E3 2009 Sony Conference Thread

Feb 6, 2007
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dollartaco said:
It will be just as accurate as any other Sony or Nintendo solution, but there will be more lag. Between 250-500ms, I'm guessing. The more gestures and articulations you have it recognize, the slower it will be. It's really quite a nice setup, though. I worked on something about 9 years ago that used a single webcam. With it, we could sense depth, do facial recognition, sex identification, and general mood interpretation. The trick was in the software, not the hardware, and I'm sure that's still true.

I really doubt that it will redefine the way we-as-in-GAF play games.
Heh... I've worked on a multimillion dollar vision systems for Chrylser in the past. It used 12 computers and 9 high resolution cameras to inspect every car rolling down the line for quality control issues. We just barely fit into the bandwidth line using direct hardware and black and white imagery.

Interestingly, they also used infrared cameras due to specular reflection of visual light not reflecting the information we needed.

Anyways... Bottom line this technology is a "lot" more complex to make work for gaming than people know unless you take shortcuts of some kind.
 
Nov 25, 2008
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carvasd said:
This ! Anyone??


Last year Sony posted it in the PS Store a few hours later if I remember correctly... maybe they'll do the same this year
I read somewhere that it was going to be on PSN 2 hours after the conference was over. I checked 10 minutes ago, wasnt up till then at least, but it should be up by tonight I'd think.
 

PistolGrip

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Sep 7, 2006
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UntoldDreams said:
I think the problem with any visual motion sensing system is that the amount of resolution and high speed frame rate required to capture movement at 30-60 FPS human speed is pretty ROUGH on any computer.

Every image frame has to be digitized and processed with pattern recognition and detect "arms & legs" moving from the previous frames. All this in 1/30 or 1/60, 1/120 of a second.
(Street fighter inputs need to be polled way higher than framerate)

For typical USB this bandwidth will be a problem unless you reduce the resolution to something sub-megapixel.

High resolution megapixel cameras produce megabyte photos each time. This is exactly the bandwidth problem being tackled if you actually want "high resolution movement" detection.

Sony's Eyetoy games predominantly uses what is known as IMAGE TEMPLATE MATCHING where they produce a simple 2D grid of normalized black and white pixels and simply check "which pixels switched form ON to OFF" for movement.

It will be interesting to see what Microsoft intends to pull off. Frankly, if they can make it work with the 360 at high speed, high accuracy, low bandwidth they will have solved the problem which exists for all image processing systems on the planet.

I am skeptical for the NATAL technology for reasons beyond LOVE or HATE for any big BILLION dollar company nor any blind fanboy emotions people have.

Technologically... I think MS promised a VERY large check and I think they will end up much more EYETOYISH than you might think after the conference.
you capture my sentiment exactly... though I think it helps that MS is pushing it so hard... just this fact will make gaming much more interactive in the future. Motion controls need the support from all manufactures if it is to revolutionize gaming and make it better.
 
Feb 6, 2007
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Gary Whitta said:
That must be why nobody was impressed.

Oh, wait...
It will be impressive if they can deliver on it (by hook or by crook doesn't matter).

Sony had the opportunity to do similar stuff with Eyetoy for years but they never capitalized on it and even the PS Eye as we speak. So here's Microsoft's chance to swoop in.

You'll get your chance to serve crow or recant one year later.
 

Kintaro

Worships the porcelain goddess
Jun 10, 2004
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Gary Whitta said:
If you don't already get a sense of that from the Milo demo then nothing I can say is going to convince you.
I would have been much more into the Milo demo if Peter M. weren't behind it. Too much bullshit from that man over the years for me to take him seriously anymore, no matter how ambitious or smart he is (and he is).

However, the most important question for Natal is simply "why and how?" For a FPS, why would I want to stand up a mimic being a soldier for hours while I play when I could do the same on a controller that has worked very well to the tune of kabillions sold? How would it work? Would I have to stand there, pretending to hold a fun all game long while pretending to move forward to move the game forward? So on, so forth.

If developers can't even get a grasp on the Wii Remote and their motion controls, why should I have faith in any developer to truly grasp something like Natal any time soon? Same question to Sony.
 
Mar 26, 2006
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Gary Whitta said:
I suspect the technology in Natal goes a little bit beyond what's in the PS Eye but that's not the point. For me the point is the ambition level. The blue-sky thinking demonstrated by Milo alone goes way beyond anything Sony ever dreamed of implementing for their cameras. As an owner of both the Eye Toy and the PS Eye I've had as much fun popping balloons and posing for funny photos as anyone, but Natal shows how much farther you can go with the technology if you really broaden your imaginative horizons.
I'm assuming this is a joke quote taken from the PS3 unvieling and changed. Similar to the square enix quote?
 
Nov 25, 2008
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UntoldDreams said:
It will be impressive if they can deliver on it (by hook or by crook doesn't matter).

Sony had the opportunity to do similar stuff with Eyetoy for years but they never capitalized on it and even the PS Eye as we speak. So here's Microsoft's chance to swoop in.

You'll get your chance to serve crow or recant one year later.
EVERY website which has had hands on time has said that it is great pie-in-the-sky kinda project, but doesnt work that well in reality. I would think you'd be severely limited in your conversation choices and stuff you can do.

I am much more excited about the OTHER uses of Project Natal... the 'vision trailer' they showed, with the quiz show and the soccer game, could be fucking incredible. I would totally love a game where I can play soccer like that... I dont see how it would be done, but I am sure they will come up with something. Also, it looked very intuitive while they were showing how to navigate menus etc.

Project Milo according to me is an ongoing project which will take at least 2-3 years to be in any form to be released. OTOH, they might be able to release Project Natal with menu navigation, breakout style games, activities etc.
 

joshcryer

it's ok, you're all right now
Oct 5, 2006
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Kibbles said:
What the hell is the point of the waggle controller? The PS3 already has a motion controller.
Depth perception, they're using that big glowing thing to get an idea how far away you are, it's a different solution to the same problem. It could possibly be done by putting a big fat glowing thing on the end of a controller but that would be probably uncomfortable to utilize.
 
May 10, 2007
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CcrooK said:
Negatory. I just found it odd you knew some things, but asking for others. :lol Carry on.
Yeah, just got off work. It's hard to care though if there's no price drop or PS3 slim, since I don't own the hardware and won't get one until the second revision/it gets cheaper.
 
Feb 6, 2007
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Okay so we are no longer shocked by the funky shaped motion control twin sticks.

The question on my mind is what is Sony going to do with them? They've eaten the crow of "we have to copy Nintendo" which I am sure was a bitter pill to swallow and that's now over and done...

** The question now is what software do they plan to create?

The SIXAXIS alone without the PSEye calibrating point in space was unable to do light gun games. I suppose that's the first thing.

Without bundling this thing its going to suffer red-headed stepchild syndrome. I suppose the easy stuff to knock off will be Light Gun Games, Sports Games, Boom Blox stuff...

I suppose immediately EA will be able to start sharing motion design concepts between PS3 and Wii. It might even help them create more multiplatform games for the Wii now?

Sega now has 2 platforms to make light gun pointy stick games for.
 

Totobeni

An blind dancing ho
Nov 3, 2007
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after reading many pages of this thread ..I guess poor mod nation Racer is the victim of Trico , Uncharted 2 , GOW3 and GT5 no one even care about it , it was one of best things of Sony Conference :(
 
Jun 7, 2004
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Gary Whitta said:
If you don't already get a sense of that from the Milo demo then nothing I can say is going to convince you.
Disappointing response. :( I had hoped you had legitamate reasons for being excited and would share them. I need more than a tech demo to believe in this product.

I'm thinking in terms of real world game applications. How does this device would make Madden better? Or NBA2k9? Or MLB The show (hypothetically)? How about a first person shooter? Do I need to buy a bunch of gimmick add on controllers with this camera to make it work?

I'll say it again, your body is your controller is the biggest uncanny valley we have seen in gaming. If I'm playing a baseball game, am I supposed to pretend to swing without holding a tangible item?

The Wii is a big hit because not only are you doing the motions, but you are holding an object while doing them. You take this device away, and you break some of the fantasy of immersion from the product. Controllers are buttons still have their place. MS just went way too extreme to one end on this one.

Besides, devs can't figure out the Wii. How are they going to figure this out?

Natal = biggest blue balls of e3
 
Feb 23, 2008
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UntoldDreams said:
Okay so we are no longer shocked by the funky shaped motion control twin sticks.

The question on my mind is what is Sony going to do with them? They've eaten the crow of "we have to copy Nintendo" which I am sure was a bitter pill to swallow and that's now over and done...

** The question now is what software do they plan to create?

The SIXAXIS alone without the PSEye calibrating point in space was unable to do light gun games. I suppose that's the first thing.

Without bundling this thing its going to suffer red-headed stepchild syndrome. I suppose the easy stuff to knock off will be Light Gun Games, Sports Games, Boom Blox stuff...

I suppose immediately EA will be able to start sharing motion design concepts between PS3 and Wii. It might even help them create more multiplatform games for the Wii now?

Sega now has 2 platforms to make light gun pointy stick games for.
worst case is an "eye of judgment" type reception where no one really cares about the game or the peripheral.

best case is a "Wii Fit" success. where a peripheral selling for 100 bucks sells like mad and becomes a cultural phenomenon.

realistically, I'm not expecting wii fit levels of success. But if Sony is smart they will put together a game or package of games that work much like wii sports resort and have a family friendly style and a classic hook. I am hoping that Sony can reverse their track record of under-utilizing the potential of their recent accessories and motion tech.

it would be an obvious mistake to launch this with some crazy hardcore game like, gee, I don't know, Eye of Judgment.
 
Feb 6, 2007
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LCfiner said:
worst case is an "eye of judgment" type reception where no one really cares about the game or the peripheral.

best case is a "Wii Fit" success. where a peripheral selling for 100 bucks sells like mad and becomes a cultural phenomenon.

realistically, I'm not expecting wii fit levels of success. But if Sony is smart they will put together a game or package of games that work much like wii sports resort and have a family friendly style and a classic hook. I am hoping that Sony can reverse their track record of under-utilizing the potential of their recent accessories and motion tech.

it would be an obvious mistake to launch this with some crazy hardcore game like, gee, I don't know, Eye of Judgment.
Hahaha... I actually like Eye of Judgment but I am not blind to the fact that it was a TERRIBLE choice to promote the Camera to the masses.

Sony is such an odd company. Sometimes their tech is undeniably great with huge potential... Then they throw it in the closet and walk away or do something completely backwards.

Honestly, I am not expecting Sony to do the right thing with motion. I expect 3rd parties who are trying to figure out a "Wii" strategy will grab on to the fact they are now Multiplatform motion game developers.

These same 3rd parties who "fear Nintendo-mination" now have an opportunity to make multiplatform games on both platforms. No excuses for them not to.
 
May 10, 2007
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Uncharted 2 Demo footage is pretty, but doesn't look to be doing a whole lot knew.

The part where the building falls down though.. shit! Still kinda looks like a re-skinned Tomb Raider/Gears of War, gameplay wise.

Great writing, great setting, great visuals, and great characters though.
 

PistolGrip

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Sep 7, 2006
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SonOfABeep said:
Uncharted 2 Demo footage is pretty, but doesn't look to be doing a whole lot knew.

The part where the building falls down though.. shit! Still kinda looks like a re-skinned Tomb Raider/Gears of War, gameplay wise.

Great writing, great setting, great visuals, and great characters though.
Its that cool blockbuster movie feel that really draws me in... it feels like an animated film more than a game. Not to mention the lip syncing, the animation and the details take it to new levels...
 
Jun 11, 2004
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Did that BBC reporter confirm if the game he saw behind closed doors last year was there? He seemed to think before the conference they were going to show it, but none of the new titles seems to fit the description.
 

PistolGrip

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Sep 7, 2006
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I was just thinking how you can use one stick to move and the other to shoot in an FPS... press a button and you turn your motion stick into part of your weapon like a bow an arrow... though you can only move short distances requiring you go back to the other mode for moving father.
 
Jun 2, 2007
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For everyone who pissed their pants when FFXIV was announced then shrugged it off when it was revealed as an online game (because they lost interest, and not because their fanboy egos were relieved):

Everyone looking over this game makes me feel like I've gone back in time to 2002 and Bungie just announced a game called "Halo" that's an online only FPS. "lol, online wtf is this?" This is an extremely legitimate genre that is only going to grow.

If you've never considered playing an MMO, I highly recommend that you give this game a shot and don't just pretend like it doesn't exist. It really is a unique experience and once you get into it, it's very hard to look back. There's a reason why, for 5 years, I haven't been able to completely quit FFXI. There's a level of accomplishment, immersion, interactivity, and cooperation in MMO's that you just can not find in other games. Since playing an MMO, every other genre has a sort of emptiness for me. Like they all matter less. The way everyone reacted to this was like it was a cell phone game or something, and I just don't understand that. For a core gamer, an MMO of this caliber should be a bigger reveal than a SP Final Fantasy.

Also, I sincerely hope that this will get an eventual 360 release. The more the merrier, in this case.
 

PistolGrip

sex vacation in Guam
Sep 7, 2006
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One thing no one is talking about is the 80% dev license drop for making PSP games... Thats a game changer as far as I am concern... hopefully we will see a big boost in games due to this..
 
Oct 8, 2006
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UntoldDreams said:
I think the problem with any visual motion sensing system is that the amount of resolution and high speed frame rate required to capture movement at 30-60 FPS human speed is pretty ROUGH on any computer.

Every image frame has to be digitized and processed with pattern recognition and detect "arms & legs" moving from the previous frames. All this in 1/30 or 1/60, 1/120 of a second.
(Street fighter inputs need to be polled way higher than framerate)

For typical USB this bandwidth will be a problem unless you reduce the resolution to something sub-megapixel.

High resolution megapixel cameras produce megabyte photos each time. This is exactly the bandwidth problem being tackled if you actually want "high resolution movement" detection.

Sony's Eyetoy games predominantly uses what is known as IMAGE TEMPLATE MATCHING where they produce a simple 2D grid of normalized black and white pixels and simply check "which pixels switched form ON to OFF" for movement.

It will be interesting to see what Microsoft intends to pull off. Frankly, if they can make it work with the 360 at high speed, high accuracy, low bandwidth they will have solved the problem which exists for all image processing systems on the planet.

I am skeptical for the NATAL technology for reasons beyond LOVE or HATE for any big BILLION dollar company nor any blind fanboy emotions people have.

Technologically... I think MS promised a VERY large check and I think they will end up much more EYETOYISH than you might think after the conference.
I thought the rumor going around was that the Natal peripheral contained some sort of image processing chips that offload some of the analysis work from the 360's Xenon CPU?

The fact that the Natal peripheral combines different kinds of sensors (including one for 3D ranging across the view frustrum) would seem to lower the processing requirements that would be needed if they were doing it all with a 2d video camera, as well.
 
May 26, 2007
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jonabbey said:
I thought the rumor going around was that the Natal peripheral contained some sort of image processing chips that offload some of the analysis work from the 360's Xenon CPU?

The fact that the Natal peripheral combines different kinds of sensors (including one for 3D ranging across the view frustrum) would seem to lower the processing requirements that would be needed if they were doing it all with a 2d video camera, as well.
All that processing power/sensors would make the Natal peripheral prohibitively expensive. Biggest question now is how much these addons are going to cost...if they end up being 100-200 its going to be dead in the water.
 
Nov 21, 2005
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Mrbob said:
I'm thinking in terms of real world game applications. How does this device would make Madden better? Or NBA2k9? Or MLB The show (hypothetically)? How about a first person shooter? Do I need to buy a bunch of gimmick add on controllers with this camera to make it work?
I don't know; maybe it won't be best applied to those kind of games. Maybe some games will always be best played with a more traditional controller. But I think it's interesting that your immediate thought is to simply try to apply this approach to existing genres rather than imagining the kind of new experiences and genres that the controller might make possible. If that's the limit of your thinking then it doesn't surprise me that you're not impressed.

I don't know what the answers are yet, it's way too early to know. But I like the idea that smarter people than me are working on it.
 
Jun 12, 2007
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Gary Whitta said:
they follow rather than innovate (unlike Natal, the wand seems like an attempt to match the Wiimote rather than surpass it).

You realize that Sony has been spending R&D money/time pushing research on vision technology since the PS2 era right?

MS only just jumped into this last year by purchasing the company that created what is now known as Natal.

I think your perspective needs some calibration
 
Feb 6, 2007
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jonabbey said:
I thought the rumor going around was that the Natal peripheral contained some sort of image processing chips that offload some of the analysis work from the 360's Xenon CPU?

The fact that the Natal peripheral combines different kinds of sensors (including one for 3D ranging across the view frustrum) would seem to lower the processing requirements that would be needed if they were doing it all with a 2d video camera, as well.
The question then is simply price because that is basically an embedded computer with ASIC chips like a GPU card. (Or a Cell processor...)
 
Jul 10, 2007
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PuppetMaster said:
You realize that Sony has been spending R&D money/time pushing research on vision technology since the PS2 era right?

MS only just jumped into this last year by purchasing the company that created what is now known as Natal.

I think your perspective needs some calibration
So MS made the smarter choice?