jail or put in the electric chair if they are found 5+ years later. It makes sense that in a world where there is no real law and order that the person who lost a loved one may choose to enact revenge upon the guilty.

The thing is that I can't really relate to her quest for vengeance because she knows what her father was about to do. And we, the audience, knows that she knows. Hell, she was even telling him that he was "doing the right thing". Also, she said something along the lines of, "if that was me, I would want you to do the operation." Easy to say that when it is not actually you.

All of the above actually caused me to resent her and her father even more than I already had prior to that flashback. I guess it's fine if you and others had a different reaction to that scene, but it definitely didn't work for me. Oh well.

Anyway, how high are the chances that Abby saves Ellie from the new "Fireflies" when Ellie inevitably offers herself up to them? Maybe then the two can finally exchange some meaningful dialogue?