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Does anyone else remember when Sony added that "gimmicky" second stick to the Playstation controller? (Dual Analogue)

jigglet

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This was before even the Dual Shock, for those who are unaware the Dual Shock 1 was not their first dual analogue controller.

I remember back then no one had really quite figured out cameras in 3D space so the jury was still out about how that all worked. At the time, doing it with a second stick wasn't exactly a foregone conclusion. In fact I don't even know if any games actually launched with the DA that used it in the way we commonly use it today.

I remember thinking...ok I get what that first stick is for, but that second one seems gimmicky as hell.
 
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01011001

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This was before even the Dual Shock, for those who are unaware the Dual Shock 1 was not their first dual analogue controller.

I remember back then no one had really quite figured out cameras in 3D space so the jury was still out about how that all worked. At the time, doing it with a second stick wasn't exactly a foregone conclusion. In fact I don't even know if any games actually launched with the DA that used it in the way we commonly use it today.

I remember thinking...ok I get what that first stick is for, but that second one seems gimmicky as hell.

yeah that topic came up in another thread already, the reason for 2 stick, we concluded was because of this thing here

the PlayStation Analog Joystick


the Dual Analog Controller had a specific mode (indicated by a green LED) to exactly emulate the 2 sticks on this flight stick for games that were compatible with it

here is what it looks like when a game was compatible with this, with the example of Wing Commander 4



notice the Analog Joystick Compatible icon on the bottom left
 
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jigglet

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I bought it and then shortly afterward they released the revised one with rumble and concave rubber tips (the first one had convex plastic I think)

The analogs also were really loose I remember.

I remember even when the first Dual Shock came out there still wasn't a compelling reason for it. I remember a friend showing me Ape Escape and saying see...see! This is why you need two sticks! And all I could think was...yeah but this is literally one game lol
 

jigglet

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yeah that topic came up in another thread already, the reason for 2 stick, we concluded was because of this thing here

the PlayStation Analog Joystick


the Dual Analog Controller had a specific mode (indicated by a green LED) to exactly emulate the 2 sticks on this flight stick for games that were compatible with it

Very interesting point. So it wasn't them being really visionary per se, they were just trying to emulate the closest example at the time.
 
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Animagic

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I remember even when the first Dual Shock came out there still wasn't a compelling reason for it. I remember a friend showing me Ape Escape and saying see...see! This is why you need two sticks! And all I could think was...yeah but this is literally one game lol
Air Combat was there... G Police? I don’t know how many games supported the larger two joystick controller that they felt they had to shrink it down. Such a weird feeling controller in the hand.
In comparison, when I first used the DualShock I thought “oh this is so much better.”

yeah I remember Ape Escape had a big push to use both analogs.
Other than that at the time it was about the sweet, sweet rumble
 
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01011001

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Very interesting point. So it wasn't them being really visionary per se, they were just trying to emulate the closest example at the time.

yeah they most likely wanted to give players a cheap way to play games compatible with this Flight Stick in a more natural way without the need for an expensive and big flight stick.

the left stick was then of course used for 3D movement by many developers, but it took a long time until the right stick was actually used by anyone.

I bought it and then shortly afterward they released the revised one with rumble and concave rubber tips (the first one had convex plastic I think)

The analogs also were really loose I remember.

fun fact, the japanese version of the Dual Analog controller had rumble. they didn't implement it in the west for cost reasons I guess
the Dual Analog controller was actually the better controller IMO. due to its larger, more ergonomic handles and concave sticks. too bad they gimped the western version
 
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Krappadizzle

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I wanted a dualshock simply for MGS and Ape Escape. Still stuck to the d-pad for most PS1 games, but always used the rumble when available.
 
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jigglet

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yeah they most likely wanted to give players a cheap way to play games compatible with this Flight Stick in a more natural way without the need for an expensive and big flight stick.

Which is why the first version was an optional extra and not a pack in, cause it was too niche. Why add all that extra cost to a controller that only benefits one genre? And a niche genre at that?

If it was their first attempt at a default analogue controller, they probably wouldn't have coughed up the extra cost of a second stick. However when it came to upgrading the controller to analogue, they probably had the existing mold anyway and said ok sure why not just reuse this.

My point is: dual shock setting the standard was probably more coincidental and caused by cost cutting rather than visionary hardware design lol

Funny to think about it really.
 
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01011001

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Which is why the first version was an optional extra and not a pack in, cause it was too niche. Why add all that extra cost to a controller that only benefits one genre? And a niche genre at that?

If it was their first attempt at a default analogue controller, they probably wouldn't have coughed up the extra cost of a second stick. However when it came to upgrading the controller to analogue, they probably had the existing mold anyway and said ok sure why not just reuse this.

My point is: dual shock setting the standard was probably more coincidental and caused by cost cutting rather than visionary hardware design lol

Funny to think about it really.

yeah most likely it was an accident. and Sega apparently didn't believe in 2 sticks either lol, given that they released the Dreamcast with a single stick controller. (they planned a dual analog controller to be released later, but the Dreamcast died before that ever happened sadly)

I think Nintendo's diamond shaped buttons on the SNES was also more accident than revolutionary design. they simply doubled the face buttons. they used the GameBoy layout as the inspiration, then just put another set of buttons in the same orientation above A and B lol
and now that's the standard everywhere
 
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godhandiscen

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IIRC Nintendo were the first to introduce the concept of a set of controls dedicated to the camera in 3D environments with the C buttons on the right of the N64 pad.

I remember that when the first dual analog controllers from Sony showed up, most kids already knew how to use them thanks to Mario 64.

Sony refined the concept, and their design proved to be more versatile, but I feel that without Nintendo, the concept would not have been as popular.
 
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ShadowLag

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Turns out, there are people smarter than us out there that see the need/potential for new features in tech, while others continue to ridicule them. If it were up to the people constantly crying "gimmick", we'd still be playing NES on CRT TVs at 320x240. Some people can't fathom the concept that technology is often iterative.
 
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01011001

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IIRC Nintendo were the first to introduce the concept of a set of controls dedicated to the camera in 3D environments with the C buttons on the right.

I remember that when the first dual analog controllers from Sony showed up, most kids already knew how to use them thanks to Mario 64.

Sony refined the concept, and their design proved to be more versatile, but I feel that without Nintendo, the concept would not have been as popular.

almost no developer actually used the right stick like that at first tho. even games with controllable cameras and analog support often had the camera controls bound to the shoulder buttons.
Soul Reaver for example has full analog movement support, but the camera is still controlled with R2 and L2.

it took a while until developers actually wrapped their heads around the concept of a camera stick
 

godhandiscen

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almost no developer actually used the right stick like that at first tho. even games with controllable cameras and analog support often had the camera controls bound to the shoulder buttons.
Soul Reaver for example has full analog movement support, but the camera is still controlled with R2 and L2.

it took a while until developers actually wrapped their heads around the concept of a camera stick

Soul Reaver didn’t use the stick for the camera because it would fragment the user experience. Over half the user base didn’t have a controller with two sticks. I got my first one for the PS1 in 1999 I think.

In the N64 however the concept was widely used from the get go.
 
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jigglet

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Turns out, there are people smarter than us out there that see the need/potential for new features in tech, while others continue to ridicule them. If it were up to the people constantly crying "gimmick", we'd still be playing NES on CRT TVs at 320x240. Some people can't fathom the concept that technology is often iterative.

Let's not fanboy this up. The truth is Sony themselves didn't know what to do with it, and has been pointed out in this thread, it was likely coincidence rather than visionary thinking that lead to it becoming the defacto standard.
 
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01011001

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Sould Reaver didn’t use the stick for the camera because it would fragment the user experience. Over half the user base didn’t have a controller with two sticks. I got my first one for the PS1 in 1999 I think.

well that was the case for almost every game. the right stick on PS1 was only really used by games that were designed for the Analog Joystick (Mech sims, flight sims, space sims etc.) only at the very end of the PS1's lifespan did games start to use the right stick in a way that it's used today or the way N64 C buttons were used.

so it wasn't as obvious to many as you claimed.
 

godhandiscen

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Let's not fanboy this up. The truth is Sony themselves didn't know what to do with it, and has been pointed out in this thread, it was likely coincidence rather than visionary thinking that lead to it becoming the defacto standard.
Sony did understand that the right stick was for camera controls from the get go though. After Ape Ecape, Spyro and Medievil used it.
 
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godhandiscen

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well that was the case for almost every game. the right stick on PS1 was only really used by games that were designed for the Analog Joystick (Mech sims, flight sims, space sims etc.) only at the very end of the PS1's lifespan did games start to use the right stick in a way that it's used today or the way N64 C buttons were used.

so it wasn't as obvious to many as you claimed.
I guess it wasn’t as obvious. I was also very into video game culture back then, so probably it was obvious to me because I read it on magazines or what not.
 
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jigglet

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Sony did understand that the right stick was for camera controls from the get go though. After Ape Ecape, Spyro and Medievil used it.

I don't know, games that were released 18-24 months later? Remember back then dev times were 12-18 months. I find it hard to believe this is what Sony had in their minds at the time.
 

ShadowLag

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Let's not fanboy this up. The truth is Sony themselves didn't know what to do with it, and has been pointed out in this thread, it was likely coincidence rather than visionary thinking that lead to it becoming the defacto standard.

Not a fanboy by any means, I'm speaking in a more general sense. I was pointing out that for every invention that ultimately leads to industry-wide adoption, there is always, always a legion of people that for some reason hate new things and need to call them gimmicks. Indeed, Sony is very rarely on the innovation boat!
 
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jigglet

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Not a fanboy by any means, I'm speaking in a more general sense. I was ponting out that for every invention that ultimately leads to industry-wide adoption, there is always, always a legion of people that for some reason hate new things and need to call them gimmicks. Indeed, Sony is very rarely on the innovation boat!

Yes I agree in a general sense. That's why I also hate it when anyone uses the word "gimmick" prematurely.

I just don't want this to become a fanboy war thread :) I find the dual analogue an interesting bit of history and just want to focus on that
 

fersnake

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IIRC Nintendo were the first to introduce the concept of a set of controls dedicated to the camera in 3D environments with the C buttons on the right of the N64 pad.

I remember that when the first dual analog controllers from Sony showed up, most kids already knew how to use them thanks to Mario 64.

Sony refined the concept, and their design proved to be more versatile, but I feel that without Nintendo, the concept would not have been as popular.
Nintendo did it first?, nobody can make something cuz nintendo LOL
 
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Trimesh

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I bought it and then shortly afterward they released the revised one with rumble and concave rubber tips (the first one had convex plastic I think)

The analogs also were really loose I remember.

Other way around - the original Dual Analog controller had concave finger cups and they changed to convex with the Dual Shock. I honestly always thought this was a stupid and regressive move. The Japanese version of the Dual Analog controller also had vibration while the US version didn't (presumably due to the Immersion patent - another in a long line of absurd and overbroad patents that would be rejected pretty much anywhere else, but ended up getting issued in the US).
 
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DJ Shalad

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I feel that without Nintendo, the concept would not have been as popular.

Technically speaking, Atari invented it in the 70s and the Neo Geo CD pad had a "stick" too early 90s.



 

Trimesh

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Technically speaking, Atari invented it in the 70s and the Neo Geo CD pad had a "stick" too early 90s.

That really doesn't count - it's an 8-way digital control with microswitches and not analog. It did work really nicely, especially for fighting games, though. (About the Neo-Geo CD)
 
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01011001

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Technically speaking, Atari invented it in the 70s and the Neo Geo CD pad had a "stick" too early 90s.




this stick is not analog tho. this is a digital stick that emulates sticks on an arcade machine or arcade sticks.

flight sticks were the first analog sticks is my guess, although I think some of the Gen 2 consoles had analog sticks that usually weren't used in any analog fashion by any games tho.
 
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ShadowLag

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Nintendo did it first?, nobody can make something cuz nintendo LOL

It's pretty cool that Goldeneye had a dual analog control option using 2 controllers, this guy has a great video on it:



Goldeneye was released a mere 2 days before the DualShock 1, it makes you wonder if Rare was keeping an eye on Sony's moves, or if it was the other way around!
 
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01011001

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It's pretty cool that Goldeneye had a dual analog control option using 2 controllers, this guy has a great video on it:



Goldeneye was released a mere 2 days before the DualShock 1, it makes you wonder if Rare was keeping an eye on Sony's moves, or if it was the other way around!

a way more sensical option is the 1.2 option tho, where you use the Dpad for movement and the stick for camera. the 2.2 option is a funny little quirk but entirely useless for anyone who actually wants to play somewhat comfortably lol
 
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01011001

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I only remembering them removing the rumble feature and replacing it with laggy motion sense earning it the nickname The Sucksaxis Controller.

they only removed it because of a patent dispute which made it so that Sony couldn't use rumble motors of that style anymore. they also released PS2 controllers without rumble at the same time that weren't called DualShock 2, they were simply called "Analog Controller". SCPH-10520 is the model number if people are interested



but of course they couldn't come across as weak and so they said the official reason is because rumble is a "last gen feature" xD which is to this day the funniest excuse a company ever gave to cut a feature lol
 
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Magic Carpet

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I played "Descent" with the original dual analog controller. I still have the game and controller in my basement.
I love telling the story about the days before mouse look. I played through Descent with all my fingers on a keyboard Only.

It is interesting to see how the second analog stick matured over the years.
 
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SirTerry-T

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Technically speaking, Atari invented it in the 70s and the Neo Geo CD pad had a "stick" too early 90s.





The Vectrex (1982) had a self centring analogue stick.
 

AGRacing

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I love telling the story about the days before mouse look. I played through Descent with all my fingers on a keyboard Only.

It is interesting to see how the second analog stick matured over the years.
I had a long history with Descent. I absolutely loved the game. Played on PC keyboard - then invested in a Microsoft 3D sidewinder joystick... and of course also had a copy on Playstation.

The Playstation version had colored "lighting" where the laser fire would light up the surrounding walls. I had friends who really liked Descent as well and we managed to play via link cable a few times.

Those were great days.
 
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Manji Uzuki

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I still have my PS dual analogue controller. It doesn't have the rumble but really like it as its much more ergonomic than the dual shock. Also is one of my few controllers from the original PS and PS2 that still works well 💪
 

Dream-Knife

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a way more sensical option is the 1.2 option tho, where you use the Dpad for movement and the stick for camera. the 2.2 option is a funny little quirk but entirely useless for anyone who actually wants to play somewhat comfortably lol
Idk why, but I can't use the D pad with 1.2. I have to use the C buttons. D pad makes more sense though.
 

Duchess

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The dual analog sticks on the PS1 was probably one of the greatest innovations in controller tech ever. It's just so natural to use.

I'm still amused by the Gamespot's review of the Alien Resurrection:

The game's control setup is its most terrifying element. The left analog stick moves you forward, back, and strafes right and left, while the right analog stick turns you and can be used to look up and down.

Yep, that control scheme that is used by literally every FPS that followed. Knowing they wrote that probably still keeps the reviewer awake at night ...
 

jigglet

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Yep, that control scheme that is used by literally every FPS that followed. Knowing they wrote that probably still keeps the reviewer awake at night ...

It's funny but you also have to remember that Goldeneye was the biggest FPS in the world that many had sunk thousands of hours into. That was the defacto standard and dual analogue was a huge shift from it.
 

KaiserBecks

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It's funny but you also have to remember that Goldeneye was the biggest FPS in the world that many had sunk thousands of hours into. That was the defacto standard and dual analogue was a huge shift from it.
GoldenEye pretty much emulated PC controls (wasd + mouse). What‘s real funny is that it had an optional control scheme that used two analog sticks. For that you had to use 2 Controllers though.
 
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Holammer

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Got myself one for Ape Escape where it worked great, can't remember anyone dismissing it as a gimmick.
The N64 controller however was the true gimmick and an evolutionary dead end, like most of Nintendo's controllers. While the Dual shock like a crocodile or shark remains largely unchanged over the
eons.
 
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Matt_Fox

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I just wish both Sony and Microsoft would add rear paddle buttons as standard to their controllers.

They already exist in a sort of pointless halfway house on some pads (like the Elite), in that the paddles just replicate face buttons but cant be mapped to new functions.

Can you imagine how much better and more complex RPGs, Strategy games, MMORPGs etc could be with four additional buttons - not having to constantly break the game up by opening menus. Being able to do much more in-game. It would really help console games get closer in parity with PC mouse/keyboard.
 

93xfan

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I bought the dual analog controller first and then the dual shock when that came out. Was really hoping for games that had as much nuance to the movement as Mario 64. Still was a worthwhile purchase