Does Islam inherently oppress women?

[Two Words]

I'm atheist and generally don't like the idea of religion. I don't go around putting people down for their religion or anything like that though. I grew up with the understanding that Islam requires women to cover themselves (with arguments of how much) and require a man to play a leadership role in their lives. I've had people say that isn't entirely the case and people say that it is. If it is a part of Islam inherently (and not something that those with Islamic faith simply push) then I have trouble understanding how some people outside of the faith defend it. I ask this question publicly because it's something I think others might wonder as well. So when it comes down to it, is it truly Islam oppressing women or is Islam being used as a tool to do so by others?

 

[Shadow_Lord]

This will end well.

 

[Mushroomer25]

I feel like any religion can be used as a tool of oppression, if the governing structure of said religion wants it to do so.

 

[bobito]

Option b) Islam being used as a tool to do so by others

 

[Breraa]

No.

Islam introduced Women's rights while Europe was still in it's dark ages burning and drowning women for being witches.

 

[Switch Back 9]

This will end well.

I think he put the question forward in a decent way, I'm sure he'll get some fair answers.

 

[Two Words]

So then where did this hijab/burka stuff originate from, for example?

 

[John Kowalski]

Enforcing strict clothing laws is definitely oppressive but isn't that a relatively radical and recent thing? It strikes me as a more political/dictatorial thing than necessarily religious.

Then again religion is the opium yadda yadda so drawing a line can't be that simple.

 

[Fusebox]

Well at the very least it'd be damn tough to try and argue that it empowers them in any way.

 

[dorkkaos]

Any religion or belief can be used as a tool to oppress or put down by gender, belief, race, etc.

Militants atheists put down people who are religious or spiritual. That's just how some people are.

 

[Oppo]

Any religion or belief can be used as a tool to oppress or put down by gender, belief, race, etc.

Militants atheists put down people who are religious or spiritual. That's just how some people are.

well maybe but "put down" verbally is a bit different that, say, not being able to drive a car in public

 

[marrec]

Inasmuch as any other religion does yes. Orthodox Judaism is in many ways the most oppressive to women practicing and certain sects of christianity are almost as strict in dress and power available.

And we all know how Atheists/neo-Libertarians treat women.

What I'm saying is, society oppresses women.

 

[HiredN00bs]

Many religious precepts are vague enough that they can be sufficiently manipulated to meet the needs of the adherents as individuals and groups. So, sexism can be justified, and so can equality. The problem isn't whether a religion teaches ignorant things, because they all do, all the time. The problem is the lack of empathy and rationality that inevitably comes with invoking an appeal to divinity to justify an action.

Inasmuch as any other religion does yes. Orthodox Judaism is in many ways the most oppressive to women practicing and certain sects of christianity are almost as strict in dress and power available.

And we all know how Atheists/neo-Libertarians treat women.

What I'm saying is, society oppresses women.

Atheism isn't a belief or a religion. It's the lack of belief in any gods.

And you're right. The religious texts of Judaism and Christianity are sexist against women. The majority of those religions' adherents follow reformed rulesets.

 

[Two Words]

Any religion or belief can be used as a tool to oppress or put down by gender, belief, race, etc.

Militants atheists put down people who are religious or spiritual. That's just how some people are.

Right. But things like the 10 commandments are integral to Christianity, for example. You wouldn't say it was a tool since it is fundamental to Christianity. I'm trying to figure out where Islam and women oppression lands.

 

[RustyNails]

So then where did this hijab/burka stuff originate from, for example?

Covering your head has been in the region for long time, and is still prevalent in places. Google traditional Indian women farmers/villagers.

 

[Astral/H3X]

So then where did this hijab/burka stuff originate from, for example?

This wasn't always the case. I'm a bit muddy, but IIRC, the hijab and burka came with the radicalists that pulled the middle east back into the dark ages. The islamic states used to be first world powers by a pretty good margin, then for whatever reason (Again super muddy, may be misremembering things), radicalists took over and basically said "Fuck progress it's unholy we need to go back to the dark ages", and the Hijab was part of that massive regression.

Please feel free to correct me on anything I'm wrong about. I'm basically firing from the hip here.

 

[Oppo]

And we all know how Atheists/neo-Libertarians treat women.

gamergate / redpill are hardly good atheist examples, cmon that's a cheap shot

 

[kittenbreath]

I've had people say that isn't entirely the case and people say that it is.

Religion in a nutshell.

All religions have oppressive elements, but very few religious people practice the tenets of their faith strictly and without compromise.

 

[egruntz]

What I'm saying is, society oppresses women.

Pretty much the answer. Religions that stem out of society's customs and traditional values will simply uphold those same principles.

 

[ZhugeEX]

Perhaps it would be better directing this question at a Muslim scholar rather than a public member forum with a tiny Muslim minority.

This thread already has completely different answers in it.

 

[Hands of Stone]

This wasn't always the case. I'm a bit muddy, but IIRC, the hijab and burka came with the radicalists that pulled the middle east back into the dark ages. The islamic states used to be first world powers by a pretty good margin, then for whatever reason (Again super muddy, may be misremembering things), radicalists took over and basically said "Fuck progress it's unholy we need to go back to the dark ages", and the Hijab was part of that massive regression.

Please feel free to correct me on anything I'm wrong about. I'm basically firing from the hip here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TX4RK8bj2W0

 

[Red Liquorice]

No.

Islam introduced Women's rights while Europe was still in it's dark ages burning and drowning women for being witches.

But there's been a few changes since then in both parts of the world.

 

[Tagyhag]

Like other religions, it depends on what the person gets from the script. People will twist religions to their liking while ignoring everything else.

 

[Zoned]

Any religion or belief can be used as a tool to oppress or put down by gender, belief, race, etc.

Militants atheists put down people who are religious or spiritual. That's just how some people are.

That's no way comparable to apostasy leading to death or women being treated as a commodity.

 

[John Kowalski]

gamergate / redpill are hardly good atheist examples, cmon that's a cheap shot

He's making the point that misogyny can and does manifest across the whole spectrum, which suggest an indirect relationship between religion and misogyny, meaning that you can't predict a less or more religious ideology to be less or more misogynistic.

 

[jchap]

In terms of populations affected by fundamentalist rules, islam is current the most oppressive. Hopefully it changes for the better with future generations.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

Pretty much the answer. Religions that stem out of society's customs and traditional values will simply uphold those same principles.

Not entirely. Secular law has been great at slowly removing these traditions which is where a lot of these changes come from.

 

[Schweinehund]

It's been a long time since I did my (shallow) report on Islam but iirc the Hijab is required & women aren't allowed to be alone with any other man but their husband.

 

[Fusebox]

Any religion or belief can be used as a tool to oppress or put down by gender, belief, race, etc.

Militants atheists put down people who are religious or spiritual. That's just how some people are.

Inasmuch as any other religion does yes. Orthodox Judaism is in many ways the most oppressive to women practicing and certain sects of christianity are almost as strict in dress and power available.

And we all know how Atheists/neo-Libertarians treat women.

What I'm saying is, society oppresses women.

Yeah, as an atheist I make sure to spend a lot of time trying to prevent women from driving and making sure they cover their face.

:/

Look I get there's this whole dipshit atheist-gamer-mens-rights subsection but the idea that atheism has some kind of monopoly (or any kind of statistical presence) on treating women badly is just really shitty discourse of the most unhelpful kind.

 

[Angelus Errare]

society in general oppresses women because societies contrary to populary belief don't exist in bubbles where the past generation has no affect on the present and future generations.

Religion makes it easier to do so but even without it women would still be oppressed. Point in case, Japan is largely lacking in religion and yet women are still oppressed there. You can argue oppression olympics if it makes you feel better but it's the truth.

Societies across the world since the dawn of time worked under the impression/belief that men are superior to women and that women are here for pleasure and to provide offspring. These beliefs carry on throughout the generation manifesting itself in laws, religious text and overall treatment.

America is based on separation of church and state and we still treated/treat women like shit.

 

[Zoned]

Pretty much the answer. Religions that stem out of society's customs and traditional values will simply uphold those same principles.

That's not true at all. Especially places where law is separated from religion.

 

[Mecha]

Perhaps it would be better directing this question at a Muslim scholar rather than a public member forum with a tiny Muslim minority.

This thread already has completely different answers in it.

Why Google search and find a reputable Muslim scholars answer to the subject when gaf already has such a large group of experts on Islam and religion.

 

[EightBitNate]

Come from a large Muslim family. The answer is yes.

It's not a strong "yes" though. My family is pretty relaxed with religion, so nothing was forced on the women too much. If she wanted to cover her head, that's her decision and we support it, but if not then there's no point in making her feel bad about it. At the end of the day, it's her life. If she's comfortable doing it, then go right ahead.

On the other hand, Muslims are overprotective of their daughters. Protective of the boys, yes, but it's moreso with females. My sister was free to choose whichever University she wanted to, the same as I was. But I had male Muslim friends whose families allowed them to study wherever, whereas the daughters were forced to live at home and commute. I never thought that part was fair.

They maybe oppressed, but at the end of the day, I think most of the Muslims women I've met are extremely comfortable with the religion and have learned to accept the overprotectiveness of their families. Maybe it's because they grew up in homes where it was expected, but I see no reason to try and "set them free" if they're fine with they have things.

Granted, this is all coming from someone who lives in the U.S. I'm sure the way some other countries treat women is much different.

And you guys, I think too many people are afraid of being called Islamaphobic. There are holes in the religion, just like any other. Islam definitely treats women unfairly.

Or as some others have said, it's mostly a culture thing. There's no part in the Koran that prohibits women from having freedoms from what I know.

 

[G.O.O.]

It's more customs and social norms. I think four of the five biggest muslim countries have been ruled by an elected woman. This is still to be debated for many people in the West.

 

[DontBeThatGuy]

Give Fundamentalist power, and watch the garbage rise to the top.

 

[The Technomancer]

I would say yes..., but on an institutional level and so did Christianity. Obviously there are Islamic families that don't oppress their women.
Islam should be held accountable for all of the institutional oppression, including against women, dealt out in its name, but that isn't a call for it to be eradicated, its a call for it to evolve

 

[Subpar Spatula]

society in general oppresses women because societies contrary to populary belief don't exist in bubbles where the past generation has no affect on the present and future generations.

Religion makes it easier to do so but even without it women would still be oppressed. Point in case, Japan is largely lacking in religion and yet women are still oppressed there. You can argue oppression olympics if it makes you feel better but it's the truth.

Societies across the world since the dawn of time worked under the impression/belief that men are superior to women and that women are here for pleasure and to provide offspring. These beliefs carry on throughout the generation manifesting itself in laws, religious text and overall treatment.

America is based on separation of church and state and we still treated/treat women like shit.

There's momentum to have policies changed in secular societies like America. The amount of progressive change in religious text is, well, pretty small. Yes. Society does oppress women but the ones centered around religion or tradition don't seem keen on changing those any time soon.

 

[John Rabbit]

Yeah, as an atheist I make sure to spend a lot of time trying to prevent women from driving and making sure they cover their face.

:/

Look I get there's this whole dipshit atheist-gamer-mens-rights subsection but the idea that atheism has some kind of monopoly (or any kind of statistical presence) on treating women badly is just really shitty discourse of the most unhelpful kind.

literally neither of the posts you quoted communicates this in any way. you're shooting at nothing, here.

 

[RustyNails]

This wasn't always the case. I'm a bit muddy, but IIRC, the hijab and burka came with the radicalists that pulled the middle east back into the dark ages. The islamic states used to be first world powers by a pretty good margin, then for whatever reason (Again super muddy, may be misremembering things), radicalists took over and basically said "Fuck progress it's unholy we need to go back to the dark ages", and the Hijab was part of that massive regression.

Please feel free to correct me on anything I'm wrong about. I'm basically firing from the hip here.

In my reading, Burqa and Hijab was between a believer and God. The Rashidun Caliphate (the first Caliphate, deemed righteous) never to my knowledge had a dress code. Hijab is an idea. It's not the scarf or the veil. Even men are required to observe hijab, which is not to stare at women and "lower their gaze".

 

[Red Liquorice]

Come from a large Muslim family. The answer is yes.

It's not a strong "yes" though. My family is pretty relaxed with religion, so nothing was forced on the women too much. If she wanted to cover her head, that's her decision and we support it, but if not then there's no point in making her feel bad about it. At the end of the day, it's her life. If she's comfortable doing it, then go right ahead.

On the other hand, Muslims are overprotective of their daughters. Protective of the boys, yes, but it's moreso with females. My sister was free to choose whichever University she wanted to, the same as I was. But I had male Muslim friends whose families allowed them to study wherever, whereas the daughters were forced to live at home and commute. I never thought that part was fair.

They maybe oppressed, but at the end of the day, I think most of the Muslims women I've met are extremely comfortable with the religion and have learned to accept the overprotectiveness of their families. Maybe it's because they grew up in homes where it was expected, but I see no reason to try and "set them free" if they're fine with they have things.

Granted, this is all coming from someone who lives in the U.S. I'm sure the way some other countries treat women is much different.

And you guys, I think too many people are afraid of being called Islamaphobic. There are holes in the religion, just like any other. Islam definitely treats women unfairly.

Or as some others have said, it's mostly a culture thing. There's no part in the Koran that prohibits women from having freedoms from what I know.

I think this can easily change in a few decades in more developed Islamic countries. It's not that far away from Western values of chastity up to say the Victorian era. I think social change is already happening swiftly.

 

[EightBitNate]

I think this can easily change in a few decades in more developed Islamic countries. It's not that far away from Western values of chastity up to say the Victorian era. I think social change is already happening swiftly.

Yeah definitely. Even just the morals from grandparents, to my parents, to me and my siblings are all much different.

 

[Zoned]

I would say yes..., but on an institutional level and so did Christianity. Obviously there are Islamic families that don't oppress their women.
Islam should be held accountable for all of the institutional oppression, including against women, dealt out in its name, but that isn't a call for it to be eradicated, its a call for it to evolve

The thing is religion don't evolve. Words written in the text have to be taken literally. It's not changeable. Only thing that can change here is that people stop taking things literally in the book and instead start using some common sense.

 

[MagnaderAlpha]

I feel like any religion can be used as a tool of oppression, if the governing structure of said religion wants it to do so.

Any "thing"(belief, idea, concept, trend, group of association, etc) can be used as a tool of oppression. Get enough assholes together that believe in one sort of thing and they'll use that thing as a justification to act like assholes and pick on those who are "not" like them. Every group in the world has it's extremists that are the loudest, that go full into an extreme view that they lose all source of human tenderness and understanding. They basically become a living "ideal" with nothing else of worth to them than JUST that. That's as good as being a walking shell of a person, no real life or sense of self. A true zombie of culture/religion/trend.

 

[John Rabbit]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TX4RK8bj2W0

the idea of that the radicalized treatment of women in the Middle East has been a more recent (latter 20th century) development is something i've just recently been exposed to, thanks for sharing this.

it was this image of a supposedly Iranian woman in the 1960s that started this process for me:

 

[DiipuSurotu]

Atheism isn't a belief or a religion. It's the lack of belief in any gods.

Atheism is 100% a belief. Agnosticism is a lack of belief.

 

[The Technomancer]

The thing is religion don't evolve. Words written in the text have to be taken literally. It's not changeable. Only thing that can change here is that people stop taking things literally in the book and instead start using some common sense.

In any meaningful sense of the word Christianity has evolved over the last several centuries. You can say that that evolution is really just "deviations from scripture", but that doesn't change the fact that the mass held beliefs of self identifying Christians have changed dramatically

 

[Sutton Dagger]

Yeah, as an atheist I make sure to spend a lot of time trying to prevent women from driving and making sure they cover their face.

:/

Look I get there's this whole dipshit atheist-gamer-mens-rights subsection but the idea that atheism has some kind of monopoly (or any kind of statistical presence) on treating women badly is just really shitty discourse of the most unhelpful kind.

Being an atheist is in no way related to misogyny, how could it when it's simply a lack of belief regarding dieties. Athiesm is a single position on a single statement, do you believe in God(s). Which is obviously totalling different to religious beliefs that (usually) come with doctrines, tenets etc that could/do make statements about the treatment of others.

I suppose it makes some people feel better to say 'look they oppress people too' rather than looking more closely at core values within their faith.

 

[Two Words]

Atheism is 100% a belief. Agnosticism is a lack of belief.

Let's avoid this argument. Most people say atheism to say "no belief".

 

[Angelus Errare]

The idea that atheists wouldn't oppress women because they don't believe in a religion is the most nonsensical shit some of you have ever argued. Men oppress women because men believe that they are superior to women, your religious leaning doesn't really come into play, it only serves as a platform to enforce your view on the genders. The idea that an atheist wouldn't oppress a woman is dumb and you should feel dumb for thinking such a thing. It's the equivalent of thinking someone who is liberal can't be racist.

There's momentum to have policies changed in secular societies like America. The amount of progressive change in religious text is, well, pretty small. Yes. Society does oppress women but the ones centered around religion or tradition don't seem keen on changing those any time soon.

His question wasn't "which oppresses more" but rather is female oppression something inherent to religion.

The answer is no, oppression of females is something inherent to society. Religious institutes just take advantage of it without shame, while secular institutes like to make obfuscate the entire thing.

 

[thefit]

Inasmuch as any other religion does yes. Orthodox Judaism is in many ways the most oppressive to women practicing and certain sects of christianity are almost as strict in dress and power available.

And we all know how Atheists/neo-Libertarians treat women.

What I'm saying is, society oppresses women.

Haha wat is this about atheists and women?