• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
  • The Politics forum has been nuked. Please do not bring political discussion to the rest of the site, or you will be removed. Thanks.

Dragon Ball Super is very bad and may be worse than GT.

How do you feel about Dragon Ball Super?

  • Dragon Ball Super is Good

    Votes: 71 54.6%
  • Dragon Ball Super is Bad

    Votes: 21 16.2%
  • Dragon Ball Super is Bad and worse than GT

    Votes: 18 13.8%
  • Never seen it

    Votes: 20 15.4%

  • Total voters
    130

kunonabi

Member
Dec 2, 2010
18,704
4,248
1,000
Yeah, go on, shit on that. Still doesn’t change the fact that Vegeta really takes a back seat in GT. Moreso in GT (and the Z movies) than in Z and Super.

Vegeta gets treated way worse in Super. I mean instead of finally getting his closure with Frieza and finally defeating him to save the day we end up with Goku having to turn back time and one-shot Frieza himself to end Resurrection F. That moment right there cemented that Vegeta does not and will not ever matter.

Everyone takes a back seat to Goku in GT so it isn't like Vegeta is a special case. I mean that's the main reason GT is as bad as it is.
 

KOMANI

KOMANI
Nov 5, 2013
3,773
1,485
845
New York
Vegeta gets treated way worse in Super. I mean instead of finally getting his closure with Frieza and finally defeating him to save the day we end up with Goku having to turn back time and one-shot Frieza himself to end Resurrection F. That moment right there cemented that Vegeta does not and will not ever matter.

Everyone takes a back seat to Goku in GT so it isn't like Vegeta is a special case. I mean that's the main reason GT is as bad as it is.
I disagree. I recently rewatched GT, and he’s such a chump. At least in Super he’s a main character. Has his own form, has the “my Bulma” scene, has a daughter, has a ward, is the first one to land a significant strike on Jiren.
 

Saber

Member
Jan 30, 2019
3,932
3,634
660
Super is not bad, but its not good either. The Galaxy tournament was interesting(even have female sayians fighting)and Black Goku was good aside what they did with Trunks and they failing to beat him. They even have the decency of showing number 17 life after the events of the Android Saga.

Its doesn't compare to Z but still better than GT.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Dacon and Blade2.0

Doom85

Member
Mar 3, 2018
1,514
1,475
400
I'm not super far into Super (pun not intended) but Beerus and Whis alone are better than any of the new characters that were in GT. Seriously, I really got zero enjoyment from that whole series.
 

Omeggos

Member
Jan 12, 2018
6,563
6,967
645
Dragon ball super’s faults involve pacing, the story takes too long to get good and retelling the movies was an asinwd move no one asked for.

But its highs (goku vs hit, vegito vs zamasu, ultra instinct goku, ToP climax) i would argue rival some of the best moments of Z.
I literally cant say the same thing about GT. The first arc felt like a lazy retread of original dragon ball, none of the villains were particularly interesting and the american music was fucking atrocious (even though i liked faulconer’s work on DBZ, but if i recall gt was someone else) and on top of that, people whine that super focused too much on goku, did you happen to forget that goku took the entire spotline in GT? Or what I liked to call ‘Goku Time’ all the characters got side-lined, hell piccolo was even permanently killed off.

The only saving grace of gt is SSJ4 but Ill take the slightly less original designs of SSJG and SSJB with a more dynamic story than GT’s non-canon shit anyday.
 

Jon Neu

Banned
Jan 21, 2018
4,275
8,986
755
Republic of Catalonia
(even have female sayians fighting)

You say that like that is a good thing on it's own. Not only their design is boring as fuck, they also have a very uninteresting personality.

When one of them transformed into a Broly clone, I couldn't facepalm enough.



This shit looks straight outta Code Lyoko. It's fucking insipid and embarassing.

I'm not super far into Super (pun not intended) but Beerus and Whis alone are better than any of the new characters that were in GT. Seriously, I really got zero enjoyment from that whole series.

Funny, I would argue Baby alone is better and more interesting than any of the new characters of Super. Beerus has gone from "I'm the most badass ever" to "I'm a scared clown" in a blink.

And SSJ4 is a far better transformation than any of the new transformations (how many silly transformations we had in Super already?) in which you just change the color of the hair of your character.

Fight wise, both GT and Super are horribly bad (Super is even worse, though), but at least GT had good animation.

But its highs (goku vs hit, vegito vs zamasu, ultra instinct goku, ToP climax) i would argue rival some of the best moments of Z.

All those moments have zero weight behind them, there is nothing at stake, the animation is subpar, the fights are so poorly choreographiated and executed it's not even funny. The characters and the plots are stupid to the point of parody.

Those moments had nothing on DBZ, if Super was a new series unrelated to Dragon Ball, it would have been canceled long time ago because it's simply not good at all.
 

royox

Member
Nov 3, 2013
4,664
3,020
775
34
1. Super Saiyan Blue being stronger than SSG is nonsense and I will continue to refuse to believe it.


Super saiyan Blue is the super saiyan state of the SS.God.

Not gonna answer everything but most of your confusions are because you never read the original Manga and can't tell whar stuff is canon or not. For example Pikoon doesn't exist in the manga, he's Filler, not canon.
 

Shaqazooloo

Member
Nov 3, 2018
2,173
2,522
555
Canada
Super almost broke me when I first watched it, I don't think i'll ever rewatch it again, I'd rather watch the entirety of GT... twice, before i'd watch a single full episode (That isn't episode 84 because I actually loved that episode) of Super. It was absolutely abysmal and made no sense, especially the Goku Black arc.

I'm still trying to figure out Goku Black's origin's and they legitimately make zero sense. Goku Black is a time paradox, he created himself by going back in time using the time ring that doesn't allow people to go back in time and caused an investigation on himself, Whis, Beerus and Goku go to universe 10 and meet Zamatsu, which is how the zero mortal plan came to be but all that happening would also have to mean that the second meeting does not happen because it would be the event that causes Zamatsu demise in that timeline which would mean that after that first meeting the whole investigation got dropped and Goku went back to farming for some reason. The issue being, they start the investigation but don't follow up on it at all. Trunks and Goku Black would've still appeared in the past in future Zamatsu's timeline even though it's the timeline he was created in (which still doesn't make sense considering how time travel works in DragonBall...) though the writing would suggest that that's not the case, which is impossible since the first meeting is how Zamatsu comes up with the idea to target Goku specifically and Goku Black would have to show up because he's the base for the paradox in the first place.

Then you have Whis saying erasing Zamatsu created another timeline in which that did not happen. Completely mind boggling. How does that even work? If it happened when Beerus erased him in the timeline we see then what happened in the other timeline? Did Beerus' attack just not come out? Remember in that timeline Zamatsu still becomes Goku Black, so after Beerus didn't erase Zamatsu did they just stand there for a few awkward minutes then head back to Earth and let Zamatsu continue with his plan? They knew all about his plan and who he was and what would happen, they were also stronger than him guaranteeing he would meet his end... but somehow that doesn't happen in that timeline because reasons...

And that's just two plot points that are infuriating to me, I haven't talked about the lame as hell fight scenes, how dumb Goku is, how much the show seems to enjoy wasting my time, the extreme disconnect in the writing especially in the ToP arc, or how it felt like the episodes in the ToP arc were a result of writers who were enjoying a happy meal at there local McDonald's and after they had finished eating and smeared there greasy lips on a napkin then remembered that they had to write an episode for Super, so they write on the grease covered napkin the plot for an upcoming episode and submit it TOEI and they just say "meh they'll do" and then proceed to throw the napkin in the trash bin and produce the episode. In other words the writing is trash.

Super is one of those rare cases where I wish a series died and remained dead instead of getting a continuation.

Edit: Worded it a little better.
 
Last edited:
  • Fire
Reactions: Jon Neu

Shaqazooloo

Member
Nov 3, 2018
2,173
2,522
555
Canada
Vegeta gets treated way worse in Super. I mean instead of finally getting his closure with Frieza and finally defeating him to save the day we end up with Goku having to turn back time and one-shot Frieza himself to end Resurrection F. That moment right there cemented that Vegeta does not and will not ever matter.

Everyone takes a back seat to Goku in GT so it isn't like Vegeta is a special case. I mean that's the main reason GT is as bad as it is.
If that wasn't enough, they also have Vegeta overhear Bulma and Goku having a conversation in which Bulma says that they are all depending on Goku implying that she has very little faith in her own husband to save them and instead of having Vegeta prove himself capable, they not only opt to prove Bulma right in the end, but also to have Vegeta cry about it as well...




Techniques like these? Manga only!
I don't know whether or not I should feel ashamed that I've seen this...
I like his work...
 
  • LOL
Reactions: SLoWMoTIoN

Saber

Member
Jan 30, 2019
3,932
3,634
660
You say that like that is a good thing on it's own. Not only their design is boring as fuck, they also have a very uninteresting personality.

When one of them transformed into a Broly clone, I couldn't facepalm enough.



This shit looks straight outta Code Lyoko. It's fucking insipid and embarassing.

Its a matter of taste really. I for one like the simplistic design, though I agree that the second female is boring as fuck.

Not sure I would compare to Code Lyoko. I mean, Odd hair its pretty straightfoward. Without the purple point, he could be basically any super sayian in terms of hair. I still like Code Lyoko though, its a great series(well, at least the animated one).
 

dbztrk

Member
Dec 16, 2009
3,045
15
890
I choose to believe that Dragon Ball Super never existed. At Dragon Ball GT has Dan Dan Kokoro Hikareteku going for it.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: NoviDon

KOMANI

KOMANI
Nov 5, 2013
3,773
1,485
845
New York
If that wasn't enough, they also have Vegeta overhear Bulma and Goku having a conversation in which Bulma says that they are all depending on Goku implying that she has very little faith in her own husband to save them and instead of having Vegeta prove himself capable, they not only opt to prove Bulma right in the end, but also to have Vegeta cry about it as well...

I don't know whether or not I should feel ashamed that I've seen this...
I like his work...
That wasn’t implied. When Goku saves the day 9/10 times, it’s only natural for people to expect him to do it again. You’re thinking like Vegeta by assuming she implied she has no faith in him. Vegeta has the best moments in super with the exception of the UI stuff towards the end.

You know why Super is better than GT? Even though, overall, it had worse animation and it was less original, it had moments. Goku flipping and using an energy ball to grind over Kefla’s energy beam to deliver the final blow, the UI stuff where deadpan Goku is dodging everything, then roaring and connecting on Jiren. It brought us new characters like Hit. I don’t hate either series, but when it comes to GT, I struggle to find a single moment to define the series.

Edit: maybe the moo-stache scene.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Shubh_C63
Dec 25, 2018
3,884
3,758
770
Manchester, England
The obvious answer is watch Claymore.

Everyone had a different power and those who get stronger either take each other's powers or a time skip where some go into hiding that they get super good at the powers.

And hoo boy you will hate the protagonist by the end of it because she essentially gains 3 powers that are not her own AND inherits the best Claymore's powers.
 
Last edited:
  • Strength
Reactions: SinDelta
Dec 25, 2018
3,884
3,758
770
Manchester, England
...So should we actually watch it or is it shit?

I definitely recommend it but there is one scene I was uncomfortable with at Episode 2 or 3. Other than that one scene, I loved the whole series and it gets really weird late on.

One of the most OP Claymores gets killed early on (it's not a spoiler as it tells you how Claire becomes a Claymore in the first place)

It follows the most inexperienced Claymore called Claire (I think she is Number 47 in Rank), but it follows a few of them half way through, including my favourite character Miria (Number 11 or 9....I forget which one), who's got an amazing Phantom ability.

Some of them do die in it against the Yoma (the enemies they face to protect humans), but the Claymores have the Yoma inside them that if they use too much of their power, they become the Yoma themselves, the High Yomas (I think that is their name) are mostly ex-Claymores that went berserk and there are 3 vying for power (one of them is sort of good?).

They are all women except one of the High Yoma's who is a dude.

Although the series is known for nudity, you don't really see any detailed genitalia or nipples.

The anime cuts off on Volume 11 of the Manga but I recommend both the Anime and the Manga.

The only problem with the Anime is that it doesn't resolve a LOT of things.



I think this is Miria.
 
Last edited:
  • Strength
Reactions: SinDelta

Fbh

Member
Dec 6, 2013
15,675
11,490
1,070
I have casually followed Super and I wouldn't call it worse than GT, but it's no the big sequel I would have wanted for Z either.
Beerus is a great addition to the cast, better than any new character from GT IMO, but most of the story arcs have been rather boring and nothing has felt as big as any of the big sagas from Z IMO.

What I'll give GT is that I liked SSJ4 more than any of the new forms in Super and they made a better job of making it feel like a big deal, almost on the level of SSJ1 and 2 which came at big moments. Super introduced SSJ God in a movie so it was like an hour and a half of buildup instead of a whole story arc, and then they quickly discard it for SSJ Blue which they attain by just training and was, again, introduced in a movie while fighting a color swapped Frieza.
Ultra Instinct at least felt like a bigger deal but we don't know if it will become a regular thing and chances are it also quickly get discarded for something new.


...So should we actually watch it or is it shit?

The biggest problem with it is that it doesn't tell the whole story so you'll have to read the manga and IMO it really dropped in quality as it went on.
Still enjoyable but I wouldn't call it a must watch
 
Oct 10, 2018
2,631
1,484
605
www.kickstarter.com
Vegeta gets treated way worse in Super. I mean instead of finally getting his closure with Frieza and finally defeating him to save the day we end up with Goku having to turn back time and one-shot Frieza himself to end Resurrection F. That moment right there cemented that Vegeta does not and will not ever matter.

Everyone takes a back seat to Goku in GT so it isn't like Vegeta is a special case. I mean that's the main reason GT is as bad as it is.

Goku didn't do anything, Which turned back time, and Vegeta won the match both times either way, just the first time Freeza took everyone with him. Also you're talking about a movie arc, Vegeta took out 3 guys in U6, was more useful than Goku in FT, and got rid of most of his wins in the Zeno tournament saga without assistance unlike Goku who needed the help of like 3 guys including Hit.
 
Oct 10, 2018
2,631
1,484
605
www.kickstarter.com
Super almost broke me when I first watched it, I don't think i'll ever rewatch it again, I'd rather watch the entirety of GT... twice, before i'd watch a single full episode (That isn't episode 84 because I actually loved that episode) of Super. It was absolutely abysmal and made no sense, especially the Goku Black arc.

I'm still trying to figure out Goku Black's origin's and they legitimately make zero sense. Goku Black is a time paradox, he created himself by going back in time using the time ring that doesn't allow people to go back in time and caused an investigation on himself, Whis, Beerus and Goku go to universe 10 and meet Zamatsu, which is how the zero mortal plan came to be but all that happening would also have to mean that the second meeting does not happen because it would be the event that causes Zamatsu demise in that timeline which would mean that after that first meeting the whole investigation got dropped and Goku went back to farming for some reason. The issue being, they start the investigation but don't follow up on it at all. Trunks and Goku Black would've still appeared in the past in future Zamatsu's timeline even though it's the timeline he was created in (which still doesn't make sense considering how time travel works in DragonBall...) though the writing would suggest that that's not the case, which is impossible since the first meeting is how Zamatsu comes up with the idea to target Goku specifically and Goku Black would have to show up because he's the base for the paradox in the first place.

Then you have Whis saying erasing Zamatsu created another timeline in which that did not happen. Completely mind boggling. How does that even work? If it happened when Beerus erased him in the timeline we see then what happened in the other timeline? Did Beerus' attack just not come out? Remember in that timeline Zamatsu still becomes Goku Black, so after Beerus didn't erase Zamatsu did they just stand there for a few awkward minutes then head back to Earth and let Zamatsu continue with his plan? They knew all about his plan and who he was and what would happen, they were also stronger than him guaranteeing he would meet his end... but somehow that doesn't happen in that timeline because reasons...

And that's just two plot points that are infuriating to me, I haven't talked about the lame as hell fight scenes, how dumb Goku is, how much the show seems to enjoy wasting my time, the extreme disconnect in the writing especially in the ToP arc, or how it felt like the episodes in the ToP arc were a result of writers who were enjoying a happy meal at there local McDonald's and after they had finished eating and smeared there greasy lips on a napkin then remembered that they had to write an episode for Super, so they write on the grease covered napkin the plot for an upcoming episode and submit it TOEI and they just say "meh they'll do" and then proceed to throw the napkin in the trash bin and produce the episode. In other words the writing is trash.

Super is one of those rare cases where I wish a series died and remained dead instead of getting a continuation.

Edit: Worded it a little better.

The issues with Black is similar to Dragonabll Z trunks, but Super made it worse because they fully wanted to combine the Alternate timeline effect of time travel with the "affect the past change the future" type of time travel and failed to combine them into something that makes sense. Even Beerus said that killing Zamatsu would go across all timelines which directly contradicts the time travel rules.

They try and semi-cover themselves by having it not work, but that actually makes it worse because they would then have to MAKE UP a reason for why Beerus' plan didn't work so they sad the time ring prevented that Zamatsu from being destroyed in the future timeline which still doesn't make sense.

Also the time portal that allowed Goku Black to go to the past where Trunks went to in his time machine also doesn't make sense since the time ring created the path and it's only supposed to go forward in time temporarily and never comes up again.

There's also all those off-screen deaths, in the Future Black and alternate timeline Zamatsu (which also doesn't make sense) apparently killed all the Supreme Kais, normal Kais, GoD's, and also some of the angles most likely which oddly Zeno nor his top staff notice because when Future Zeno is summoned he's wondering what the heck is happening.

Also taking the body of a "inferior" mortal doesn't make any sense at all when you take motivations into account.

Also whis saying that Beerus created another timeline only happened because Future Zamatsu has a time ring, but oddly, Whis reversing time, even if 3 minutes, to stop Freeza doesn't create a time ring.
 
Oct 10, 2018
2,631
1,484
605
www.kickstarter.com
Also they made Goku way to dumb in Super, like 5x dumber than Japanese DBZ dumb, and was basically directly responsible, through stupidity for aruably every arc in Super, while in DBZ some of them were accidents or were some unknown off screen like Gero.

Most American DBZ fans I know can barely stand super because in the American DBZ made everyone bad asses with tude and super action fighting so they were more put off by Gokus radical stupidity than the Japanese fans were.
 
  • Love
Reactions: Shaqazooloo

Shaqazooloo

Member
Nov 3, 2018
2,173
2,522
555
Canada
The issues with Black is similar to Dragonabll Z trunks, but Super made it worse because they fully wanted to combine the Alternate timeline effect of time travel with the "affect the past change the future" type of time travel and failed to combine them into something that makes sense. Even Beerus said that killing Zamatsu would go across all timelines which directly contradicts the time travel rules.

They try and semi-cover themselves by having it not work, but that actually makes it worse because they would then have to MAKE UP a reason for why Beerus' plan didn't work so they sad the time ring prevented that Zamatsu from being destroyed in the future timeline which still doesn't make sense.

Also the time portal that allowed Goku Black to go to the past where Trunks went to in his time machine also doesn't make sense since the time ring created the path and it's only supposed to go forward in time temporarily and never comes up again.

There's also all those off-screen deaths, in the Future Black and alternate timeline Zamatsu (which also doesn't make sense) apparently killed all the Supreme Kais, normal Kais, GoD's, and also some of the angles most likely which oddly Zeno nor his top staff notice because when Future Zeno is summoned he's wondering what the heck is happening.

Also taking the body of a "inferior" mortal doesn't make any sense at all when you take motivations into account.

Also whis saying that Beerus created another timeline only happened because Future Zamatsu has a time ring, but oddly, Whis reversing time, even if 3 minutes, to stop Freeza doesn't create a time ring.
The time ring nonsense was especially baffling to me. I really don't understand how it prevented Zamatsu's destruction if he wasn't wearing it at the moment when Beerus destroyed him, it just doesn't make sense that the reason would be because a future version was wearing it, I can't wrap my head around that. If the time rings only allow someone to go into the future temporarily then wouldn't that mean that Goku Black should've returned to his own time and not be able to stay in the Future Trunks time indefinitely? How he even knew about the Future Trunk timeline in the first place is a complete mystery.

Zamatsu going into the future to get unlimited wishes is a real head scratchier. Who collected the Super Dragon Balls every year? If it was a different version of Zamatsu then wouldn't that mean their would be multiple versions of Zamatsu's trying to get them? If it wasn't Zamtsu, then why was someone collecting them every year despite getting used regularly by an unknown person?

Also whis saying that Beerus created another timeline only happened because Future Zamatsu has a time ring, but oddly, Whis reversing time, even if 3 minutes, to stop Freeza doesn't create a time ring.
Speaking of, Whis scolds Beerus for causing a new timeline to appear because he destroyed Zamatsu. What does he do after this? Go to another timeline and get Beerus to destroy Zamatsu, which according to Whis would create another timeline where that does not happen...
 

Shaqazooloo

Member
Nov 3, 2018
2,173
2,522
555
Canada
Also they made Goku way to dumb in Super, like 5x dumber than Japanese DBZ dumb, and was basically directly responsible, through stupidity for aruably every arc in Super, while in DBZ some of them were accidents or were some unknown off screen like Gero.

Most American DBZ fans I know can barely stand super because in the American DBZ made everyone bad asses with tude and super action fighting so they were more put off by Gokus radical stupidity than the Japanese fans were.
I actually started hating Goku while watching Super. I never thought I would get to that point but it was really bad. I have never before wished for Goku to be gone more then I have watching Super.
 
Oct 10, 2018
2,631
1,484
605
www.kickstarter.com
The time ring nonsense was especially baffling to me. I really don't understand how it prevented Zamatsu's destruction if he wasn't wearing it at the moment when Beerus destroyed him, it just doesn't make sense that the reason would be because a future version was wearing it, I can't wrap my head around that. If the time rings only allow someone to go into the future temporarily then wouldn't that mean that Goku Black should've returned to his own time and not be able to stay in the Future Trunks time indefinitely? How he even knew about the Future Trunk timeline in the first place is a complete mystery.

Zamatsu going into the future to get unlimited wishes is a real head scratchier. Who collected the Super Dragon Balls every year? If it was a different version of Zamatsu then wouldn't that mean their would be multiple versions of Zamatsu's trying to get them? If it wasn't Zamtsu, then why was someone collecting them every year despite getting used regularly by an unknown person?


Speaking of, Whis scolds Beerus for causing a new timeline to appear because he destroyed Zamatsu. What does he do after this? Go to another timeline and get Beerus to destroy Zamatsu, which according to Whis would create another timeline where that does not happen...
Actually Black had the time ring, that's the excuse they gave for why Black wasn't destroyed, present Zamatsu, the one you're talking about, did die.

Actually the issue I have with it isn't even really black. Yes it's annoying how Black having the time ring "somehow" prevented his deletion (which itself is a hole) but the other Zamatsu that was with Black, from what I could see and tell did NOT have a time ring and was ALSO fine. so...................................................................what?

As for Goku Black and time, Black didn't go into the future, the Zatmatsu that he partnered with that's from Trunks timeline is another dimension, its not the future of Blacks timeline because its a different timeline altogether, and for some reason Black decided not to take Zamatsu $2 with him to his dimension but take over that Zamatsus dimension instead because...........he did.

In theory every timeline should have a Zamatsu betray someone and use the super Dragon balls to get gokus body. which is mortal, and then go to another timeline to recruit another Zamatsu. It's so poorly though out it can't possibly work, the very small excuse they seem to use is that when Beerus killed Zamatsu in the present it indeed did destroy him across all timelines EXCEPT Black who had a time ring, and Trunks zamatsu who did not have a time ring because...........uh........

Also again this whole thing was triggered by Gokus visit, Zamatsu yes, already hated mortals but didn't act on it until Goku was involved for some reason, and he kills his guardian to steeal his time ring.

BTW, this also means the time rings can randomly jump dimensions as well and not only go into the future (and the past which is isn't supposed to do at all.)

To say Super is badly written is an understatement, it's a rush job that the writers assume will pass by insulting the viewers intelligence and hoping the brand will let them get away with it and people aren't paying attention and in part it worked, and that just makes me dislike it more. Half the time they were not even trying and some of it is clearly intentional.

Speaking of, Whis scolds Beerus for causing a new timeline to appear because he destroyed Zamatsu. What does he do after this? Go to another timeline and get Beerus to destroy Zamatsu, which according to Whis would create another timeline where that does not happen...

The whole trunks arc was pointless (just like U6 outside setting up for Zeno tourney) they didn't win, they lost 3 times, the 3rd time being the erasure of the universe, and the solution is to for Whis to warn that dimensions Beerus to kill him before it happens which would yes, create a time ring. Bust also since this Zamatsu wouldn't have a time ring that Zamatsu should already be dead by default due to present Beerus killing him so what?

Then there's the fact no one though to ask Future Zeno to just restore everything after he destroyed the bad guy mist. Who by leaving, and destroying that timeline SHOULD create at least Two time rings by the authority of the universes who can't follow the established rules himself.

Whis also again, should have made a time ring with frezza but the shows consistency is like water.
 
Oct 10, 2018
2,631
1,484
605
www.kickstarter.com
I actually started hating Goku while watching Super. I never thought I would get to that point but it was really bad. I have never before wished for Goku to be gone more then I have watching Super.

It was so poorly written they basically needed Goku to cause all the problems in every single arc. ALL of the arcs are his fault and involve him being insanely stupid, or childish "i wanna wannna wanna fightzzzz" and to be fair almost everyone was made more stupid. ChiChi and Bulma are idiots and are also barely relevant. The Goten and Kid trunks are useless, Gohan is barely in it, and Android 17 has an off-screen family at a reserve having no real fight since Piccolo during cell in Z yet can fight SSB which is the BETTER form of SSG which almost destroyed the universe with 3 shockwaves.

Beerus only really started threatening earth because of Goku dumb challenge which got him interested in exploring further in the first place.

Freeza is obvious.

U6 was Goku whining.

Trunks arc was LITERALLY Goku Whining and stocking Zamatsu around beggin him like a dog.

Zeno tourney was also Gokus fault and he forgot about it until Goku reminded him so you can argue that's two points again him.

Let's not forget how they tried to insult their viewers intelligence by saying that the tournament was always going to happen to cover-up it was all Gokus fault and the universes would be erased anyway only to learn that was also a lie and any wish that wasn't to restore all the erased universe would have resulted in the erasure of everything. Because............yeah.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Shaqazooloo

Azurro

Member
Jun 11, 2018
2,114
3,719
420
I'm sorry to resurrect this thread, but during the pandemic my inner kid kind of rediscovered anime thanks to watching JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, and I'm finally watching Dragon Ball Super...and I have to say, wtf happened to this?

I watched the tournament and I'm beginning the Trunks arc and I just can't get myself to enjoy this. Setting aside that the animation seems a little cheap, what happened to Goku? Granted, I watched the latino dub of Z when I was a kid, but Goku in Super is a complete fucking idiot, he's unbearable. I mean, in Z he was still innocent, perhaps care free and a little distracted, but he wasn't outright stupid. In this one, all his interactions outside of fighting just make me cringe, it's like bad fanfic of someone that never watched Dragon Ball Z.

I also know that Toriyama likes to write comedy, but all of these bad attempts of humor just cause me to fast forward a hell of a lot, they are always robbing scenes of emotional weight, of what little there is of it. The new character designs are just odd. That new supreme being, whatever, that looks like an egg on its side that appeared at the end of the tournament, I don't know what Toriyama is thinking. Whis is alright, and even Beerus grows on you, but the rest of them they are just lazy and uninspired.

I don't know, the tone of the whole thing is just off, it doesn't know if it wants to be a straight up comedy, the dark parts are not serious enough, and this Goku...Jesus H. Christ, he's an imbecile. I kind of want to see what happens with Goku Black, but I'm pretty disappointed by it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Shaqazooloo

Hatemachine

Member
Mar 7, 2021
266
490
300
It's not great but it's a hell of a lot better than the dumpster fire that is GT. It's pretty much carried by Beerus and Whis, who are both hilarious. Biggest problems with it is the pacing, nothing is given the time to breathe and build up.
 

YCoCg

Member
Apr 25, 2020
2,145
2,845
405
Setting aside that the animation seems a little cheap,
Oh it is, it has a slight style change on the second half once the Tournament of Power arc starts and then you'll get a few episodes by this one animator called Yuya Takahashi who just nails the style and his episodes are brilliantly animated, ...which only makes it worse when the quality drops again in the surrounding episodes:



 
Last edited:

lachesis

Member
Jun 17, 2004
3,843
1,092
1,665
I think Dragon Ball, really reached the climax at Freeza Saga, and generally think that Toriyama should have finished the story at that point. I remember waiting every week till the magazine would come out, just to find out what happens next!

Cell saga was good. Worthy follow-up of Freeza saga, but not as good or intense for my take. Majin Bu saga - at least to me was pretty forgettable. Every single new characters, I wasn't really too fond of - nor interested in. Perhaps because of that - I didn't watch GT either.

I watched the whole Dragon Ball Super... as much as I loved seeing my favorite characters on TV screen, they just made Goku more idiotic 2-bit man child, that at certain point - I almost gave up, and wasn't even that enthused him finally winning, or whatnot - because I knew he would become more powerful and win somehow - thanks to that whole Shonen manga formula, which, honestly is little hard to get excited about these days as I've become more jaded, looking for something more of fresh take.

It did had some good parts though... but I don't think it was a masterpiece or that great either. Even though it's supposed to be the canon storyline... my memories of good Dragon Ball manga ends at Cell series.
 

Batiman

Danger: male feminist
Feb 11, 2020
2,496
2,960
580
I'm sorry to resurrect this thread, but during the pandemic my inner kid kind of rediscovered anime thanks to watching JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, and I'm finally watching Dragon Ball Super...and I have to say, wtf happened to this?

I watched the tournament and I'm beginning the Trunks arc and I just can't get myself to enjoy this. Setting aside that the animation seems a little cheap, what happened to Goku? Granted, I watched the latino dub of Z when I was a kid, but Goku in Super is a complete fucking idiot, he's unbearable. I mean, in Z he was still innocent, perhaps care free and a little distracted, but he wasn't outright stupid. In this one, all his interactions outside of fighting just make me cringe, it's like bad fanfic of someone that never watched Dragon Ball Z.

I also know that Toriyama likes to write comedy, but all of these bad attempts of humor just cause me to fast forward a hell of a lot, they are always robbing scenes of emotional weight, of what little there is of it. The new character designs are just odd. That new supreme being, whatever, that looks like an egg on its side that appeared at the end of the tournament, I don't know what Toriyama is thinking. Whis is alright, and even Beerus grows on you, but the rest of them they are just lazy and uninspired.

I don't know, the tone of the whole thing is just off, it doesn't know if it wants to be a straight up comedy, the dark parts are not serious enough, and this Goku...Jesus H. Christ, he's an imbecile. I kind of want to see what happens with Goku Black, but I'm pretty disappointed by it.
It’s honestly worth it for the Tournament of power arc. Ya it’s still stupid but it’s fun. I personally don’t care for the future trunks arc and everything before that. You might enjoy the ending if you stick with it. Some episodes have great animation in that arc. The quality is up and down with some episodes.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Azurro

Jon Neu

Banned
Jan 21, 2018
4,275
8,986
755
Republic of Catalonia
I think Dragon Ball, really reached the climax at Freeza Saga, and generally think that Toriyama should have finished the story at that point. I remember waiting every week till the magazine would come out, just to find out what happens next!

Cell saga was good. Worthy follow-up of Freeza saga, but not as good or intense for my take. Majin Bu saga - at least to me was pretty forgettable. Every single new characters, I wasn't really too fond of - nor interested in. Perhaps because of that - I didn't watch GT either.

I watched the whole Dragon Ball Super... as much as I loved seeing my favorite characters on TV screen, they just made Goku more idiotic 2-bit man child, that at certain point - I almost gave up, and wasn't even that enthused him finally winning, or whatnot - because I knew he would become more powerful and win somehow - thanks to that whole Shonen manga formula, which, honestly is little hard to get excited about these days as I've become more jaded, looking for something more of fresh take.

It did had some good parts though... but I don't think it was a masterpiece or that great either. Even though it's supposed to be the canon storyline... my memories of good Dragon Ball manga ends at Cell series.

The Boo saga still had it's moments, but everything was too convoluted at that point and the formulaic formula was pretty evident by then. GT is irredemable trash and Super is even worse.

But DB up to the Freezer arc was the best anime ever.
 
  • Like
Reactions: lachesis

Neolombax

Member
Aug 3, 2016
1,253
509
420
Malaysia
At this point, I don't have any reason to care about Dragonball anymore. The fights are monotonous, nothing exciting really happens. Its all the same power, qi blasts, power up and explosions. There's no difference from character to character apart from who can power up more. Goku going super instinct was Dragonball trying to be different but in the end, it was more explosions.

I liked Bleach in the beginning because their Zanpakutou's really differentiated the fights and characters, but in the end it became who can make bigger explosions again. Then again, you could argue all manga has this issue.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Shaqazooloo

Goro Majima

Kitty Genovese Member
Sep 2, 2007
31,654
4,807
1,470
I thought Super was great and the Tournament of Power arc is my favorite since the Cell Saga. I really love when Dragonball has a huge cast of fighters doing cool shit which is probably why the whole endless Buu Saga didn't really thrill me.
 

JimmyRustler

Member
Jun 17, 2006
10,412
2,613
1,630
I'm in the final strech of Super right now and honestly think it's even better than Z. Would only rate it slightly worse than the Original Dragonball because it had more charme and humor (and nostalgia of course). Also I think that Goku is a bit weird in Super at times but then again it's not that far fetched for him to become like this as he gets older.

Aside from that I think that Super is extremely entertaining and unlike Z has a really thight progression. Love it and hope they continue the anime at some point.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Goro Majima

JSoup

Member
Jun 20, 2013
4,230
2,358
790
California
Both GT and Super are their own special brand of dumb.
But where GT kind of just fucked around, tossing big numbers and call backs left and right, Super.......is doing all of that as well, but it's at least entertaining.
 
  • Praise the Sun
Reactions: Shaqazooloo

ShirAhava

Plays with kids toys, in the adult gaming world
Jun 10, 2008
3,922
1,526
1,310
I'm a bit drunk but

Anyone else remember being a dragonball fan on the internet in the late 90s/early 2000s(planetnamek FTW)

EVERYONE hated GT like 99.9% of the fanbase hated GT

then it finally aired on TV and these dumb babbys actually thought it was good the db fanbase was never the same

Super is ok but GT is a fucking joke esp the shit after the baby saga that shit was boarderline unwatchable
 

Shubh_C63

Member
Dec 6, 2016
533
317
385
India
After cell saga, I never thought DBZ about consistency and plot. It's basically excuse for bigger better fights.


Super did just that. The plots were okish, the pacing is horrible (no defending it), but it had its moments.

The soundtrack, Jiren, Goku UI future hope, Jiren & Soundtrack again. Later parts of the tournament of power kept me entertained.

Real question is, What do you think of Dragon Ball Heroes ??
 

Ixion

Member
Sep 18, 2010
2,093
714
895
Yeah, holistically Dragon Ball Super is not very good, but it has great individual episodes and moments sprinkled throughout.

The early sagas from Dragonball were good fun and often hilarious and surprisingly raunchy, but the golden era of the Dragonball franchise is the Piccolo saga from Dragonball through the end of the Frieza saga in DBZ. That is top-notch stuff right there.

The Cell saga is also great, but starts to show flaws, and the Buu saga has great aspects but also really annoying aspects. GT had some cool fights, but for the most part was boring and hard to watch.
 
Last edited:
  • Thoughtful
Reactions: Shaqazooloo
Jul 6, 2015
5,541
5,012
660
Super really needs to do better at building up big moments. The only big moment they've done a good job building up for is Ultra Instinct. DBZ had so much build for big moments, the biggest one of course was Gohan unlocking his hidden power at the end of the Cell Saga.

Super keeps teasing so many things that fall flat, like they teased that Beerus was the one that ordered Planet Vegeta to be destroyed back in the Goku vs Frieza fight and now finally Vegeta found out and it was such a disappointment.
 

NahaNago

Member
Aug 29, 2014
4,008
1,376
525
I need to rewatch GT since I barely remember it but Super for me was pretty disappointing. Ultra instinct was the best thing about it. Changing the hair color is just an cheap and easy toy color change. Goku became more stupid in this series. Broly was pretty good except for that weird music selection for the fight. Super just felt like wasted potential.

Super gave us Broly, Moro and Granolah so it's better
Moro was super boring for me.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Shaqazooloo

NoviDon

Member
May 31, 2020
154
332
255
I think the reason why I can find some joy in watching GT, and can't stomach Super, is the difference in the level of respect to the source work. In GT the artwork is the same, the characters act the same, and yes, I didn't really like where they went with the direction of the story lines, but they didn't try to be overly ambitious with the complexities of the stories, and go over their heads, writing themselves into knots. See bad guy, figure out how to beat bad guy. Not everyone is going to be the storyteller at the level of Akira Toriyama, its why he is special and legendary... It was a respectful nod to the fans who were desperate for more content in the Z fighter universe...

Super upsets me. I wish it were never made. like others have said the animation in super is constantly subpar, one of the biggest and more revered fiction based franchises, has large swaths of subpar animation. how the fuck does that happen?... and also the writing is trash, the jokes aren't funny, the villains are bland, and some of the characters aren't the same personality wise as Z. It feels like a big budget fan fiction some rich producer guy that isn't a fan of the show decided to greenlight becuase he heard dragonball fans will buy anything with goku on it. It feels like a cashgrab and disrepectful to the source material IMO. If I were Toriyama i'd be disgusted watching that shit, but happy for those sweet free royalty checks.