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[not_so_special]

i will getting intro trouble here

really i dont have anything about trans people,but their online comunity seems to be one of the most intolerable,nitckpicky and ready to make war with anyuone i have seen on the internet

I know its not a easy life for transgenders i really know but sometimes that comunity make things worse

maybe its just my perception,i hope im wrong here

 

[THRILLH0]

...

Interesting post but I don't understand how it refutes the point being made.

I would suggest that many transgender people would reject the notion that gender is performative. In theory perhaps, but not in practice.

I've heard stories first hand from 2 acquaintances who described putting on a dress and going out in public as both the most liberating and terrifying moments of their lives and something they could not bring themselves to do until they had transitioned. To them, gender is not simply a costume.

I'm not suggesting that their experience is representative of all transgender people and not an I saying that drag is an inherently demeaning or bigoted behaviour. I also agree with you that most drag is not designed to mock so in that way it does certainly differ from traditional blackface. But it's entirely reasonable to recognise that it could be hurtful or offensive to transgender people.

 

[Yaboosh]

i will getting intro trouble here

really i dont have anything about trans people,but their online comunity seems to be one of the most intolerable,nitckpicky and ready to make war with anyuone i have seen on the internet

I know its not a easy life for transgenders i really know but sometimes that comunity make things worse

maybe its just my perception,i hope im wrong here

They are one of the most vulnerable groups on the planet. If not the most vulnerable.

 

[Platy]

This thread is a mess. each person is discussing in favor of a diferent kind of interpretation of the actual news =P

On a macro level though, drag queens do the exact same thing that trans- and cisgender people do every day of their lives--they construct gender through performance.

Drag Queen performance and Butler gender performance are 2 diferent things.

She meant in a set of rules that are changeable, but a set of rules. Like capitalism is performance.

Drag Queen performance is like a clown or Lady Gaga performance.

Ridiculously high heels and impossibly long nails are not gender performance, it is gender parody.

If you take out the Lady Gaga (lipsinc for your life) and parody side of things you end up with simple crossdressing.

I would say drag queens are performing gender more when they are in their normal lifes in boy clothes =P

 

[ZombiePlatypus]

Putting spoilers for offensive language. Here's just a sampling.

Spoiler

"Oh my god, look at that tranny in the dress, he thinks he's a girl!"
"Hey faggot, you cut your dick off yet? I know I'm not a woman--I just do this for fun. You're sick!"
"Look at these trannies in the front. Look at them, thinking they're women. This is what happens when you can't accept that you're just another gay male--it's pathetic!"

And then all the cis gay men start laughing and applauding and the trans people shrink and leave, because even Pride events aren't safe for us.

Uh yeah, that's kinda awful. There isn't even a punchline here. It's just "HAHA LOL TRANS PPL."

Anecdotal I know, but for what it's worth, I've never personally encountered a drag act put out material like this.

 

[Nostremitus]

Why is it called drag anyways? Does it come from something specific?

Shakespeare

DR/AG (Dressed/As Girl)

Young men played the roles of the female characters, in the script it would list DRAG to mean that actor would be dressed as a girl.

From wikipedia:

In England, actors in Shakespearean plays, and all Elizabethan theatre, were all male; female parts were played by young men in drag. Shakespeare used the conventions to enrich the gender confusions of As You Like It, and Ben Jonson manipulated the same conventions in Epicœne, or The Silent Woman, (1609).

 

[dream]

I've heard stories first hand from 2 acquaintances who described putting on a dress and going out in public as both the most liberating and terrifying moments of their lives and something they could not bring themselves to do until they had transitioned. To them, gender is not simply a costume.

I think this is a good example because it shows the way they've constructed their understanding of gender. To them, part of their gender expression is realized in their clothes. Having transitioned, they're able to comfortably and convincingly (to themselves, I mean) perform their gender in a way that realizes their construal of what "female" looks and feels like.

 

[not_so_special]

They are one of the most vulnerable groups on the planet. If not the most vulnerable.

how we can measure that?

 

[badcrumble]

There are a lot of deplorably transphobic drag queens out there but to suggest that drag itself -the practice or cultural instutition- is inherently transmisogynistic, well, the burden of proof is on you.

 

[Erin S Kittens]

how we can measure that?

I wonder what a comprehensive study would show.

 

[RDreamer]

Putting spoilers for offensive language. Here's just a sampling.

Spoiler

"Oh my god, look at that tranny in the dress, he thinks he's a girl!"
"Hey faggot, you cut your dick off yet? I know I'm not a woman--I just do this for fun. You're sick!"
"Look at these trannies in the front. Look at them, thinking they're women. This is what happens when you can't accept that you're just another gay male--it's pathetic!"

And then all the cis gay men start laughing and applauding and the trans people shrink and leave, because even Pride events aren't safe for us.

Jeeeeeesus that's crazy bad. I've not witnessed anything quite like that.

 

[pigeon]

Shakespeare

DR/AG (Dressed/As Girl)

Young men played the roles of the female characters, in the script it would list DRAG to mean that actor would be dressed as a girl.

From wikipedia:

I hate to be that guy, but acronymic etymologies are almost all lies. There are no examples of acronyms becoming words (as opposed to remaining acronyms but becoming conventional) before the twentieth century.

From your same source:

A folk etymology whose acronym basis reveals the late-20th-century bias, would make "drag" an abbreviation of "dressed as girl" in description of male transvestism.

The real etymology of drag is basically unknown, which is not too surprising given that at the time the phrase was developed gay culture was still underground because of the danger of being known to be gay.

 

[Erin S Kittens]

Jeeeeeesus that's crazy bad. I've not witnessed anything quite like that.

I don't go to Pride events anymore because of that kind of hateful bullshit that cis people seem way too eager to cosign. In Texas, we have an anti-corporate alternative called Queerbomb, the whole feel is 100% different and infinitely more comfortable for people who are marginalized by the corporatization, cis-washing, and whitewashing of Pride.

 

[Izuna]

I think this is a good example because it shows the way they've constructed their understanding of gender. To them, part of their gender expression is realized in their clothes. Having transitioned, they're able to comfortably and convincingly (to themselves, I mean) perform their gender in a way that realizes their construal of what "female" looks and feels like.

Seeing drag, for myself, is kinda empowering since I'm not the most masculine male in the world. I haven't gone out in drag but over time I've grown up not to be afraid to wear pink or hold my hands on my hips. Not I identify as male, and these discussions help me understand what I am after, but I understand how drag and trans are different.

Now I don't want to claim that these trans people who dislike drag are ignorance as to what drag is about, but rather that we ALL should be able to get along. This move is adding fuel to a fire really.

By doing this, is it going to make drag queens understand more what is transphobic and stop? I really don't think so. Pride, spreading the love and acceptance for all, should encourage education for many people. This move has an attempt to basically just offend drag queens, saying that they aren't vilified enough and they are privileged or some bullshit, enveloping them all into a group which is apparently inherently transphobic.

I am not part of the LGBTQ+ community, I'm merely an onlooker who has become to feel more comfortable about himself and massively respects the courage others have had to force others to be accepting of who they are.

The point is that we are all human. The first loud drag queen, the first loud gay man, the first loud trans who didn't apologise for who they are inspired all of us to be more accepting of ourselves. I can't pretend that I know the history far too well, but you shouldn't play the game of "who is more vilified than the other".

Otherwise step aside everyone else, the black female lesbian has something to say about the white trans females about who has been oppressed more... and it's not what any of these events should be about.

--------

So in hindsight, I'll step back a bit.

I really, really do see where this is coming from. I have heard really bad transphobic stuff from drag queens IRL before. Anyone can drag, yes, so of course there are horrible bigots. But it isn't the fact that they are drag that does it. Which is why I really don't agree with this ban. Put out a press release saying that members of the same community, will not tolerate ANY phobic slurs etc. to ANY of the other members of the community.

Address the issue and don't propagate it and fuck over the image of drag queens who have really fought for LGBTQ+

 

[MisterGrey3000]

See I've no personal problem with drag either. I agree with all the benefits for have listed. But the point of comparison is between PoC in Holland complaining about Zwate Piet and being told 'no it's a harmless children's tradition we don't want to hear your opinion' and Trans people being told 'no drag is an important form of gender expression and we don't want to hear your opinion'.

It's not about ignoring people's opinions or experiences (at least not for me...being black, effeminate, and queer makes it unreasonable for me to do so)
If trans people feel uncomfortable with cis drag performers and the things they feel they represent, that's fine; there is definitely interesting discussion to be had, and cis people shouldn't dismiss trans people's experiences (good or bad).
Cis men/boys also shouldn't feel entitled to perform and occupy spaces people don't want them in.
However...
The two things you mentioned aren't equivalent; underprivileged feminine non-genderconforming cis men/boys have hurt or even killed themselves in regards to not being able to express their femininity; hell, they've also been disowned and kicked out of their houses for their gender expression.
Drag really is an important outlet for gender expression in the queer community; it is crucial to the identities of noticeable number of young feminine queer men and boys who constantly face effemiphobia/femmephobia from both hetero-assimilist gay men, their parents/family members, and the rest of the straight world.
I haven't heard of anybody hurting or attempting to kill themselves because they couldn't wear curly wigs or smear charcoal on their face and pretend to be servants to a big white dude.
"It's all in good harmless holiday fun!" isn't 1:1 with "this cultural tradition in an underprivileged community serves as an important pillar for gender expression!"

Edit:
Here is a pretty good video specifically regarding the "drag is like trans-female/female black face!" line of thought.
How Drag is Different from Blackface

 

[not_so_special]

I wonder what a comprehensive study would show.

more neutral sources pls?

 

[stufte]

Putting spoilers for offensive language. Here's just a sampling.

Spoiler

"Oh my god, look at that tranny in the dress, he thinks he's a girl!"
"Hey faggot, you cut your dick off yet? I know I'm not a woman--I just do this for fun. You're sick!"
"Look at these trannies in the front. Look at them, thinking they're women. This is what happens when you can't accept that you're just another gay male--it's pathetic!"

And then all the cis gay men start laughing and applauding and the trans people shrink and leave, because even Pride events aren't safe for us.

I'm not saying this never happens, but in the dozen or so pride events I've been to, I've not once heard this kind of "comedy" from drag queens.

 

[Christopher]

Sheesh, it's almost sounds like you expect people to listen to your perspective and your viewpoints on a matter that immediately resonates with you as opposed to ignoring you to allow their outrage to rage on.

This is pretty much you in every thread - not much knowledge about the subject matter yet willing to go on the most liberal outlook you can provide.

Drag Queens are entertainment, it a joint community that makes jabs or comedic as a tool to empower themselves taking away the sting of reality by providing humor to it. I see no problems although I'm not easily offended at all.

 

[VegiHam]

It's not about ignoring people's opinions (at least not for me...)
If trans people feel uncomfortable with cis drag performers and the things they feel they represent, that's fine; there is definitely interesting discussion to be had, and people shouldn't dismiss trans people's experiences (good or bad).
Cis men/boys also shouldn't feel entitled to perform and occupy spaces people don't want them in.
However...
The two things you mentioned aren't equivalent; underprivileged feminine non-genderconforming cis men/boys have hurt or even killed themselves in regards to not being able to express their femininity; hell, they've also been disowned and kicked out of their houses for their gender expression.
Drag really is an important outlet for gender expression in the queer community; it is crucial to the identities of noticeable number of young feminine queer men and boys who constantly face effemiphobia/femmephobia from both hetero-assimilist gay men, their parents/family members, and the rest of the straight world.
I haven't heard of anybody hurting or attempting to kill themselves because they couldn't wear curly wigs or smear charcoal on their face and pretend to be servants to a big white dude.
"It's all in good harmless holiday fun!" isn't 1:1 with "this cultural tradition in an underprivileged community serves as an important pillar for gender expression!"

You're absolutely right. I'm really sorry if the example I picked brought up unwanted connotations for you and stuff. My point was that the desire to ignore the voices of the offended because you like a thing is the same, you get me? I wasn't trying to say that drag and zwarte piet are anything alike, just that the way people act around the two unrelated things is in some ways similar. Some LGBT people don't want to hear about problems in drag like how some Dutch don't want to hear about problems with Zwart Piet, that was all. I'm sorry if I came across offensive or anything.

Edit: I definatly don't want to equate Blackface and drag; that'd be ignoring a whole ton of important nuance.

 

[Nostremitus]

I hate to be that guy, but acronymic etymologies are almost all lies. There are no examples of acronyms becoming words (as opposed to remaining acronyms but becoming conventional) before the twentieth century.

From your same source:



The real etymology of drag is basically unknown, which is not too surprising given that at the time the phrase was developed gay culture was still underground because of the danger of being known to be gay.

Well, Shakespeare's scripts list Drag when an actor is meant to be dressed as a female. I'm not aware of any known earlier usage of the term. Shakespeare being one of the most widely distributed playwrights in the history of man makes it likely that the term he used for a male dressing as a female becoming very widely distributed and used in underground cultures.

There's no absolute proof that this happened for the reason you stated, but the term didn't manifest from nowhere and we have a documented written account of it's use before it became prominent.

I guess the question would be, did Shakespeare create the acronym or did he simply use a term that his actors were already using for themselves?

 

[Erin S Kittens]

more neutral sources pls?

What's wrong with the National Gay And Lesbian Task Force?

 

[And_Gignac]

Drag is a performance art, a self expression of inner restlessness and skills. It has nothing to do with mocking the transgender experience. It mocks gender as a construction, all of it.

Anyway, being oppressed does not give immediate validation to all of your sensibilities. There needs to be logic and solid arguments behind it. And in this case, I personally dont see it.

Putting spoilers for offensive language. Here's just a sampling.

Spoiler

"Oh my god, look at that tranny in the dress, he thinks he's a girl!"
"Hey faggot, you cut your dick off yet? I know I'm not a woman--I just do this for fun. You're sick!"
"Look at these trannies in the front. Look at them, thinking they're women. This is what happens when you can't accept that you're just another gay male--it's pathetic!"

And then all the cis gay men start laughing and applauding and the trans people shrink and leave, because even Pride events aren't safe for us.

eeeeeeh...I have never for the life of me seen a drag queen go into that level of hatefulness. I am sorry you hadto experience that but any drag queen even TRYING to use that kind of "jokes" in any pride would be immediatly booed off the stage and probably see her career destroyed.

 

[PSqueak]

I wanna say im surprised, but im not surprised, been seeing a lot of in fighting among LGBT communities in the net lately, and i have noticed transgender people getting a bit touchy about drag queen like figures (not the most informative of sources, but for example, i have seen a bunch of transgender people lashback against Steven Universe because the scenes of uncle grandpa and greg dressed as Rose were somehow offensive to them), so i expected this sort of thing to happen IRL to some capacity too.

I have mixed feelings about this, i kinda see why TG people would be bothered, i myself am slowly educating myself in all sorts of gender issues, but i always understood the difference between a crossdresser and a drag queen in which the later usually don't attempt to go for an androginous natural look, but instead for a flashy, fabulous and exagerated look that actually ends up dragging attention to the fact that they're males in female clothing, which i believe there is nothing wrong about it, but gives me an idea why a TG person would feel like it's a mockery of who they are.

I think people within the community should not pretend that they don't know what Drag Queens stand for, i know they make some people uncomfortable, but i believe most people within the community know they mean no harm and they're not out to make a mockery of TG people, they just need to accept this.

 

[NastyBook]

Well played being the first to see and react to that.

 

[Circle Jerk]

tl;dr "Cishet white men should never be told 'no'."

Sorry, but that's basically what you're saying. Marginalized groups should be able to organize and feel safe, and not have to be forced to allow entry to someone that makes the organization feel less safe. I would not expect you to understand why trans people not wanting to have cis performers is different from why cis people to want to have trans performers.

No, that's not what I was basically saying. It's what you distorted it to, because it would make it easier to dismiss. I am part of a marginalized group, I get shit on by straight people and gay people all the time. I still don't think that punching up is okay, that discrimination in the face of discrimination is an acceptable choice, or that dismissing one type of discrimination as not being as bad as someone elses discrimination is an intellectually or morally correct position.

That's what my argument is: not whatever you needed to distort it to so you could be condescending to me, and assume that because I disagree with you I'm not a part of a marginalized group, something you've done multiple times in this thread.

I've said it several times in this thread already, but every Pride I've been to featured cis drag queens punching down on trans people during their performances. But that discrimination is apparently okay and worth fighting for?

Sheesh, it's almost sounds like you expect people to listen to your perspective and your viewpoints on a matter that immediately resonates with you as opposed to ignoring you to allow their outrage to rage on.

"Sure, they shit on trans people every year, but how dare you call it a problem?"

Like, look at this. My argument didn't at all have anything to do with what these inane posts are about. Neither of you even bothered to give a shit enough to respond to what I was actually saying, instead you decided to turn me into a trans phobic asshole, all based on the fact that I don't agree with you. Instead you made me into a strawman that's easier to talk down to, dismiss, and turn into a bigot. You aren't good people when you do this. Your cause may be just, but your methods are horrible.

 

[Big Green Anus]

I thought drag queens usually support the gay/trans-gendered community, so this is confusing

 

[Erin S Kittens]

Like, look at this. My argument didn't at all have anything to do with what these inane posts are about. Neither of you even bothered to give a shit enough to respond to what I was actually saying, instead you decided to turn me into a trans phobic asshole, all based on the fact that I don't agree with you. Instead you made me into a strawman that's easier to talk down to, dismiss, and turn into a bigot. You aren't good people when you do this. Your cause may be just, but your methods are horrible.

You accused me of (and I quote) "literally defending discrimination" because I support marginalized people choosing to maintain spaces free of structural oppression. Going by your posts, it sounds like you don't believe in structural inequality, and think that all discrimination is equal--whether it's someone in power crushing the poor, or impoverished folks fighting back against it. Being told that it's wrong to punch up is incredibly dehumanizing.

 

[MisterGrey3000]

You're absolutely right. I'm really sorry if the example I picked brought up unwanted connotations for you and stuff. My point was that the desire to ignore the voices of the offended because you like a thing is the same, you get me?

I'm in complete agreement with you there.
People shouldn't coldly dismiss negative experiences that trans people have had with cis queens and kings just because they like drag or because their personal experiences were positive and inclusive (I've personally never experienced any cis queens being transmisogynistic or transphobic in general conversations or performances but I'd be daft to pretend that it doesn't exist) ; they also really shouldn't go about saying "It's harmless fun! queens and kings should be excused for being bigoted! Grow sense of humor hyuk hyuk hyuk" because that's quite problematic.
Many of us have cis privilege and we experience the world with blinders in regards to transphobia and transmisogyny, so it's important to listen and consider the experiences of trans people in these kinds of matters.

I thought drag queens usually support the gay/trans-gendered community, so this is confusing

Drag queens tend to be queer (Gay/Bisexual/Pansexual/etc.) effeminate men, not trans women and most of them are for LGBT rights; drag deals with transgressive gender expression, where as being trans generally has much more to do with one's gender identity than the way one presents or performs (there are plenty of trans women who wear flannel shirts, makeup-less faces, and jeans for 90% of their lives and still feel that they are women)

Many of these cis (meaning not trans) queens face the awful dehumanizing effects of effemiphobia/femmephobia and homophobia/heterosexism, but they still have male privilege and cis privilege; these boys have their blinders on in regards to the bigotry that both cis and trans women face.
So it only makes sense that trans women would have transphobic and misogynistic experiences in their interactions with a few cis male queens.

 

[Winter John]

I've been friends with one of Glasgow's more prominent members of the trans community for a long time now. Decades in fact. We first met in a shop in Cockburn Street in Edinburgh back in the mid 80s. I was looking at T-shirts and saw this goth chick looking at me so I decided to get a little closer and see what was going on. I slowly made my way over to her until I was standing next to her and realized she was a guy. It was a hell of a surprise. She was the first transvestite I'd ever seen. Anyway, we hit it off and have been good friends ever since. Something that she's mentioned more than once over the years is how gay men look down on trans people. I've been clubbing and worked with a number of gay people and I could see where she was coming from because when I've asked the responses have not been kind. I wouldn't pretend to know much, if anything at all about the gay/trans community but it seems to me that if they can't accept each other then how are they going to convince Conservative America to accept them

 

[SURGEdude]

I wish the organizers of this event would realize that just because you are transgender doesn't automatically make you progressive or for gender equality.

Do the right thing and ignore those who feel uncomfortable by drag.

One of the biggest issues I find with my fellow progressives is the tendency to assume that oppressed or disadvantaged people or groups are somehow magically made up of wonderful liberal individuals lacking the ability to turn around and be oppressive themselves. I think it's a natural overreaction to shitheads who by the very nature of the word, discriminate and assume that all members of that group are inferior and bad. But both arguments ignore the entire concept of equality. People are people, we are in made of the same stuff and able to do the same things. Without society putting us into groups our capabilities would be indistinguishable.

The argument I usually get when I point that out is that because people who are the target of discrimination know what it's like to be shat upon means that it is a near impossibility that they would inflict it on others. In my experience that's bullshit. I've met plenty of racist gay people, plenty of black people who dislike or are prejudiced towards Native Americans, and even between white people in my childhood community in the US tension between Italian Americans and Irish Americans. The biggest offenders and dividers were always the people most invested in their unalterable identity instead of any action in righting a social wrong.

The people who were actively fighting oppression and based their pride on that not on some feature of biology are usually the first to take up the fight of others and least likely to shit on people who have it even worse.

Sadly lots of people seem to have an urge to shit on whoever is, in the perspective of the dominant cultural hierarchy, below them on the totem pole. If they are able to change their position and improve their situation they just leapfrog above new groups who haven't yet been able to progress as far towards equality.

That to me is where the fair minded people in any community find the cause for celebration. Fighting the good fight is a damn good reason to be proud and LGBTQ people have every right to enjoy the efforts and celebrate their hard work. Sadly people like in the OP's example seem to me to fall more into the camp of feeling superior now that progress has been made and because of that supremacy justified in the discrimination and prejudice of groups who are not finding the same success.

TLR Basically that's just a long way of saying you will find prejudiced fucks all over, even in the most discriminated and oppressed peoples. To me that's just a reminder that we are all equal, in good potential, and bad.

 

[BamfMeat]

Well played being the first to see and react to that.

Bish I know you did not just count me out.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

The disconnect you describe is entirely due to Erin's situation being completely divorced from that which is discussed in the article, though. Erin is attempting to map her experiences onto a situation that, according to both the LES's and Pink News's writeups, has nothing to do with what she's describing.

.

 

[mantidor]

Putting spoilers for offensive language. Here's just a sampling.

Spoiler

"Oh my god, look at that tranny in the dress, he thinks he's a girl!"
"Hey faggot, you cut your dick off yet? I know I'm not a woman--I just do this for fun. You're sick!"
"Look at these trannies in the front. Look at them, thinking they're women. This is what happens when you can't accept that you're just another gay male--it's pathetic!"

And then all the cis gay men start laughing and applauding and the trans people shrink and leave, because even Pride events aren't safe for us.

wow

that is appalling... I have never seen any drag queen act even close to that, it usually is the complete opposite, they go into self deprecation and then completely subvert it, the act is "I'm a slut, I'm femme, I'm everything you think is wrong with you... and I'm fabulous for it", it's freaking aggressive, but it's never about mocking "the other" group, whatever that group may be, it's about mocking themselves or whatever expectations people have of them.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Putting spoilers for offensive language. Here's just a sampling.

Spoiler

"Oh my god, look at that tranny in the dress, he thinks he's a girl!"
"Hey faggot, you cut your dick off yet? I know I'm not a woman--I just do this for fun. You're sick!"
"Look at these trannies in the front. Look at them, thinking they're women. This is what happens when you can't accept that you're just another gay male--it's pathetic!"

And then all the cis gay men start laughing and applauding and the trans people shrink and leave, because even Pride events aren't safe for us.

That's fucking awful. I was expecting insensitive trans jokes, but these aren't even jokes at all, just hateful bigotry.

 

[Erin S Kittens]

That's fucking awful. I was expecting insensitive trans jokes, but these aren't even jokes at all, just hateful bigotry.

Makes me think of "This isn't for you, this is for all of us" at the White House Pride dinner.

 

[quesalupa]

It begins?

 

[hateradio]

Drag has nothing to do with what you do with your body or lifestyle ... It is a job like being a clown or a singer

Are you saying that drag queens are clowns who sing?

xD

Putting spoilers for offensive language. Here's just a sampling.

Disgusting. :/


At the end of the day, however, I don't think that blocking drag acts is a good idea. If the act is funny and cute, then it should be allowed, while performers with hateful sentiment should be removed. I would think.

 

[Dead Man]

Dressing in drag mocks the feminine, be you trans girl or cis lesbian

No it fucking doesn't. It can, it is not inherently so. Drag kings would also like a word with you.

Somebody is expressing their gender non-binarism in a way that's different from my expression! Waaah! Stop being problematic!

Pretty much.

 

[THRILLH0]

HRT and SRS are just trans people's way of "expressing" their gender now?

What the fuck am I reading?

 

[MisterGrey3000]

HRT and SRS are just trans people's way of "expressing" their gender now?

What the fuck am I reading?

Yes.
It's a really good way for them to physically/visually assimilate with their gender and feel secure.
What's the problem here??
That's exactly what gender expression is, it has to do with how you express your gender identity in both the mirror and to the wider outside world (HRT and SRS helps immensely with that); trans men and women don't need to be cisnormative in their appearance/physical characteristics in order to identify as men or women, people are entitled to their identity regardless of how they look.

Gender expression is not less important than gender identity in a society run by highly social animals which puts a ridiculous unnecessary amount of effort into making people of all genders strongly associate very specific secondary and (arbitrarily assigned) tertiary sexual characteristics with only two strictly enforced gender identities.

 

[Ratrat]

Disagree so hard. There is probably an interesting discussion regarding this but I wish they hadn't gone all out with a ban to start one. It's just confusing and a horrible look.

 

[Souldestroyer Reborn]

Hahaha wow.

Politically correcting political correctness.

 

[neorej]

For some reason, humanity keeps finding new levels of stupidity...

 

[Reishiki]

This seems rather myopic.

 

[Ahasverus]

Anecdotal, but all my gay friends and trans acquantances have strong opinions against Drag Queens, they say they "ridiculize" their struggle. I'm gay and I know I have nothing in common with those people, it looks more like a fetish, or work, or show to me, than a real case of gender identity, but who am I to judge.

 

[pinkurocket]

Anecdotal, but all my gay friends and trans acquantances have strong opinions against Drag Queens, they say they "ridiculize" their struggle. I'm gay and I know I have nothing in common with those people, it looks more like a fetish, or work, or show to me, than a real case of gender identity, but who am I to judge.

Doing drag and being gay have nothing in common. Yea, drag is mostly performed in gay clubs and it's a gay culture thing, but to look down upon it because you feel it mocks homosexuality is just wrong. Drag is entertainment, nothing more and nothing less. It's playing with gender and performing a character. It is work, it's not a real case of gender identity, all though there are often cases of transgenders experimenting with drag before transitioning.

 

[Le_Samourai]

Ridiculous.

 

[kaye]

I'm trans and I agree, it's ridiculous.

 

[Battersea Power Station]

I'm a little ignorant when it comes to drag. Is it simply a clothing/style choice, or is it a physiological/biological state? (I'm asking unrelated to the news.)

 

[John Kowalski]

Putting spoilers for offensive language. Here's just a sampling.

Spoiler

"Oh my god, look at that tranny in the dress, he thinks he's a girl!"
"Hey faggot, you cut your dick off yet? I know I'm not a woman--I just do this for fun. You're sick!"
"Look at these trannies in the front. Look at them, thinking they're women. This is what happens when you can't accept that you're just another gay male--it's pathetic!"

And then all the cis gay men start laughing and applauding and the trans people shrink and leave, because even Pride events aren't safe for us.

yikes