[E3] The rise of female characters - how organic does it feel

Ive seen the "its not realistic for her to take down guys twice her size" several times and each time its come off as ridiculous and more like complaining for the sake of complaining.

If you had actually watched the trailer you would see that she isnt taking on a handful of big dudes by beating them with her bare fists. She's taking them one on one with weapons. It doesnt matter if its from a little girl or a big burly man if take a machete to the neck you go down. Its just that simple.

Also, I dont get why people are focusing this criticism at mostly Last of Us 2(I think we all know why) and a bit of Assassins Creed Odyssey. Why is Gears of War 5 free from criticism?
Becuase she is wearing a power suit and is blasting people with a gun. Not using a bow and arrow.
 
So a 19yo Ellie can't kill grown men with a bow, hammer or machete?
She can do anything. Its a videogame. It's just not realistic.

And considering that both Uncharted and TLOU were criticized for being unrealistic by many people, and the whole dissonance argument started around this studio, it a tad bit hypocritical to excuse that now
 
Placing a female character in the British army on the frontlines in a WW2 game is utter stupidity. There are a thousand different tales they could have told about brave women in that war but not the farcical route they chose which disrespects history & the real men who fought in that terrible conflict.
I'm going to regret wading in on this I know it :LOL: but you're playing a video game based on a real war, making a "death match" out of real lives and real deaths, history has already been disrespected


fwiw, so long as there's narrative-logical consistency, so you can justify it in your gameworld, I'm fine with taking some liberties.

As for diversity, I want to play different stories and different characters. A few people have said that we're still playing a small pool of stories and characters, it's just now you include a couple of female archetypes in there too, I'd agree with that. I want to see more diversity and not just have the same beats repeated, in games and films. Not so much for the diversity in and of itself, although it's cool more people get included, more that I've played and watched a lot of things, I'm tired of the same old tropes
 
Well it did feel forced to me in lots of places, doing it just to do it but I haven't played the game so I really couldn't say.

I don't usually like to play as a female either, just not something I want to do in most cases.
 
I think it seems the majority are positive about female characters so we can play devil's advocate a bit.

The gender of an action hero does change the tone of a game or movie. Instead of female, think about a 14 year old boy as your action hero. Pro women's athletes regularly play with and lose to mid-teenage male teams in different sports (https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/a-dallas-fc-under-15-boys-squad-beat-the-u-s-womens-national-team-in-a-scrimmage).

Imagine John Wick but swap the character with the karate kid. Different tone, different feel. One story is about an overpowered badass getting shit done, the other is about defying the odds. It's great to be open minded, but we can't deny that the gender or age of the character doesn't change the feel of the game.
What is really eye opening , is that these pro female athletes just got beaten but they are not bitter. They are full of smiles and seem like wonderful people who understand sportsmanship and a challenge.
Then you have the sjw, feminist and pc crowd who are the antithesis of this, vile, bitter husks of people who hope to make everyone misserable and cause irreparable damage and division in society.
 
Female leading protagonists is good for the industry but in some games (Bayonetta) they over-seaxualize woman (eye candy) which is not a good thing because this leads to some discrimination, perversion and other issues that have a negative impact outside the videogame market.

Think about how many woman struggle daily to look attractive because of those standards :(
Bayonetta's "over-sexualization" is in an ironic way, if you fail to see that,there is not much to be done to help you :(

It worked, many guys were afraid of playing the game (the first one back in 2009) because it was too much, funny how it was never too much with other characters before but now she deliberately poses in a sexy way and bros can't take it.
 
Barely even notice. Most games are still male led. There are just a few heavy hitters giving a female perspective. No problems with that and I like the variety of it all. 20 assassins creeds so yeah, why not have a few that feature women if not more

For things like battlefield I don’t understand it at all. Who cares in multiplayer if someone chooses a female. You don’t gotta do it this shit doesn’t even affect you. Unless your ears are gonna bleed every time you hear a female voice from a female teammate why would anyone give a fuck about this. You can choose white dudes all day and maintain whatever fantasy you want for your own player

Just seems like a weird hill to die on to think twice about this crap. Resident Evil 3 starred Jill Valentineand RE2 had Claire Redfield with equal weight to Leon, not to mention it’s clones like parasite eve, silent hill 3 and others. Sequels often do this shit to give the storytelling a different perspective and to feel fresh and it’s great

The only difference now is you are getting some blockbuster AAA devs doing it with the sequels of newer franchises. And getting wider customization options for shooters. Nothing happening here is in need any of discussion IMO
 
BF V having a female soldier didn't bother me, but showing her fight in the front lines with a prosthetic arm is just way too over the top. That felt too forced.

I'm all for more diversity in games but you gotta do it for the right reasons and not do it because you want to cater to the SJWs or feminists.
 
Doesn't matter to me, if the games decent, male or female

Not sure why people have an issue to start with

Infact in bf5 I'll probably use w female character, smaller hitbox ;)
 
Haha, I don't care about BF5, but this arrogant statement makes me hope gamers make him eat his words :D

Bottom line is EA has been shit on to hell and back for "loot boxes" to the point they're going the Fortnite route Hocking cosmetic shit for cash. But instead of being honest about it they're acting like they're taking a moral stand with their bullshit. And dismissing valid criticism of their game with "sexism" issues. It's lazy and dishonest. It's all about money and MT's and them trying to shift the discussion away from that is shady as fuck.
 
How in the bloody hell is killing a guy by shooting him in the face with a gun NOT realistic?

Dear God, there's not enough facepalms in the world for this pathetic excuse of thread.
Since when is that all she does in the game?
If the thread bothers you so much, don't post in it.
 
I love female characters. Especially well thought out and detailed ones.

I guess this comes from the curiosity to see the world through their eyes. Like when I play a male character most of the choices and or dialog that is scripted most definitely feels within the realm of something I would say or another man I know would say. Female dialog and actions causes me surprises at times I guess which to me is like an added bonus to my gaming experience.

I think everyone can agree that, Hey there are times when I want to play Beef Cake bad ass and fucking destroy my enemies in masculine glory, and there are times where I am looking for something a little different and unique and to me that is female characters.

I don't view them as competitive but more as complimentary. It's like when I was young getting ice cream I always opted for the swirl because to me a equal sharing of both is ideal. That goes for everything in life, from gender, race, politics, you name it.
 
[QUOTE
How in the bloody hell is killing a guy by shooting him in the face with a gun NOT realistic?

Dear God, there's not enough facepalms in the world for this pathetic excuse of thread.
Reviewing this thread in context with others and coupling similar responses, it’s clear this has nothing to do with women in games at all.

We’re not talking about Gears of War or Tomb Raider, and frankly an adult Ellie killing people should be no surprise to anyone who played the first.

In the vein that God of War was a “walking simulator”, TLOU is especially getting singled out for its female characters because apparently Ellie’s dance partner is “ugly”.
 
It's tough to tell really, we could also be paying more attention due to the politicization of female leads.

I don't think many of us were paying attention to the potential political messaging of Samus, Bayonetta or Ulala because they just were female characters, not by demand or decree from a political mob but because their developers wanted them to be. It could very well be the same case here, the developers genuinely wanted to make these games with these characters and that's how these characters came to be -- or, and less desirably, they are caving to an ideological project.

It's important to analyze on a case-by-case basis and determine from there whether it's something you're still interested in. I'm not interested in heavy-handed political messages in most of my games or even media generically, especially of that type. I will definitely grab Metroid Prime 4 and Bayonetta when I have a Switch however.
 
Something bothered about me about original TLoU is there were no of female enemies, and I don't mean the infected ones.

I wonder because TLoU 2 had Ellie in the role they made it okay to add female enemies.
 
For me it boils down to poor writing. I think that because games are incredibly realistic today, the tech is great, but as games look more and more realistic the writing is lagging behind. The writing hasn't improved at the same rate that everything else has and now we have this disconnect between what we see on our screens and the way the characters and worlds on them play out.

In short, because the characters look so lifelike today it's much easier for us to perceive unrealistic behaviors in said characters.

Female leads when done well are just as fantastic as male leads done well. Last gen we were all tired of seeing the same generic "buffed space marine who never loses" lead in our games and this gen we're getting tired of seeing the same strong independent woman in our games.
 
It's annoying having to constantly fight against a straw man argument. It's like they invent a controversy and then get upset when they're called out on it. The vast majority of gamers are fine with female characters if it fits thematically with the story and it doesn't feel like they're being clubbed over the head with an agenda. CDPR was maligned by the usual identity politics crew because they developed their game with a specific vision rather than an ideology. Now that they're making Cyberpunk 2077 it makes a lot more sense to show that world in a different light than what they did previously in The Witcher. It's the way it should be, make your damn game and not let politics bleed into everything you do.
 
Definitely not organic. Organic means that it's incidental. Here is a game, there is a woman on an adventure, nothing stands out other than that. Beyond Good and Evil is organic. What they do, especially in terms of writing, stands out to say the least. As for the feats of Ellie in TLOU2, I don't think they wrote the fight that bad, it was mostly about timing and luck. It will never beat what we saw with Nadine; now that was the zenith. It's forced the way they wrote it in AC, it's forced in Battlefield too. Cherrypicking small samples from history to blow them out of proportion to make a subject the centerpiece of an event cannot be described as organic.
 
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I am fine with female protagonists. I am fine with gay protagonists. That is not the issue. I am also not threatened by their existence. My masculinity is just fine.

- IMO the E3 trailer for The Last of Us 2 was a little heavy handed with the lesbian angle. That is very uncommon for a trailer. I can't remember the last trailer / demo at an E3 that had a straight couple kiss in a similar manner. I am not threatened by it in the slightest. It just made me feel like they (Naughty Dog) were doing a bit of pandering. So, in response to the OT, it DID NOT feel organic.

- Regarding "realism" in video games, I also felt the trailer was a little jarring. I did not feel that way about Tomb Raider reboot. I do agree with the poster who mentioned Chloe and Nate, that felt like some stupid cartoon in the middle of the game. If something is set up properly, then all is well. Black Widow-super hero: good, Katniss Everdeen-using her strengths: good, Atomic Blonde-no explanation/justification: bad).

Most of TLoU2 looked solid, there were just a few things that were cringe-worthy. They are trying to tell a pseudo-realistic story, that is why Ellie is not straight up walking through bullets, but I personally am not sold on what they are presenting. It is causing me to shake my head instead of to get into the game (kind of like some of the stupid injure Lara sequences from Tomb Raider). They can be in there, but I can find them annoying.
 
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all I could think during tlou segment was ellie could do better, her gf was ugly
also about how she took a hammer to the chest and shrugged it off. i could buy an arrow to the shoulder but that hammer would have knocked her ass down
its videogames so whatever, game looked fun
 
I love female characters. Especially well thought out and detailed ones.

I guess this comes from the curiosity to see the world through their eyes. Like when I play a male character most of the choices and or dialog that is scripted most definitely feels within the realm of something I would say or another man I know would say. Female dialog and actions causes me surprises at times I guess which to me is like an added bonus to my gaming experience.

I think everyone can agree that, Hey there are times when I want to play Beef Cake bad ass and fucking destroy my enemies in masculine glory, and there are times where I am looking for something a little different and unique and to me that is female characters.
Yeah, I like both. As a dude I can identify with approaching things like I would as a dude, or with certain characters engage with a concept of something I only aspire to right now (like AC Origins Bayek and TEW Sebastian being dads), but it's also cool seeing things from female perspective.

Life is Strange was a very unique thing and playing as a female protagonist in Dragon Age Inquisition was neat. Even playing as Lara striving to save/protect Jonah was cool. Detroit: Become Human was very neat with all the characters, and actually a lot of adventure games have great representation of a wide array of character types. Games like Resident Evil with several male and female leads are awesome. Sometimes I'll play as a woman specifically because it is more fanciful for the given context, like in Ghost Recon Wildlands. In fighting games I prefer a swift+mixup style and that's almost always a female character.

It's really weird to me to even consider female protagonists as even being "a thing" like it's an uncommon occurrence or some sort of issue to address or some kind of agenda being pushed. It's really not. Women are just part of the world and so naturally they'll be in games, like every other media. How is this an issue? I really don't get it.

If something is set up properly, then all is well. Black Widow-super hero: good, Katniss Everdeen-using her strengths: good, Atomic Blonde-no explanation/justification: bad).
This is exactly it for movies. I feel this way about male characters, too. Although as I expressed in my first reply, videogames play by different, far less realistic rules, even in realistically-styled games. It's actually a difficulty for horror/survival games because some things will insta-kill you and other things that would definitely kill a normal human being are like nothing, so it can be a bit frustrating for someone unfamiliar with the genre to discern what they are supposed to fight and what they are supposed to run away from.
 
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Meh, I hated Black Widow in Infinty War. She had no business fighting Thanos' underlings :/

Neither has Jeremy Renner (whas his movie-name again, 'Arrow'?).

Good example of why the realism-argument isn't misogynistic. The wish for realism exists for all kinds of characters and is different for all consumers.
 
Placing a female character in the British army on the frontlines in a WW2 game is utter stupidity. There are a thousand different tales they could have told about brave women in that war but not the farcical route they chose which disrespects history & the real men who fought in that terrible conflict.
You have found your safe space.

Tells us how you really feel...
 
I know about accuracy but lets talk about honor. Women, yes WOMEN kept this country going and soldiers spirits up during WW2. So even though most didn't directly fight to put them in a game as fighters honors them. Perhaps that is more important.
 
I'd add another but here, mostly concerning a certain obvious problem I haven't seen mentioned yet: when many people (including developers) suggest games need more female protagonists in order for women to feel comfortable & enjoy playing those games, a natural conclusion based upon the same premise ("people buy a product based upon their own gender representation within the story") would entail men might themselves in turn "not enjoy" playing as a women, i.e. the side pushing for more female protagonists in the name of bringing women into the fold (because they don't enjoy male action leads) might need to realize a certain double-standard exists within that assertion, i.e. especially when men are accused of being sexist pigs for not wanting to play as a woman... whilst women in the same shoes vis-à-vis not wanting to play as men are considered totally normal.

It's easy to understand why many men get royally p*ssed off when they're told to embrace playing as a female whilst women are encouraged to go "beurk, I won't don't want to play as an effing white male!". That's why I support the decision they made in Assassin's Creed Odyssey, i.e. for better or for worse, at least give us the choice & there will be no more gender infighting.
Thing is, this is theoretically unrelated to the work itself. While what you said isn't unreasonable, what people say outside of the work shouldn't be taken into account when judging it. If the game is good, it's good. The problem is when these political messages of resistance cross over to the work itself in its detriment because of a lack of focus on the overall quality outside of being super socially engaged. I liked New Colossus, I thought the shooting was great and BJ was still a very good character. However it's obvious that there are many writing issues that do their best to fuck up the experience. But the problem is not pandering to a certain target audience, it's how they did. It's bad because it's shit, not because of pandering. It's a thin line because usually when you're trying your best to convey a message it leads to disastrous results, like that scene in Shape of Water where the Cabin in the Woods dude tries to hit on the bartender he fancies and the young one calls him a fairy or shit and then immediately proceed to be racist with a black couple that walked in. I mean that's ridiculous and it fucks up any suspension of disbelief, it's a terrible scene. But it's not bad because of any political content that the creators badly wanted to put there (people are evil, alt-right is winning hurr durr), it's bad because it's idiotic and very poorly done.

I strongly disagree with the notion that art should necessarily have anything to do with real life issues. More than anything, art is about wonder. If the creator is able to generate amazement through a politically charged allegory or something then that's great. Anything that works should be commended. However, I think that any work of art should be analyzed by its own merits. I know it's simplistic and I sound like a broken record, but if it's good, then it's good and nothing else matters. We should respect the work and judge it by itself.
 
Yeah that was quite the bullshit. She may be military trained but even that have she still have limits especially when she's up against Nathan and Sam, where both had been in prison fights with very tough inmates. I guess Naughty Dog don't like the idea of men actually beating women.
To be fair, this issue is everywhere in media, not just games. In TV and movies you see super badass 5'7" 115lb chicks beating the living shit out of 6'1" 220lb men with ease in hand to hand combat, and I don't mean dad bod bums; often muscle bound studs.

I can usually suspend my disbelief enough for this to be 'okay'. But Nadine was definitely pushing it.
 
My favorite video game character of all time is a tie between Arthas Menethil and Terra Branford.

I played Final Fantasy VI when I was thirteen years of age and I fell in love with her. Terra was unassuming, wary of others, quiet and thoughtful and best of all perceptive. Aside from being beautiful she had all the attributes I found to be irresistible. Her strength was undeniable but it wasn't flaunted or hamfisted into every possible fucking scene.

I think in the late 80's and 90's, female characters could be good or bad, strong or weak, beautiful or ugly, but they were almost invariably interesting. To me that is what's important.

Which brings me to modern times.
Whether it feels organic or not, I feel it's hit or miss really. I think sometimes it's very suitable to have the badass, crazy strong and confident woman protagonist that just wipes the walls with everyone.

What I don't like is that when someone opts for someone more nuanced, more defined and complicated like Terra, people lose their shit and lament that she's not crushing men's balls with five inch heels.

You don't always have to have the outlandish, omnipotent, consistently smirking woman in order to have a good or even powerful female character. Terra was not always confident, empowered or even strong. There were times when she displayed vulnerabilities and I really think that a lot of people would take issue with that today. But the fact that she came from humble beginnings, and even then much later had her own crisis in which she was laden with fear and self-doubt, and then came out of it makes her stronger and better in my opinion than any other female character in video games.

It also makes her precious and somehow even more beautiful.


To put it as succinctly as I can, female characters in video games today, while usually presented as strong and independent, are more often than not thin as paper, poorly written and worst of all predictable, usually because creators all have a very singular, two dimensional idea of what constitutes strong and especially what constitutes good.
 
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Personally about five years (more or less) ago I wanted to see more Female protagonists, But that won't excuse poor writing I seen in games or movies as of late. my desire for great stories has only been only strengthened by the declining amount of great single player games.

Give us great characters male or female, thx.
 
all I could think during tlou segment was ellie could do better, her gf was ugly
also about how she took a hammer to the chest and shrugged it off. i could buy an arrow to the shoulder but that hammer would have knocked her ass down
its videogames so whatever, game looked fun
Every hit in the Last of Us is a Glancing Blow or Flesh Wound till the final hit. That's how it's a set up. It's like how the bad guys get Stormtrooper aim when your running away but will drop you in a heart beat if you run towards them. Keeps the tension high.
 
I don’t think think there’s been anything forced on a macro level. I think female characters have always been there and became more popular (if they actually have) because that’s what consumers wanted. I say “if they actually have” because I don’t think we should assume they were less popular before. I honestly doubt that many people would have refused good games due to the gender of the character in prior years by and large. Metroid was pretty popular and didn’t everyone know it was a woman? If anything I think people just weren’t given the option as much, and didn’t really have a way to express they enjoyed having options that much pre social media.

I do agree there are specific instances that may seem forced and unwarranted and annoying preachy. That’s only when it seems a change is being made for the sake of change to me though. That does annoy me because it feels like it’s messing with something that works not because it makes it better, but because it will be different. If I wanted different I’d play or watch something else than what I’m already expecting.
 
How in the bloody hell is killing a guy by shooting him in the face with a gun NOT realistic?

Dear God, there's not enough facepalms in the world for this pathetic excuse of thread.
Because one soldier (male or female) taking down entire armies is realistic. :rolleyes:
 
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Because one soldier (male or female) taking down entire armies is realistic. :rolleyes:
You call a scattered, disjointed band of a dozen wackjobs in a dystopian society an army?

Did you stretch before that enormous reach?

Its like people are searching for reasons to hate this and when they cant find one they invent new ones.
 
Female leading protagonists is good for the industry but in some games (Bayonetta) they over-seaxualize woman (eye candy) which is not a good thing because this leads to some discrimination, perversion and other issues that have a negative impact outside the videogame market.

Think about how many woman struggle daily to look attractive because of those standards :(
That's a bad example since in Bayonetta, women are strong, independent, comfortable with their sexuality and toy with men.

As for the presence of women in recent games, it didn't feel forced to me. And it's not less believable to play a "tiny" woman fighting a giant than a "tiny" man.
Highlighting the fact that a woman is playable does feel forced though. It shouldn't be such a big deal (but then that's marketing, trying to surf the wave...)
 
What question the realness of a petite woman fighting big men in video games but not also questioned the big men they make 40 foot Leafs and do rolls from 70 ft in the air without spraining an ankle or breaking a leg?

My dude why push back against female lead characters in games? The only reason why you believe it is not organic is because you believe male lead characters should be the default. Let's just be honest here. It's totally fine that these women are lead characters in video games. They are just games. We are all having fun. It's all Make-Believe.
this is not true. The problem is when all of these characters feel like the same strong independent women trope. Right now you can literally have a checkbox to personalize the characters. Again with Ellie it is different. In the beginning she is different. She is quit humble and shy. She feels like a real person. Lara for example does not. It is all about the writing but I think right now developer are scared to do this because the moment they do not fit in these boxes and they make one error the media will dogpile on them.
I am fine with female protagonists. I am fine with gay protagonists. That is not the issue. I am also not threatened by their existence. My masculinity is just fine.

- IMO the E3 trailer for The Last of Us 2 was a little heavy handed with the lesbian angle. That is very uncommon for a trailer. I can't remember the last trailer / demo at an E3 that had a straight couple kiss in a similar manner. I am not threatened by it in the slightest. It just made me feel like they (Naughty Dog) were doing a bit of pandering. So, in response to the OT, it DID NOT feel organic.

- Regarding "realism" in video games, I also felt the trailer was a little jarring. I did not feel that way about Tomb Raider reboot. I do agree with the poster who mentioned Chloe and Nate, that felt like some stupid cartoon in the middle of the game. If something is set up properly, then all is well. Black Widow-super hero: good, Katniss Everdeen-using her strengths: good, Atomic Blonde-no explanation/justification: bad).

Most of TLoU2 looked solid, there were just a few things that were cringe-worthy. They are trying to tell a pseudo-realistic story, that is why Ellie is not straight up walking through bullets, but I personally am not sold on what they are presenting. It is causing me to shake my head instead of to get into the game (kind of like some of the stupid injure Lara sequences from Tomb Raider). They can be in there, but I can find them annoying.
the scene does not feel forced because they try to show how Ellie has changed drastically because something has happened it fits perfectly
 
I'm digging the trend to be honest.

We've had 20 odd years of testosterone-heavy lead characters, they can take the story in some different directions with a female lead. Over time we can hopefully settle at a fair balance between the two, but no issues at all if women get to take the driver's seat for a bit.
I get that testosterone heavy male leads are a tired trope, but instead of giving us something truly new with female leads and explore women strengths, we often see the entertainment industry just replacing testosterone heavy men with testosterone heavy women.

Women are different from men and better than men in many things, but we don't really get to truly see those.

There are notable exceptions, but that is a ludicrous trend.
 
The bolded is true, but the default in society still is and has always been straight, white and male. So I think it's necessary to "flip the switch" and have games with only female leads, who're not straight and not exclusively white. Why? Because these people do exist and play these games.
I've lost your chain of thought.
Straight and male is who majority of non-mobile gamers are, what majority of americans/europeans (non-mobile gamers) are, what majority of Chinese are, what majority of Africans are, hell, what majority of the non-mobile gamers on this planet, no matter the country, are, as homosexual men are at around 4-8% mark, trans male born are at around 0.1%.

(I never could quite follow the ethnic/racial origins of the characters of Japanese games, but let me skip that point as unimportant)

The problem of "always the same white dude" is, in other words, "the winner takes it all" problem, with whoever is in majority taking ALL of the pie, instead of the proportional share of it.

But the "the winner takes jack shit" is not a solution, "everyone gets part of the pie" is.
It is arguable, whether it should be proportional or not (e.g. if group X is Y% of the population, should we meet protagonists of type X Y% of times, or should the pie be split evenly between groups).
 
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Is people forgetting how Ellie grew up in the first TLOU?

She grew up killing and learning to survive.

I think that would make her strong enough to do what she does.
 
You call a scattered, disjointed band of a dozen wackjobs in a dystopian society an army?

Did you stretch before that enormous reach?

Its like people are searching for reasons to hate this and when they cant find one they invent new ones.
I replied to your sarcastic question about being realism. Maybe you misunderstood or....
I was talking about many games where the (male) character wins against an endless supply of enemies.
No one complained in the first game about one guy taking an army (because yes in the end is a fuck load of enemies to take down) down, no one complains about male soldiers killing armies. But the moment a girl does so it's unrealistic and now need realism in games? Wow.

What is not realistic is the stealth in this or any other game, she hid below the car and she could be seen by the enemy, but in order to push the script the enemy didn't see her. Then she entered the store and was moving behind the counter and the backpack/bow was well above the cover the counter provided. And then she moved through the bush with the enemy behind her and no one saw her? Any human with peripheral vision could see her and hear her.

But who cares? real stealth would make games impossible. Ellie lives in a post apocalyptic world, surely she is stronger than the average gamer.
 
I've lost your chain of thought.
Straight and male is who majority of non-mobile gamers are, what majority of americans/europeans (non-mobile gamers) are, what majority of Chinese are, what majority of Africans are, hell, what majority of the non-mobile gamers on this planet, no matter the country, are, as homosexual men are at around 4-8% mark, trans male born are at around 0.1%.

(I never could quite follow the ethnic/racial origins of the characters of Japanese games, but let me skip that point as unimportant)

The problem of "always the same white dude" is, in other words, "the winner takes it all" problem, with whoever is in majority taking ALL of the pie, instead of the proportional share of it.

But the "the winner takes jack shit" is not a solution, "everyone gets part of the pie" is.
It is arguable, whether it should be proportional or not (e.g. if group X is Y% of the population, should we meet protagonists of type X Y% of times, or should the pie be split evenly between groups).
Another important point is that the big developers do this for their marketing they promote this while with indy games which have such a huge and diverse pool f characters just do it. They do not promote that you play as a women, or black character they just do it and therefore it feels way more natural than the developer of Tomb Raider telling me over and over again how strong and independent Lara is.
 

Bill O'Rights

Seldom posts. Always delivers.
@everyone could we maybe move the discussion away from just focusing on TLoU2?

Another tangent to lead into would be the Gears franchise. Male dominated protagonist suddenly replaced by female protagonist. Of course we're flying a little blind because we don't yet know the story line, but did it need a change? Does it feel organic or reactionary to the outcry?
 
@everyone could we maybe move the discussion away from just focusing on TLoU2?

Another tangent to lead into would be the Gears franchise. Male dominated protagonist suddenly replaced by female protagonist. Of course we're flying a little blind because we don't yet know the story line, but did it need a change? Does it feel organic or reactionary to the outcry?
TLOU is just a great example how you do it right.

As for Gears I do not know much about it so I can not say if it feels forced. The trailer was totally fine in this regard and here you also have seen that she is troubled and not a I always do the right choice kind of character. So this one already is different then the usual ones IMO
 
Doesn't all of this conversation represent and legitimise a huge problem for the industry when something as simple as females being lead characters in video games can be contrived as reactionary?
 
These days it feels forced to me. As if developers are pushing an agenda and aren't really honest about "design choices". It might sound like i'm a misogynist but i didn't always feel that way. I never had an issue with Metroid having Samus, Tomb Raider having Lara, Silent Hill 3 having Heather, Portal having Chell, etc. These are some of my favorite games. But for some reason today it seems like people do it because they have to or because it's the new trend.
 
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Bill O'Rights

Seldom posts. Always delivers.
TLOU is just a great example how you do it right.

As for Gears I do not know much about it so I can not say if it feels forced. The trailer was totally fine in this regard and here you also have seen that she is troubled and not a I always do the right choice kind of character. So this one already is different then the usual ones IMO

While I'm not eliciting a viewpoint I largely agree which is why I want to place it out of context. I think the debate over TLoU is linked to the core point of 'did the kiss feel organic as part of the reveal (with no context), or did it feel like it was there to just say look what we did everyone'. Especially given the gameplay segment it segued into. Of course, it might be part of an important story beat. What if by kissing her, some part of the infection was transferred etc. What if it caused division between her and the male she was friendly with who later becomes an enemy because of this. There are a lot of unknowns. But in terms of the first game, Ellie was already a female support and it seems organic that she becomes the focus as the 'cure' and as Joel succumbs to age. But honestly, the whole ND and TLoU is such a special case it could probably be threaded out and cover a huge range of debates.