[E3] The rise of female characters - how organic does it feel

Some of it feels forced, especially BFV....and I feel it has all to do (as a business) with the possibility of tapping additional revenue, & not because "it's right", "wrong" or "modern".

Regarding some of the backlash, I think it's more to to do with women characters replacing male protagonists in franchises that have been always (as it make sense for those particular games) male driven, and why they feel the need to replace current ones instead of creating new games with female leads. Almost similar fashion to some rebooted movies.
 
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Some of it feels forced, especially BFV....and I feel it has all to do (as a business) with the possibility of tapping additional revenue, & not because "it's right", "wrong" or "modern".

Regarding some of the backlash, I think it's more to to do with women characters replacing male protagonists in franchises that have been always (as it make sense for those particular games) male driven, and why they feel the need to replace current ones instead of creating new games with female leads. Almost similar fashion to some rebooted movies.
Now that you mentioned this...

Is there any game or movie that originally had female leads and changed to male? I honestly can't think of a single one right now. Sure, it's not going to be as common since there are far more games/movies with male leads. But still. Can you imagine the backlash if this ever happened now? And i mean from the same people who are celebrating gender swaps from male to female.
 
@everyone could we maybe move the discussion away from just focusing on TLoU2?

Another tangent to lead into would be the Gears franchise. Male dominated protagonist suddenly replaced by female protagonist. Of course we're flying a little blind because we don't yet know the story line, but did it need a change? Does it feel organic or reactionary to the outcry?
Gears is absolutely forced, i.e. even misguided insofar as Kait in Gears 4 was utterly forgettable (she was one of the squadmates in an already bland cast which paled by comparison to the original trilogy). The fact Liam McIntyre (at least judging by his IMDB page) isn't in the sequel (he played JD Fenix, aka Marcus's son & was the main protagonist) also serves to decapitate all the momentum & (albeit little) character building done in Gears 4. Why? Jumping on the gender diversity bandwagon, that's all.

There's also the aesthetic reality of a female in Gears armor looking absolutely ridiculous (this was true in previous games as well). For what it's worth I always hated the fact the female Shepard in Mass Effect 2 & 3 wore bulky, ugly armors which looked ridiculous on her body type (a step back considering Mass Effect 1 at the time gave her feminine armors).

There's basically a time & place for everything & the new Gears misses the mark entirely. I wouldn't be surprised if it impacts the game's sales as well based upon the franchise's target audience.
 
The problem of "always the same white dude" is, in other words, "the winner takes it all" problem, with whoever is in majority taking ALL of the pie, instead of the proportional share of it.

But the "the winner takes jack shit" is not a solution, "everyone gets part of the pie" is.
It is arguable, whether it should be proportional or not (e.g. if group X is Y% of the population, should we meet protagonists of type X Y% of times, or should the pie be split evenly between groups).
One of the aims is to increase the size of the pie. Speaking entirely in terms of self interest, if I'm a developer and marketing tell me that making some changes to my game will increase my market share among a female audience, then the question comes down to whether or not that will increase or decrease my overall sales. Historically, some of the best selling games have cross-gender appeal - if you can appeal to a larger market, you can have higher potential sales. The current state of the pie, being majority male for desktop gaming, suggests that there is room for growth and increased market size.
 
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One of the aims is to increase the size of the pie. Speaking entirely in terms of self interest, if I'm a developer and marketing tell me that making some changes to my game will increase my market share among a female audience, then the question comes down to whether or not that will increase or decrease my overall sales. Historically, some of the best selling games have cross-gender appeal - if you can appeal to a larger market, you can have higher potential sales. The current state of the pie, being majority male for desktop gaming, suggests that there is room for growth and increased market size.
Business (at least good business) should also be based upon trends, preferences & gender related habits - which means traditionally speaking women in their majority aren't known to be superfans of shooting monsters in the face or cutting them to pieces with a chainsaw attached to a rifle. Do some women enjoy that? Yes, but the assumption a Gears game (for example) could somehow equalize the gender of its fanbase by introducing a female protagonist is a crock of sh*t imagined by semi-insane corporate suits.

It reminds me of that story a few years ago when a kindergarten teacher blocked boys from playing with legos because she was sick & tired of boys flocking to the building toys whilst girls played with dolls... as if there's something 'wrong' with natural gender based preferences! http://seattle.cbslocal.com/2015/11...her-bans-legos-for-boys-citing-gender-equity/

Arbitrarily throwing female leads into action shooter games to get girls into the genre (without giving boys the choice to play as a male lead) can be construed as a similar misguided attempt to play God via attempting to reverse natural gender habits.
 
Is there any game or movie that originally had female leads and changed to male? I honestly can't think of a single one right now. Sure, it's not going to be as common since there are far more games/movies with male leads. But still. Can you imagine the backlash if this ever happened now?
Welp, bolded part is addressing it, I think.

Would there be an outcry if Tomb Raider turns Indiana Jones? Chuckle.

The current state of the pie, being majority male for desktop gaming, suggests that there is room for growth and increased market size.
As a parent watching my daughter and son playing games, let me voice my humble opinion of there being only little room for it.
While both enjoy Rayman, it's games like Sims that daughter enjoys most, while son doesn't care at all.

Note that we have other industries, e.g. books, that do not perceive targeting audiences of particular gender as a problem.Regardless, even if number of players of "other gender" is small, it doesn't mean one should dismiss them. (both kids pick up "like me" avatars and are frustrated when such option is not available, to "no thanks, I don't want to play this" point)

What I am against, however, is the "flipping the switch" "diversity", with majority types disappearing altogether. That's not progress, but history repeating.
 
Now that you mentioned this...

Is there any game or movie that originally had female leads and changed to male? I honestly can't think of a single one right now. Sure, it's not going to be as common since there are far more games/movies with male leads. But still. Can you imagine the backlash if this ever happened now? And i mean from the same people who are celebrating gender swaps from male to female.
Not quite what you were asking, but the game Dinosaur Planet (which became Star Fox Adventures) was going to have Krystal as one of two main playable characters. Instead, in SFA she is only playable at the beginning, gets captured, and you play Fox for the rest of the game.
 
I loved it! About time, doesn't feel forced other than in ACOd, seeing as apparently both their stories are similar. Seems more like jumping the bandwagon to just say they have a female protag?

I say that in the sense that Tomb Raider, TLoU2 both have stories suited to those characters, AC does not.

But I'm all for it either way, its refreshing.
 
These days it feels forced to me. As if developers are pushing an agenda and aren't really honest about "design choices". It might sound like i'm a misogynist but i didn't always feel that way. I never had an issue with Metroid having Samus, Tomb Raider having Lara, Silent Hill 3 having Heather, Portal having Chell, etc. These are some of my favorite games. But for some reason today it seems like people do it because they have to or because it's the new trend.
That because Americans came up with all the fabricated Gamergate-drama.
Perceptions are clouded and people have become quick to jump the gun and accuse devs of forcing feminism upon us.
 
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While I'm not eliciting a viewpoint I largely agree which is why I want to place it out of context. I think the debate over TLoU is linked to the core point of 'did the kiss feel organic as part of the reveal (with no context), or did it feel like it was there to just say look what we did everyone'. Especially given the gameplay segment it segued into. Of course, it might be part of an important story beat. What if by kissing her, some part of the infection was transferred etc. What if it caused division between her and the male she was friendly with who later becomes an enemy because of this. There are a lot of unknowns. But in terms of the first game, Ellie was already a female support and it seems organic that she becomes the focus as the 'cure' and as Joel succumbs to age. But honestly, the whole ND and TLoU is such a special case it could probably be threaded out and cover a huge range of debates.
Since you mentioned it.

I personally think it perfectly fits because Naughty Dog did show how Ellie has changed drastically because of certain events that did/will happen.
In the first game she was more rebellious in the first scene of the trailer she was more quiet which most likely also has something to do with the relationship with Joel. You could see how she reacted when the guy talked about him. But she also seems to be more sh and reserved. She has changed much between these games and the kiss also shows this in my opinion.

And then something did happen her girlfriend etc died by these people and all she feels now is hate. Which also also one of the main themes of this game.
 
I have many issues with the 'introduction' of women in modern videogames or, in fact, in any modern media in general. My main gripes are:
  • Replacing the main protagonist in a franchise (even when said protagonist was iconic) just to put a woman in front. This never works well even when there is no gender swap involved (see cases such as non-Wayne Batman) but it's specially bad when the reason is purely political.
  • Giving the women Mary Sue characteristics in order to display them as inherently superior. Happens usually when the writer thinks hurting a woman or showing her as having any kind or defect is off-limits. This is a serious issue when said woman is the protagonist, who you'd guess would face dangers, challenges, and show some character development and grow. That is kind of difficult when you start being perfect by definition.
  • Writing all women as if they were men. There are massive differences between the way a woman and a man will tend to act, face problems or react to a situation. The same story should be completely different in tone and development when your protagonist is gender swapped, but that is not the case in a lot of modern media.
  • Limiting the portrayal of women to a small set of body types (which are typically unfeminine) and severely reducing their attractiveness to protect female viewers from some perceived insecurity. The protection of women at all costs begins with the fictional woman depicted in the media, but continues with the viewers, even for media which is not targeting them at all, and even if the reason is dubious or actually insulting.
When they do those kind of things, the introduction is anything but organic. At the end of the day it's all about the writer's intent. When the purpose of those women in media is just to fulfill an agenda (probably rooted in third-wave feminism or progressive left politics), that does no service to men or women alike. The end result is a bunch of bad stories which do nothing interesting because they are so focused on preaching, pandering and ego-stroking the writer.
 
This is one of those topics that you usually steer away from. Mainly because if you want to actually discuss them with some level of depth you have to cover a range of topics whcih produce exhaustive back and forths, with many points being made in bad faith. My overall viewpoint is that there is no real issue with the reaction of female characters in games. There is an issue with general toxicity and comments for online multiplayer. These comments range from sexist, homophobic/transphobic to plain racial slurs. These are two distinct issues. There is also an issue with creepy 'neckbeards' making sexually epxlicit and derogative comments to any identified female gamers. All these issues are seperate though. Lumping them into one big feminism debate is stupid.

I think the biggest indicator of the current climate can be traced back to the ridiculous Ghostbusters fiasco. Since then, the film is largely regarded to have fallen flat and has been received as middling to average in most cases. Note, just as ubiquity does not equal quality, commercial success does not equal quality or a good film either. So anyway, the trailer got a lot of dislikes and this provoked the main narrative that sexist and misogynistic film fans couln't handle females in their films. Now, from recollection I believe the prominnent 'proper' arguments were:

Tone of the film had been changed into some weird Eddie Murphy type of film;
It looked like a remake in some instances, certainly the library scene as one example;
The cast wasn't 'diverse', it was hand picked to be all female. In a short sense, uniformity in diversity bred conformity.

Now, the thing is these points were being brought up in response to using an established world and franchise. It was a political stunt. Now the target audience for this film was clearly different to the original's. I can't imagine the crossover between people who really liked the 80's films and something like Bridesmaids was too high. All the valid criticism was lost behind the narrative that these were facades and distractions as these people tried to obfuscate their clear agenda against women. Which brings me onto a recent film, Annihilation. Where could you possibly find a more evocative image than of ghostbusters than this:



And yet, where are all these problems and sexists that so manifested themselves during the Ghostbusters outrage? 14 million views, 57k likes and 5.7k dislikes. Surely this, an all female cast again would provoke the same response. It's the same issue at the end of the day? Oh, wait the metacritic can give you an inkling of why. It's because (as predicted and allured to) Ghostbusters lost its identity and was a poot film, whereas Annihilation was actually a decent film. And that doesn't even include films like Salt, Atomic Blonde and Lucy.

That's just to establish context and illustrate how creatve markets are using diversity as a political crutch to shut down any valid criticism of their product. And to be honest, given the virus like spread of social media comments and snarks, you can see why it's being leveraged.


Onto the videogame climate then. People in this thread have illustrated perfectly over the years how we have always had female characters in games. And this hasn't been an issue. No one has complained and it was largely left to the developers and/or publisher's to decide on who to cast. What was wrong was the way they were sexualised and this is the crux of the argument. It's a transition that is taking place but that doesn't mean all new characters have to be grounded in reality or be making a statement. I mean with each passing year we are getting more realistic female leads and no one is complaining about them. Honestly has there been any backlash against:

Aloy in HZ:D
Lara in TR (although ironically most of the white knights have a particular focus on her face changing for some reason. Why does it matter?)
Female enemies in Skyrim
Female enemies in Syndicate
Evie Frye Syndicate
Kassandra in AC:O
Chloe in Uncharted
Nadine in Uncharted
Female Shep
Emily from Dishonored
2B from Nier
Female characters in any number of RPG's

Has there been any arguments about actually playing as those characters? Now I'm sure in some little grotbag places of the internet there are a small minority but on the scale of what is being argued I just don't see it. At all. The truth is no one really cares if it's just there. It's a non issue.

The change from Lara Croft in 1996 to 2013 is indicative of what is really happening in the industry. It's an organic change that's happened in line and at the rate of maturity and diversity of attitudes. It's why new female protagonists now look like Aloy and Evie and not Bayonetta or Shadee. However, saying that if a developer or publisher decides that they want to have a character like Cindy or Quiet then they shouldn't have to make concessions to change their vision. There is room for both. Someone said the other day it's quite possible to have female characters that are aspirational and others that are for titillation. Having one doesn't belittle or demean the other.

I've saw a lot of Anita's stuff and she has a hit-miss ratio of roughly the same. I think the problem she has is that she is demonising the playerbase when her criticisms are mainly at the dev/publishers. I mean when I'm playing Tomb Raider or Uncharted:LL swinging round and shooting enemies, the last thing I'm looking at is how far up the screen her ass is. I don't get a choice of what I see playing these games. I sit down and am presented with what has been coded and created. I think she has played an enormous part in creating and manifesting this archetypal gamer who gets off while seeing an attractive female character (whcih is inherently a sexist viewpoint in itself). Which is ridiculous given the accessibility and ubiquity of actual pornographic content. Especially as the first real generation of gamers are now largely mature and are in fact welcoming the changes we're seeing.

When I see games like BF V, Overwatch and Gears introducing female characters I think 'great'. Then I think you've now created characters to entice female players to use in some of the most hostile game communities to these women. That's where you need to make changes, not throw a female model into a game and think you're changing the landscape of gaming. Because that change started years ago, is still in motion and you're behind the curve frankly. And the people putting them on platforms instead of forcing real change need to reassess their goals.

Anyway, typed enough and I actually have work :eek:
 
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I'm spending way tok much time in this thread. More thoughts.

The so-called rise of fem character is both organic and in-organic.

It seems more about forcing the sale of a product then representing women.

Women never need female avatars to be inspired. Same as men don't need male* avatars to be inspired. As people we all draw from the world around us.

* I'm amused my phone auto corrected "male" to "make". The whole world really is out to get us. :LOL:
 
I agree on the AC:Odyssey comment. It looks utterly ridiculous to see a petite, attractive woman fighting in armour in times when you had to be physically strong just to lift a sword or spear.
It's really immersion breaking.
You need to go and rewatch the footage, because she's anything but 'petite'.
She has the muscle definition of someone who exercises frequently, and she's taller than anyone who isn't a "soldier".
She looks like she could lift a spear better than most of y'all couch potatoes.
 
white gamers still havent accepted that video games isnt a white boys only club anymore . this is why brave activists like anita sarkeesian are so needed in this subculture . no one is trying to take your games aways we just want it to be open for everyone
 
You need to go and rewatch the footage, because she's anything but 'petite'.
She has the muscle definition of someone who exercises frequently, and she's taller than anyone who isn't a "soldier".
She looks like she could lift a spear better than most of y'all couch potatoes.
Of course, she's basically -in Anita's own words- a Ms. Male to Alexios. They didn't make the stereotype of warrior and rogue, they just mirrored the two completely.
 
white gamers still havent accepted that video games isnt a white boys only club anymore . this is why brave activists like anita sarkeesian are so needed in this subculture . no one is trying to take your games aways we just want it to be open for everyone
If Anita was brave, she'd learn how to actually become a programmer/developer (i.e. better herself) instead of being the crass online attack-dog for the radical Cultural Marxist left she is. There's zero skill or merit in what she does, i.e. none. Political extremists screaming their malcontent at the world & spewing bile aren't special, they're just annoying.

Video games were essentially pioneered by white guys & the Japanese (that's a fact), ergo don't act surprised when the entire foundations of the industry feature those two group in a predominant fashion. Screaming injustice merely reeks of ineptitude, i.e. an entitlement mindset in which cretins such as Anita demand a share of a cake they did nothing to earn. Women & non-whites want more protagonists reflecting their gender & race? I say get to work & build those games yourselves. There are no miracles in life & all I essentially hear from the rampant diversity crowd is a "we want what you've got, give it to us nowwwwwww!" - like a bank robber.

Although I can already hear a stampede of a pitchfork mob screaming "reeeee muh institutional racism & sexism keeps us back!". In 2018 that's seriously no excuse. The entire premise of forcing white male developers make games with female & people of color lead characters is essentially... not funny. Yet that's what Anita stands for.
 
Like TLOU2 violence (and lesbianism) demo, the rise of female characters seem odd and forced, sorta geeky and how the male developers perceive things should be. Sorta like the lame Agony game, just less crass.


I like it when female characters were just there and natural, like Jill and Claire.
 
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It starts with Battlefield V when EA introduced female character in the game, and now in last of us 2 they changed Joel
Dunno if they changed Joel, yet. I just hope he's not taking a total backseat. If they watered him down, I am not sure I will like it as much as the first. I liked them both as a team. I wouldn't mind if Ellie takes center stage, but I want my Joel game play too and I would like a fair amount of it as well, even being able to switch between the two, on the fly, would be very nice.
 
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Business (at least good business) should also be based upon trends, preferences & gender related habits - which means traditionally speaking women in their majority aren't known to be superfans of shooting monsters in the face or cutting them to pieces with a chainsaw attached to a rifle. Do some women enjoy that? Yes, but the assumption a Gears game (for example) could somehow equalize the gender of its fanbase by introducing a female protagonist is a crock of sh*t imagined by semi-insane corporate suits.
...
Arbitrarily throwing female leads into action shooter games to get girls into the genre (without giving boys the choice to play as a male lead) can be construed as a similar misguided attempt to play God via attempting to reverse natural gender habits.
I'm not sure I share a belief in natural gender habits. However, if women don't play action shooters my question would be to ask why, and if it is possible to design one that they would play, rather than just loose that potential market. The thing is, women do play action shooters. So the market for women who like action shooters might not be as big as a Sims game, but there is still a market that can be reached and, perhaps, expanded. Naturally, I don't want to design a game that looses sales to men in order to pick up smaller sales to women, but I'd be foolish not to try and make a game that would gain additional sales from one demographic if I don't have to sacrifice sales to another.

So if I make an action shooter, I need to ask if a female lead will cause me to loose significant sales from male gamers, and if in return it will gain at least as many from female gamers. From what I tend to see, very few sales are lost to male gamers from having a female lead. So I don't need to increase my sales to women by much to make up for any loss and justify the change.
 
If Anita was brave, she'd learn how to actually become a programmer/developer (i.e. better herself) instead of being the crass online attack-dog for the radical Cultural Marxist left she is. There's zero skill or merit in what she does, i.e. none. Political extremists screaming their malcontent at the world & spewing bile aren't special, they're just annoying.

Video games were essentially pioneered by white guys & the Japanese (that's a fact), ergo don't act surprised when the entire foundations of the industry feature those two group in a predominant fashion. Screaming injustice merely reeks of ineptitude, i.e. an entitlement mindset in which cretins such as Anita demand a share of a cake they did nothing to earn. Women & non-whites want more protagonists reflecting their gender & race? I say get to work & build those games yourselves. There are no miracles in life & all I essentially hear from the rampant diversity crowd is a "we want what you've got, give it to us nowwwwwww!" - like a bank robber.

Although I can already hear a stampede of a pitchfork mob screaming "reeeee muh institutional racism & sexism keeps us back!". In 2018 that's seriously no excuse. The entire premise of forcing white male developers make games with female & people of color lead characters is essentially... not funny. Yet that's what Anita stands for.
You are my fucking hero. Well said, Anita is evil, the SJWs ruining our industry are evil. Gaming has always been a Male dominated hobby for males. I don't go to the fashion industry and demand more representation. It's just numbers women. do. not. play.,games. Theres no sexism, it's just a fact women don't games and never will. Theres no reason to cater to them, none at all. It's unrealistic to play as a female and have her do the things a man can do. I won't be buying TLOU2 which is a shame because, I LOVED TLOU. I won't be buying BFV either because, I'm against the forcing of this shit.


Mod edit: Bear in mind, despite the sex ratio of male to female players in certain genre's, some males may actually want the option to play as a female character too. There is a differentiation there. Especially when looking at character sex ratio's in games such as WoW and Overwatch etc.
 
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It's unrealistic to play as a female and have her do the things a man can do.
Tell me more about things women can't possibly do that men can.
Unless it's extreme physical labour (like lifting something really heavy), women generally do just fine.
And again, you're playing a work of fiction, most things you've played in your life are barely realistic as is.

Sounds more like you feel a need to self insert yourself in the power fantasy, which hurts your masculinity when the protag is female.
Grow the hell up.
 
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I personally think it's cool playing as females and the avatar on screen really has no impact whatsoever on my opinion of any game and it never has. I believe this is the same for MOST gamers. I grew up with Metroid... I didn't freak out when I was a kid and realized for the first time Samus was a girl, I thought it was fucking awesome. This was 25+ years ago. The issue I have with any type of creative medium (and yes of course the creators have a right to do it) is the forcing in of political or religious ideologies and/or social pandering to an, often times, very loud and entitled vocal minority. Their right to do it, our right not to buy it. Actions speak louder than words... or in this case internet soap boxing.
 
Much of the criticism seems to be about developers “making a statement”. What is really meant is you don’t like the statement they’re making with their product.
I haven't been watching much of e3 so I can't comment much on the prevalence of what Keene's talking about, but I think you're right; just maybe not fully how you intend it.

If by "a statement they don't like" you mean a feminist or PC one, that's oversimplifying the issue. I think it's that people want "the statement", just like any other creative choice, to be in service of producing the best possible work and for any statement to be a product of personal passion, instead of one consisting of hamfistedly forced contrivances that embarrassingly and distractingly toe the line of cultural moralising trends at the expense of the work.

And regardless of the content of the particular statement, if it's one that's constantly pushed by or pandered to by those who are willing to prioritise the holy edicts over other considerations like artistic integrity and creative freedom, then some people aren't going to like seeing the results.
 
white gamers still havent accepted that video games isnt a white boys only club anymore . this is why brave activists like anita sarkeesian are so needed in this subculture . no one is trying to take your games aways we just want it to be open for everyone
Eww, this is a fucked up mentality you have. I've been playing video games with girls since I was 3 years old, starting with Phantasy Star for our SMS and Mario Bros with out neighbours. We then moved to a farm, our neighbours at our age (about 11) were all girls, and they played PlayStation like Spyro and that.

I know more girls who play games than guys. And for you to have that opinion is really nasty and condescending, and is also telling that you don't have any friends who are girls and share the same interests of you. Why do you think it is that girls don't play video games with you, judging by your posts I'd say you are a huge anime fan who doesn't spend alot of time outdoors, thus never learned to interact with anyone outside of your little bubble. Do you have positive interactions with women in the real world, where you don't hide behind a facade?
 
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white gamers still havent accepted that video games isnt a white boys only club anymore . this is why brave activists like anita sarkeesian are so needed in this subculture . no one is trying to take your games aways we just want it to be open for everyone
i blame Anita especially but also games “journalism “ for the current very toxic atmosphere in this industry. Her lies and very hostile character did not only not help talk about theses issues it made and still makes it often impossible to talk about this. And it did not help when journalists went against gamers.

Games were often bullied out of society and with gaming they created a very open subculture. The only thing that makes them aggressive is when you try to get in and also try to stigmatize everything they like. Instead of being part of something and encourage for more diversity they wen in very hostile and demanded that gaming has to change like they want and everything they did not like was suddenly outlawed.

It was a very imperialistic thinking.
 
You are my fucking hero. Well said, Anita is evil, the SJWs ruining our industry are evil. Gaming has always been a Male dominated hobby for males. I don't go to the fashion industry and demand more representation. It's just numbers women. do. not. play.,games. Theres no sexism, it's just a fact women don't games and never will. Theres no reason to cater to them, none at all. It's unrealistic to play as a female and have her do the things a man can do. I won't be buying TLOU2 which is a shame because, I LOVED TLOU. I won't be buying BFV either because, I'm against the forcing of this shit.


Mod edit: Bear in mind, despite the sex ratio of male to female players in certain genre's, some males may actually want the option to play as a female character too. There is a differentiation there. Especially when looking at character sex ratio's in games such as WoW and Overwatch etc.
The most ridiculous thing about this post is that usually the men in games are also doing things men can’t do. Games are a fantasy for everyone and the rules get bent for everyone. Unless this is an old school sim like Rainbow Six odds are you aren’t healing from a gun shot, leaping that high, climbing that shit after sprinting non stop, landing from that high of a jump, etc.
 
Kait in gears is awesome and im just excited to see where the story goes and all the main characters are important enough to be leads.

Now if they scrapped gears 5 and just did a reboot of and made marcus a women, id be pissed and never touch the series again.
 
it's just a fact women don't games and never will. Theres no reason to cater to them, none at all.
Actually you know what, this is probably the actual problem. In the past most women in games were sexualized in appearance. They were there but still catered to the male audience. Nowadays portrayal is becoming more realistic, less overtly catering to male audience, and that leaves people like the poster I quoted wondering why? And then becoming upset at the notion that they aren’t being catered to in genres or games they actually like. Which is why battlefield especially stings.
 
Gears is absolutely forced, i.e. even misguided insofar as Kait in Gears 4 was utterly forgettable (she was one of the squadmates in an already bland cast which paled by comparison to the original trilogy). The fact Liam McIntyre (at least judging by his IMDB page) isn't in the sequel (he played JD Fenix, aka Marcus's son & was the main protagonist) also serves to decapitate all the momentum & (albeit little) character building done in Gears 4. Why? Jumping on the gender diversity bandwagon, that's all.

There's also the aesthetic reality of a female in Gears armor looking absolutely ridiculous (this was true in previous games as well). For what it's worth I always hated the fact the female Shepard in Mass Effect 2 & 3 wore bulky, ugly armors which looked ridiculous on her body type (a step back considering Mass Effect 1 at the time gave her feminine armors).

There's basically a time & place for everything & the new Gears misses the mark entirely. I wouldn't be surprised if it impacts the game's sales as well based upon the franchise's target audience.
Jd was in the trailer, did you even watch it?
 
white gamers still havent accepted that video games isnt a white boys only club anymore . this is why brave activists like anita sarkeesian are so needed in this subculture . no one is trying to take your games aways we just want it to be open for everyone
Are you a troll from voat? You sound like one.
 
Remedy did it right. Their game was presented as having a protagonist which happens to be a woman, not as having a woman!!!!! which is the protagonist!!!!

Kassandra being a Spartan warrior sounds dumb to me, but I like Xena... Depends on the tone of the game, I suppose. I like the separate mo-cap. The guy seems funny and cocky, Kassandra is kind of bland.
 
Perhaps you would like to explain what she does that is not realistic that would also not apply to a male character?
Maybe killing thousands of people twice of her size with a shiv?

It fiction. It unrealistic, as I've already pointed out. My problem with this is "lack of realism" is thrown as a constant critique of Naughty Dog and other studios when the character is male, but when you point out the same issue when the character is female, people (like you) take that as if it's an insult, and not, you know fucking consistency.
 
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I am not sure if I agree with people using TLOU2 as an example of inorganic female leads. The reason I say this is because it shows her struggle and resort to other methods to fight because it showed her being overpowered. Also, it is also believable of her being the lead of the game given a big enough time skip(which the game clearly has done) which leaves room for mystery as to the disappearance of Joel(the real villain of the first game).

Many games do not have these forced problems because they handle things so well. Everyone can rattle off the names cause there are many and those many titles are also successful. Clearly these are indicators of the problem that many people are trying to articulate but are unable to. Assassins creed Odyssey is in a weird place because it is not so much that the gender feels as forced(it feels less forced than other games), it just should be another IP all together. Just weird to call it assassins creed when there is no sign of assassinations or apollo creeds around.
 
I am not sure if I agree with people using TLOU2 as an example of inorganic female leads. The reason I say this is because it shows her struggle and resort to other methods to fight because it showed her being overpowered. Also, it is also believable of her being the lead of the game given a big enough time skip(which the game clearly has done) which leaves room for mystery as to the disappearance of Joel(the real villain of the first game).
I don't think Joel dissapeared. In that trailer that guy talked about Ellie's "old man" giving him hard time over the potrols. I think they were talking about Jeol at that moment.
 
white gamers still havent accepted that video games isnt a white boys only club anymore . this is why brave activists like anita sarkeesian are so needed in this subculture . no one is trying to take your games aways we just want it to be open for everyone
Well that's not true. Anyone who remembers Kotaku vs Dragon Crown can say that the primary goal of those activists is erasing games they don't approve from existence.
 
Actually you know what, this is probably the actual problem. In the past most women in games were sexualized in appearance. They were there but still catered to the male audience. Nowadays portrayal is becoming more realistic, less overtly catering to male audience, and that leaves people like the poster I quoted wondering why? And then becoming upset at the notion that they aren’t being catered to in genres or games they actually like. Which is why battlefield especially stings.
I kind of agree with your general sentiments to an extent. I would probably characterize it more as "some guys" just don't want and refuse to play as female characters, as opposed to them wondering why they aren't being catered to. But I agree with the notion that "some guys" just lash out when their desires are not being catered to. I don't think these guys represent a large segment of gamers though.

On Battlefield in particular however, I think you're reaching by including that as an example. It is focused on a specific war where women were not typically fighting in the front lines. Clearly the game is not going to be as realistic as some people expected at first. I have no doubt that the game takes ample other liberties with respect to historical accuracy, but by and large most people won't pick up on those like something this blatantly obvious. In other words, I think people without any sexist bones in their body could take issue with the design approach, and argue its not fair to lump them in with people who would object to including women even if the game was based on modern or future wars.
 
To be fair, this issue is everywhere in media, not just games. In TV and movies you see super badass 5'7" 115lb chicks beating the living shit out of 6'1" 220lb men with ease in hand to hand combat, and I don't mean dad bod bums; often muscle bound studs.

I can usually suspend my disbelief enough for this to be 'okay'. But Nadine was definitely pushing it.
I don't know, my taekwondo instructor is a lady and she is utterly terrifying when she wants to be, she is super tiny and easily destroys far larger opponents. So it definitely does happen.

She is awesome!
 
The most ridiculous thing about this post is that usually the men in games are also doing things men can’t do. Games are a fantasy for everyone and the rules get bent for everyone. Unless this is an old school sim like Rainbow Six odds are you aren’t healing from a gun shot, leaping that high, climbing that shit after sprinting non stop, landing from that high of a jump, etc.

Again... there is a difference between realism and authenticity. Yes, you auto heal from gunshots in videogames.... because you know... it wouldn't be very fun if you just died after getting one shotted all the time.
 
Remedy did it right. Their game was presented as having a protagonist which happens to be a woman, not as having a woman!!!!! which is the protagonist!!!!

Kassandra being a Spartan warrior sounds dumb to me, but I like Xena... Depends on the tone of the game, I suppose. I like the separate mo-cap. The guy seems funny and cocky, Kassandra is kind of bland.

I like Xena as well, but at least her ability to wipe out hordes of soldiers explained... It is clear throughout the series that she has the favour of Ares.
 
In case it wasn't obvious, I think Ellie makes for a natural protagonist for TLoU2. I do hope that she is done right (which I think she will be), she should play to her strengths (skill, quickness, determination = yes, physically overpowering = no).

It did not feel forced that she is the protagonist. What DID feel forced was the lesbian kiss. Watch any other E3 or event trailer from ND, there are zero Nate + Elena kissing moments. That feels like virtue signaling to me. ND didn't have to do that, but it made the whole thing come across as them trying to be "woke".
 
There's so much agenda pushing I don't know anymore.

At this point I wait to see if I like the protagonist if it's female before I decide to purchase it. If it's a japanese game with a female protagonist however, I have no qualms whatsoever I'll buy the Bayonettas, the Metroids and Bloodstaineds etc.

At this point in time I'm also going to just assume that female western protagonists are lesbians because there's no such thing as two girls being just close friends/comrades - or at least that's the impression I'm getting.
 
I kind of agree with your general sentiments to an extent. I would probably characterize it more as "some guys" just don't want and refuse to play as female characters, as opposed to them wondering why they aren't being catered to. But I agree with the notion that "some guys" just lash out when their desires are not being catered to. I don't think these guys represent a large segment of gamers though.

On Battlefield in particular however, I think you're reaching by including that as an example. It is focused on a specific war where women were not typically fighting in the front lines. Clearly the game is not going to be as realistic as some people expected at first. I have no doubt that the game takes ample other liberties with respect to historical accuracy, but by and large most people won't pick up on those like something this blatantly obvious. In other words, I think people without any sexist bones in their body could take issue with the design approach, and argue its not fair to lump them in with people who would object to including women even if the game was based on modern or future wars.
Look at my quoted post though. Do you think that anger is due to historical inaccuracy. Perhaps there is a group that is purely butthurt that this isn’t the rainbow six of world war 2. But I think most of it is that it seems like “pandering” or promoting themes they don’t think should be promoted and they lash out. Especially from those that are vocally the loudest.

Like the lesbian kiss in Last of Us. How is this pandering? They already introduced Ellie as a lesbian in the first game dlc, and now that she is older, you could expect naughty dogs storytelling side would explore some of those topics. Especially after uncharted 4 and the low key Drake / Elena moments. I don’t know how you can call it pandering at all. Instead it is naughty dog trying to elevate their storytelling game through some complex topics. Sure most games don’t do it, but most games can’t do it all because they don’t have the same quality writers, facial tech etc
 
So was the number of women featured in major franchises just a coincidence this E3? I haven't been following every game, but the only one that seems to be getting a lot of anger online is BFV.
 
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