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[Cloyster]

I'd say all the other factors you mentioned have a much greater importance regarding this issue, since gaming alone doesn't seem to be correlated with sexist attitudes.

It would certainly help though.

 

[Palculator]

It would certainly help though.

Yeah, not trying to deny that.

 

[igordennis]

But... it IS coming naturally.

Seriously, look at the current indie lineup on Steam and GOG. And compare it with the games on offer 5 years ago.

This change is happening, simply because the people who wanted to see it happen most are now making it happen by making the games they always wanted to see.

And those games are catching on. Because people want this diversity. They don't want games to be a boys' club anymore.

Fighting it in the manner displayed here in this topic will not make it happen any quicker or slower. If you want it to happen faster... then go make a game of your own. That's what other people are doing, and it's totally working. And it's really the one and only way it's going to continue happening, IMHO -- lip service won't make any difference, it's programming and creative design that's going to oust the old and replace it with something newer and better.

...Seriously, check out Steam and GOG. It's impossible to miss.

-Tom

I dont agree with the part of "if you want to make change, go make the games you want yourself". Criticism exist in every industry and its a positive thing in all of them. You are wrong in your assertion that criticism wont change the situation, anita has proved that when several developers have shown appreciation for the perspective she has brought to the industry (Neil Druckmann expressed it affected TLOU significantly, she visits devs often to have talks about equality and the devs respond positively etc).

I agree with much of what you said in the last posts though, way more reasonable than what i may have thought your position to be.

 

[NotGivingMyNameToADamnCom]

Having so very little female representation in video games, combined with the stigma against video game, turning nerds vindictive against girls that wouldn't go out with them because they were weird, had poor hygeine, and were super nerdy and awkward, plus add in the fact that the only friends these guys have also have those same attitudes which reinforces them, leads to a lot of sexism.

This just comes off silly to me, there are plenty of people who end up horrible misogynists while having completely "normal" school lives or not playing video games. Certainly people thought this way before video games and they'll probably think this way after whatever critical amount of female representation you think will solve it. Video game pandering to me is almost white noise vs. seeing a football start beat his girlfriend to almost no social, legal, or league responses.

 

[BGBW]

But unfortunately, the West has a preconceived notion and disgust for Idol Culture.

Funny thing is the West isn't exactly alien to it. Justin Beiber and One Direction et al are all idols. We have reality tv shows that not only contain the elements of chasing a dream to be famous but contain the word idol in the title.

I'd say the problem is the series is stuck between staying authentic to the Japanese original to make overseas fans happy but thus being limited to a niche audience or giving it the Elite Beat Agents treatment and gutting it and replacing it with more Western friendly songs and characters to make it appealing to the mass market.

 

[schlynch]

Yeah, the Zelda costume and Zero Suit outfit.. awful, just awful, its why I won't buy Hyrule Warriors, or Smash Bros.

/s?

well... Zelda costume is kinda weird, Zero Suit is sad but canon... and Smash is fanservice by itself. Didn't like this too, but having teens running around in lingerie in a suvival horror is another level.

 

[Palculator]

/s?

well... Zelda costume is kinda weird, Zero Suit is sad but canon... and Smash is fanservice by itself. Didn't like this too, but having teens running around in lingerie in a suvival horror is another level.

They are referring to those things having been censored in the Western release, meaning you don't have teens running around in lingerie in a survival horror game.

 

[kuroneko0509]

Yes. I just facepalm went people assume more sexualized men is a decent solution instead of a better depiction of female. It often feels like we are in some bargaining stage where we will trade more sexualization of men if you'll just stop talking about our fanservice and sexualized female designs.

Well then you should invite yourself to discuss that in the Male Sexualization topic. The ladies are having a grand time over there by the looks of it. It's only been mentioned here to say there is equal or at least available sexualization of both genders in Japan versus the West.

 

[Jumplion]

There's ways to fight it though in a civil manner versus personal crass attacks, this topic has been civil recently with Tom, along with Crossing posting some level rebuttals. But Shanny and Jumplion speak with disrespect and snark on the matter. In fact, I still haven't see Shanny rebuttal to Tom's reply about Idol Culture, but instead he picks at something else.

I don't quite appreciate being talked about in passing. If you have something to say to me, please do so, I'm open to whatever people have to say.

If I came across as disrespectful or snarky, well, I can't say I wasn't probably a little snarky, but disrespectful I would dispute.

I've seen these arguments over and over again, and they all follow the same pattern of claiming that "America is a nation of Puritans!", that "the creator has final say!", that people should be allowed to enjoy whatever the hell they want even if the content is questionable.

I am snarky about it because these arguments, while having a kernel of truth, are stretched out so thin so often that they deserve a snarky response because anybody who can see past the trees can see these arguments for what they are; a burnt down forest.

But what's the idea just pause fan service until we get to some acceptable gender split in development, writing, and the board room and come around creating games with fan servicing that has equally heterosexual/homosexual and equally male/female audiences? Also I guess we wait for it to happen in Japan? I mean, I and a lot other people are not going to stop enjoying the pandering because of the inequity in pandering, the same way conflict in the middle east doesn't make me stop putting gas in my car.

I think the whole idea of being 'against' fan service just leads to a lot of nit picking as well. Like earlier some Overwatch art got criticized for being escher and too boob socky? I honestly couldn't see it at all, I thought the stuff looked fine, and I felt like because it looked fine people were working extra hard to find an issue with it. It just seemed like some throwing shit to see what sticks.

I think games are getting better, but I don't think it's going to happen fast or soon and I'm just not going to start swearing off certain foreign games over it. Actually I really doubt my purchasing habits are driving any Japanese trends. Also for reference here is my FFXIV character, which is actually a really good game I think in regards to MMO gear for male/female


Me in the back of course.


Actually I would say there is a pretty big divide between a gender revolution in Japan and the posts on this forum.

Nobody is saying to put a "pause" on fan service, or even that anything should be enforced when dealing with fanservice. The problems run much deeper than just having fan service in the first place.

When people complain about these sorts of things, take a moment to really think about why they're complaining about it. I would like you to stop and think; why didn't you think some of the women in Overwatch didn't have boob socks? How many other characters (usually women) in games, and media in general, have you noticed (and maybe not noticed!) having features like this? How many women have we seen in our media with jackets half-zipped down in a winter environment, yet don't even notice? Blizzard prides itself on a colorful and diverse array of games and styles, and people want to hold them accountable for that.

As for your MMO example, I see what you mean, but I'm more pessimistic about it. I'd argue that A) MMOs are built around customization, B) Japan and other eastern nations are't as good about it as you might think (I'd show off links, but laaaaziness), C) Most of the time that kind of get up for men is used as a joke (though, hey, having fun with it is all good on its own).

Also understand that what you might think would constitute a "sexualized/fanservicy male character" in a game, other people might have other thoughts on that.

I'd say all the other factors you mentioned have a much greater importance regarding this issue, since gaming alone doesn't seem to be correlated with sexist attitudes.

That's not what the study is saying.

 

[schlynch]

They are referring to those things having been censored in the Western release, meaning you don't have teens running around in lingerie in a survival horror game.

Then his/her post makes no sense. I thought he is talking about costumes in Hyrule Warriors and Smash.

 

[AppleSeason]

It bothers me when somebody else can see my screen. As in playing Danganronpa 2 on the train, seeing certain scene on the first chapter...

Spoilery:
http://i.imgur.com/FdvoDNP.jpg

And changing my position so that they can't see my screen.

 

[Seven4sses]

...I hesitated whether or not to post this, but decided in the end that I probably should. So forgive me for jumping back in, but I feel this needs to be said.

You feel this view marginalizes a large group of people, and that's OK -- you're entitled to that opinion. But I actually hold this opinion for somewhat personal reasons, at least regarding the E3 badge argument.

Back in 2001-2003, I taught at two Japanese junior high schools through the JET Programme, and got to know quite a few of the students while I was there. And there were a sizable number of them who dreamed of becoming pop idols -- male students as well, though admittedly mostly female. They would have pictures with them of the pop idols they looked up to most, and while some were more modest (Mini Moni and the like), there were a few with outfits that I'd peg as distinctly similar to Rise's.

The girls all felt these outfits were incredibly cute, and I recall some mentioning that they were even working on making costumes of their own based on the ones they were seeing. They weren't doing this for the sake of attracting boys, but because they truly desired to wear similar outfits, and look adorable in them, and perform on stage in front of crowds, and become famous. For them, that was an actual dream -- something they were working toward, honing their vocal talents and dance choreography alike after school every single day.

Now, you may say that this dream is the result of a society that encourages women to objectify themselves for fame and glory, and that's fair enough. But actually being there, and seeing the spark in these girls' eyes... I can honestly say that it was making them happy. They were putting tremendous effort into attaining the closest thing to pop idol status they possibly could -- more effort than they put into their schoolwork, honestly -- and the passion they had for this goal was absolutely undeniable.

So when I hear someone say that Rise's outfit on that E3 badge is objectifying, or shows too much skin, or is too sexualized for the character... I can't help but think back to those girls, and imagine you telling THEM that. And if you did... I think they'd be absolutely crushed. They weren't even aware of objectification, or sexualization, or anything of that nature -- they just wanted to look cute, dance in sync with one another, sing bubbly songs, and have fun. Not for anyone else's sake, but for their own.

I feel that when people speak out against this kind of thing, it's like telling these girls that they're wrong for pursuing this particular dream -- that they put their eggs in the wrong basket and should reconsider all their life choices.

In short... I actually feel that public disgust for things like this is, in its own way, marginalizing the hopes and dreams of these girls. It's telling them, "There is only one way a girl should conduct herself, and this is not it." And that's not something you should ever tell a kid -- especially when their dreams are giving them something to be passionate about.

To me, it's kind of like when people made fun of me in high school for playing video games too much.

I just think it's important to keep an open mind, and to understand that while Western culture teaches us that outfits like this are sexual and "wrong," Eastern culture embraces them not for objectification, but for empowerment. It's "girly," sure... but it's something that a lot of girls in Japan really look up to and aspire to emulate, and I genuinely don't think that's wrong. Anything that can bring so many girls so much joy and camaraderie isn't something I can rightfully condemn.

...So yeah, I doubt this will change anyone's mind, but I felt it was something worth sharing, to give a different perspective on things -- and maybe help you understand where I'm coming from a little, if nothing else.

Sorry for the long response!

-Tom

Preach!

 

[Palculator]

Then his/her post makes no sense. I thought he is talking about costumes in Hyrule Warriors and Smash.

It makes sense under the assumption that it was sarcasm. The costumes they mentioned are the only thing that constitutes as "fanservice" that are still available in the Western release and they were parodying your reaction to relatively benign fanservice like having costumes inspired by another franchise (even though the thing you were reacting to was the lingerie fanservice which isn't there.)

That's not what the study is saying.

Fair point. Wasn't really bringing it up as a dismissal of the entire concept of cultivation theory like that video suggests people are doing, though. Just why I think getting rid of the fanservice alone might not achieve as much as some people assume. And for the record, I have read the full paper (thanks to Uni library access.)

 

[AcademicSaucer]

...I hesitated whether or not to post this, but decided in the end that I probably should. So forgive me for jumping back in, but I feel this needs to be said.

You feel this view marginalizes a large group of people, and that's OK -- you're entitled to that opinion. But I actually hold this opinion for somewhat personal reasons, at least regarding the E3 badge argument.

Back in 2001-2003, I taught at two Japanese junior high schools through the JET Programme, and got to know quite a few of the students while I was there. And there were a sizable number of them who dreamed of becoming pop idols -- male students as well, though admittedly mostly female. They would have pictures with them of the pop idols they looked up to most, and while some were more modest (Mini Moni and the like), there were a few with outfits that I'd peg as distinctly similar to Rise's.

The girls all felt these outfits were incredibly cute, and I recall some mentioning that they were even working on making costumes of their own based on the ones they were seeing. They weren't doing this for the sake of attracting boys, but because they truly desired to wear similar outfits, and look adorable in them, and perform on stage in front of crowds, and become famous. For them, that was an actual dream -- something they were working toward, honing their vocal talents and dance choreography alike after school every single day.

Now, you may say that this dream is the result of a society that encourages women to objectify themselves for fame and glory, and that's fair enough. But actually being there, and seeing the spark in these girls' eyes... I can honestly say that it was making them happy. They were putting tremendous effort into attaining the closest thing to pop idol status they possibly could -- more effort than they put into their schoolwork, honestly -- and the passion they had for this goal was absolutely undeniable.

So when I hear someone say that Rise's outfit on that E3 badge is objectifying, or shows too much skin, or is too sexualized for the character... I can't help but think back to those girls, and imagine you telling THEM that. And if you did... I think they'd be absolutely crushed. They weren't even aware of objectification, or sexualization, or anything of that nature -- they just wanted to look cute, dance in sync with one another, sing bubbly songs, and have fun. Not for anyone else's sake, but for their own.

I feel that when people speak out against this kind of thing, it's like telling these girls that they're wrong for pursuing this particular dream -- that they put their eggs in the wrong basket and should reconsider all their life choices.

In short... I actually feel that public disgust for things like this is, in its own way, marginalizing the hopes and dreams of these girls. It's telling them, "There is only one way a girl should conduct herself, and this is not it." And that's not something you should ever tell a kid -- especially when their dreams are giving them something to be passionate about.

To me, it's kind of like when people made fun of me in high school for playing video games too much.

I just think it's important to keep an open mind, and to understand that while Western culture teaches us that outfits like this are sexual and "wrong," Eastern culture embraces them not for objectification, but for empowerment. It's "girly," sure... but it's something that a lot of girls in Japan really look up to and aspire to emulate, and I genuinely don't think that's wrong. Anything that can bring so many girls so much joy and camaraderie isn't something I can rightfully condemn.

...So yeah, I doubt this will change anyone's mind, but I felt it was something worth sharing, to give a different perspective on things -- and maybe help you understand where I'm coming from a little, if nothing else.

Sorry for the long response!

-Tom

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

...I hesitated whether or not to post this, but decided in the end that I probably should. So forgive me for jumping back in, but I feel this needs to be said.

You feel this view marginalizes a large group of people, and that's OK -- you're entitled to that opinion. But I actually hold this opinion for somewhat personal reasons, at least regarding the E3 badge argument.

Back in 2001-2003, I taught at two Japanese junior high schools through the JET Programme, and got to know quite a few of the students while I was there. And there were a sizable number of them who dreamed of becoming pop idols -- male students as well, though admittedly mostly female. They would have pictures with them of the pop idols they looked up to most, and while some were more modest (Mini Moni and the like), there were a few with outfits that I'd peg as distinctly similar to Rise's.

The girls all felt these outfits were incredibly cute, and I recall some mentioning that they were even working on making costumes of their own based on the ones they were seeing. They weren't doing this for the sake of attracting boys, but because they truly desired to wear similar outfits, and look adorable in them, and perform on stage in front of crowds, and become famous. For them, that was an actual dream -- something they were working toward, honing their vocal talents and dance choreography alike after school every single day.

Now, you may say that this dream is the result of a society that encourages women to objectify themselves for fame and glory, and that's fair enough. But actually being there, and seeing the spark in these girls' eyes... I can honestly say that it was making them happy. They were putting tremendous effort into attaining the closest thing to pop idol status they possibly could -- more effort than they put into their schoolwork, honestly -- and the passion they had for this goal was absolutely undeniable.

So when I hear someone say that Rise's outfit on that E3 badge is objectifying, or shows too much skin, or is too sexualized for the character... I can't help but think back to those girls, and imagine you telling THEM that. And if you did... I think they'd be absolutely crushed. They weren't even aware of objectification, or sexualization, or anything of that nature -- they just wanted to look cute, dance in sync with one another, sing bubbly songs, and have fun. Not for anyone else's sake, but for their own.

I feel that when people speak out against this kind of thing, it's like telling these girls that they're wrong for pursuing this particular dream -- that they put their eggs in the wrong basket and should reconsider all their life choices.

In short... I actually feel that public disgust for things like this is, in its own way, marginalizing the hopes and dreams of these girls. It's telling them, "There is only one way a girl should conduct herself, and this is not it." And that's not something you should ever tell a kid -- especially when their dreams are giving them something to be passionate about.

To me, it's kind of like when people made fun of me in high school for playing video games too much.

I just think it's important to keep an open mind, and to understand that while Western culture teaches us that outfits like this are sexual and "wrong," Eastern culture embraces them not for objectification, but for empowerment. It's "girly," sure... but it's something that a lot of girls in Japan really look up to and aspire to emulate, and I genuinely don't think that's wrong. Anything that can bring so many girls so much joy and camaraderie isn't something I can rightfully condemn.

...So yeah, I doubt this will change anyone's mind, but I felt it was something worth sharing, to give a different perspective on things -- and maybe help you understand where I'm coming from a little, if nothing else.

Sorry for the long response!

-Tom

amen

 

[Ralemont]

The artistic integrity argument becomes muddied once you consider the reality of how most games are made. Auteurs are quite rare in the game industry. What content is determined by focus groups and marketing, and what is a genuine statement by the artist? It's almost impossible to tell. So you can either say the finished original product is sacred, or you allow for the possibility of changes based on feedback.

The latter frankly makes more sense to me, especially when considering something like Xenoblade's swimsuits. There's no artistic statement being made there. There's no political or social feeling the author is trying to communicate to the player. There's no criticism of government. The story or characters - as far as I know, please correct me if mistaken - isn't about freedom of sexuality for teenagers. So in the end it's simply pandering, which as I've said I'm mostly fine with. Except that as pandering, it falls completely outside of being protected by the artistic integrity argument. Conceived as a means to please fans, it can also be changed as a way to please fans - albeit a different type of fan. There's plenty of people who would love to play Xenoblade, and I think there's a significant amount of those people who would either approve of or be indifferent towards underage people wearing clothes instead of bikinis.

 

[Nose Master]

Loli/moe fanservice is embarrassing and creepy, yeah. Avoid a lot of potentially great games because they have half naked "1000 year old demons" plastered all over it.

The other stuff is fine, as long as it's not constant.

 

[21XX]

"In short... I actually feel that public disgust for things like this is, in its own way, marginalizing the hopes and dreams of these girls."

Wow. This line of thinking is completely alien to me and I find it ridiculous. God speed, thread.

 

[M0nochromatic]

Actual content that services fans, like references and call backs, are great in any series that does it well. Wearing the old armor, hearing an old song, or seeing an aged character from a previous entry is great stuff.

Sexual content for the sake of audience titilation(fanservice) isn't a problem in games that hold it as a main draw. That's fine for DOA or Senran Kagura, but when it shows up and breaks immersion or muddles the narrative in any other game it makes for a worse experience.

It's actually funny looking at MGS3, 4, and V. 3 did a great job at how it handled The Boss and Evas characters and then 4's BnB Units and Quiet happened.

 

[Stumpokapow]

RE: differing cultural norms and expression as empowerment:

a) Japan is not America and there's no need to say "well there are places in the world where this is the governing norm". Yeah, okay, and? Japan has quite a lot of weird gender norms, including a sort of pre-1950s view on female workplace participation, pretty restrictive norms on marriageability and spinsterdom, very low female participation in government, weak norms on punishment of public sexual assault, etc.

b) It's possible that an institution can be repressive and restrictive, and people that institution can find it liberating. For example, the niqab as an institution is plainly anti-women, imposed by men, and designed to deny women agency. And yet, in some settings, especially in the west, niqabis find it liberating. This is not mutually contradictory. It's also not mutually contradictory for a feminist to complain about porn as an industry while also recognizing that some porn stars are in full control of their lives and choose to be doing what they are doing. It's also okay to not be able to come to an obvious conclusion. Something like Bayonetta is an example of a sexualized character that has gotten strong negative and positive feedback from people who are generally critics of trashy stuff in games.

c) It's a bit weird that the argument is "A woman could find this liberating" when the person making the argument is a man and the person doing the design is typically a man and the target audience is typically male. I mean, that's not to say that men can't weigh in on gender dynamics or whatever. Its just like... you don't need to construct a hypothetical woman to make the argument for you--we would expect the real ones to weigh in, right?

d) It's a little weird to point out that young girls might like doing something as a defence against the perception that that thing is designed for the entertainment of older men. Girls who compete in child beauty pageants often really enjoy doing it, it doesn't mean we can't criticize their existence in society or the guy in sweatpants and a trenchcoat sitting in the front row of the competition.

 

[NotGivingMyNameToADamnCom]

When people complain about these sorts of things, take a moment to really think about why they're complaining about it. I would like you to stop and think; why didn't you think some of the women in Overwatch didn't have boob socks?

Well my main issue was on the really inaccurate escher complaints, I guess I made a mistake in mentioning boob socks because you primarily focused on that and accidentally disregarded what I was really getting at. People's complaints were the same escher go-to's which have morphed from earnest criticism to something that people will throw out any time someone isn't standing with their arms at their side.

The same thing with boob sock, I don't really think D. Va is that bad frankly, I think people threw out escher and boob sock because they felt a need to critique out of pure knee jerk. I think that's even more true of Tracer. We're in a fan service thread and someone posted Overwatch characters, obviously then can't be good or even okay because nothing was ever good.

How many women have we seen in our media with jackets half-zipped down in a winter environment, yet don't even notice?

I don't know, did you ever wonder how hard Vulcan Raven's nipples must be? My guess is pretty fucking hard. They're video games, sometimes things will be impractical. Obviously very often women characters are needlessly sexualized, sure, but I don't ignore inappropriate outfits in cold weather, I recognize it. I'm not going to cop to being more of an idiot than I am.

As for your MMO example, I see what you mean, but I'm more pessimistic about it. I'd argue that A) MMOs are built around customization,

Sure? You can dress your character however you want, I don't see how that's a counter argument. You can be as slutty or non-slutty as you want and there is pretty damn close equality in slutty options between genders with the exception of a single rabbit outfit that everyone loses their minds over.

B) Japan and other eastern nations are't as good about it as you might think (I'd show off links, but laaaaziness),

I'm using the game as an example, not the nation.

C) Most of the time that kind of get up for men is used as a joke (though, hey, having fun with it is all good on its own).

Except that gear looks the same on men as women generally. The speedo is gender locked but there is a female equivalent, but a lot of the skimpy gear in this game simply doesn't have a gender lock on it (please any ffxiv players I don't want a side argument about the damn bunny outfit). Certainly a reaction to seeing a man dressed skimpily might be humor because of social norms, but these aren't costumes designed for men to make them look ridiculous, they're costumes in the game which look the same on male and female characters, which I think is a big thing given how often plate greaves turn into thigh highs in WoW. Yeah sure I'm dressed up that way for fun, but that doesn't change the fact that I called a f***ot in game for it a long time ago(the guy got a suspension). What people perceive is still the same.

Also understand that what you might think would constitute a "sexualized/fanservicy male character" in a game, other people might have other thoughts on that.

Of course they would. Like if you have a stockings fetish you're going to find stockings sexy, even outside what is meant to be sexual. So of course different things may be sexually appealing to different people, but I like my character looking beefy once in awhile, and while it might be more of a preference of gay men I don't know if "well this fan service doesn't have enough mass appeal" is a hand wave. I don't care what other people think makes a man sexy frankly. I like my character looking beefy it's funny and it's sexy. Most people in these games like their characters to be appealing in some way.

I like Vega having his shirt off I like how Vega looks, he's pretty to me. I don't have a problem with male characters being sexualized despite my orientation because it just looks good sometimes, same thing with female characters. Frankly my biggest issue with the game is that there was no bulge slider. Of course people have different preferences and that's great, but I don't think my lack of an overt desire to perform coitus on a particular video game character removes me from evaluating the expression of sexuality that the gear represents, and yeah my character being dressed like he's on a pride parade float certainly expresses sexuality, I'm not just fumbling with things beyond my understanding because I'm straight.

Avoid a lot of potentially great games because they have half naked "1000 year old demons" plastered all over it.

You avoid a lot of games because of this? Really?

 

[RM8]

I do avoid games because of fanservice myself. Recently, the designs in Stella Glow made me lose interest. In combination with the game being somewhat dating sim like. It's just not my thing, really, just like cinematic games are not my thing, or VNs, or most shooters.

 

[Shouta]

"In short... I actually feel that public disgust for things like this is, in its own way, marginalizing the hopes and dreams of these girls."

Wow. This line of thinking is completely alien to me and I find it ridiculous. God speed, thread.

It's actually fairly ridiculous because idol culture is awful in Japan and many girls don't ever want to become one because the industry is awful. Many only chose to do it because it was their only way to get into show business. Every one of my students scoffed at the idea when I asked them during my time working there. Considering how much bullshit scrutiny goes on like what happened with numerous AKB48 members and other idols throughout the years. It's a perfect example of how it looks great on paper but is gross in practice.

On topic, too much sexual fanservice is definitely bad. It's been around for ages but the magnitude and frequency have increased to the point where it's not a service anymore but common and often very tasteless. It's not as bad as in anime but games, especially from Japan, do have that trend of including it way more than necessary. Even a game like Dead or Alive used to just have bouncing breasts and a risque costume or two but now the games have sweat physics and a ton of near naked ones, lol.

The "More old costumes, cameos from characters, shoutouts to stuff" kind of fanservice we need more of. Just not as DLC.

 

[GoldenCrow]

The titillation stuff absolutely puts me off and is not what I want from a game, so not the service this fan wants. I'm totally cool that people have their kinks and that this is one for some, after all everyone has different quirks and who am I to judge but save that stuff for supporting materials that aren't in game for those who enjoy it to specifically engage with. It makes far more sense to fiscally separate the two, on one side you can appeal to a wider audience and on the other provide a product that want some titillation. There are a lot of fantastic games marred by the fan service, still play them though so maybe I should vote with my wallet more.

 

[McBryBry]

I'm mostly indifferent. Only time a really, truly like it is when it's used as good comic potential. Like R Mika? I thought the changes were unnecessary because she's SO over the top with it, it's hilarious.

 

[Son Of Sparda]

Depends on the game but generally speaking, no.

 

[The Technomancer]

RE: differing cultural norms and expression as empowerment:

a) Japan is not America and there's no need to say "well there are places in the world where this is the governing norm". Yeah, okay, and? Japan has quite a lot of weird gender norms, including a sort of pre-1950s view on female workplace participation, pretty restrictive norms on marriageability and spinsterdom, very low female participation in government, weak norms on punishment of public sexual assault, etc.

b) It's possible that an institution can be repressive and restrictive, and people that institution can find it liberating. For example, the niqab as an institution is plainly anti-women, imposed by men, and designed to deny women agency. And yet, in some settings, especially in the west, niqabis find it liberating. This is not mutually contradictory. It's also not mutually contradictory for a feminist to complain about porn as an industry while also recognizing that some porn stars are in full control of their lives and choose to be doing what they are doing. It's also okay to not be able to come to an obvious conclusion. Something like Bayonetta is an example of a sexualized character that has gotten strong negative and positive feedback from people who are generally critics of trashy stuff in games.

c) It's a bit weird that the argument is "A woman could find this liberating" when the person making the argument is a man and the person doing the design is typically a man and the target audience is typically male. I mean, that's not to say that men can't weigh in on gender dynamics or whatever. Its just like... you don't need to construct a hypothetical woman to make the argument for you--we would expect the real ones to weigh in, right?

d) It's a little weird to point out that young girls might like doing something as a defence against the perception that that thing is designed for the entertainment of older men. Girls who compete in child beauty pageants often really enjoy doing it, it doesn't mean we can't criticize their existence in society or the guy in sweatpants and a trenchcoat sitting in the front row of the competition.

This articulates some arguments I was going to make very succinctly, thank you

 

[Vlaphor]

My big request would be that of choice, both ways. If someone doesn't like the fan service character, then they should have ways of making the game their own. I remember when modders made it so you could use Quiet's last outfit early and there were people who were happy about that. At the same time, those of us who do like fanservice in their games should get full options as well. Making everyone happy is impossible, but this would be a good step in that direction.

Unless your stance is that fanservice is bad for society, in which case I got nothing for you.

 

[NotGivingMyNameToADamnCom]

It's actually fairly ridiculous because idol culture is awful in Japan and many girls don't ever want to become one because the industry is awful.

It seems like a lot of it is typical show business shit, it's certainly exploitative and I really don't echo that guy's sentiments on it, but is there that much more to this "most awful thing" conclusion on it? It just seems that everyone points to that fucked up head shaving thing and that's it. I guess you have Aya Hirano too. I saw some Vice thing about compensated dating that mentioned JK idols, but that's really fringe as far as I know.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

d) It's a little weird to point out that young girls might like doing something as a defence against the perception that that thing is designed for the entertainment of older men. Girls who compete in child beauty pageants often really enjoy doing it, it doesn't mean we can't criticize their existence in society or the guy in sweatpants and a trenchcoat sitting in the front row of the competition.

Child beauty pageants are a different beast altogether. Those kids have even less agency than the middle schoolers Tom is talking about.

It's also important to note the idol industry at its base is NOT designed for old men, but everyone, it just happens to attract them, but not as much as it attracts teenagers, girls and boys alike. The producers certainly aren't setting perverted old men as their target demographic except in extremely rare circumstances.

You're right in that "girls have dreams" is not an argument. That's the same logic you can use for ISIS recruitment and any number of problematic illegitimate industries. However, what we're talking about is aspiring to become a pop star, not something inherently harmful in spite of some shoddy practices that every pop industry is plagued with.

Edit: And let me say I'm 100% for reforming the industry so these girls don't have warped expectations of what it means to be an idol, but I also wouldn't crush their dreams as they are now.

 

[BiggNife]

RE: differing cultural norms and expression as empowerment:

a) Japan is not America and there's no need to say "well there are places in the world where this is the governing norm". Yeah, okay, and? Japan has quite a lot of weird gender norms, including a sort of pre-1950s view on female workplace participation, pretty restrictive norms on marriageability and spinsterdom, very low female participation in government, weak norms on punishment of public sexual assault, etc.

b) It's possible that an institution can be repressive and restrictive, and people that institution can find it liberating. For example, the niqab as an institution is plainly anti-women, imposed by men, and designed to deny women agency. And yet, in some settings, especially in the west, niqabis find it liberating. This is not mutually contradictory. It's also not mutually contradictory for a feminist to complain about porn as an industry while also recognizing that some porn stars are in full control of their lives and choose to be doing what they are doing. It's also okay to not be able to come to an obvious conclusion. Something like Bayonetta is an example of a sexualized character that has gotten strong negative and positive feedback from people who are generally critics of trashy stuff in games.

c) It's a bit weird that the argument is "A woman could find this liberating" when the person making the argument is a man and the person doing the design is typically a man and the target audience is typically male. I mean, that's not to say that men can't weigh in on gender dynamics or whatever. Its just like... you don't need to construct a hypothetical woman to make the argument for you--we would expect the real ones to weigh in, right?

d) It's a little weird to point out that young girls might like doing something as a defence against the perception that that thing is designed for the entertainment of older men. Girls who compete in child beauty pageants often really enjoy doing it, it doesn't mean we can't criticize their existence in society or the guy in sweatpants and a trenchcoat sitting in the front row of the competition.

I agree with pretty much all of this post

Institutions can be alienating to some and liberating to others. Just because some women find wearing fanservicey costumes to be liberating doesn't invalidate the argument people have against them.

Turns out a lot of social issues aren't just black or white! Shocking, I know.

 

[Jumplion]

Well my main issue was on the really inaccurate escher complaints, I guess I made a mistake in mentioning boob socks because you primarily focused on that and accidentally disregarded what I was really getting at. People's complaints were the same escher go-to's which have morphed from earnest criticism to something that people will throw out any time someone isn't standing with their arms at their side.

The same thing with boob sock, I don't really think D. Va is that bad frankly, I think people threw out escher and boob sock because they felt a need to critique out of pure knee jerk. I think that's even more true of Tracer. We're in a fan service thread and someone posted Overwatch characters, obviously then can't be good or even okay because nothing was ever good.

Well, I doubt people completely ignored Tracer in their criticism of the boob socks, my main point with that whole spiel was to have you think about why people would be complaining about it. It's so easy to dismiss someone else's complaint because you "just don't see it". I would ask you to think of why you don't see it.

I don't know, did you ever wonder how hard Vulcan Raven's nipples must be? My guess is pretty fucking hard. They're video games, sometimes things will be impractical. Obviously very often women characters are needlessly sexualized, sure, but I don't ignore inappropriate outfits in cold weather, I recognize it. I'm not going to cop to being more of an idiot than I am.

I'm not talking about whether or not the wardrobe is impractical. I'm talking about understanding how often we, as dudes, are pandered to and we don't even realize it. It has nothing to do with how much of an idiot you are, we're all idiots here.

... I'm not just fumbling with things beyond my understanding because I'm straight.

But you are disregarding other people's discomfort with a thing because you are refusing to understand the complaints. Case in point:

You avoid a lot of games because of this? Really?

Some people are put off by that kind of stuff. I would ask you to consider why someone would be put off by it. Especially someone who isn't as familiar with gaming, it'd weird them the fuck out to see people take the "It's okay, she's 1000 years old, it's not echii!" thing so seriously.

 

[NotGivingMyNameToADamnCom]

d) It's a little weird to point out that young girls might like doing something as a defence against the perception that that thing is designed for the entertainment of older men. Girls who compete in child beauty pageants often really enjoy doing it, it doesn't mean we can't criticize their existence in society or the guy in sweatpants and a trenchcoat sitting in the front row of the competition.

You know given the massive amount of scrutiny these events got, has there even been any news report of anything somewhat fitting this? It just seems like a lot of hysteria "of course it's pedophile bait, literally toddlers in tiaras!!!!!"

 

[secretanchitman]

Not at all. I love fanservice and I wish more games did it! MGS and Smash Bros are the kings of fanservice from what I've played.

 

[Shouta]

It seems like a lot of it is typical show business shit, it's certainly exploitative and I really don't echo that guy's sentiments on it, but is there that much more to this "most awful thing" conclusion on it? It just seems that everyone points to that fucked up head shaving thing and that's it. I guess you have Aya Hirano too. I saw some Vice thing about JK idols, but that's really fringe as far as I know.

There's a lot of the dirty show business shit behind the scenes obviously. I don't want to get into a long post but it's really bad when you get into the effect the industry has on the society itself. There are certainly some decent aspects of it but the way it's handled is just ergh.

It's also important to note the idol industry at its base is NOT designed for old men, but everyone, it just happens to attract them, but not as much as it attracts teenagers, girls and boys alike. The producers certainly aren't setting perverted old men as their target demographic except in extremely rare circumstances.

This is pretty much not true. The idol industry, especially nowadays, is designed exactly to pull in lonely otaku men and creepy older ones. Their merchandising schemes, how they engage the media, the conduct required of the idols, etc are all there to promote them for men with a ton of disposable income. In some cases, there will be appeal across demographics but it's not that common. It just looks common because the magnitude of the groups that reach across demos is extremely significant. But looking at it across all groups, it's really rare.

 

[Mik317]

I feel like we are getting off topic here......

 

[cosmicblizzard]

This is pretty much not true. The idol industry, especially nowadays, is designed exactly to pull in lonely otaku men and creepy older ones. Their merchandising schemes, how they engage the media, the conduct required of the idols, etc are all there to promote them for men with a ton of disposable income. In some cases, there will be appeal across demographics but it's not that common. It just looks common because the magnitude of the groups that reach across demos is extremely significant. But looking at it across all groups, it's really rare.

Well, I stand corrected then.

Though I imagine the girls Tom is talking about are taking inspiration from the idols that breach multiple demographics as it doesn't look much different from their ideal. I see nothing wrong with that, even if the chances of them making it there is incredibly slim and the reality is far from their ideal.

 

[demidar]

I assume this thread only means sexy fanservice, or fapservice, because stuff like Smash Brothers is awesome, which is a monolith of fanservice. Dream fighting matchups between all your favourite Nintendo characters! We need more of that.

 

[RM8]

I assume this thread only means sexy fanservice, or fapservice, because stuff like Smash Brothers is awesome, which is a monolith of fanservice. Dream fighting matchups between all your favourite Nintendo characters! We need more of that.

I used to think that was fanservice, stuff like SSB. But now it means sexual pandering, I hardly ever see it used in the former context.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

The artistic integrity argument becomes muddied once you consider the reality of how most games are made. Auteurs are quite rare in the game industry. What content is determined by focus groups and marketing, and what is a genuine statement by the artist? It's almost impossible to tell. So you can either say the finished original product is sacred, or you allow for the possibility of changes based on feedback.

Yup. And when it comes to something called fanservice, it's pretty obvious on which side of the fence it falls, heh.

RE: differing cultural norms and expression as empowerment:

a) Japan is not America and there's no need to say "well there are places in the world where this is the governing norm". Yeah, okay, and? Japan has quite a lot of weird gender norms, including a sort of pre-1950s view on female workplace participation, pretty restrictive norms on marriageability and spinsterdom, very low female participation in government, weak norms on punishment of public sexual assault, etc.

b) It's possible that an institution can be repressive and restrictive, and people that institution can find it liberating. For example, the niqab as an institution is plainly anti-women, imposed by men, and designed to deny women agency. And yet, in some settings, especially in the west, niqabis find it liberating. This is not mutually contradictory. It's also not mutually contradictory for a feminist to complain about porn as an industry while also recognizing that some porn stars are in full control of their lives and choose to be doing what they are doing. It's also okay to not be able to come to an obvious conclusion. Something like Bayonetta is an example of a sexualized character that has gotten strong negative and positive feedback from people who are generally critics of trashy stuff in games.

c) It's a bit weird that the argument is "A woman could find this liberating" when the person making the argument is a man and the person doing the design is typically a man and the target audience is typically male. I mean, that's not to say that men can't weigh in on gender dynamics or whatever. Its just like... you don't need to construct a hypothetical woman to make the argument for you--we would expect the real ones to weigh in, right?

d) It's a little weird to point out that young girls might like doing something as a defence against the perception that that thing is designed for the entertainment of older men. Girls who compete in child beauty pageants often really enjoy doing it, it doesn't mean we can't criticize their existence in society or the guy in sweatpants and a trenchcoat sitting in the front row of the competition.

Now this is the post that deserves all the accolades. Well put.

 

[autoduelist]

Is it ridiculously egoistical for women to want to be portrayed evenly without tits and ass hanging out all over the place?

At issue here is the grey area between 'always' and 'never'. Of course women shouldn't always be portrayed with tits and ass hanging out all over the place, but also, of course, there will be some media that -does- have it. And that's fine and normal. Some people get turned on by t&a, and so it makes perfect sense some amount of any medium will have t&a. So even if we posit a medium where everything is "portrayed evenly" we're still going to have "tits and ass hanging out all over the place" in some of it.

The marketplace is at play, and the marketplace corrects itself over time. If there is too much of something, companies go under, and if there is too little, more companies come in to fill the void.

But there are many factors at play here. Gaming is an inherently visual medium, and the history of the marketplace across other mediums does suggest that will tend to lean a certain way. Women tend to buy text to get turned on - hence 50 Shades and a massive romantic novel industry. Men seem to get turned on by visual stimulation, hence the [once] massive men's nudie mag industry pre-internet. So personally, i wouldn't be surprised to see some games lean visually to T&A, and other more narrative games lean towards 'interactive romance'. But I'm talking over the course of a couple decades as the medium still finds its footing. This is just guesswork, though - ultimately I think the marketplace will naturally find ways to turn everybody on, because that makes most people happy and some people a lot of money. But my hypothesis is that this is why, visually, we tend to see more T&A... though exceptions like Magic Mike exist, and of course men with abs take their t-shirts off on tv any chance they get... it's complex and nuanced, no simple answer.

Regardless, at no point is the answer - stop making xyz! The answer is 'make more of abc!'. And the way you accomplish that is by buying 'abc', and showing demand. Demand is why the 'xyz' [in this case, t&a] exists in the first place... and you don't stop that by demanding less t&a, but rather, by showing demand for stuff w/o it.

Playboy actually perfectly shows this -- there was a demand for t&a, so they filled it. They did exceptionally well. Then the internet hit, and people got their t&a elsewhere... demand for nudie mags faded, and they recently decided to stop having nude shots in their mags. That's the marketplace at work. It wasn't accomplished by getting rid of t&a [in fact, people are now just getting hardcore porn on the net as an alternative].

Gaming, however, is the perfect place for everything. Interactive mediums are clearly part of our future, and that includes everything from t&a to interactive romances to hardcore vr porn. Gaming isn't going to be held back by t&a, if anything it's going to explode as the dominant medium because of it. Mediums change and adapt over time. VHS beat betamax thanks in large part to porn. VHS and DVDs put porn theaters out of business. It's far more likely that gaming will fully embrace porn, than push it out entirely.

 

[igordennis]

I have stumpokapow's post history on my favorites for a reason. Well done, by both mods on this page.

I figured Tom's view on the idol situation may be warped given his tendencies but i wouldn't comment on something that i have absolutely no clue of. Shouta's posts clarified things.

 

[Nose Master]

You avoid a lot of games because of this? Really?

...Yeah? Even though I'm an established Weeb, I don't really want to look at (nor be seen playing) a game with drawings of glorified 8 year olds wearing thongs. I'd imagine most people are the same.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

I figured Tom's view on the idol situation may be warped given his tendencies but i wouldn't comment on something that i have absolutely no clue of. Shouta's posts clarified things.

To be fair, its one guy's word against the other there, and taking the side you find more appealing is confirmation bias.

I'm speaking from a purely neutral standpoint of course.

 

[NotGivingMyNameToADamnCom]

Well, I doubt people completely ignored Tracer in their criticism of the boob socks, my main point with that whole spiel was to have you think about why people would be complaining about it. It's so easy to dismiss someone else's complaint because you "just don't see it". I would ask you to think of why you don't see it.

Again you're completely disregarding that I was more talking about people making invalid escher complaints, that's what I didn't see, I thought I explicitly stated I regretted saying 'boob sock' but here we still are. D'Va had boob socks, Tracer didn't look like she did given the picture, which was ultimately a complaint about her posture not the boob socks. Again people were talking about the poses being impossible, which while a little exaggerated (being cartoony and all) were simply not that bad.

Is this boob socky? I don't know, it's a bomber and it's got the thing from r-type over her breasts and I guess maybe they're too big for her frame or the r-type thing some kind of push up a bra. But if they were too small we just might have some guy talking about how she looks 10 years old, so I dunno. Is it a boob sock if both are in there? Is it a boob sock if it's a bomber jacket? I don't think I'm on a genetic level unable to see it. Yeah okay culture has desensitized me fine whatever, I'm a monster, but I just don't see the boob socks on tracer.

I'm not talking about whether or not the wardrobe is impractical. I'm talking about understanding how often we, as dudes, are pandered to and we don't even realize it. It has nothing to do with how much of an idiot you are, we're all idiots here.

Yeah fine, but I feel like I do realize it a lot of times, especially in reference to things like impractical wardrobes and I typically only ignore it when when everyone is running around in the snow with their shirt off.

Some people are put off by that kind of stuff. I would ask you to consider why someone would be put off by it. Especially someone who isn't as familiar with gaming, it'd weird them the fuck out to see people take the "It's okay, she's 1000 years old, it's not echii!" thing so seriously.

You really read that as me defending that kind of stuff, my point is that there aren't enough games that include that particular thing to avoid "a lot of games" because of it. It's classic overstatement, that's what I was reacting to, man talk about seeing what you want to.

There's a lot of the dirty show business shit behind the scenes obviously. I don't want to get into a long post but it's really bad when you get into the effect the industry has on the society itself. There are certainly some decent aspects of it but the way it's handled is just ergh.

Yeah, sometimes I wonder if people blow it out of proportion a little. Off the top of my head I'd say it's probably less bad than the NFL but I don't have a lot of insight into it, Well thanks anyway for your response.

...Yeah? Even though I'm an established Weeb, I don't really want to look at (nor be seen playing) a game with drawings of glorified 8 year olds wearing thongs. I'd imagine most people are the same.

Honestly I thought it was pretty clear that my issue wasn't that you avoided the games but that you'd said you avoid a lot. Like how many 5 this year? Is that so common in games being localized?

 

[Nose Master]

Honestly I thought it was pretty clear that my issue wasn't that you avoided the games but that you'd said you avoid a lot. Like how many 5 this year? Is that so common in games being localized?

I phrased it weird, it's obviously not terribly common. I like JRPGs, though, and it's pretty rampant in them. There's usually at least one bare-ass loli.

 

[NotGivingMyNameToADamnCom]

I phrased it weird, it's obviously not terribly common. I like JRPGs, though, and it's pretty rampant in them. There's usually at least one bare-ass loli.

Also it's not terribly common but pretty rampant? I particularly meant the 1000 year old loli trope. Also I feel like "potentially great" is a little much for a game with a bunch of lolis plastered all over it.

 

[igordennis]

To be fair, its one guy's word against the other there, and taking the side you find more appealing is confirmation bias.

I'm speaking from a purely neutral standpoint of course.

I dont necessarily find it more appealing, i find it more logical. I didnt comment on it before because i only had his perspective on the matter. Im taking shouta's word for it because tom has expressed his fondness for true "moe" which would imply a bias in something like the idol culture which has a lot of that according to him.

 

[Shouta]

Yeah, sometimes I wonder if people blow it out of proportion a little. Off the top of my head I'd say it's probably less bad than the NFL but I don't have a lot of insight into it, Well thanks anyway for your response.

It's a different kind of bad when compared with the NFL. The NFL will circle the wagons and keep quite despite some of the things players will do. There's also cronyism and corruption. With idols, they'll immediately ostracize idols that break the rules. They'll be shamed by the fanbase and all that making it really terrible for the women. It's really toxic and more directly promotes bad attitudes in society in regards to gender because it's active rather than passive problem with the NFL.

 

[Nose Master]

Also it's not terribly common but pretty rampant? I particularly meant the 1000 year old loli trope. Also I feel like "potentially great" is a little much for a game with a bunch of lolis plastered all over it.

It's not very common in gaming overall, but rampant in JRPGs. Most of them have at least one loli, and you're lucky if they're wearing a dress and not a BDSM outfit.