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Dragon Age Spell combos: grease + fireball = grease fire. TOOLSET confirmed.

NewLib

Banned
Sep 21, 2004
4,304
0
0
I didnt realize this many people did not like KOTOR. Seriously, I still think its the best console RPG since the PSX Generation.
 

Timber

Member
Dec 2, 2007
3,533
0
0
NewLib said:
I didnt realize this many people did not like KOTOR. Seriously, I still think its the best console RPG since the PSX Generation.
Bioware fans only like Baldur's Gate 2. At least the real ones do, anyway.
 

Quazar

Member
Feb 2, 2007
6,458
0
0
Chris Remo said:
The amount of BG2 love in this thread is making me want to check it out. I wonder if it's available through some straightforward legitimate means.

Where are you from? You can pick up BG2/ToB for like $19.99 at gamestop. If not cheaper.
 

HK-47

Oh, bitch bitch bitch.
Oct 24, 2007
49,169
0
1,010
Chris Remo said:
The amount of BG2 love in this thread is making me want to check it out. I wonder if it's available through some straightforward legitimate means.

Yes, its called amazon
 
Sep 3, 2006
3,494
0
1,285
Netherlands
Timber said:
Bioware fans only like Baldur's Gate 2. At least the real ones do, anyway.

I loved KOTOR, I loved Jade Empire (really!), and I loved Mass Effect, but I never could get into Baldur's Gate. The D&D rules are probably to blame for this, because when I started as a mage, I coudn't believe that I could only cast a single spell in a day.
 

gregor7777

Banned
Jan 17, 2007
13,379
0
0
Timber said:
Bioware fans only like Baldur's Gate 2. At least the real ones do, anyway.

Fuck...sorry for wasting everyone's time then. I thought Mass Effect and NWN were pretty good.

/sulks
 

HK-47

Oh, bitch bitch bitch.
Oct 24, 2007
49,169
0
1,010
NewLib said:
I didnt realize this many people did not like KOTOR. Seriously, I still think its the best console RPG since the PSX Generation.

KotOR still has the best atmosphere. People just didnt like the simplified gameplay.

People thinking that this being PC only will automatically bring Bioware back up to BG II standards are mistaken though. Only they themselves can make the choice to go for more length and complexity.

And hey, maybe they wont
 

Teknopathetic

Member
Jun 6, 2004
24,114
4
0
"The amount of BG2 love in this thread is making me want to check it out. I wonder if it's available through some straightforward legitimate means."


You...you haven't played BG2?


Oh my.
 

NewLib

Banned
Sep 21, 2004
4,304
0
0
Timber said:
Bioware fans only like Baldur's Gate 2. At least the real ones do, anyway.

Not true. You are also allowed to like Baldur's Gate (just not as much as Shadow of Amn). Also if you are especially a hardcore Bioware fan, you can throw in MDK2.
 

Durante

Member
Oct 1, 2006
48,836
1
0
peter.metaclassofnil.com
HK-47 said:
People think thats this being PC only will automatically bring Bioware back up to BG II standards are mistaken though.
Sure, but going PC only (still not confirmed by the way) would certainly make the decision to return some complexities easier.

Regarding the earlier question about BG1 mods: this thread has inspired me to make a BG Trilogy replaying thread, where I'll list all the nice stuff and give some directions. Should be done later today or tomorrow.
 

Desi

Member
May 15, 2007
4,232
1
1,120
Baltimore
NewLib said:
I didnt realize this many people did not like KOTOR. Seriously, I still think its the best console RPG since the PSX Generation.
I still love KoToR. It even made watching battles fun. BG atmosphere and characters throw KOTOR in the gutter though.
 

NewLib

Banned
Sep 21, 2004
4,304
0
0
Desi said:
I still love KoToR. It even made watching battles fun. BG atmosphere and characters throw KOTOR in the gutter though.

Okay here is where I throw down the gauntlets. BG2 gameplay and atmosphere top notch. KOTOR has better characters. Irenicus is a better villain than Malak, but your party members in KOTOR are better. Yes, Carth sucks but so does Aerie, Anomen, Valygar, and Nalia. KOTOR story is also better.

Also, Baldur's Gate II isnt perfect for the sheer fact I have to use a mod because Chateau Irenicus is easily the worst part of the game and its unavoidable right from the start.
 

Tobor

Member
Sep 15, 2006
41,041
0
0
NewLib said:
I didnt realize this many people did not like KOTOR. Seriously, I still think its the best console RPG since the PSX Generation.

I'm a little mystified as well. But I loved Mass Effect too, so I'm clearly the enemy around these parts.
 

Lonesome_Raod

Member
Aug 28, 2006
1,331
0
0
I have loved every single Bioware game. They are up there with Bethesda and the rest of the game making gods. Shame I won't have a pc to play this game though. Be the first Bioware game I miss out on.
 

Minsc

Member
Oct 1, 2007
13,901
0
1,200
Eastern Shores
Chris Remo said:
The amount of BG2 love in this thread is making me want to check it out. I wonder if it's available through some straightforward legitimate means.

Too bad Forgotten Realms Deluxe Edition is out of stock, you can order it second hand off amazon uk though. It includes all of Baldur's Gate 1 & 2 & Icewind Dale 1 & 2, along with all of Neverwinter Nights 1 (which really isn't nearly as good, and probably should be ignored). Comes in a nice big box too!

Like mentioned above, there are plenty of other sets with the Baldur's Gate games in them, just search around, it's not too hard to find.
 

Teknopathetic

Member
Jun 6, 2004
24,114
4
0
"Okay here is where I throw down the gauntlets. BG2 gameplay and atmosphere top notch. KOTOR has better characters. Irenicus is a better villain than Malak, but your party members in KOTOR are better. Yes, Carth sucks but so does Aerie, Anomen, Valygar, and Nalia. KOTOR story is also better."


There isn't a single memorable KOTOR character besides HK47. BG2 has Minsc, Viconia, Jan, Edwin, and Korgan. Mazzie's even a better character than the KOTOR cast.
 

Chairman Yang

if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
Sep 14, 2005
7,313
74
1,730
NewLib said:
Also, Baldur's Gate II isnt perfect for the sheer fact I have to use a mod because Chateau Irenicus is easily the worst part of the game and its unavoidable right from the start.
I don't know why so many people hated the beginning dungeon in BG2--I really enjoyed it. It was like a microcosm of the whole game, with some combat, puzzles, cool conversations/riddles, exploration, story, and character development. For an introduction to a game as huge as BG2, isn't that a good approach?
 

Prime crotch

Banned
Nov 8, 2006
14,873
0
0
Portugal
Chairman Yang said:
I don't know why so many people hated the beginning dungeon in BG2--I really enjoyed it. It was like a microcosm of the whole game, with some combat, puzzles, cool conversations/riddles, exploration, story, and character development. For an introduction to a game as huge as BG2, isn't that a good approach?
Yeah but when you restart the game for your nth time it can get very, very annoying.
 

Fragamemnon

Member
Jun 7, 2004
14,306
0
0
NewLib said:
I didnt realize this many people did not like KOTOR. Seriously, I still think its the best console RPG since the PSX Generation.

KOTOR is a good game. I liked playing it. I liked the Obsidian sequel even more though!

I think the problem is that the long-term Bioware fans KNOW that Bioware is up to task of making a game with some serious meat to its gameplay (and by that, I mean things like deep character customization and itemization as well as tactical combat with lots of different choices to make) but they've mostly punted on doing so ever since that game.

Mass Defect is the poster child for this, the combat is made for the console fps plebes, character customization and abilities are lmost completely meaningless, and the itemization is perhaps the worst I have ever seen in recent memory from any major RPG.

In contrast, when playing BG2 we'd deal with things like well-timed short duration buffs, setting traps, item swaps to stack saving throws, spell sequences, spell penetration values, crowd control, sneak attack positioning, friend fire from area damage, timing cone effects properly, instant death spells, and even crazy shit like time stop-and-pop sequencer unloading. We'd have talking swords, items with five or six modifiers, class and racial specific items, and we'd spend long periods min-maxing our gear for successs. And it was awesome.

It's those kind of things that I think a lot of people are looking to Dragon Age for. We'd like the wonderfully written Bioware storyline, but we'd also like some real substance under the hood as well.
 

clutha

Neo Member
Apr 15, 2008
90
0
0
IN, USA
Unison said:
Post BG2, BioWare has made underwhelming game after underwhelming game, yet I can't wait to see what they do next. :D

Hoping for the best....

fingers crossed here too. underwhelming may be a bit much but I do believe that the BG I & II games are yet to be outdone.
 
Teknopathetic said:
"The amount of BG2 love in this thread is making me want to check it out. I wonder if it's available through some straightforward legitimate means."


You...you haven't played BG2?


Oh my.
Honestly, it was always hard for me to get into that style of gameplay, and there's nothing inherently appealing about the setting for me. I've played hardly anything from the genre. I'm happy to give it another shot, though. I'm ordering BG2 from Amazon today.
 

HK-47

Oh, bitch bitch bitch.
Oct 24, 2007
49,169
0
1,010
Teknopathetic said:
"Okay here is where I throw down the gauntlets. BG2 gameplay and atmosphere top notch. KOTOR has better characters. Irenicus is a better villain than Malak, but your party members in KOTOR are better. Yes, Carth sucks but so does Aerie, Anomen, Valygar, and Nalia. KOTOR story is also better."


There isn't a single memorable KOTOR character besides HK47. BG2 has Minsc, Viconia, Jan, Edwin, and Korgan. Mazzie's even a better character than the KOTOR cast.

Jolee and Canderous disagree. KotOR was even better in this regard...but sadly we all know how that turned out
 
Jun 13, 2004
7,263
14
1,515
Chris Remo said:
Honestly, it was always hard for me to get into that style of gameplay, and there's nothing inherently appealing about the setting for me. I've played hardly anything from the genre. I'm happy to give it another shot, though. I'm ordering BG2 from Amazon today.
I tend to agree...but if you don't like the setting...do yourself a favor and play planescape torment if you haven't. It was great for me because it's not the typical dungeons and dragons setting. It's absolutely one of the most incredible games I've ever played, and I barely even know how D&D works.

Teknopathetic said:
"Okay here is where I throw down the gauntlets. BG2 gameplay and atmosphere top notch. KOTOR has better characters. Irenicus is a better villain than Malak, but your party members in KOTOR are better. Yes, Carth sucks but so does Aerie, Anomen, Valygar, and Nalia. KOTOR story is also better."


There isn't a single memorable KOTOR character besides HK47. BG2 has Minsc, Viconia, Jan, Edwin, and Korgan. Mazzie's even a better character than the KOTOR cast.

Don't forget the minsc's miniature giant space hamster.
 

RJT

Member
Sep 18, 2007
5,023
0
0
Fragamemnon said:
In contrast, when playing BG2 we'd deal with things like well-timed short duration buffs, setting traps, item swaps to stack saving throws, spell sequences, spell penetration values, crowd control, sneak attack positioning, friend fire from area damage, timing cone effects properly, instant death spells, and even crazy shit like time stop-and-pop sequencer unloading. We'd have talking swords, items with five or six modifiers, class and racial specific items, and we'd spend long periods min-maxing our gear for successs. And it was awesome.
I just finished replaying BG2 and now you made me want to do it again...
 

Timber

Member
Dec 2, 2007
3,533
0
0
Baldur's Gate 2 was my favourite game for a long time, but after some soul-searching I decided to move it to second place. This was due to my complete inability to replay the game, and believe me I tried. I always stop playing in the Underdark, or right after I leave it and the map opens up again. That means I've only played Throne of Bhaal once :(

It's the best RPG ever made, but it never clicked with me the way it did when I first played it.


Now everyone's expecting Dragon Age to be BG3, even though Bioware has repeatedly stated it won't. Let's see what happens :p Me, I'm gonna love it, even though I'm not too fond of high fantasy settings anymore.
 

zoku88

Member
Dec 25, 2006
19,492
0
0
32
Will GAF kill me if I haven't played BG2...

and have no plans to do so...

?
 

Timber

Member
Dec 2, 2007
3,533
0
0
Fragamemnon said:
Yeah yeah, console gaming plebs. Such a pedestrian game, you know?

Obviously an action-RPG doesn't have the depth of a straight RPG like Baldur's Gate. Bioware never said it would yet people were still expecting it and now they're all disappointed. It's so utterly predictable at this point. And Bioware's combat and item systems in their post-D&D games have been less comprehensive because, well I just gave it away there. It's not D&D anymore, they don't have volumes upon of volumes of rulesets to rely on. But whatever... fucking console kiddies!
 

Peronthious

Member
Jan 5, 2008
4,770
0
0
Virginia
zoku88 said:
Will GAF kill me if I haven't played BG2...

and have no plans to do so...

?

Head. Stake. Now.
:D

To tell you the truth, I still haven't played it, but it's in the queue somewhere. So much stuff in my pile of shame.
 

Timber

Member
Dec 2, 2007
3,533
0
0
Teknopathetic said:
High fantasy settings as in anything involving orcs, dwarves, elves, dragons really. If there's any thematic content in Dragon Age that puts it in another subgenre of fantasy then okay sure. I'm really not well versed when it comes to the delicacies of these descriptions :) But it's the kind of stuff that was overdone in the 90s because of CRPGs having their roots in the pen & paper stuff. I really prefer it now when developers stray away from that and come up with novel settings. The Elder Scrolls is an offender when it comes this this. I'd rather it didn't have goblins and elves, and I'd rather Dragon Age did not have that title :)
 

Fragamemnon

Member
Jun 7, 2004
14,306
0
0
Timber said:
Yeah yeah, console gaming plebs. Such a pedestrian game, you know?

It was made for the mass market, a Budweiser of RPGs if you will.

Obviously an action-RPG doesn't have the depth of a straight RPG like Baldur's Gate. Bioware never said it would yet people were still expecting it and now they're all disappointed. It's so utterly predictable at this point. And Bioware's combat and item systems in their post-D&D games have been less comprehensive because, well I just gave it away there. It's not D&D anymore, they don't have volumes upon of volumes of rulesets to rely on. But whatever... fucking console kiddies!

What's to prevent them from making detailed, quantitative rules and stats to govern combat in a way that keeps with action spirit of the game? Other games have done it, it's not impossible, and especially not for a company like Bioware. Why were the class abilities so little, and so completely lacking in synergy with both other abilities and the gear in the game? Why did a lion's share of the game's itemization consist of <blah_item> <roman_numeral> with incremental improvement?

It's not about not working with D&D for their more recent games. It's been about both reducing the number of gameplay decisions the player makes and the importance of those decisions, resulting a simpler game-for the fucking console kiddies, as you say-rather than their older PC fanbase, who has largely been left behind as they made their last two big games (KOTOR and ME).
 

Doc Evils

Member
May 3, 2007
7,962
0
0
London, UK
Teknopathetic said:
"Okay here is where I throw down the gauntlets. BG2 gameplay and atmosphere top notch. KOTOR has better characters. Irenicus is a better villain than Malak, but your party members in KOTOR are better. Yes, Carth sucks but so does Aerie, Anomen, Valygar, and Nalia. KOTOR story is also better."


There isn't a single memorable KOTOR character besides HK47. BG2 has Minsc, Viconia, Jan, Edwin, and Korgan. Mazzie's even a better character than the KOTOR cast.


Minsc and Boo is AFW.
 

Teriyaki

Member
Apr 18, 2007
610
0
0
Teknopathetic said:
"Okay here is where I throw down the gauntlets. BG2 gameplay and atmosphere top notch. KOTOR has better characters. Irenicus is a better villain than Malak, but your party members in KOTOR are better. Yes, Carth sucks but so does Aerie, Anomen, Valygar, and Nalia. KOTOR story is also better."


There isn't a single memorable KOTOR character besides HK47. BG2 has Minsc, Viconia, Jan, Edwin, and Korgan. Mazzie's even a better character than the KOTOR cast.

Agree 100% even though you left Yoshimo out of your BG2 char list.
 

Chairman Yang

if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
Sep 14, 2005
7,313
74
1,730
Timber said:
High fantasy settings as in anything involving orcs, dwarves, elves, dragons really. If there's any thematic content in Dragon Age that puts it in another subgenre of fantasy then okay sure. I'm really not well versed when it comes to the delicacies of these descriptions :) But it's the kind of stuff that was overdone in the 90s because of CRPGs having their roots in the pen & paper stuff. I really prefer it now when developers stray away from that and come up with novel settings. The Elder Scrolls is an offender when it comes this this. I'd rather it didn't have goblins and elves, and I'd rather Dragon Age did not have that title :)
If Dragon Age is as George R. R. Martin-esque as the developers seem to be aiming for, then "high fantasy" would be a horribly inaccurate label for the game. Yes, the thematic content will make the setting different. Things like elves, dragons, etc. won't change that--as long as they're uniquely executed.
 

Timber

Member
Dec 2, 2007
3,533
0
0
Fragamemnon said:
What's to prevent them from making detailed, quantitative rules and stats to govern combat in a way that keeps with action spirit of the game? Other games have done it, it's not impossible, and especially not for a company like Bioware. Why were the class abilities so little, and so completely lacking in synergy with both other abilities and the gear in the game? Why did a lion's share of the game's itemization consist of <blah_item> <roman_numeral> with incremental improvement?

It's not about not working with D&D for their more recent games. It's been about both reducing the number of gameplay decisions the player makes and the importance of those decisions, resulting a simpler game-for the fucking console kiddies, as you say-rather than their older PC fanbase, who has largely been left behind as they made their last two big games (KOTOR and ME).
Largely been left behind. :lol Such dramatisation always from you folks. Just earlier someone said Oblivion felt like a betrayal.

But yeah, of course you're entitled to the second coming of the best game ever after you've been left in the freezing cold for so long! They owe it to you, don't they?
Really man, all Bioware's games have been released on PC, every single one, and PC owners got the better deal every time. But none of this counts of course because they weren't the best games ever like Baldur's Gate 2.

You want to ignore the effect abandoning D&D systems had on depth an balance in combat, go ahead. They went from 2D backgrounds to 3D environments before consoles even entered the equation, and it lead to epic backlash. Gone was the complex party interaction, happened when Bioware was still PC-exclusive. And then they went for the option of every line of dialogue in their game voices. More depth gone.

Baldur's Gate 2 is a better RPG than all their others, but there is a multitude of reasons their later games, starting from the smash PC hit Neverwinter Nights, lack its complexity, none of them involve the word console. A company doesn't owe you jack, and while a gamer's sense of entitlement is a ridiculous thing to begin with, it's even worse when it's some disgruntled BG2 fanatic lamenting how Bioware abandoned them. I think it's about time you lot opened up No Orcs Allowed so you can have your way with each new Bioware game when it doesn't turn out to be something it was never supposed to be in the first place.
 

Ventrue

Member
Jul 19, 2007
4,099
0
0
30
I disliked NWN and BGI; I guess they were both crowded out by the awesomeness of BGII (I played II before I).

However, since then I have been able to move on. BGII is still awesome, but KOTOR, ME and even JE have their redeeming qualities. If nothing else, JE and ME are extremely cinematic. ME even brings this into the dialogue, though in JE it's only really in the cutscenes.

Despite its bad gameplay and forgettable characters, I still love JE for some of the cutscenes, like the big twist.

EDIT:
NewLib said:
Yes, Carth sucks but so does Aerie, Anomen, Valygar, and Nalia.

I'd like to point out that, once you realise how annoying Anomen is, he's actually completely hilarious. He's seriously the world's worst Paladin. When Keldorn wants to kill Viconia, Anomen claims that she is evil, but that he didn't realise just how hot the Drow were, so maybe she should live.
 

nelsonroyale

Member
Sep 16, 2006
21,980
0
0
Chairman Yang said:
If Dragon Age is as George R. R. Martin-esque as the developers seem to be aiming for, then "high fantasy" would be a horribly inaccurate label for the game. Yes, the thematic content will make the setting different. Things like elves, dragons, etc. won't change that--as long as they're uniquely executed.

George Martins books have a lot of high fantasy elements in there, just with a different lick of paint...
 

Dina

Member
Sep 29, 2006
5,372
0
0
The Netherlands
Ventrue said:
I'd like to point out that, once you realise how annoying Anomen is, he's actually completely hilarious. He's seriously the world's worst Paladin. When Keldorn wants to kill Viconia, Anomen claims that she is evil, but that he didn't realise just how hot the Drow were, so maybe she should live.

The 'best' party of BG2 (the evil one, Viconia, Edwin, Korgan, Yoshino/Imoen and someone else) is also the one with the least amount of nutjobs. Running BG2 with Anomen, Minsc, Aerie, Imoen en Jan is so much better.
 

NewLib

Banned
Sep 21, 2004
4,304
0
0
Dina said:
The 'best' party of BG2 (the evil one, Viconia, Edwin, Korgan, Yoshino/Imoen and someone else) is also the one with the least amount of nutjobs. Running BG2 with Anomen, Minsc, Aerie, Imoen en Jan is so much better.

Im sorry no party with Edwin in could be lacking in nutjobs.
 

Timber

Member
Dec 2, 2007
3,533
0
0
Ventrue said:
Despite its bad gameplay and forgettable characters, I still love JE for some of the cutscenes, like the big twist.
Yess... it's so cute when he touches the baby's nose 8)
Although I really disliked the final twist. Holy crap saw that one coming a mile away. They tried to do the KotOR trick again, dumbed it down for console kiddehs, and fucked it up royally.

really though, the twist in kotor when you learn the identity of the 'villian' is so epic. in jade empire the bad guy turns out to be, drumroll, your old creepy bearded mentor with a suspicious past. you don't say! and they pull that shit at the end of the game so they dont give you any time to develop any interest in it because the game is over!

You can't say the game has forgetable characters when there's there's that little girl possessed by demons in it. although some of them were one-trick ponies, like that wretched good-for-nothing cook.
 

Ventrue

Member
Jul 19, 2007
4,099
0
0
30
Timber said:
Yess... it's so cute when he touches the baby's nose 8)
Although I really disliked the final twist. Holy crap saw that one coming a mile away. They tried to do the KotOR trick again, dumbed it down for console kiddehs, and fucked it up royally.

really though, the twist in kotor when you learn the identity of the 'villian' is so epic. in jade empire the bad guy turns out to be, drumroll, your old creepy bearded mentor with a suspicious past. you don't say! and they pull that shit at the end of the game so they dont give you any time to develop any interest in it because the game is over!

Yes, it was a bit boring when he went for "I AM NOW GENERIC EVIL TAKE OVER THE EMPIRE ALL POWERFUL." However, the Siege of Dirge cutscene itself was just so brilliant in how they retold it. I did see the twist coming, but it was excellently executed.
 

bengraven

Member
Nov 28, 2005
40,964
15
1,445
42
I adored KOTOR and really liked the few hours I put into BG2. I felt it really aged when I played it though. I'll check it out again sometime: I have the collection.