DriveThruRPG sells "Tournament of Rapists", owner responds...poorly when called out

[The Technomancer]

Okay so DriveThroughRPG is a decently well known site in the tabletop community for buying manuals and modules for games like Dungeons and Dragons online. They're not huge (I don't think), but they're far from a no-name site either; they were the first result when I was looking to buy some Shadowrun modules last year

Apparently they're now selling this:

People are, understandably, upset about this. Some publishers are pulling their products:

Effective immediately, Exploding Rogue Studios has suspended sales of all of its titles via DriveThruRPG. A game was released to DriveThru called Tournament of Rapists. It is a horrendous title for a product that makes the RPG industy less inclusive and welcoming. In fact, it is openly hostile to everything we feel RPGs should represent or stand for.
DriveThruRPG has not pulled the title, and has responded extremely poorly to the situation.
This suspension of sale is indefinite. We are working to get our own sales portal active immediately. If you agree with our choice of action on this matter, please let DriveThruRPG know.

Others are just calling them out (Erik Mona runs Paizo, who publishes Pathfinder)

But the owner of DriveThru really doesn't seem to think there's anything wrong here:

So yeah, I don't think I'll be giving them any of my business anytime soon.

(there's much more including the full conversation around these tweets documented here: http://jessicalprice.tumblr.com/post/127951942358/games-sure-are-classy
Its really not much better)

 

[AlteredBeast]

Games are not art. In art, you can discuss slavery, sexual perversion and rape, and a host of other adult topics and treat them with seriousness and respect for how evil they are. In gaming, adult topics such as these are never executed well and serve no gaming purpose.

 

[The Technomancer]

Games are not art. In art, you can discuss slavery, sexual perversion and rape, and a host of other adult topics. In gaming, adult topics such as these are never executed well and serve no gaming purpose.

I wouldn't go that far, but the content in question doesn't appear to have artistic intentions on its mind. Its rape for indulgence, not rape for examination

 

[Squalor]

Games are not art. In art, you can discuss slavery, sexual perversion and rape, and a host of other adult topics and treat them with seriousness and respect for how evil they are. In gaming, adult topics such as these are never executed well and serve no gaming purpose.

Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain says otherwise.

Your argument is invalid.

 

[AlteredBeast]

Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain says otherwise.

Your argument is invalid.

TPP deals with rape in a gaming aspect? News to me.

 

[KC Denton]

TPP deals with rape in a gaming aspect? News to me.

It does not deal with it in a particularly insightful or meaningful manner, from what I've heard.

 

[JDSN]

Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain says otherwise.

Your argument is invalid.

Hahaha

 

[Squalor]

TPP deals with rape in a gaming aspect? News to me.

That is the stupidest thing I've ever read.

Anything that's in the game is a gaming aspect.

 

[Maha Kali]

They should just post a trigger warning on that site and call it a day.

 

[- J - D -]

The game's description does read like both male and female characters can kill and rape equally, so in some sense it is inclusive, I suppose.

 

[Squalor]

They should just post a trigger warning on that site and call it a day.

Trigger warnings trigger me, though.

I need a trigger-warning caveat.

 

[The Technomancer]

I won't say you can't have a worthwhile look at rape in a gaming experience (merely because everything can theoretically be examined in any medium) But this title certainly doesn't seem to be that

 

[Kyuur]

Games are not art. In art, you can discuss slavery, sexual perversion and rape, and a host of other adult topics and treat them with seriousness and respect for how evil they are. In gaming, adult topics such as these are never executed well and serve no gaming purpose.

Table top gaming is as much acting and writing as it is "gaming" in most cases, so I think that hardly applies here.

 

[Box of Bunnies]

Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain says otherwise.

Your argument is invalid.

I'm sure we're going to get insightful, artistic examination of serious topics from the man that brought us the vagina bomb

 

[Slayven]

So Rapelay but with dice?

 

[xeris]

This is pretty big. DriveThruRPG and its associated sites are the biggest PDF sellers in the tabletop business and one of the best conduits for indie games. Tabletop RPGs, especially in the indie scene, can and have covered mature and adult topics in a sensitive way. Saying they can't is like saying novels should never look at the darker side of humanity. That said, this game isn't that.

Apparently DriveThru feels that they need to carry all content regardless of merit. I can understand that opinion to a point, but in this case it's indefensible. If they don't carry F.AT.A.L (considered one of the most misogynistic games ever), then they can't justify carrying this.

 

[John Kowalski]

Games are not art. In art, you can discuss slavery, sexual perversion and rape, and a host of other adult topics and treat them with seriousness and respect for how evil they are. In gaming, adult topics such as these are never executed well and serve no gaming purpose.

You just nulled any degree of valuable discourse that could have happened in this thread. I hope you're happy.

 

[HK-47]

Games are not art. In art, you can discuss slavery, sexual perversion and rape, and a host of other adult topics and treat them with seriousness and respect for how evil they are. In gaming, adult topics such as these are never executed well and serve no gaming purpose.

*looks at Charnel Houses of Europe*

Yeah I'm gonna say you are wrong on that. Also nice job on the discussion shift. Was debating the artistic merit of tabletop games really your goal or did you just wanna derail?

 

[Rudimental]

So surreal. I bought the Stalker RPG through this place.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

I've purchased just over $375 in products from DriveThruRPG and had planned to continue to purchase more. However I will be suspending any future purchases from them as long as they continue to carry titles such as 'Tournaments of Rapists'. I've let them know that as well, and hopefully enough other customers have also shown similar sentiments so that DriveThruRPG will think twice about the decision to carry that product.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

Games are not art. In art, you can discuss slavery, sexual perversion and rape, and a host of other adult topics and treat them with seriousness and respect for how evil they are. In gaming, adult topics such as these are never executed well and serve no gaming purpose.

Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain says otherwise.

Your argument is invalid.

I'm not sure which of these posts is more absurd.

 

[POWERSPHERE]

So much sexual frustration, its sad the amount of resentment that neglected men can justify.

 

[Desi]

They should just post a trigger warning on that site and call it a day.

Pretty much.

 

[The Technomancer]

I've purchased just over $375 in products from DriveThruRPG and had planned to continue to purchase more. However I will be suspending any future purchases from them as long as they continue to carry titles such as 'Tournaments of Rapists'. I've let them know that as well, and hopefully enough other customers have also shown similar sentiments so that DriveThruRPG will think twice about the decision to carry that product.

Yup I basically wanted to just let people know

 

[Permanently A]

Games are not art.

http://www.si.edu/Exhibitions/Details/The-Art-of-Video-Games-840

 

[NoblesseOblige]

I received the following response from DriveThruRPG in regards to this:

We spoke to the publisher and author of this title. They decided to withdraw the title from sale. It is no longer listed on our marketplace. The publisher may choose to republish the title later. If they decide to republish it, we have asked but not demanded that they consider some changes to the title.

A more detailed blog post from our CEO is forthcoming after the weekend and staff being out of office.

We appreciate your feedback and your business. Please let us know if we can be of any further assistance.

 

[BladeoftheImmortal]

It's fantasy. So what's all the hubbub, bub?

 

[Tertullian]

Games are not art. In art, you can discuss slavery, sexual perversion and rape, and a host of other adult topics and treat them with seriousness and respect for how evil they are. In gaming, adult topics such as these are never executed well and serve no gaming purpose.

What an awful position.

Not that it matters in this case. Obviously "Tournament of Rapists" does not deal with the issue of rape well at all.

 

[Tertullian]

http://www.tenkarstavern.com/2015/08/wtf-were-they-thinking-tournament-of.html?m=1

Comment section here where the creator defends his work.

 

[Codeblue]

Games are not art. In art, you can discuss slavery, sexual perversion and rape, and a host of other adult topics and treat them with seriousness and respect for how evil they are. In gaming, adult topics such as these are never executed well and serve no gaming purpose.

I'm going to recommend Drakengard to you. It's a terrible game, but it touches on pretty much everything you described.

 

[Zukuu]

That topic is being handled way too sensitive for some reason. It's okay to play/depict an evil guy and slaughter and murder everyone in games and movies, but when it comes to rape it's taboo? Why? It's not like it affects real life people in either case (obviously). Seems a bit hypocritical to me if you compare it.

Well obviously I haven't read the book, so I don't know what's the actual content, but I don't think it condones rape, seeing how he even put misogynist in the description. It also seems it affects both genders. The mere depiction of it shouldn't be bannable, if murder, gore and brutality is ok. Depends on the actual content of the book tho. It's always a fine line in these cases. When goes a movie/game/book too far? E.g. "Hatred" has gone too far imo. If it's on that level, get rid of it.

 

[Apt101]

Don't talk about, joke about, dramatize, fictionalize, or even mention rape, and it will go away.

 

[Carcetti]

I wish that was the worst tabletop RPG I've heard of. It's not. Probably not even close. There are some absolutely insane, perverted, racist psychos out there self publishing their own fantasies in the form of RPGs. The mistake Drivethru made was publishing this particular poop.

RPG.net review of F.A.T.A.L. is a classic if you want to get your mind blown. http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/14/14567.phtml. Some choice excerpts from the game book, magic item loot.

35. Jewy Jewbacca, of: Whosoever dons this armor will acquire a nose twice the size and a manhood half the size. Further, the wearer will become extremely greedy and fight to the death for one silver piece. Finally, the wearer acquires 2 inches of hair all over their body, resulting in halving their Facial Charisma and Bodily Attractiveness. While hairy, the wearer must bathe every 1d6 hours or smell foul. The armor may be removed at any time and the wearer will return to normal.

50. Nigrous Nincompoopery, of: Whosoever dons this armor experiences a loss of 1d100 points from each sub-ability of Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma. The ass of the wearer will grow by 50% and be abnormally high. If the wearer is male, then those around him are 80% likely to believe that his manhood has increased, though it has not. The skin of the wearer becomes cursed and dark as night. Disposition turns to UI. Temperament becomes phlegmatic. The eyes of the wearer are visible 3 miles away at night. The wearer will have a body odor for 1d10 feet. On the bright side, the Physical Fitness of the wearer increases by 10%. The armor may be removed at will.

 

[Siegcram]

Don't talk about, joke about, dramatize, fictionalize, or even mention rape, and it will go away.

I say don't treat it as a sport and go from there.

 

[Tacitus_]

Someone needs to roll for anal circumference

 

[Chariot]

I wish that was the worst tabletop RPG I've heard of. It's not. Probably not even close. There are some absolutely insane, perverted, racist psychos out there self publishing their own fantasies in the form of RPGs. The mistake Drivethru made was publishing this particular poop.

RPG.net review of F.A.T.A.L. is a classic if you want to get your mind blown. http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/14/14567.phtml. Some choice excerpts from the game book, magic item loot.

Fatal is amazingly bad. A fried told me about it and it's ridicilois character creation where you throw dice on the size of your butthole.

 

[Sir Blaming]

I'm not sure which of these posts is more absurd.

Both.
Btw, it's pretty much your choice to say what is art and what is not (does not make it right or wrong). And frankly, you are right, gaming does not discuss issues like rape and other mature topic in a good execution, but what matters is we continue to promote people effort in trying (if they are actually trying mind you), and not ridicule and deny any to all effort.

Basically, don't be a dick and promote good behavior, and that is clearly what you are not doing.
Edit: Wrong conclusion. its more "don't be so closed minded, gaming can do more". Sorry about that.

 

[Gattsu25]

Wasn't DriveThruRPG also recently hacked with hashed credit card details stolen?

http://support.drivethrurpg.com/entries/69850204-Credit-Card-Data-Breach-Q-A

 

[Zaptruder]

How is it that we can be in a culture that recognizes that media violence has minimal impact on actual violence...

And then also be so completely and utterly terrified of any and all depictions of sex and sex violence?

I mean... is rape fantasy a thing that we've decided is completely and utterly inappropriate as a society now?

 

[DiscoJer]

Bear in mind that DTRPG doesn't really check your products at all, it's more or less automated.

You upload and it goes on sale immediately. (I've got 9 products on there myself for old school D&D)

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Wasn't DriveThruRPG also recently hacked with hashed credit card details stolen?

http://support.drivethrurpg.com/entries/69850204-Credit-Card-Data-Breach-Q-A

Yes. As a customer of theirs I had to have a new credit card issued to me because of the breach.

How is it that we can be in a culture that recognizes that media violence has minimal impact on actual violence...

And then also be so completely and utterly terrified of any and all depictions of sex and sex violence?

I mean... is rape fantasy a thing that we've decided is completely and utterly inappropriate as a society now?

There's a significant between depictions of soldiers killing soldiers, cops killing armed criminals, etc. and depictions of raping the innocent. There are times when depicting such an act in media may hold some sort of merit when it comes to worthwhile discussion, but it is extremely rare to accomplish that. In any case this is saying absolutely nothing about rape fantasies. I'm in the kink scene and know many who engage in rape role-playing. That is perfectly fine and acceptable given they are consenting adults who share the fantasy. Fantasies these persons holds themselves is not even comparable as the same thing as a game in which 'rewards' the player with the opportunity to rape their bested opponents.

 

[PHOENIXZERO]

What kind of professional uses a generic Twitter display image?

 

[Zaptruder]

Yes. As a customer of theirs I had to have a new credit card issued to me because of the breach.



There's a significant between depictions of soldiers killing soldiers, cops killing armed criminals, etc. and depictions of raping the innocent. There are times when depicting such an act in media may hold some sort of merit when it comes to worthwhile discussion, but it is extremely rare to accomplish that. In any case this is saying absolutely nothing about rape fantasies. I'm in the kink scene and know many who engage in rape role-playing. That is perfectly fine and acceptable given they are consenting adults who share the fantasy. Fantasies these persons holds themselves is not even comparable to the same thing as a game in which 'rewards' the player with the opportunity to rape their bested opponents.

How are they so different though? I mean example simulated rape porn (you'll find it all across the internet by simply typing in rape porn into google)... and then taking that thing and making it gameable? What's the invisible line that's crossed?

And are combatant violence the only kind of violence we allow in media? In big popular media titles, we frequently see lawless killing for all sorts of reasons - from GTA to Kill Bill. No one blinks an eye there.

I mean... doesn't it really just boil down to an issue of harm caused?

What's the vector of harm caused in this sort of media over other more passive forms of media? Why does it only apply to just sexual violence and not more generalized violence?

If we can recognize that rape fantasies are just that... then can't we also recognize that such a thing can exist in different contexts and just be that? A fantasy or form of escapism?

The notion that such things create a slippery slope in behaviour has been counteracted by many studies into both video game violence and pornography.

Moreover, the argument that it triggers PTSD rape survivors falls flat on its face when again, rape fantasy exists in other media, and when there are many PTSD sufferers of violence as well (especially in the military, with military shooters). And that the few studies that have been done on triggering seem to find that it's not something that can be readily predicted - and doesn't need to be triggered by obvious cues.

More than anything... it really just seems like we've draw this arbitrary moral line in the ground based on unscrutinized social mores and everyone has just gone with it, because it's too much trouble to fight against. Like the blurring of genitals in porn in japan, or home ownership associations.

 

[hobblygobbly]

Games are not art. In art, you can discuss slavery, sexual perversion and rape, and a host of other adult topics and treat them with seriousness and respect for how evil they are. In gaming, adult topics such as these are never executed well and serve no gaming purpose.

That is more of the issue with some people making games than the medium itself. The medium offers endless possibility, it's what creators express.

Music, painting, games, etc are just the canvas for the creator/artists to deliver/express with. None of these mediums have inherent limitations on this expression. Plenty of music is absolute trash that is just about "pussy and cash money" for example. If you compare pop music to other forms of music it has many common issues just like games do, a lot of it is juvenile, similar to a lot of AAA games, but that's not music or games as a medium's fault.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

How are they so different though? I mean example simulated rape porn (you'll find it all across the internet by simply typing in rape porn into google)... and then taking that thing and making it gameable? What's the invisible line that's crossed?

And are combatant violence the only kind of violence we allow in media? In big popular media titles, we frequently see lawless killing for all sorts of reasons - from GTA to Kill Bill. No one blinks an eye there.

I mean... doesn't it really just boil down to an issue of harm caused?

What's the vector of harm caused in this sort of media over other more passive forms of media? Why does it only apply to just sexual violence and not more generalized violence?

If we can recognize that rape fantasies are just that... then can't we also recognize that such a thing can exist in different contexts and just be that? A fantasy or form of escapism?

The notion that such things create a slippery slope in behaviour has been counteracted by many studies into both video game violence and pornography.

Moreover, the argument that it triggers PTSD rape survivors falls flat on its face when again, rape fantasy exists in other media, and when there are many PTSD sufferers of violence as well (especially in the military, with military shooters). And that the few studies that have been done on triggering seem to find that it's not something that can be readily predicted - and doesn't need to be triggered by obvious cues.

More than anything... it really just seems like we've draw this arbitrary moral line in the ground based on unscrutinized social mores and everyone has just gone with it, because it's too much trouble to fight against. Like the blurring of genitals in porn in japan, or home ownership associations.

I already explained how they are different. One is between consenting adults, the other involves acting on non-consenting targets. I'm pretty sure most people who view rape porn would feel disgusted by watching a recording of actual rape (or at least I hope so). When you watch rape porn you're doing so under the premise they are consenting adults. It's the fantasy they're getting off to, not the act itself which the fantasy is depicting.

And in any case, rape games may continue to exist and I don't really care if they do. A store doesn't have to carry them, however. Furthermore as a customer I can decide to not shop at a store which has decided it wants to carry those products. The rest of your post I'm not going to spend much time answering since most of it is saying things other than what I said. I never implied (or at least meant to imply) that games that let you rape, cause rape. Of course they don't. But they do trivialize it, which after personally knowing several victims of rape I can no longer agree with.

 

[Slayven]

Game makers are free to make the game

DTRPG is free to carry the game

People are free to say they will not do business with DTRPG because the game

 

[Zaptruder]

I already explained how they are different. One is between consenting adults, the other involves acting on non-consenting targets. I'm pretty sure most people who view rape porn would feel disgusted by watching a recording of actual rape (or at least I hope so). When you watch rape porn you're doing so under the premise they are consenting adults. It's the fantasy they're getting off to, not the act itself which the fantasy is depicting.

But the explanation is inadequate. We only care they're consenting adults because otherwise it'd be rape. The fantasy is that there's the thrill of danger, while the reality is that it's safe and not causing harm (because it's between willful participants). If there was no fantasy, there'd be no 'rape' - and the whole thing would just be some sort of BDSM.

When you watch rape porn, you enjoy the emotions surrounding the idea, while also understanding that no real harm has occurred. It's to acted out rape fantasy as porn is to acted out sexual fantasy - one understands that this isn't real - and can partition the fantasy of the scenario from the actual harm of rape.

In the case of rape depiction in non-live media (books, drawn art, games, etc) all of it is entirely fantasy by default. Harm doesn't occur to pixels and line of code.

And in any case, rape games may continue to exist and I don't really care if it does. A store doesn't have to carry them, however. Furthermore as a customer I can decide to not shop at a store which has decided it wants to carry those products. The rest of your post I'm not going to spend much time answering since most of it is saying things other than what I said. I never implied (or at least meant to imply) that games that let you rape, cause rape. Of course they don't. But they do trivialize it, which after personally knowing several victims of rape I can no longer agree with.

This would be a respectable principle if it were more generally consistent. Why do we allow violence to be trivialized? I don't know. We do - and plenty get enjoyment out of that trivialized violence without wishing to inflict harm on others - while similarly, many that don't consume that sought of media can nonetheless inflict great dehumanizing harm on others.

Game makers are free to make the game

DTRPG is free to carry the game

People are free to say they will not do business with DTRPG because the game

This pretty much comes across as - I don't have to explain ourselves. Well you don't really. And yet here's this thread seeking to convince others to boycott the publisher based on this emotional backlash. I suppose it's just a PSA in that sense, like the desire for GMO labelling or some such.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

But the explanation is inadequate. We only care they're consenting adults because otherwise it'd be rape. The fantasy is that there's the thrill of danger, while the reality is that it's safe and not causing harm (because it's between willful participants). If there was no fantasy, there'd be no 'rape' - and the whole thing would just be some sort of BDSM.

When you watch rape porn, you enjoy the emotions surrounding the idea, while also understanding that no real harm has occurred. It's to acted out rape fantasy as porn is to acted out sexual fantasy - one understands that this isn't real - and can partition the fantasy of the scenario from the actual harm of rape.

In the case of rape depiction in non-live media (books, drawn art, games, etc) all of it is entirely fantasy by default. Harm doesn't occur to pixels and line of code.

At this point I'm confident any explanation is 'inadequate' to you. People who fantasize about rape do so when they are under control of the scenario. Rape porn is nothing at all like real rape, and the limits of rape-play in BDSM are set by the submissive as much as, if not more, than the dominant. The actors in both these are in control. There is no actual loss of it. So if you think rape porn can accurately represent actual rape then the only thing inadequate is your understanding of rape. Which is the exactly the reason I do not personally approve of those games. They trivialize something serious that people fail to understand the gravity of.

 

[Slayven]

This pretty much comes across as - I don't have to explain ourselves. Well you don't really. And yet here's this thread seeking to convince others to boycott the publisher based on this emotional backlash. I suppose it's just a PSA in that sense, like the desire for GMO labelling or some such.

Who is trying to convience people to boycott? The OP was just highlighting something that was going on, as all good OPs tend to do, and he closed it with "I am not going to do business with them".

Is just calling attention to something a call to boycott?

 

[onken]

Revolting.

I received the following response from DriveThruRPG in regards to this:

As a matter of interest, how does this affect your position?